Do you believe in God?

[Sureboss]

I don't think the positives and negatives of god/religion are important, really. I'm far more interested in the actual explanations of various things, of which we knew nothing about at the time of the religious texts and thus none of them explain it.

Edit: Though this thread is now so similar to the creation vs evolution thread...

 

[Wolfe]

Danoff, could you explain this a little more, not sure I follow?

Scientists don't accept the answer, "because." Religious faith is based upon that very answer.

 

[homeforsummer]

The non-belief way of existence doesn't hedge any bets.

Let me pose a question.

I read the quoted sentence and thought, "non-believers don't need to hedge any bets, because if they don't believe in God, then the concept of heaven/hell is irrelevant".

But then, I thought about it more deeply. Let us assume there are four basic types of people in the world, irrelevant of religious beliefs:
- People who are inherently evil.
- People who lead a generally bad life, but do the occasional good deed.
- People who lead a generally good life, but occasionally mess up and do something bad.
- People who are inherently good.

Now obviously, there is going to be some leeway in all the categories above. But lets assume that there is a heaven and a hell, even if people don't believe in them. Does an inherently good person then get turned away at the gates of heaven because they didn't believe in God? What about someone who's basically led a bad life, but gone to confession each Sunday and therefore been forgiven of all his sins? Would the "bad" person gain entry to heaven and the "good" person be refused, in this situation?

Or do non-believers go into some kind of limbo? Assuming heaven and hell do exist, then surely everyone will go either one direction or the other, regardless of belief. An atheist dies to discover that heaven does actually exist... "crikey," they think "well, I guess I was wrong..." as they sink to hell watching people who've led more sinful lives sail past into heaven simply because they've believed in God and confessed their sins...

 

[TheCracker]

What about the positive elements that have shaped history by those who practice what Jesus teaches. Christians following Christ's teaching of “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” have established hospitals, welfare agencies, orphanages, charities, relief agencies, universities … and fought for prison reform, abolition of slavery, better education, and treatment for alcoholics.

But all of those things you've mentioned can and have been established without any religious intervention.

Let me pose a question.

I read the quoted sentence and thought, "non-believers don't need to hedge any bets, because if they don't believe in God, then the concept of heaven/hell is irrelevant".

But then, I thought about it more deeply. Let us assume there are four basic types of people in the world, irrelevant of religious beliefs:
- People who are inherently evil.
- People who lead a generally bad life, but do the occasional good deed.
- People who lead a generally good life, but occasionally mess up and do something bad.
- People who are inherently good.

Not disagreeing with any of your points. But. Nobody is either inherently evil or inherently good. They've all done some good or bad at some point in their life. I'd also say to some extent 'good' and 'evil' can be a matter of personal opinion. But yes, i also have issue with the whole 'if heaven exists, you'll only get there if you believe in God' thing too. An individual who lives just as productively 'good' life as a 'good' Christian is to be turned away for not believing in God? - sounds more like a members-only club to me. Rewards who you are rather than what you do.

 

[homeforsummer]

Not disagreeing with any of your points. But. Nobody is either inherently evil or inherently good. They've all done some good or bad at some point in their life. I'd also say to some extent 'good' and 'evil' can be a matter of personal opinion.

I agree, I was just using extremes to illustrate my point 👍

 

[Danoff]

**temptation...no.**
Danoff, could you explain this a little more, not sure I follow?

Ok, original statement:

I commend religious people who question their beliefs. But if they questioned their beliefs to the degree that scientists question their findings, they would not have faith.

Faith is insufficient evidence for science. Those are the rules. Nothing can be done about it. A religious person's beliefs are based upon faith. Again, those are the rules, nothing can be done about it. Therefore, if a religious person questioned their beliefs the way a scientist would, the rules dictate that faith is not allowed.

More simply:
Science does not allow faith, but religion requires it.

The conclusion that I draw from this is the following: "a religious person cannot question his beliefs sufficiently and still be religious". I define "sufficiently" as "as a scientist would question his findings". I'm sure you disagree about the use of the word "sufficiently" there but, as I have defined it, one cannot argue against that statement.

