Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,484 comments
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Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,050 51.4%

  • Total voters
    2,041
Isn't a benevolent and omniscient/potent/present deity, by definition, the greatest good?

Thus any deity which permits the rape of children "for the greater good" is in fact doing it for themselves. That argument leads to the only possibly conclusion that any such deity is a paedophile.
 
As far as we can tell, there is no other universe than this, and no higher authority than its supposed creator and architect. But there are limits on what we know, and on what we can know. But perhaps it's possible that "god" creates its own higher authority? I submit that's what happens when "god" shares the consciousness - the experiences - of the living beings of this evolving universe. In such a way "god" learns what it's like to be subject to authority, and to exercise authority over others.
We've been over this. The idea that humans suffer because god is curious is absurd.


Edit: Tree'd
 
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It doesn't matter what I think really, if god is the supreme it automatically has authority over everything, that includes me.
You just mean because it can? That doesn't mean it's "good" or has moral authority - which is what "greater good" implies. So it does matter what you think.
 
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Isn't a benevolent and omniscient/potent/present deity, by definition, the greatest good?

Thus any deity which permits the rape of children "for the greater good" is in fact doing it for themselves. That argument leads to the only possibly conclusion that any such deity is a paedophile.
How convinent to consistently choose some of what we consider to be the most vile of acts as a reference, and leave out all the acts of love and good that are committed by people everyday also.
 
How convinent to consistently choose some of what we consider to be the most vile of acts as a reference, and leave out all the acts of love and good that are committed by people everyday also.
It was your argument that child sexual abuse is for the greater good from the point of view of a deity.

Acts of goodness and kindness being necessary for a deity that's purportedly good and kind doesn't seem to be something that needs explaining. "If your god is so good, why does he allow charity and helpfulness, eh" is... superfluous.

Acts of evil and sickness also being necessary for that same deity does need explaining.

It does seem a rather inconvenient position to hold, because it's quite tricky to defend. Which I guess explains why you're now not bothering to and simply complaining about it being dismantled.
 
It doesn't matter what I think really, if god is the supreme it automatically has authority over everything, that includes me.
It does matter what you think and do. The purpose and meaning of life is to have experiences. You have free will so that you will have experiences, experiences that "god" shares and learns from.
 
It was your argument that child sexual abuse is for the greater good from the point of view of a deity.

Acts of goodness and kindness being necessary for a deity that's purportedly good and kind doesn't seem to be something that needs explaining. "If your god is so good, why does he allow charity and helpfulness, eh" is... superfluous.

Acts of evil and sickness also being necessary for that same deity does need explaining.

It does seem a rather inconvenient position to hold, because it's quite tricky to defend. Which I guess explains why you're now not bothering to and simply complaining about it being dismantled.
I was never the one to continually drag up all the dirt about child sex abuse and the Christian church, I simply responded to a bombardment of many ridiculous questions.
 
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What kind of god is this that created the universe and needs to learn a lot more about rape?
Some religions, including "heretical" Christians such as the Cathars, believe(d) in reincarnation. So I speculate that after death, our souls are judged and we may procede to one sort of heaven or hell until reincarnation. I suspect rapists, or other offenders of low morality or ethics, will spend a long, long time accounting for their sins before having another chance.
 
I was never the one to continually drag up all the dirt about child sex abuse and the Christian church, I simply responded to a bombardment of many ridiculous questions.
And in that (or rather those) response(s) you said that you believed god allowed for sexual abuse for "the greater good".
Okay let me break it down for you. I acknowledge that suffering is a part of reality, do I like it? No, but the fact is is that people experience suffering. I'd like to believe that God allows for people to suffer ultimately for a greater good, so I guess you could say that I'm not advocating for it, but clearly God is because suffering happens.

The difference between us here is that you would view God to be cruel to allow for suffering, where as I don't see it to be that way.
From my POV it's obviously not okay, but from the POV of god it's for the greater good. That's just my philosophy, does that clarify things for you?
It's a pretty indefensible position, but you floated it. Complaining because other people are discussing it when you have discussed it yourself is... so weird.

And to reiterate, a benevolent deity of supposed limitless power and knowledge is the greatest good possible, by definition. It would also have no need to learn stuff by subjecting people to it, or force people to experience bad things to learn for themselves.

Thus either it doesn't have limitless power and knowledge, or it isn't benevolent, or raping children is "good" by that deity's values (which would be at least consistent with its earthly mouthpieces' beliefs).

Of course omniscience/omnipotence/omnipresence is just such a playground cop-out.
 
