Do you believe in God?

[Jim Prower]

So I'm a brainwashed moron just because I believe in God? Is that what you're trying to say to me? Again, you're pointlessly villianizing. Why haven't you tried to address that? Sure, you could pick apart the bible, that's easy to do. But I still wouldn't care. In fact, a lot of what I'm reading sounds like the same kind of propoganda you claim the Bible is. The people in churches are the nicest I've ever met. They're friends, neighbors...they have their faults, yes, but all you've done is proven that anything fairly benign can be spun to sound evil.

See how this can go back and forth? Seriously, this is why these conversations are pointless. No-one budges, no-one is converted, and even if someone is, no-one cares. It's an endless loop, a trap for all who get into it. I'm getting out.

 

[Tic Tach]

So I'm a brainwashed moron just because I believe in God? Is that what you're trying to say to me?

Hmmm, I think that what I tried to say to you was what I typed in my last post.

Again, you're pointlessly villianizing.

I fail to see how that be so. But your response is not unusual.

Sure, you could pick apart the bible, that's easy to do. But I still wouldn't care.

Why not?

In science it often happens that scientists say, “You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken”, and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it, it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that has happened in politics or religion. (Carl Sagan)

In fact, a lot of what I'm reading sounds like the same kind of propoganda you claim the Bible is.

I suggest that open, honest, critical, rational inquiry into the supernatural claims of religion in general and christianity in particular is the direct opposite of the time-worn tools of fear, guilt & shame that religion has wielded.

Seriously, this is why these conversations are pointless. No-one budges, no-one is converted....

I don't concur. I budged. Many others have jettisoned the false beliefs which were inculcated to them, and many through forum discussions. Here's one site in particular.

....and even if someone is, no-one cares.

How do you know that? Besides, does the number of people "caring" make the issue for that individual less important?

 

[Jim Prower]

Okay, fine, you got me. I'm scared to open my mind to deny god's existence. All I'm asking is this: Who am I hurting? Who does it hurt to believe in fairy tales?

I'm not cut out for this kind of debate, I guess. I'm going to leave, now.

 

[Danoff]

ah, you edited.

 

[Tic Tach]

Okay, fine, you got me. I'm scared to open my mind to deny god's existence. All I'm asking is this: Who am I hurting? Who does it hurt to believe in fairy tales?

How about, yourself. Don't you matter to you?

Before you leave, save these as a favourite; lots of good reading:

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/god-toc.htm

I'm not cut out for this kind of debate, I guess. I'm going to leave, now.

Well, ok. Life is a series of choices. But hey, this reminds me of another quote:

Having a debate with a creationist is equivalent to playing a chess match against a pigeon who knocks over all the pieces, takes a crap on the board and flies back to his flock and claims victory.

 

[Ardius]

That sounds like an enticing idea, but when one considers that some religions have sometimes killed those "infidels" who aren't members of their own particular brand of mental illness (aka faith), how does one separate those beliefs and ideas from being the cause of the wars/killing?

I was rather getting into the dangerous territory of religion merely being attached to the mind, not reality. As far as I see it, most wars which were claimed as holy wars were more likely to have been about something more logical such as over money (the crusader mercenaries...), land or whatever. If you consider religion as a political party, then yes, they are a cause. But as a way of thinking, I don't think many people genuinely believe killing followers of another religion is sensible apart from the insane.

Though I do realise more people way back when were "insane"...kind of getting into why I said "if religion wasn't such a powerful aid for people to live their lives". Some people feed on the bible's (or whichever book) way of teaching them rules to live their life happily. As such, it can be easy for them to connect the dots between why they want to wage war (to what they were taught by religion). Also, science in a broad, popular sense did not exist back then as an alternative way of thinking.

It would be difficult for you or I to believe as we do now, back then, as religion provided pretty much all the answers to what the stars are, etc.