 

[barryl85]

No

 

[magburner]

I don't really see how a bunch of Bible verses explain what salvation is nor do I understand why a man dying and then coming back to life saves the people of the world. I've honestly never gotten a straight answer on why "Jesus died for us" although I am contently harassed by Bible thumpers to make me accept that.

As I have previously stated, I do not believe in God, but I do know why Jesus died on the cross. I only found that out this year, from a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses.

According to the bible, When God created Adam and Eve, they were perfect in every way, that is until Eve ate an apple from the tree. Apparently, If Eve had not eaten that apple, then all of human kind would of existed on earth as they supposedly will once the end of 'this system of things' has come to pass.

Because Eve was a perfect being, the only way for God to atone for that 'original sin', was for him to sacrifice his own son, Jesus Christ (who was also a perfect being). Once God had sacrificed his own son, it was then possible for humans to once again live in a heavenly paradise (though not in heaven itself).

Personally, I think that this is a load of old baloney! There are some obvious holes in the story.

Why did God cast Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden, for eating a single apple? I will agree that Eve went against Gods will, but that is still no grounds for expulsion from paradise. On top of that we have to remember that God cast Satan to the Earth from heaven, after a long and drawn out holy war in Heaven. If God had to go to those sort of lengths to remove Satan from his presence, then how could he let Satan dwell in paradise with the first two humans on Earth? I'm sure they would of fallen for every hook line and sinker known! It is also callous to condemn the whole of mankind for the sins of one individual, no matter what the crime. This is typical of God though. Throughout the bible we are presented with numerous acts of his barbarism, yet, we are told that he loves us all. How so?

Secondly, he did not sacrifice his son Jesus Christ. For crying out loud, the guy got up and walked out of his burial chamber, and then ascended back up to heaven! Talk about preferential treatment! When any of us mere mortals lose a loved one, they are lost and gone for ever. Not God though, he plays a charade for a weekend, then Jesus is right back up there with him, sitting at his side as if nothing has happened! If God wants us to believe that he made anything close to a real sacrifice, then Jesus should be long gone!

 

[Skynyrd1977]

Look at it this way:

• 2 Possibilities - Either God (from the Bible) DOES exist, or he DOESNT exist.
• 2 Choices - Either you choose to BELIEVE in Him, or you choose to NOT BELIEVE.

Pretty simple. This creates 4 scenarios.

1. If He DOES exist, and you choose to believe in Him and follow his rules, (which means as THE creator, He makes the rules, period (John 3:18)): ETERNITY IN HEAVEN
2. If He DOES exist, and you choose NOT to believe in Him, and you DON'T follow his rules, (John 3:18): ETERNITY IN HELL
3. If He DOES NOT exist, and you choose to believe in Him, doesn't really matter; PERMANENT LIGHTS OUT
4. If He DOES NOT exist, and you choose to NOT believe in Him, same thing; PERMANENT LIGHTS OUT

I like to point this out to those who have not decided which way they believe, because it is at least one good reason to start believing. It is usually after one makes the decision to believe, that God reveals Himself, and the evidence is clearer, if you always seek the truth.

Let me pose a question.

...Does an inherently good person then get turned away at the gates of heaven because they didn't believe in God? What about someone who's basically led a bad life, but gone to confession each Sunday and therefore been forgiven of all his sins? Would the "bad" person gain entry to heaven and the "good" person be refused, in this situation?

Or do non-believers go into some kind of limbo? Assuming heaven and hell do exist, then surely everyone will go either one direction or the other, regardless of belief. An atheist dies to discover that heaven does actually exist... "crikey," they think "well, I guess I was wrong..." as they sink to hell watching people who've led more sinful lives sail past into heaven simply because they've believed in God and confessed their sins...

I can only tell you what I believe; that God's word has always proven true in my life as I follow it. His Word says this ""For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"" (John 3:16).

It's really a brilliant plan, because acurately and fairly judging what good vs. bad a person does in their entire life, and determining where the pass/fail bar should be placed, is incomprehendable to us, where this plan makes sense after careful study.

