Do you believe in God?

  • Thread starter Patrik
  • 24,484 comments
  • 1,109,699 views

Do you believe in god?

  • Of course, without him nothing would exist!

    Votes: 624 30.6%
  • Maybe.

    Votes: 368 18.0%
  • No way!

    Votes: 1,050 51.4%

  • Total voters
    2,041
And why can't belief in God help amplify our faith in science?
Can you explain this statement?

As I've shown, there can be (and is) a place for people of/with faith in something (be it religion or spirituality or whatever) within the domain of science, but what do you mean by "faith in science"?
 
Last edited:
The more I understand about engineering and science, the more I respect what it took and takes to create things.

I understand that I don't know a lot. But I do know enough.

No, I don't have a PHD. No, I don't have a lot of conversation ability.

But I do know that there is no chance that what we have with science is fully understood by anyone.

There is no chance that we can know everything.

There is more to know than can ever be known.

The constants that we have so much faith in are simply what we understand. What if something changes?

What evidence would prove anything?
 
That's just a type of god of the gaps fallacy.

"Whatever information we don't know, it's down to god."
"Okay, so let's stop trying to find things out then."


What if that was said in 1924? Or 1724? Or 1324? To me, that attitude is actually anti-progress. If there are things we'll never know, at what point should we give up trying and just accept "a wizard did it"?

We'd be stuck with candlelight, no schools and surging infant mortality if we had maintained that attitude.
 
Last edited:
There is no chance that we can know everything.
Right. So what?
There is more to know than can ever be known.
Probably. So what?
The constants that we have so much faith in are simply what we understand. What if something changes?
This has happened before. Many, many, many times. What do you think happens?

Take something simple like the kilogram.


It started off as the weight of a litre of water, then they added a temperature specification onto that, then they defined it as equal to a very specific special metal weight that they made, and currently it's defined using mass equivalency which then requires reference to the definitions for energy and the speed of light.

For the vast majority of people, even scientists, none of that functionally changed anything. Constants generally get more accurate, but well beyond the point where most people use them. Most of the time, anything beyond the first handful of significant figures doesn't matter, and so when a constant "changes" it's changing in the parts of it that aren't used. And it doesn't change the understanding of the actual processes going on, it at best maybe makes some of the outputs more accurate than they were before.

It's possible that something could change massively. If that were to happen, there would be a massive hustle as everyone rushed to redo all the work that involved that constant AND figure out how we managed to get so far without noticing that something was massively off. Realistically, a massive change in a constant would be a sign of a fundamental breakthrough in our physical understanding of the universe. It could happen, but it's much more likely to fit in with what we already know than to turn it arse over teakettle.
What evidence would prove anything?
You might want to read up on philosophy of science. It may just confuse you because I'm not sure you have the baseline understanding of basic scientific procedure to be starting to interrogate the foundations of things like "evidence" and "proof". But that's the field that discusses that sort of thing.

The short answer is that nothing is "proven" in the sense that I suspect you mean, in that it's known absolutely. Everything is based on some sort of observation about the world or the universe, and that observation could later be shown to have been misunderstood or incomplete. Everything is the best understanding that we have at the moment based on current observations and knowledge.

Religious types tend to see this as some sort of gotcha moment, as if science was claiming the same sort of absolute knowledge that religion claims. That isn't the case, and is a big part of why science and religion are fundamentally incompatible. Science knows that everything is a best guess. It's just that an informed, rationally constructed and openly shared best guess about anything is about as good as anyone can reasonably be expected to do, and it's a lot better than basing your decisions on millennia old texts attributed to divine inspiration.
The more I understand about engineering and science, the more I respect what it took and takes to create things.

I understand that I don't know a lot. But I do know enough.
Do you? How do you know that you know enough? Because so far you seem unable to answer some pretty basic questions about the statements you've made, and you have some pretty glaring holes in your knowledge of basic science.

What exactly is it that you know enough for? Enough to make broad statements about how science can be improved?
 
There is more to know than can ever be known.

I'm okay with knowing that I don't know much. And can enjoy learning more.

I'm NOT an apologist. I don't come up with good explanations. (Just in case you HADN'T noticed! ;) )

But I do enjoy learning.

On another note, here are some conversations that were very interesting to listen to about how Christianity and Atheism are both being questioned:




And, yes, I am learning. Every day. Maybe not a lot, but I do try to learn.
 
I did not listen to all of the audios. One of the points that I found interesting is that we all need something to believe in. It has been suggested to me that this is one of the reasons for the green movement or save the planet movement, or whatever you choose to call it.
Yes, I am a Christian.
 
It has been suggested to me that this is one of the reasons for the green movement or save the planet movement, or whatever you choose to call it.
Sounds to me like the person who suggested that to you is either a climate change denier or is religious and is trying to create some kind of false equivalency.
 
Last edited:
The constants that we have so much faith in are simply what we understand. What if something changes?
Then it's awesome. It's fantastic when science has a seismic shift.

A great example is the revolution in our understanding of gravity from Newton's Universal Law of Gravitation in 1687 to Einstein's General Theory of Relativity in 1915.
 
Again, so what? You keep saying this like it means something.
It is a scientifically proven fact that there is nothing you can do that can't be done.

There's also nothing you can sing that can't be sung. How very true that is. :lol:
 
Last edited:
There is more to know than can ever be known.

I'm okay with knowing that I don't know much. And can enjoy learning more.

I'm NOT an apologist. I don't come up with good explanations. (Just in case you HADN'T noticed! ;) )

But I do enjoy learning.