Therefore - I put forward not that religion is a cause of war itself, but rather humanity itself. To say "think about how much blood has been spilled over religion" paints the wrong picture in my opinion. Religion can be mis-used just as anything else can. Power is the cause of war, and though religion itself dabbled/dabbles with it, I don't agree that it should be displayed in only a negative light.

 

[Dotini]

If religion is the cause of war, then the atheistic Soviet Union was the most peaceful place ever, right? Actually, the dogmatic materialist is just as likely to deprive you of life, limb or property as the believer in souls.

 

[niky]

Therefore - I put forward not that religion is a cause of war itself, but rather humanity itself. To say "think about how much blood has been spilled over religion" paints the wrong picture in my opinion. Religion can be mis-used just as anything else can. Power is the cause of war, and though religion itself dabbled/dabbles with it, I don't agree that it should be displayed in only a negative light.

This.

Humanity, is, by nature, illogical, territorial and hostile towards outsiders. Religion is just an outlet through which humanity can express these tendencies.

Religion is also an outlet through which mankind can express other tendencies: self-sacrifice, discipline, philanthropy, etcetera.

That's not to say that Religion doesn't inspire some of these tendencies itself, but for every Torquemada inspired by religion, there is a Mother Theresa (though her medical practices did seem quite inquisitorial to some).

While many otherwise gentle people may have been swayed towards violence by religion, many otherwise violent people have been reformed by it.

 

[Vince_Fiero]

Ithe atheistic Soviet Union

I believe this was more a principle then a practice, you should read how much places of worship were closed, reopened, closed, ...

It is clear that the Bolshevik top all had very deep religious backgrounds, most of them went to institutions close to Jesuit schools (or their Jewish equivalent). They rejected these when they were at power.

For me a government decision can take the people out of the church, I do not believe it took the church out of the people.

But this seems irrelevant for this thread.


One thing that I find wrong is religious leaders encouraging hatred and war, I do not believe generally this is in line with their teaching (I still want to see examples of Mozes, Jesus, Muhammad or Buddha assembling a posse to go and force justice). But then there is a principle of self defense and a lot of religions feel threatened so want to defend themselves.

 

[lbsf1]

Christianity one womens lie about an affair that got quite out of hand.

However on a serious note if people believe in christianity then why can't they teach their children it. In school we have to learn about the big bang theory because the people in charge believe in it. Pretty much the same thing.

 

[Northstar]

Christianity one womens lie about an affair that got quite out of hand.

However on a serious note if people believe in christianity then why can't they teach their children it. In school we have to learn about the big bang theory because the people in charge believe in it. Pretty much the same thing.

There is also scientific proof backing the big bang theory, which is something Christianity cannot say.

That is for a different thread though.

 

[Tic Tach]

If you consider religion as a political party, then yes, they are a cause.

Well if we look at how Christianity has intentionally woven it's way into the fabric of American politics, and the fact that Islam is inherently also a political movement (not just a religion), then does that change you view?

But as a way of thinking, I don't think many people genuinely believe killing followers of another religion is sensible apart from the insane.

Let's consider the men who flew planes into the twin towers. They were not insane, they were not poverty stricken, they were not angered refugees; no, they were educated adults, who, because of what they believed about reality and the afterlife and their eternal reward complete with 72 virgins, made doing what they did a reasonable thing. (I'd like to see the look on their faces though in "paradise" when Allah says: "No, that was a mis-print, you get a 72 year old virgin").

It would be difficult for you or I to believe as we do now, back then, as religion provided pretty much all the answers to what the stars are, etc.

Agreed. And not only that, one would likely be tortured in a most painful & horrific way if declaring one's self a non-believer.

Therefore - I put forward not that religion is a cause of war itself, but rather humanity itself.

That's the equation I just don't understand. That's like saying: "Starvation is not the cause hunger, it's humanity itself." Of course we wouldn't have wars if humanity vanished, but there are things which are the source of wars, and religion is and has been one of them (certainly not the only thing though)

.......I don't agree that it [religion] should be displayed in only a negative light.

