Do you believe in God?

[Tic Tach]

Suggested reading:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591026520/?tag=gtplanet-20

 

[Dotini]

Does Tic Tach believe the quest for knowledge over? The time of study and debate done? Perhaps he sees it all in Manichean terms, struggle between good and bad, which "good" has won and is now bound to destroy the bad, its books and believers. Worse yet, are there no shades of grey or, horrors, alternate colors in Tic Tach's universe?

Yours,
Dotini

 

[Tic Tach]

Does Tic Tach believe the quest for knowledge over?

Why would you even suggest that?

....are there no shades of grey or, horrors, alternate colors in Tic Tach's universe?

a) There is no "Tic Tach's universe", there is only the universe.

b) On the god question; correct, there is no middle ground, there either is a personal god as claimed by the theist, or there isn't.

 

[Dotini]

On the god question...there is no middle ground, there either is a personal god as claimed by the theist, or there isn't.

Let's say that, since 99.999% of the universe is anathema to biology, humans are merely superfluous accidents, freaks who don't really belong here , and that there is no personal God for us. That's an hypothesis that I like.

However, let us suppose for a moment that within that other 99.999% of the universe, there are non-biological lifeforms for whom there is a personal God. Would it be your business to deny, a priori, i.e., independent of experience, the existence of an alien God?

 

[Tic Tach]

Let's say that, since 99.999% of the universe is anathema to biology, humans are merely superfluous accidents, freaks who don't really belong here, and that there is no personal God for us.

We humans exist because we have evolved from simpler forms of biochemical "stuff" in the last 3.5 billion years, and because this particular orb has an atmosphere, liquid water, etc. So it's not that we don't belong here, rather, we exist here because some conditions have allowed life to cook up, and we live on a knife's edge of existence due to our intolerance of (for example) temperatures higher or lower than out extremely narrow comfort level.

However, let us suppose for a moment that within that other 99.999% of the universe, there are non-biological lifeforms for whom there is a personal God.

Interesting concept.

a) Evidence for this is?

b) How does a life form "be" without biology?

c) If said life form possesses consciousness, how does it do so without a brain?

...Would it be your business to deny, a priori, i.e., independent of experience, the existence of an alien God?

Without evidence, it would be appropriate to deny that.



It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence. (W. K. Clifford)

 

[mirial]

Stephen Hawking now believes we only exist because of 'Spontaneous Creation' - because of a hypothetical multiverse, that is believed to attribute to the almost near infinite chance of intelligent lifeforms existing that are conscious of themselves. It happens to be us.

Has anyone asked the question whether they would exist had both their parents married someone else?

But what about all the coincidences surrounding Jesus Christ? Same theory as above?

But why is it that when we approach a narrow bridge or parked car on a quite road, there happens to be, most of the time, a car coming the other way that creates an inconvenience?

 

[Duke]

But why is it that when we approach a narrow bridge or parked car on a quite road, there happens to be, most of the time, a car coming the other way that creates an inconvenience?

Because we notice it only when it is an inconvenience. All the times we just edge over and drive past without thinking about it don't get remembered.

 

[Famine]

I've heard of the devil being in the details, but I've never encountered Christ being in the contraflow...

 

[mirial]

Because we notice it only when it is an inconvenience. All the times we just edge over and drive past without thinking about it don't get remembered.

When it is a convenience, it doesn't get remembered because that happened the time there was the probababilty that it should have happened.

What about all those Tarot Cards and Mediums....I know some relatives who have used them where the predictions came true. Quite scary.

 

[fitftw]

There might be. I don't know, and so I won't put my faith in any kind of religion just because.

 

[Tic Tach]

There might be. I don't know, and so I won't put my faith in any kind of religion just because.

Interesting word, "faith". It has somehow been claimed to be a virtue, whereas I think that believing in things for which there is no evidence (or evidence to the contrary) is not a good thing. Some additional thoughts by greater minds than mine:


Faith: the effort to believe that which your common sense tells you is not true. (Elbert Hubbard)


Faith is believing things by definition which are not justified by reason. If it were justified by reason, it wouldn't be faith. (Colin McGinn)


It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence. (W. K. Clifford)


The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. (Benjamin Franklin)


Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. (Richard Dawkins)


Faith is believing what you know ain't so. (Mark Twain)


The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called faith. (Robert Ingersoll)


Faith means the will to avoid knowing what is true. (Nietzsche)


Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel. (Ambrose Bierce)


A man full of faith is simply one who has lost the capacity for clear and realistic thought. (Henry Mencken)


Faith is the determination to remain ignorant in the face of all evidence that you are ignorant. (Shaun Mason)


“I refuse to prove that I exist,” says God, “for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing”. (Douglas Adams)


Faith does not give you the answers; it just stops you asking the questions. (Frater Ravus)


The Spanish Inquisition: The original faith-based initiative.