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It does matter what you think and do. The purpose and meaning of life is to have experiences. You have free will so that you will have experiences, experiences that "god" shares and learns from.
Maybe it matters in a sense, but not an authoritative one.
 
If it's a choice between belief in a deity that permits (and possibly delights in) molestation and rape--a deity for which there is no credible evidence of existence anyway--and simple not belief, I know which choice I'll make ten out of ten times.

Giving in to delusion is a choice.
 
If it's a choice between belief in a deity that permits (and possibly delights in) molestation and rape--a deity for which there is no credible evidence of existence anyway--and simple not belief, I know which choice I'll make ten out of ten times.

Giving in to delusion is a choice.
But there is credible evidence for the existence of existence itself is there not?
 
But there is credible evidence for the existence of existence itself is there not?
Existence itself is not something we have a truly solid understanding of. Quantum mechanics is revealing that our perception of what is real is based on statistical correlation rather than pure existence.
 
Existence itself is not something we have a truly solid understanding of. Quantum mechanics is revealing that our perception of what is real is based on statistical correlation rather than pure existence.
I like the idea that we and everything else are all interference patterns caused by the interaction of two giant fifteen-dimensional bedsheets kind of like the hot dog that appears between your index fingers when you put them together and stare up close.

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Existence itself is not something we have a truly solid understanding of. Quantum mechanics is revealing that our perception of what is real is based on statistical correlation rather than pure existence.
And what exactly is statistical correlation? This is the thing about Science, it has it's uses. But can Science ever really tell me what is matter, what is energy, what is an atom, what is existence, what is reality, what is life, etc. It's really good at telling me about such subjects, but it can never quite explain to me what they actually are in their purest essence.

At the end of the day there's always going to be a big ? regarding reality and what it actually is, and Science alone will never truly be able to explain reality in my humble opinion.
 
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And what exactly is statistical correlation? This is the thing about Science, it has it's uses. But can Science ever really tell me what is matter, what is energy, what is an atom, what is existence, what is reality, what is life, etc. It's really good at telling me about such subjects, but it can never quite explain to me what they actually are in their purest essence.

At the end of the day there's always going to be a big ? regarding reality and what it actually is, and Science alone will never truly be able to explain reality in my humble opinion.
I'm not aware of any other explanation regarding what reality "actually is" in its "purest essence". Certainly I know of no religion which offers any serious explanation for that.

What exactly is statistical correlation? I'll try to answer.

Imagine that all possible outcomes of an event occur. Given the nature of the event, and all of the possible starting conditions of the event, some outcomes are common to multiple starting conditions. Some outcomes occur from more starting conditions than others. Those outcomes are more "likely" to occur. Now imagine that you exist in only one of those outcomes, your reality is shaped by everything that is "correlated" with the outcome you're in. Not all outcomes are possible outcomes.

For example, and this example assumes the existence of a coin and the existence of the physics needed to "flip" it.

A coin is flipped 4 times. Here are all possible outcomes (Heads is H, Tails is T):

HHHH
HHHT
HHTH
HHTT
HTHH
HTHT
HTTH
HTTT
THHH
THHT
THTH
THTT
TTHH
TTHT
TTTH
TTTT

5 heads is not a possible outcome. There is 1 way to get all heads, and 1 way to get all tails. There are 3 ways to get 3 heads, and 3 ways to get 3 tails. The remaining (8) are 2 heads 2 tails. If a coin is flipped 4 times, you're most likely to be in a universe where tails occurs twice. And if you are, you'll find when you observe, that you're correlated with the outcome that heads occurs twice as well. You won't see 3 heads in your universe because you're in the universe where tails occurred twice, and 3 heads, while possible, is not consistent with that outcome.
 
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I'm not aware of any other explanation regarding what reality "actually is" in its "purest essence". Certainly I know of no religion which offers any serious explanation for that.

What exactly is statistical correlation? I'll try to answer.

Imagine that all possible outcomes of an event occur. Given the nature of the event, and all of the possible starting conditions of the event, some outcomes are common to multiple starting conditions. Some outcomes occur from more starting conditions than others. Those outcomes are more "likely" to occur. Now imagine that you exist in only one of those outcomes, your reality is shaped by everything that is "correlated" with the outcome you're in. Not all outcomes are possible outcomes.

For example, and this example assumes the existence of a coin and the existence of the physics needed to "flip" it.