...i also have issue with the whole 'if heaven exists, you'll only get there if you believe in God' thing too. An individual who lives just as productively 'good' life as a 'good' Christian is to be turned away for not believing in God? - sounds more like a members-only club to me. Rewards who you are rather than what you do.

Most people have difficulty or issues with certain doctrines because they just don't like them. This is natural, just as when we were very young and did not like some of the "rules" that we now endorse. But if God is real, and is fair, and is truth, and is pure love, and is total righteousness, and is all powerful, then eventually you can come to see that His rules makes sense.

...but don't try to save us from our non-belief.

Sorry Duke, but thats part of what we believe we are instructed to do.
Consider this; why would we not want to convince our friends that they can share an eternity of undescribable fun with us?

 

[Famine]

Look at it this way:

• 2 Possibilities - Either God (from the Bible) DOES exist, or he DOESNT exist.
• 2 Choices - Either you choose to BELIEVE in Him, or you choose to NOT BELIEVE.

Pretty simple. This creates 4 scenarios.

1. If He DOES exist, and you choose to believe in Him and follow his rules, (which means as THE creator, He makes the rules, period (John 3:18)): ETERNITY IN HEAVEN
2. If He DOES exist, and you choose NOT to believe in Him, and you DON'T follow his rules, (John 3:18): ETERNITY IN HELL
3. If He DOES NOT exist, and you choose to believe in Him, doesn't really matter; PERMANENT LIGHTS OUT
4. If He DOES NOT exist, and you choose to NOT believe in Him, same thing; PERMANENT LIGHTS OUT

I like to point this out to those who have not decided which way they believe, because it is at least one good reason to start believing.

I just want to check you meant to say this. It's a good reason to choose to believe in a particular supreme being, irrespective of data, in case they turn out to be real and when you die you can have a good time?

That's awful. And why, may I ask, do you not believe in the other gods in all the other holy books who make very similar promises?

 

[Sureboss]

I suppose I better start believing in Santa then, don't want to be killed by a ravenous horde of reindeer.

 

[Touring Mars]

Sounds like Pascal's wager to me... what I don't like about it is that it assumes that a mere belief in God is the only way to a pleasant future. No matter, then, that God-fearing (well, Allah-fearing) fundamentalists across the Middle East are wasting their lives, blowing themselves and whoever is near them to smithereens in the belief that they have a ticket to heaven. Meanwhile, an atheist doctor who saves lives on a daily basis working for Medicin Sans Frontier in war-torn Africa is doomed to an eternity of either hell or nothingness simply because he doesn't believe?

I prefer to think of Pascal's wager along similar lines to Richard Dawkins, who has challenged the notion that mere belief is the key to anything - is it not better to have lived a moral, fulfilling and useful life regardless of your own personal thoughts about what comes after than to commit appalling acts of abuse and cruelty, justified only by your own belief in your own righteousness?

If heaven does exist, and it is solely occupied by true believers regardless of their behaviour here on Earth, then you're damn right I don't want to be there.

 

[Sage]

And why, may I ask, do you not believe in the other gods in all the other holy books who make very similar promises?

Oooh! Ooooh! I know! I know!

Circumstances of birth.

 

[Skynyrd1977]

I just want to check you meant to say this. It's a good reason to choose to believe in a particular supreme being, irrespective of data, in case they turn out to be real and when you die you can have a good time?

That's awful.

Sorry you feel that way, I don't think it's awful, but thats what happens when I try to over simplify things. I think what you wrote is not what I'm saying, a more acurate statement would be this:

It's one good reason to choose to start believing initially, or at least fact finding (many people don't seek one way or another) in the God of the Bible, in case He is real so that when you die you won't suffer eternal pain.

​

In my case, I belive He is real, but in the case of an undecided person, He is not real, and so to me, any reason for an undecided seeker to ask Jesus to show himself to them can not be counted as bad.

And why, may I ask, do you not believe in the other gods in all the other holy books who make very similar promises?

You may ask. It was Jesus who turned my life around 180 degrees 31 years ago, and who consistently shaped my life since and proved His existance to me over and over. It wasn't Budha, or Mohammed, or anyone else. I was into drugs, gangs, fights, theft, prison, an overall thug and jerk. But deep inside everything I was doing I knew was wrong, and I didn't like myself. So I turned to Jesus, prayed and asked him to change me. He did. My life now is literally a Cinderella story, and it has all come from committing to follow what Jesus taught.