I think I do understand god. I actually think a good working definition of "atheist" is "one who understands what a god is". It is like magic; once you understand how the trick is done it is no longer magic. Understanding destroys faith. (Mark Richardson)


Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for the lost faith in ourselves. (Eric Hoffer)




....and don't miss this:


http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell#p/u/3/dbJ4CPWi_pg





.

 

[Touring Mars]

Excellent post, Tic Tach 👍... but you forgot one:

When you believe in things
That you don't understand
Then you suffer
Superstition ain't the way

 

[Zad]

Tic Tach, you sir are full of win

 

[Joel]

When it is a convenience, it doesn't get remembered because that happened the time there was the probababilty that it should have happened.

What about all those Tarot Cards and Mediums....I know some relatives who have used them where the predictions came true. Quite scary.

That's because you only hear about the times when the magic comes true. You don't hear a co worker or relative come up to you and say "dude, I went to this psychic yesterday and his prediction totally didn't come true!". Likewise, I've had a fortune cookie come true before "you have a promotion coming in your line of work", and there it was the next day, but how about all the other fortune cookies which haven't come true?

 

[Tic Tach]

Have you seen the documentary "The Enemies of Reason"? It can be viewed on-line.

 

[High-Test]

This thread has had some top-notch comments while I've been away. 👍

Suppose that one cannot accept the reasons for the existence of the universe (or universes) that do not have a set starting point. I've never been a particularly religious person, but I decided that the linchpin to whether or not I was a believer or an atheist lay in the soundness of any argument for the existence of the universe(s). Maybe I'm covering ground that's already been covered here.

Some say that the universe came out of another universe that collapsed on itself. I couldn't buy that. So for me, belief in God was borne out of reason. I'm a budding sociologist and have an insurance license.. I have a damnable instinct to search for a proximate cause.


Energy cannot be created or destroyed, right? Maybe it's just a societal conditioning, but one could argue that if one entity could violate this most sacred law of the universe, it would be some sort of God-like figure.


For the sake of argument, could one believe that dark energy and dark matter are matters of faith?

 

[Tic Tach]

Perhaps instead of the impoverished, superstitious knee-jerk answer of "god-did-it", you might find some things to chew on in one of the following books:


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0465006965/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195178033/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195098919/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591021200/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591026520/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591024242/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591020182/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591023815/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/0809059193/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195305345/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415301068/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591027519/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591027136/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0595481647/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0309094321/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0446579807/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060505915/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0415325102/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0307278778/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0393327655/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0618918248/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1559708506/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0143038338/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0615161227/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/1601450893/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1840027282/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0595427375/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1595477241/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591025672/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1569755671/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/0812696379/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805070893/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591024765/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0805077766/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/087975124X/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1578849209/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0192804243/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0877229430/?tag=gtplanet-20




http://www.amazon.com/dp/1440106487/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1405190469/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1573920673/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0465013058/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0767926145/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1578840023/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/141203096X/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0954395662/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0970950519/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1434830241/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1439236976/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0061173924/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0964487349/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1411691253/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591026067/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0982481802/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591025613/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1847061737/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0557044642/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591027519/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/1569757844/?tag=gtplanet-20



http://www.amazon.com/dp/0826424937/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/1616141689/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195379667/?tag=gtplanet-20


http://www.amazon.com/dp/0195385810/?tag=gtplanet-20

 

[High-Test]

Perhaps instead of the impoverished, superstitious knee-jerk answer of "god-did-it", you might find some things to chew on in one of the following books:

Perhaps you did not read my comment. Instead of engaging in some meaningful discourse, you have decided to insinuate that I am superstitious and mentally impoverished.

I honestly would like to hear what you have to say. Try again.

 

[Danoff]

Suppose that one cannot accept the reasons for the existence of the universe (or universes) that do not have a set starting point.