A coin is flipped 4 times. Here are all possible outcomes (Heads is H, Tails is T):

HHHH
HHHT
HHTH
HHTT
HTHH
HTHT
HTTH
HTTT
THHH
THHT
THTH
THTT
TTHH
TTHT
TTTH
TTTT

5 heads is not a possible outcome. There is 1 way to get all heads, and 1 way to get all tails. There are 3 ways to get 3 heads, and 3 ways to get 3 tails. The remaining (8) are 2 heads 2 tails. If a coin is flipped 4 times, you're most likely to be in a universe where tails occurs twice. And if you are, you'll find when you observe, that you're correlated with the outcome that heads occurs twice as well. You won't see 3 heads in your universe because you're in the universe where tails occurred twice, and 3 heads, while possible, is not consistent with that outcome.
 
Must be a good distraction for our Christian God, from the massive amounts of child sexual abuse that is enabled under his stewardship.
For me, this kind of thing always goes back to the question of where we would ask God to draw the line. What should be removed by God? All abuse? Certain types of abuse? Murder? Accidental death? Accidental injury? Hardship? Discomfort? Anything physically challenging? Anything mentally challenging?

Note - I'm operating under the assumption that you would want God to the address the "child sexual abuse that is enabled under his stewardship".
 
For me, this kind of thing always goes back to the question of where we would ask God to draw the line. What should be removed by God? All abuse? Certain types of abuse? Murder? Accidental death? Accidental injury? Hardship? Discomfort? Anything physically challenging? Anything mentally challenging?

Note - I'm operating under the assumption that you would want God to the address the "child sexual abuse that is enabled under his stewardship".
I figure the goal would be along the same lines as it is when it comes to laws. Protect people's rights, anything more is a personal choice. Abuse, murder, and accidental death (and birth) are out (accidents become odd if there is an all powerful being about since they would require that being's consent to be possible). If someone wants to live with hardships to overcome they can as long as it doesn't affect other people.
 
Clearly god's viewpoint, god by definition has no higher authority apart from itself.
Your god by your definition has no higher authority than itself. That's not clear at all, because it's your god and only you can tell us the specific properties of it. Unless you're back to believing in the Abrahamic God which has very well defined properties, but you seem adamant that you're not a Christian so you couldn't be.

It's entirely possible that someone else who believed in a different god could have a relationship with them that allowed for disagreement and behaviour that contradicted with their god's implicit wishes or plans.

You personally don't think that suffering is okay, but you're willing to defer to your god who thinks it is. Functionally, your behaviour is then going to be identical to someone who thinks that suffering is okay. Your statements are just a cover to make you feel better about yourself.

The Bible is full of a lot of horse****, but the idea that people should be judged according to their deeds and actions is fundamentally a pretty good one. Ultimately you can think whatever you like, what matters is what you do and how you treat other people. If you say that you think that suffering isn't okay but you behave as if it is because that's what you think your god would want, you're not helping matters at all.
But can Science ever really tell me what is matter, what is energy, what is an atom, what is existence, what is reality, what is life, etc. It's really good at telling me about such subjects, but it can never quite explain to me what they actually are in their purest essence.
Does it need to? Science doesn't claim to explain the purest essence of things, it's a progressive investigation of how things behave. In that pursuit, it's useful for various reasons to come up with conceptual models of what fundamental systems might cause such behaviour but these models are not necessary. Chemistry still worked before we knew what atoms were, physics still worked before we knew about conservation of energy.

There's an assumption on your part that there is such a thing as a "purest essence" of something. That's just a variant on the idea of Platonic Ideals.
For me, this kind of thing always goes back to the question of where we would ask God to draw the line. What should be removed by God? All abuse? Certain types of abuse? Murder? Accidental death? Accidental injury? Hardship? Discomfort? Anything physically challenging? Anything mentally challenging?

Note - I'm operating under the assumption that you would want God to the address the "child sexual abuse that is enabled under his stewardship".
You don't try and draw the line anywhere. You would ask for justification for where God has chosen to draw the line. God has chosen to create a universe in which these things happen, and so there should be some reasoning behind why that is so. It could be on a case by case basis, but if something is truly for the greater good then you should be able to ask why.

I know that police in reality don't work like this in most places, but an ideal police force should be the same way on a much smaller scale. We accept that police may commit assault, murder or other damaging acts in the name of the greater good of the community, but what balances that is that the public should be allowed to question and examine the justification of those actions and have some input as to whether they continue if they're deemed to be unjustified.

If child rape or whatever is truly for the greater good, then I think it's reasonable to want that pretty clearly explained because on the surface it appears to be horrific.
 
The idea that humans suffer because god is curious is absurd.
Absurd is subjective. What if we're just one of a series of experiments on free will by a cosmic engineer of some sort?

I don't understand why you're all so dismissive. There's as little evidence of no god as there is for the existence of one, but you talk like you know for sure there cannot be one.
 
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