Agreed. But to ignore the violent & bloody history, I suggest, one does at their peril.

If religion is the cause of war, then the atheistic Soviet Union was the most peaceful place ever, right? Actually, the dogmatic materialist is just as likely to deprive you of life, limb or property as the believer in souls.

Please watch:

http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector?gl=CA&hl=en#p/u/13/LZr-JZYctvA

....if people believe in christianity then why can't they teach their children it. In school we have to learn about the big bang theory because the people in charge believe in it. Pretty much the same thing.

Pretty much the same thing?

So how would you feel if your child was taught astrology instead of astronomy; the "stork theory" instead of human reproduction, or that the holocaust never happened, in history class? After all, some people believe it. Pretty much the same thing!

 

[Jay.]

I've never been religious, so no I don't believe in god.

This post isn't meant to offend anyone, so I apologise beforehand if it does.

Christianity and the bible state that it is wrong to have relations with the spouse of another. If this is true then I feel sorry for Joseph. Jesus is supposed to be the son of god, which would mean Mary is a cheating tramp who had a one night stand with the guy upstairs!

The whole bible thing just seem hypocritical to me. SO much can be explained by physics and we've barely touched the surface of the realms beyond the universe. Yet most of what we know through physics has been proven with facts. - dinosaurs... evolution... time and space. The bible doesn't mention a word about dinosaurs, but we know they existed. What would you rather your children learn about in school?

 

[Alex p.]

Uh, okays I give it a shot. I really wanted to post here for a long time but never did because this topic is so controversial. Anyways, my opinion is that God does exist indeed. How do I come to such a conclusion? Well, I'll make it short. 1.the huge amount of religious books and texts thousands years old(controversial I know)/2.I believe for certain reasons in reincarnation(soul-afterlife, the movie I posted below shows why, it's great, please give it a shot-also controversial yes)/3.an experience I had, but not like to talk about to the "ordinary" person/4.big amount of reports of out of body experiences-coupled with "religious" experiences(yes also controversial) and finally, the most important reason for me to believe in God is the feeling of being connected to someone or sth. The feeling you get when you pray or just think thoroughly about this topic. I truly believe that most people feel that special feeling. Why do those, who do not believe in God do not feel it you may ask? I guess they are sort of "dissconected" from God or the Creator or the "source", if you want so. Well, all in all I am personaly convinced that "God", whatever "he" may be, does exist.



As I already said, give this vid a chance.👍

(there's a second part)

 

[Joey D]

I have seriously begun to question my Atheistic leanings of Agnosticism and I am beginning to think that there might be a supernatural being out there, somewhere. I still considering myself Agnostic though, but I feel that I am shifting my beliefs from one side of the spectrum to the other. I think I will require more self reflection on this though.

 

[PAPPACLART]

I would really like to think that we had a divine creator, but we really are not important or special enough in the grand scheme of things!!






1. Creationists make it sound like a ‘theory’ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night — Isaac Asimov

2. I don’t believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life. — Andrew Carnegie

3. All thinking men are atheists. — Ernest Hemingway

4. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin

5. Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche
Cls-A0A0R9-A

6. The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. — George Bernard Shaw

7. Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile. — Kurt Vonnegut

8. I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. — Frank Lloyd Wright

9. Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. — Denis Diderot

10. A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows. — Samuel Clemens

11. The whole thing is so patently infantile, so foreign to reality, that to anyone with a friendly attitude to humanity it is painful to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above this view of life. — Sigmund Freud

12. Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful. — Edward Gibbon

13. The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church. — Ferdinand Magellan

14. Not only is there no god, but try getting a plumber on weekends. — Woody Allen

15. It’s an incredible con job when you think about it, to believe something now in exchange for something after death. Even corporations with their reward systems don’t try to make it posthumous. — Gloria Steinem

 

[Dotini]

I would really like to think that we had a divine creator, but we really are not important or special enough in the grand scheme of things!!