That person would then also have to reject the notion of a god that did not have a set starting point.

 

[Tic Tach]

Sorry, I don't have the time right now. If you'd really like to discuss such topics with others, go here.

 

[Joey D]

Some say that the universe came out of another universe that collapsed on itself. I couldn't buy that. So for me, belief in God was borne out of reason. I'm a budding sociologist and have an insurance license.. I have a damnable instinct to search for a proximate cause.

Pffft, sociologist. Everyone knows cultural anthropology is better

Seriously though, I've been doing some thinking and reading on the subject of ancient religions (honestly the show Ancient Aliens on History got me curious). We often say religion was borne out of the need to explain things that were unexplainable at the time, I have been a pretty big supporter of that notion too. However, I think this takes away from ancient man's intelligence. Ancient man was smart enough to figure out how to build massive structures like the pyramids without any of the modern machines. That right ther takes some serious know how, hell building something like that today takes so serious know how.

If ancient man could figure how to build big ass structures along with all the other, frankly, amazing feats, who's to say they didn't know how to explain things that we've claimed they invented myths for?

 

[Danoff]

If ancient man could figure how to build big ass structures along with all the other, frankly, amazing feats, who's to say they didn't know how to explain things that we've claimed they invented myths for?

Could be, but I'm pretty sure ancient man didn't know anything about evolution or astrophysics. Just guessing, but if they did, there are a lot of pieces of the puzzle that no longer match up.

 

[homeforsummer]

Could be, but I'm pretty sure ancient man didn't know anything about evolution or astrophysics. Just guessing, but if they did, there are a lot of pieces of the puzzle that no longer match up.

I suppose it's not beyond reason that their answers have just been lost over millenia. I suppose it's particularly possible from cultures where only a handful of inviduals could read or write and where people lived shorter lives. It makes you wonder how many amazing discoveries have been lost over history because someone never had the time or knowledge to put them to paper for future generations.

So it's unlikely they knew some of these answers, but not beyond comprehension.

 

[Joey D]

Not to mention countless libraries burned over the centuries and had many important documents lost. And then was the whole business with the church going to town on anything they didn't agree with.

Ancient man probably didn't know about some of the things we do today, I mean there is nothing to suggest they understood quantum physics, but I really do think they knew more then what we give them credit for.

 

[Dotini]

. It makes you wonder how many amazing discoveries have been lost over history because someone never had the time or knowledge to put them to paper for future generations.

This is an interesting question.
Perhaps one of the reasons certain technologies have been "lost" is that they were highly secret to begin with.

"Of all human inventions, the telescope is the one which produces the most wonderful results with the least material." - Arthur C. Clarke

"Although Galileo is rightfully credited with introducing the telescope to the world in 1609, he certainly did not invent it. Excellent rock-crystal lenses have been known for several thousand years, and it seems incredible that Archimedes - or some Chinese or Egyptian inventor even earlier - did not make the simple and obvious experiment of looking through two of them at the same time." - Arthur C. Clarke

These quotes are from the introduction to an amazing book by Robert Temple, The Crystal Sun, which documents many ancient works which could only have been constructed with the aid of microscopy or theodolites. The book is illustrated with plates which show many of the actual lenses themselves, still in existence scattered in world museums.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[Dapper]

Pffft, sociologist. Everyone knows cultural anthropology is better

Seriously though, I've been doing some thinking and reading on the subject of ancient religions (honestly the show Ancient Aliens on History got me curious). We often say religion was borne out of the need to explain things that were unexplainable at the time, I have been a pretty big supporter of that notion too. However, I think this takes away from ancient man's intelligence. Ancient man was smart enough to figure out how to build massive structures like the pyramids without any of the modern machines. That right ther takes some serious know how, hell building something like that today takes so serious know how.

If ancient man could figure how to build big ass structures along with all the other, frankly, amazing feats, who's to say they didn't know how to explain things that we've claimed they invented myths for?

Well, I think you are giving them too much credit. Aristotle said around 300BC that all things don't fall at the same rate, and then it took some 1300 years for one person to actually try it! And of course Aristotle was wrong.
Religion was spawed out of fear...
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm

 

[WVUscion]

I suppose it's not beyond reason that their answers have just been lost over millenia. I suppose it's particularly possible from cultures where only a handful of inviduals could read or write and where people lived shorter lives. It makes you wonder how many amazing discoveries have been lost over history because someone never had the time or knowledge to put them to paper for future generations.

