Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,487 comments
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%

  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%

  • No way!

    Votes: 1,051 51.5%
  • Total voters
    2,042
We associate good with light and evil with darkness because its been conventional to do so since the dawn of civilization in virtually every culture. Whether we are speaking in terms of religion/mythology as we are here, or in philosophy, metaphysics, psychology, anthropology, or even classic and modern literature, the usage is universal.


From Wikipedia:

The contrast of white and black (light and darkness, day and night) has a long tradition of metaphorical usage, traceable to the Ancient Near East, and explicitly in the Pythagorean Table of Opposites. In Western culture as well as in Confucianism, the contrast symbolizes the moral dichotomy of good and evil.

 
mistersafeway
Exactly.

*finds one of the oldest bibles ever*

*decides that 616 doesn't sound neat enough*

*Has cultural descendants who claim the bible is the literal, unaltered word of a god*
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You have to admit that it brings in the punters though. Iron Maiden did the same thing after their producer Martin Birch's car crashed into a vanload of nuns when making their third album.

Apocrypha suggests that the repair bill came to something like £662.23 and the canny producer asked the garage to sell him a petrol cap for £4.43 to make the difference up to the magic number.
 
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Sometimes I wonder about faith. How can this, for example be explained by us Christians:

"Significant quantities" of human remains have been discovered at the site of a former mother and baby home in County Galway.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39151218
https://www.thesun.ie/news/686069/w...-tuam-mother-and-baby-home-went-on-unchecked/

We may say it's not representative, but when there is the approval of such atrocities how can we look at other people or other faiths and claim to have the answer.
 
DLR_Mysterion
Sometimes I wonder about faith. How can this, for example be explained by us Christians:



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39151218
https://www.thesun.ie/news/686069/w...-tuam-mother-and-baby-home-went-on-unchecked/

We may say it's not representative, but when there is the approval of such atrocities how can we look at other people or other faiths and claim to have the answer.
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As a non-Christian, I see that as what it is: as you said, not representative of the larger population. Absolute atrocities carried out by a tiny, extreme portion of a much larger group — which, I'd like to think, largely condemns such terrible acts. It's almost as if there's a modern-day parallel here.

A lot of heinous things have been done over the years in the name of religion, across the spectrum. A lot of non-religious people like to point to that as a primary reason they're against religion, and while I agree with the logic, I in no way hold it over any religious folks I do know, and wouldn't suggest they give up their beliefs because of it. So long as these beliefs do not negatively impact others' lives, I'm not too concerned with whether folks believe in an all-powerful deity or not.
 
I was trying to figure out what it would take to get me to believe in a religion. Let's take Christianity as an example (because it's easy).

What if Jesus came to earth today, was killed, and resurrected. Let's say he does it again in a lab surrounded by scientists who prove that it happened. Let's say he walks on water in a controlled experiment. He cures cancer with the touch of a hand. He walks the Earth preaching and turning water into wine and making feasts out of thin air. He attests that everything in the bible is 100% correct, and gives details that lead to the excavation of religious artifacts. He gets attacked and the hand of God appears in the sky and strikes down his enemies with bolts of lightning.

Let's say all of that happened.

I would say "he's probably an alien with advanced technology choosing to masquerade under one of our religions in hopes of enslaving us". It would seem a more likely explanation to me than the "creator" myth.
 
Danoff
I was trying to figure out what it would take to get me to believe in a religion. Let's take Christianity as an example (because it's easy).

What if Jesus came to earth today, was killed, and resurrected. Let's say he does it again in a lab surrounded by scientists who prove that it happened. Let's say he walks on water in a controlled experiment. He cures cancer with the touch of a hand. He walks the Earth preaching and turning water into wine and making feasts out of thin air. He attests that everything in the bible is 100% correct, and gives details that lead to the excavation of religious artifacts. He gets attacked and the hand of God appears in the sky and strikes down his enemies with bolts of lightning.

Let's say all of that happened.

I would say "he's probably an alien with advanced technology choosing to masquerade under one of our religions in hopes of enslaving us". It would seem a more likely explanation to me than the "creator" myth.
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...:lol:

Oh, ye of little faith.

While reading the second paragraph, I had this line of thinking going - where all of those scientists-witnessed events occur and they are captured, scrutinized and studied ad nauseam, until it's all verified to the nth degree - but the humanity will always produce self-proclaimed "experts" who knows everything about everything else and these people will denounce all the fact-checked findings vehemently.

Because those findings don't line up with their own knowledge bases. Or maybe they will find this event a golden ticket for a ride to the big leagues. To the proverbial lands of fame and fortune. To become a figure important enough to leave the name behind in the history books by doing something... important. Whatever.

Then I read the last paragraph and thought, oh yeah, there you go. :lol:

I also don't believe in the creator this and creator that but I'm a hopeless romantic - the world of gaming, fantasy and wishful thinking would be a lot poorer without the presences of deities, whether imagined or not.
 
Danoff
He attests that everything in the bible is 100% correct, and gives details that lead to the excavation of religious artifacts.
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Given the contradictions between the gospels alone let alone the rest of this holy book, I'd think that being able to resolve them all was certainly evidence of a power beyond my understanding, divine or otherwise.
 