Sure there are lots of "good" teachers, teachings, and the like. Yes, there are other similar life changing stories attributed to others. But Jesus claimed to be God, he rose from the dead, and the witnesses have not stopped for over 2,000 years. I'm glad he made me one of them.

Always your friend, Tom.

 

[Biggles]

Look at it this way:
2 Possibilities - Either God (from the Bible) DOES exist, or he DOESNT exist.
2 Choices - Either you choose to BELIEVE in Him, or you choose to NOT BELIEVE.
Pretty simple. This creates 4 scenarios.
If He DOES exist, and you choose to believe in Him and follow his rules, (which means as THE creator, He makes the rules, period (John 3:18)): ETERNITY IN HEAVEN
If He DOES exist, and you choose NOT to believe in Him, and you DON'T follow his rules, (John 3:18): ETERNITY IN HELL
If He DOES NOT exist, and you choose to believe in Him, doesn't really matter; PERMANENT LIGHTS OUT
If He DOES NOT exist, and you choose to NOT believe in Him, same thing; PERMANENT LIGHTS OUT

Christians often like to talk about God as a "Father". As a parent myself, I can tell you I would be the worst father in the world if I condemned one of my children to (John 3:18): ETERNITY IN HELL for not following the "rules".

On that point alone, there is a bit of a credibility issue with your concept of God.

 

[Sage]

But deep inside everything I was doing I knew was wrong, and I didn't like myself. So I turned to Jesus, prayed and asked him to change me. He did. My life now is literally a Cinderella story, and it has all come from committing to follow what Jesus taught.

I think you’re shortchanging yourself by not giving yourself credit for that kind of transformation – it was your want to be good (whether or not good is defined by the Bible) that allowed you to change like that.

Sorry you feel that way, I don't think it's awful, but thats what happens when I try to over simplify things. I think what you wrote is not what I'm saying, a more acurate statement would be this:

It's one good reason to choose to start believing initially, or at least fact finding (many people don't seek one way or another) in the God of the Bible, in case He is real so that when you die you won't suffer eternal pain.

​

In my case, I belive He is real, but in the case of an undecided person, He is not real, and so to me, any reason for an undecided seeker to ask Jesus to show himself to them can not be counted as bad.

I don’t follow. You might want to read what Touring Mars just posted.

 

[Gil]

Gil, is that really the standard of proof for you? If one of those same people told you that they were taking an herbal organic pill that cured them of their ailment would you believe them?

At the risk of sounding sanctimonious, If that was the only thing changed in their life, and the symptoms of the problem went away, I would indeed.

For instance, I know that when I take Chondroiten (sp) my knee problems worsen. So I leave that crap alone.

If you pray, and you are healed, but don't really change anything else, what else is the "logical" conclusion?

 

[Klostrophobic]

God no. I pray to God that it doesn't exist.

One thing I do believe in is that people will argue amongst themselves about religion until we're all ****ing dead. And then we'll know for certain who was right. And that it didn't matter because now we're all dead.

 

[Joey D]

If you pray, and you are healed, but don't really change anything else, what else is the "logical" conclusion?

A lot of it may be in your head, if you think you are being healed or at least bettering your condition then your body seems to respond. I think many forms of illness have a metal factor to them. If prayer helps you achieve this then by all means use it.

I have a really bad right knee that was damaged several years ago. It flares up with extreme pain about once a month, although if I wear a knee brace during that time it seems much better. Countless doctors have told me though that the brace does nothing for me though. I believe it's purely a mental thing.

This is nothing more then me speculating though, and really that's all we can do as this would be very hard to prove since you could make a case for both sides.

 

[OZZYGT]

I think you’re shortchanging yourself by not giving yourself credit for that kind of transformation – it was your want to be good (whether or not good is defined by the Bible) that allowed you to change like that.

It was obviously his want to change, that made him try to reach Jesus. No Christian prospers by just being a couch potato and asking God to give him a fortune. You have to work for it, and faith is the main ingredient.