4. Lighthouses are more helpful then churches. — Benjamin Franklin

8. I believe in God, only I spell it Nature. — Frank Lloyd Wright

9. Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. — Denis Diderot

99.99% of the visible universe consists of plasma. So little planets of rock, water, air (and human biology) are indeed exceedingly scarce. So it must be allowed that we can only be a minor part of the workings of Nature. Even so, we are an integral part of it. It is our duty, but not necessarily our destiny, to understand and accept our true place in the great scheme. Armed with light and freedom, we are able to do bettter than kings and priests.

Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[Danoff]

Thanks for the quotes Pappaclart.

 

[Tic Tach]

Anyways, my opinion is that God does exist indeed. How do I come to such a conclusion? Well, I'll make it short. 1) The huge amount of religious books and texts thousands years old. (controversial I know)

All you've said is that "In the last couple thousand years, primitive humans wrote some books based in a pre-scientific, barbaric, tribal, superstitious, and staggeringly ignorant time."

And this amounts to compelling evidence for you? I respectfully suggest that you re-think that.

Here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa?ob=1#p/u/78/ZFrkjEgUDZA


http://www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-popularity/

2) I believe for certain reasons in reincarnation.

Oy. I see you've abandoned rational thought. Just Google "Reincarnation debunked" and see what you find. Here's a start:

http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html

3) An experience I had, but not like to talk about to the "ordinary" person.

Why? Is it inherently embarassing? Let me guess; you had some "interesting" or coincidental experience which you interpret as a deity who has a special interest in you, while 30,000 children die of starvation each day. Does that make sense? When a christian praises their imaginary god for getting them that parking space while (at possibly the same time) the bus-load of children die in a horriffic firey crash, I have to think that they are either the epitome of egotism, or just don't think very much.

4) Big amount of reports of out of body experiences, coupled with "religious" experiences.

And this amounts to evidence for a god for you? What are "religious experiences"? - the "feelings" one might have when whipped into a frenzy of
communal, uncritical belief; combined with song, chanting, dancing?

Again, I suggest that you apply some ciritical thinking to these things which you find convincing evidence of a deity. You will find that they are explainable in fully natural terms. Google is your friend.

and finally, the most important reason for me to believe in God is the feeling of being connected to someone or sth. (??) The feeling you get when you pray or just think thoroughly about this topic. I truly believe that most people feel that special feeling.

So, feelings are evidence for gods?

I think you'd like this book:


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591025672/?tag=gtplanet-20

Why do those, who do not believe in God do not feel it you may ask? I guess they are sort of "dissconected" from God or the Creator or the "source", if you want so.

Gah! Next you'll be claiming a moral high-ground. The atheist can experience awe, wonder, love, passion, empathy, compassion as much as the believer in imaginary father figures.


The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure. Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind. (Sigmund Freud)

Well, all in all I am personaly convinced that "God", whatever "he" may be, does exist.

Some reading:

http://www.godisimaginary.com/

 

[TouringDevotee]

I am quite often inspired and perplexed by those who believe in a higher being, and yet also those who do not.

 

[Alex p.]

All you've said is that "In the last couple thousand years, primitive humans wrote some books based in a pre-scientific, barbaric, tribal, superstitious, and staggeringly ignorant time."
...