JKgo
I also don't believe in the creator this and creator that but I'm a hopeless romantic - the world of gaming, fantasy and wishful thinking would be a lot poorer without the presences of deities, whether imagined or not.
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That's a good point... and it makes one consider how easy it is to explain away a whole complicated backstory by just making up super-beings who took care of it all :D
 
Danoff
I was trying to figure out what it would take to get me to believe in a religion. Let's take Christianity as an example (because it's easy).

What if Jesus came to earth today, was killed, and resurrected. Let's say he does it again in a lab surrounded by scientists who prove that it happened. Let's say he walks on water in a controlled experiment. He cures cancer with the touch of a hand. He walks the Earth preaching and turning water into wine and making feasts out of thin air. He attests that everything in the bible is 100% correct, and gives details that lead to the excavation of religious artifacts. He gets attacked and the hand of God appears in the sky and strikes down his enemies with bolts of lightning.

Let's say all of that happened.

I would say "he's probably an alien with advanced technology choosing to masquerade under one of our religions in hopes of enslaving us". It would seem a more likely explanation to me than the "creator" myth.
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But with Christianity, and I'm sure all religions, there will always be doubt. In your case it is Creation. That's what having faith is.
 
mistersafeway
Quick test: do you believe all religions are true? If no, then there's doubt with more religions than just Christianity, especially because not believing is the default position. And my pet unicorn agrees. :sly:
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Real as in created by God? No, but I can understand their appeal
 
TenEightyOne
Tabula rasa is the default position - very early beliefs are imbued by our societal context. "Not believing" is far from the default position, that's a plus and a minus for groups of humans.
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Scientifically, the null hypothesis is the default.
Socially, the default is whatever you happen to be taught before you're old enough to think critically.
Biologically, not thinking about these things at all is the default. What for human need smart thinks? Whacky stick is good maker.
 
Danoff
I was trying to figure out what it would take to get me to believe in a religion. Let's take Christianity as an example (because it's easy).

What if Jesus came to earth today, was killed, and resurrected. Let's say he does it again in a lab surrounded by scientists who prove that it happened. Let's say he walks on water in a controlled experiment. He cures cancer with the touch of a hand. He walks the Earth preaching and turning water into wine and making feasts out of thin air. He attests that everything in the bible is 100% correct, and gives details that lead to the excavation of religious artifacts. He gets attacked and the hand of God appears in the sky and strikes down his enemies with bolts of lightning.

Let's say all of that happened.

I would say "he's probably an alien with advanced technology choosing to masquerade under one of our religions in hopes of enslaving us". It would seem a more likely explanation to me than the "creator" myth.
Click to expand...

Even if that was true and verifiable, I would have no respect for him/it/schklim. All those powers cannot overturn the suffering in his/its/schklis name which went on in between 33 AD and whenever this provable return happens. Not stepping in at any point.

A lot of people do ask, what would it take to believe in god? The usual answer is "evidence". If there was evidence, if god came down in person and had a universal proclamation, then I wouldn't have to believe in god anyway. I would accept his existence in that case, sure; it would be like denying gravity or that London exists.

But that doesn't mean I would automatically be bowing in submission or adulation.
 
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TenEightyOne
"Not believing" is far from the default position
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How are we defining not believing? See, I don't mean it as in disbelief, more just not actually believing something is true, which is how you feel about everything until somebody tells you about it or you think of it independently. I didn't have any opinion on quantum gardening* until I just made it up**, the same is true of babies or people who just haven't been exposed to any religion yet.

*How anal would you have to be to measure your grass that closely? :lol:

**I hope. According to google, no, I did not. :eek:
 
Liquid
A lot of people do ask, what would it take to believe in god? The usual answer is "evidence". If there was evidence, if god came down in person and had a universal proclamation, then I wouldn't have to believe in god anyway. I would accept his existence in that case, sure; it would be like denying gravity or that London exists.
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But this is my point - that even with nearly unlimited powers it would be hard to prove that you created the universe. So I have trouble even conceiving of evidence that would be enough to justify belief in the creation myth. Evidence of advanced technology, or "super powers" as they might look to us, wouldn't cut it. A few miracles is nothing but proof that you can perform miracles.

What I'm explaining here is just how incredibly far away I am from believing in God. Here are the steps, as they apply to Christianity, each step is required before the next step:

1) Proof that Jesus existed
2) Proof that Jesus was anything but human
3) Proof that Jesus even agreed with the bible as it is currently written
4) Proof that some sort of supreme being (we'll call it God) existed
4) Proof that Jesus spoke for that supreme being
5) Proof that Jesus agreed that the bible as it is currently written, specifically the new testament, corresponds to the word/teachings of the supreme being
6) Proof that the supreme being is telling the truth through the bible
6a) Proof that the supreme being created the universe
6b) Proof that an afterlife exists for humanity
6c) Proof that what you do during your life affects your afterlife experience

I need all of that, every single step, to buy Christianity. I'm amazed that anyone buys it without even a single one. Even with vast powers it would be difficult to establish some of those items - especially in light of some of the facts that you point out... the atrocities that this supreme being has sat idly by and watched, and atrocities which are advocated by that same supreme being in the OT.
 