So it's unlikely they knew some of these answers, but not beyond comprehension.

Many times when you see programs on the history channel, or hear about some extremely famous person from ancient times that supposedly knows something groundbreaking that shouldn't have been figured out until modern science, it turns out that they "know" it for all the wrong reasons. While it is likewise debatable to say that they actually know a certain thing if it is for the wrong reasons, it is a topic best left to the knowledge thread. Some notable examples are as follows:

Thales accurately predicted a solar eclipse for the very first time in 585 bc. Since he left no written records, and those around him received no explanation, it is probable that he just made a lucky guess.

Anaximander was the first person to predict that humans evolved from other animals at around 450 BC. However he didn't use the fossil record. He knew that children are very helpless when they are very young. Therefore, if the first human was an infant then it would certainly die. His conclusion was that humans must have come from other animals and not just appeared spontaneously.

Around the same time Democritus reasoned that because of the definition of "cutting in half" it would be impossible for such a process to go on for forever. Therefore, he said, that everything must be made up of fundamental particles that are ultimately uncuttable. He used the greek word for uncuttable to describe them: atoms.

The famous astronomer Johan Kepler believed that planets had perception and consciousness and that they followed the movements of the heavens because they were "following" the laws of the heavens.

Aristotle believed that inanimate objects had consciousness as well. He claimed that when you drop heavier objects their added weight makes them decide to "proceed more jubilantly".

These are just a few of the numerous amount of examples. In closing, the ancients most definitely had people who tried to develop "scientific" explanation for the rain, the moon, the stars, and all other phenomena. Sometimes there "research" turned out to be right. However if they were right it was because they either got extremely lucky or they deduced their conclusion from unlikely connections.

 

[Dapper]

After that it's worth mentioning how ancient plays, and poems, encorporated gods and goddesses that control specific facets in the human world, and the gods would act accodingly on human's behavior. They were so right then that people now still believe in this idea.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

After that it's worth mentioning how ancient plays, and poems, encorporated gods and goddesses that control specific facets in the human world, and the gods would act accodingly on human's behavior. They were so right then that people now still believe in this idea.

And it's become so profound of a culture that I'm learning about it right now. Reading the play of Antigone, from the playwright Sophocles.

And no, I don't believe in God.

 

[WVUscion]

Due to the nature of the comments posted in the last page and a half of posts I have an open question for everyone:

Why is faith so bad, especially when faith is used to make seemingly logical conclusions on a day to day basis?

Here is a common example. I can honestly profess that I have never touched my hand to a hot stove. However I will not go into my kitchen right now and turn the burner on high with my hand on top, nor will I ever barring accident. I have seen much "evidence" to the consequences of putting my hand on a stove. I have heard stories about other people putting their hand to a stove, and those stories have convinced me it is a bad idea to do so. Have I committed a fallacy and thus am wrong to steadfastly not touch a hot stove? Is culture wrong for teaching me such things?

A more extreme example. I have not, nor will I ever do cocaine. I know other people who have. I have read stories on the news and on the internet about how it can potentially ruin your life. However I have also heard "evidence" to the contrary. While sources tell me that it is highly addictive and just one use may ruin your life for forever, the users that I know are most definitely not addicted and only use on an extremely limited occasion. Which side of the story am I to believe? To me, I have faith that doing cocaine is not for me, and that it would not be beneficial to me.

So where is the connection here? The two examples I listed may not seem like faith to some people. Tic Tach said that believing in things for which there is no evidence (or evidence to the contrary) is a sufficient definition. I agree with this definition as well. I find it hard to believe that we have situations in which we do things even though there is either little evidence or evidence to the contrary in our everyday lives. Even those who say that our decisions are purely logical have some sort of "plunge" in their lives. For instance there is no definitive reason to believe that there are in fact stoves (skeptical hypothesis), so is one not going by faith that the "reality" that we see is truly a reality? Then we come to those who buy into religion. If you sit and speak with many you see that they believe firmly that they have seen empirical evidence of gods existence in everyday life. While this is silly to someone who does not believe, it goes in the same token as the skeptical hypothesis. We take for granted numerous things on an everyday basis that ultimately show our faith.