Honestly, I feel attacked and insulted by you, much negativity. I never said any of the points I named are evidence in any way, not even for me, besides I pointed out that all the points ARE controversial. I SUPPOSE (do not intend to insult you) that you are one of those, who despirately try to debunk everything you are not able to proof or understand, that is sad. Concerning my personal experience-no it is not what you imagine it to be and you are one of the last I would like to talk to about it and I DEFINATELY did not abandoned rational thought.
Talking about rationality and God, even some scientists-physics are almost convinced this universe must be "engineered", as all the forces work in such a perfect manner together and when you would change just one force (e.g.electromagnetisme) a tiny little bit, the whole universe wouldn't "work" or "collapse"-means no life at all.
Let's get to reincarnation, in a scientific way again. Quantum physicists, more and more of them, try to explain the "soul" by saying that we are basically "consciousness"-the results of all our experiences, feelings and thoughts. Everything in the universe is energy, even thoughts, at least that's what Einstein said. I am not a scientist, and not educated enough and certainly not smart enough to understand this stuff, but than agian no one really is, yet.
I really can understand that you do not believe in God, even I doubt from time to time his existence when I see the simply unbelievable cruelty done in the world, and yes often in the name of "God", that is a sad thing.
Believe me, I have many many more reasons to believe in God but again I am not willing to tell people why, the ractions would be too negative and I respect myself too much to let that happen.
I hope you will experience someday sth. that will make you wonder and think about this topic again.

The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure. Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind. (Sigmund Freud)

That is an absolutely fascinating thought and it seems very logical (before reading this "idea" years ago already, I already figured that out by myself, so much to christians not thinking enough, yeah).Though, as stupid as it may sound to you, it does not contradict with my beliefe, I do not see God as a person, but more as an energy or universal intelligence.

In respect, Alex.

 

[Tic Tach]

Honestly, I feel attacked and insulted by you, much negativity.

Please don't take it personally. If you fail to provide evidence for wild claims like reincarnation, why does that translate into being insulted or attacked?

I never said any of the points I named are evidence in any way

Yet, you said this:


..my opinion is that God does exist indeed. How do I come to such a conclusion? Well, I'll make it short:

1) the huge amount of religious books and texts thousands years old(controversial I know)

2) I believe for certain reasons in reincarnation(soul-afterlife, the movie I posted below shows why, it's great, please give it a shot-also controversial yes)

3) An experience I had, but not like to talk about to the "ordinary" person

4) Big amount of reports of out of body experiences-coupled with "religious" experiences(yes also controversial) and finally, the most important reason for me to believe in God is the feeling of being connected to someone or sth. The feeling you get when you pray or just think thoroughly about this topic. I truly believe that most people feel that special feeling.

and then you finished it off with:

Well, all in all I am personaly convinced that "God", whatever "he" may be, does exist.

So hopefully you can see how that might be misleading if you didn't offer that as evidence.

If that is not evidence for you, what would be? And then, is there any evidence that fits your criteria?

I SUPPOSE (do not intend to insult you) that you are one of those who despirately try to debunk everything you are not able to proof or understand, that is sad.

No, I ask for evidence for claims made. And ones evidence should be proportional to ones claims.

Why is it "sad" to be a rationalist?

Concerning my personal experience-no it is not what you imagine it to be and you are one of the last I would like to talk to about it

Why? If you have evidence for a deity, why be so unkind and keep it a secret from the rest of us? Why are you so reluctant to offer your "experience"?

Talking about rationality and God, even some scientists-physics are almost convinced this universe must be "engineered", as all the forces work in such a perfect manner together and when you would change just one force (e.g.electromagnetisme) a tiny little bit, the whole universe wouldn't "work" or "collapse"-means no life at all.

Uh, no. There are a few people with Phd's who think that the earth is flat, but you must appreciate that something like 95% of the Academy of Science is non-theistic.

I really can understand that you do not believe in God, even I doubt from time to time his existence when I see the simply unbelievable cruelty done in the world, and yes often in the name of "God", that is a sad thing.
Believe me, I have many many more reasons to believe in God but again I am not willing to tell people why, the ractions would be too negative and I respect myself too much to let that happen.
I hope you will experience someday sth. that will make you wonder and think about this topic again.

Actually, I was a Christian for a quarter century. I'm quite familiar with the song & dance.