Danoff
But this is my point - that even with nearly unlimited powers it would be hard to prove that you created the universe. So I have trouble even conceiving of evidence that would be enough to justify belief in the creation myth. Evidence of advanced technology, or "super powers" as they might look to us, wouldn't cut it. A few miracles is nothing but proof that you can perform miracles.

What I'm explaining here is just how incredibly far away I am from believing in God. Here are the steps, as they apply to Christianity, each step is required before the next step:

1) Proof that Jesus existed
2) Proof that Jesus was anything but human
3) Proof that Jesus even agreed with the bible as it is currently written
4) Proof that some sort of supreme being (we'll call it God) existed
4) Proof that Jesus spoke for that supreme being
5) Proof that Jesus agreed that the bible as it is currently written, specifically the new testament, corresponds to the word/teachings of the supreme being
6) Proof that the supreme being is telling the truth through the bible
6a) Proof that the supreme being created the universe
6b) Proof that an afterlife exists for humanity
6c) Proof that what you do during your life affects your afterlife experience

I need all of that, every single step, to buy Christianity. I'm amazed that anyone buys it without even a single one. Even with vast powers it would be difficult to establish some of those items - especially in light of some of the facts that you point out... the atrocities that this supreme being has sat idly by and watched, and atrocities which are advocated by that same supreme being in the OT.
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Jesus came and proved many of those things and He was still put to death. Belief in Him requires a sacriface many are unwilling to make and it was almost impossible for even His disciples to believe that He was truly the messiah.
 
DLR_Mysterion
Jesus came and proved many of those things and He was still put to death.
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Even if Jesus did all of the things the bible claims, it gets you to maaaybe number 2 on the list if you were alive at the time and saw it. But all we have are stories that it happened, so we can't even crack number 1.

DLR_Mysterion
Belief in Him requires a sacriface many are unwilling to make
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The specific sacrifice required is to suspend critical thinking and rational thought. So maybe it makes perfect sense that people are unwilling to make it.
 
DLR_Mysterion
Jesus came and proved many of those things and He was still put to death.
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No he didn't. Referring to @Danoff's list:

Danoff
1) Proof that Jesus existed
2) Proof that Jesus was anything but human
3) Proof that Jesus even agreed with the bible as it is currently written
4) Proof that some sort of supreme being (we'll call it God) existed
4) Proof that Jesus spoke for that supreme being
5) Proof that Jesus agreed that the bible as it is currently written, specifically the new testament, corresponds to the word/teachings of the supreme being
6) Proof that the supreme being is telling the truth through the bible
6a) Proof that the supreme being created the universe
6b) Proof that an afterlife exists for humanity
6c) Proof that what you do during your life affects your afterlife experience
Click to expand...

If he existed (big if) then he proved #1 by default.

Providing that If is true... he offered no proof that he wasn't human (2), he disagreed with the Jewish bible (3), didn't prove that God existed (4) or that he genuinely spoke for him (5), couldn't agree with the New Testament because it hadn't been written by the other fellas (6), couldn't satisfy (6a) as he couldn't satisfy (4), and offered no proof of afterlife (6b) and thereby the effects of actual-life on it (6c).

But yeah, apart from that... :)
 
DLR_Mysterion
Before continuing, why is it a "big if" He existed?

I thought it's almost universally accepted He existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus
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From the article: "There is no physical or archaeological evidence for Jesus. All sources are documentary, mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted."
 
DLR_Mysterion
I thought it's almost universally accepted He existed
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Then you were mistaken, people who actually study religion are most certainly not all convinced of the existence of Jesus, even as a normal person.

Danoff
From the article: "There is no physical or archaeological evidence for Jesus. All sources are documentary, mainly Christian writings, such as the gospels and the purported letters of the apostles. The authenticity and reliability of these sources has been questioned by many scholars, and few events mentioned in the gospels are universally accepted."
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Thanks for that. 👍

I was preparing a rather longer reply than the above because I assumed that article had been broken since I last read it, apparently somebody just hadn't read it. :rolleyes:
 
Jesus probably existed, he is referenced in some Roman and Jewish historical texts. Also, if you compare it to modern times with the number of people who spout all sorts of religious non-sense or even cult leaders, it's not really that hard to believe that someone like that existed in ancient times and was ultimately put to death over it.

The miracles were most definitely exaggerated and were probably on the same level as modern day faith healers. Some of the more well known stories of Jesus probably had a logical explanation too, take the one where there's thousands of people but only a couple loaves of breads and some fish, but it some how fed everyone. A more logical explanation is that as the basket was passed around people added more to it than they took because you know sharing. The water to wine one was probably an ancient equivalent of a beer run and Jesus just happened to send servants off to fetch some more party juice.

As stories of Jesus were passed down, they more than likely were embellished and with some sprinkling of Egyptian, Greek, and Roman mythology for effect, you ended up with the New Testament of the Bible.
 

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