On another note, here are some conversations that were very interesting to listen to about how Christianity and Atheism are both being questioned:




And, yes, I am learning. Every day. Maybe not a lot, but I do try to learn.
Sounds like you're too invested to leave your religion. Consider, if the truth were to expose your religion as a fraud in whole or part, would you be comfortable to leave it all behind? Leave all your religious friends and family behind too (who will likely turn on your back if you do leave). If the answer is No, then there is nothing to discuss. You have your cherry picked people and "data", as does everyone else. You still wouldn't want to leave your nest if the truth were to disagree with your religion. That's then a you problem. Nobody can help you.
 
Last edited:
It is a scientifically proven fact that there is nothing you can do that can't be done.

There's also nothing you can sing that can't be sung. How very true that is. :lol:
I was taught that there's nothing you can do that can't be dung, but I like yours better. :cheers:
 
nods sagely The longest journey is the distance between your head and your heart ❤️
The greatest traverse is the invisible dance from the symphony of a thought to the canvas of silence.
 
The greatest traverse is the invisible dance from the symphony of a thought to the canvas of silence.
Right then...

Within the hushed chambers of the mind, where whispers stir and ideas ignite, a grand odyssey unfolds. It is not a journey charted on maps, nor traversed by foot or ship, but rather a silent ballet played out in the theatre of imagination. For the greatest voyage, the most awe-inspiring exploration, is that which bridges the intangible abyss between the vibrant orchestra of thought and the tranquil expanse of unspoken expression.

Born from the embers of an unvoiced notion, a melody arises, wispy and nascent. It threads its way through the labyrinthine corridors of reason, weaving harmonies of insight and counterpoints of doubt. Like a conductor sculpting sound from an ensemble of instruments, the mind refines this nascent symphony, each thought a note, each nuance a brushstroke on the canvas of contemplation.

As the crescendo builds, emotions surge and clash, painting tapestries of joy and sorrow, fear and hope. The mind becomes a crucible, churning and refining the raw essence of these feelings, forging from them a unique and potent distillation. In this maelstrom of thought, the idea undergoes a metamorphosis, transforming from a nebulous spark into a fully formed entity, yearning for articulation.

Yet, the destination of this intellectual odyssey is not a bustling marketplace of words, but the serene sanctuary of silence. For it is in the quietude, in the unmarred stillness, that the symphony of thought truly finds its resonance. Each unspoken word carries the weight of a thousand uttered ones, each unpainted image reverberates with a thousand brushstrokes. The canvas of silence is vast and receptive, allowing the idea to breathe, to unfold in its uncluttered purity.

Thus, the greatest traverse is not one of outward exploration, but an inward pilgrimage. It is the invisible dance from the symphony of a thought to the canvas of silence, a delicate pirouette between the clamor of existence and the profound eloquence of the unsaid. It is in this hushed realm that the essence of an idea truly shines, unburdened by the limitations of expression and resonating with a power that transcends mere words.

Yes, that was AI
 
We all like dogs right? Well most of us do I'm sure, but why? Why is it that sometimes people grow bonds with their pets stronger than many of their so called human friendships? It's because animals are beings too just like we are, when you have a dog in the same room as you, you don't just have a pet with you. You have another one of you with you, just in the body of a dog instead of a human ;)
 
We all like dogs right? Well most of us do I'm sure, but why? Why is it that sometimes people grow bonds with their pets stronger than many of their so called human friendships? It's because animals are beings too just like we are, when you have a dog in the same room as you, you don't just have a pet with you. You have another one of you with you, just in the body of a dog instead of a human ;)
Spot of dyslexia there, champ?
 
We all like dogs right? Well most of us do I'm sure, but why? Why is it that sometimes people grow bonds with their pets stronger than many of their so called human friendships? It's because animals are beings too just like we are, when you have a dog in the same room as you, you don't just have a pet with you. You have another one of you with you, just in the body of a dog instead of a human ;)
Religious folk hate this one weird paragraph!!11!!!
 
You yourself are the perfect proof, more specifically your very own consciousness is all the proof you need.
I'm puzzled. If consciousness = soul, then someone who is unconscious... doesn't have a soul unless they become conscious again?
 
Roo
I'm puzzled. If consciousness = soul, then someone who is unconscious... doesn't have a soul unless they become conscious again?
"Someone" as in referring to the physical human being, and "unconscious" as in to referring to them not having any state of consciousness or awareness?

Well then, you have to be pretty specific with the words you use when asking these kinds of questions I suppose. When I said earlier that your own consciousness is all the proof that you really need, I was suggesting that whatever "we" really are, whether you call it the soul or in more modern Western terms consciousness, they both refer to the same thing essentially. I was suggesting that what you call "we" or "I" is more than merely these physical flesh bodies, and that we are essentially is something immaterial in it's nature.

When you look at it from this point of view, you have to look at your original question from a different point of view and perhaps ask yourself questions such as "What am I? If what I call 'I' is really what has been termed the soul or consciousness then 'I' must be that. 'I' am that something which is immaterial and thus has no physical form."

When you think of consciousness or the soul as being that something which is immaterial in nature, and not just this physical "someone" who we appear to be, then you can see how consciousness itself is beyond the physical "someone" and exists independently from the persons existence. You're seeing it from the point of view that the human would have "a soul", where as it's more like the soul temporarily has or wears "a human body". The person doesn't have a soul, the soul or consciousness has a person or physical body and it exists even when the person appears to be unconscious.
 
Last edited:
When you think of consciousness or the soul as being that something which is immaterial in nature, and not just this physical "someone" who we appear to be, then you can see how consciousness itself is beyond the physical "someone" and exists independently from the persons existence.
That doesn't really line up with the very clear correlation between consciousness and the brain. If you can influence conscious activity by influencing the brain that's a strong indication that the former relies on the latter.
 
Back