It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence. (W. K. Clifford)

 

[Alex p.]

Think of me what you want Tic Tach but I have not the motivation or energy to discuss this topic with you anymore, take it as a win or as a proof, that I am the "typical" believer, not able to bring evidence forth or be able to defend his own points, but as I said, I have not the energy and therefore not the motivation to do it.

 

[Dotini]

Actually, I was a Christian for a quarter century. I'm quite familiar with the song & dance.

Dear Tic Tach,
I and many others have never had this experience. Can you reveal stories of sexual abuse and Satan worship? Have you been confronted by demons? Were you a pre-, mid- or post-tribulationalist? Were you involved in aggressive proselytizing?

If answering these questions is in any way painful for you, please do not.

Thank you and respectfully yours,
Dotini

 

[Tic Tach]

Dear Tic Tach,
I and many others have never had this experience. Can you reveal stories of sexual abuse and Satan worship? Have you been confronted by demons? Were you a pre-, mid- or post-tribulationalist? Were you involved in aggressive proselytizing?

Sorry, I don't understand all that. I simply ceased holding the false beliefs that I was raised with, after placing those beliefs under critical, rational, skeptical, and most importantly, intellectually honest inquiry. I did this not because of any problems, trauma or event; rather, it took place over a two year period, and because I care more about what is true over what is comforting, familiar, or indoctrinated. It is my experience/observation that the vast majority of believers in the supernatural have no appetite to do this.


Men have had the vanity to pretend that the whole universe was made for them, whilst in reality the whole universe does not suspect their existence. (Camille Flammarion)


There was a really good documentary made a year or two ago called "The Enemies of Reason" and I'm sure you can find it (and view it) on-line. I highly recommend it.


Cheers.

 

[Dotini]

I simply ceased holding the false beliefs that I was raised with...

Thanks for that, Tic Tach. Only two more questions, if you wouldn't mind, please:
Did your process from supernatural belief to reason involve a schism with your family or peer group?
I must assume that at one time you believed you had a soul. Was it at all a difficult decision for you to relinquish this belief?

Many thanks,
Dotini

 

[Tic Tach]

Did your process from supernatural belief to reason involve a schism with your family or peer group?

No. None whatsoever. 99.9999% of theists that I speak to ask this question, and I understand why it is asked......because then they have a "reason" why I jettisoned said beliefs other than that those beliefs are untenable and false.

I must assume that at one time you believed you had a soul.

Yes, that was part of the package of supernatural beliefs that I was inculcated with.

There is no absurdity, however palpable, which cannot be firmly implanted in the minds of all, if only one begins to inculcate it before the early age of six by constantly repeating it to them with an air of great solemnity. For the training of man, like that of animals, is completely successful only at an early age. (Arthur Schopenhaur)

Was it at all a difficult decision for you to relinquish this belief?

Not one bit. As a matter of fact, coming to the sober realization and acceptance that this life - this brief puff of consciousness - is it, makes life all the more precious and appreciated.




Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too? (Douglas Adams)

 

[Revelation1115]

i think muslims have the stupidest religion.. i mean what type of god makes you cover your whole body when you live in the middle east with 100+ degree weather? not only that, they cant shave! thats so dirty

 

[Tic Tach]

i think muslims have the stupidest religion.. i mean what type of god makes you cover your whole body when you live in the middle east with 100+ degree weather? not only that, they cant shave! thats so dirty

I think that the clothing of the desert dwellers is functionally cooler than anything else, but regardless, the muslim bubble of delusion is right up there with the others.

Watch this if you have a few minutes:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVuw1wEuaAQ

 

[DK]

i think muslims have the stupidest religion.. i mean what type of god makes you cover your whole body when you live in the middle east with 100+ degree weather? not only that, they cant shave! thats so dirty

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't like it if I said that Christianity was the stupidest religion because of the belief in Jesus' resurrection and that he managed to feed 5,000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.