Only wanting something will not necessarily create that change. There are drug addicts, and alcoholics who cannot escape their addiction. Some of them spend months, even years in rehabilitation programs in order to completely "heal" themselves. Whereas in my personal experience, I've met and seen people with these problems, completely changed after a short amount of time (say, 2 months) because they reached the Lord, and they had the faith in Him.

That is the power of faith.

 

[TopHat]

I say that faith is all well and good just as long as it doesn't cloud your judgment. If you can still accept modern science while having a spiritual connection with a higher being/force of nature/community, (I'm in the supportive spiritual community camp myself) why not? I know that without my religion* of Unitarian Universalism, I wouldn't be half the person I am now.

*- You don't have to believe in a god of any sort, its really a spiritual support thing for me. It helps me feel centered. Also we have these things called Cons for us in High School. It's basically just a weekend of being with your closest friends, all while making new ones. Just wanted to share.

 

[Voltaire]

If God doesn't exist we would create him anyways.

 

[Sureboss]

You may ask. It was Jesus who turned my life around 180 degrees 31 years ago, and who consistently shaped my life since and proved His existance to me over and over. It wasn't Budha, or Mohammed, or anyone else. I was into drugs, gangs, fights, theft, prison, an overall thug and jerk. But deep inside everything I was doing I knew was wrong, and I didn't like myself. So I turned to Jesus, prayed and asked him to change me. He did. My life now is literally a Cinderella story, and it has all come from committing to follow what Jesus taught.

Sage has said this but you have identified who started to turn your life around, it was you. Did he turn to you? No, you instigated the whole process. Firstly by realising that what you were doing was wrong, be it morally or for your life in the long term. You changed yourself, not Jesus, but you attribute your turnaround to Jesus because you underestimate your own strength of determination.

 

[Mark T]

It's one good reason to choose to start believing initially, or at least fact finding (many people don't seek one way or another) in the God of the Bible, in case He is real so that when you die you won't suffer eternal pain.

​

This is where religion really grinds on me. Why should I have to believe in God in order to secure myself a pain free after life? If I live an honest life, respecting people and working hard, looking after my family and generally being a good citizen, that should be enough to grant me entry to heaven.​

 

[Sureboss]

All after life is pain free.

 

[Famine]

This is where religion really grinds on me. Why should I have to believe in God in order to secure myself a pain free after life? If I live an honest life, respecting people and working hard, looking after my family and generally being a good citizen, that should be enough to grant me entry to heaven.

No, what you need to do is believe in God, on the off-chance that heaven is real. And then you can spend forever doing whatever you like, even if it's stuff that'd get you sent to prison down here.

Because a supreme being would be real happy that you believed in it just in case it existed.

 

[BayConRong]

Because a supreme being would be real happy that you believed in it just in case it existed.

It sounds like your being sarcastic.

why would a "supreme being" care if you believed he exists in the first place? he knows he exists and if he's petty enough to care whether or not you exist I wouldn't pray to him whatsoever.

 

[Sureboss]

Ask the people who put that not believing in God is a sin in the bible.

 

[Danoff]

I say that faith is all well and good just as long as it doesn't cloud your judgment.

Faith = Clouded Judgment

The definition of faith is belief without sufficient reason to believe.

If you can still accept modern science while having a spiritual connection with a higher being/force of nature/community, why not?

Because you don't have a reason to?

I know that without my religion* of Unitarian Universalism, I wouldn't be half the person I am now.

Why? Because it helps you make friends? You don't need religion to have friends.

 

[TopHat]

Faith = Clouded Judgment

The definition of faith is belief without sufficient reason to believe.
[/QUOTE]

That's the thing about "my" religion - you don't need to have faith. For most people its just a "People are good, so be good m'kay?" sort of thing. They have an ad campaign going around: "Is GOD keeping you from going to church?"

Why? Because it helps you make friends? You don't need religion to have friends.

...Helps me feel centered...

While friendship is an important part of it for me, it's also an identity and I feel good about being a part of it. The experiences I have drawn from my participation in the community has made me a better person!