Joey D
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Do you believe in God?
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I think a lot of Atheists will agree that a certain 'force' created the world than a certain 'being'. Because with a 'force', it just happened. Put a name to that force (like 'being' or God) and then people think it's all this supernatural weirdo stuff when there's some guy flying high in the sky who knows when we lie and can make us die etc.
But why call it a god and not GravityX-Retro or something linked to science and not something that is linked to religion and myth. There might be a force that can create a lot of stuff in an amazing way ie the universe or it's base instructions and laws. But it does not have to create any morals, which is where all the god and religion stuff comes in.
Or do you believe that this something also creates invisible morality which humans must choose to absorb and obey? Or ignore and be naughty, But of which cats and hamsters don't need to bother they are fine, for now unless they evolve in the future in which case they must also pray and obey and not be peados. Vegetables and flowers, your safe.
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I guess that's possible. But wouldn't the chances of that happening (gravity -> Big Bang -> Right Temperature -> Life on earth) be tiny?
Very, hence the reason we struggle to find ourselves anywhere else (So far). But of course you now have to wonder, what initiated that gravity (If indeed it was gravity) in such a way that it actually created everything in existence? And that question will go back on itself to infinity.
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dylansan
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The odds of humans coming into existence on this planet at this time are almost infinitely small. But the odds of life appearing on a planet somewhere are very high. We came into existence by chance, but that doesn't mean we are lucky. It just means this is the life that happened, as opposed to other life that was just as likely to come about.I guess that's possible
Danoff
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I guess that's possible
Apparently the odds of our laws of physics existing in the presence of the big bang, and a planet forming at the right distance from a star and having the right chemical composition and life originating from that and intelligent life originating from that are nearly guaranteed.
It's all about sample size. According to some physicists, there were nearly an infinite number of universes with an infinite number of laws of physics, and an infinite number of big bags occurred within those. The universes with the stable laws of physics existed for more than a microsecond. Of those universes with stable laws of physics, there are billions of opportunities for a world to develop life, and intelligent life. If you have a multitude of opportunities, an unlikely event will happen. We are the apparent result of just lots and lots and lots and lots of opportunities for this to happen.
Joey D
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But I think most atheist's would agree that the force is within this realm and not of the supernatural.
All I'm throwing out there is that something might exist that we label as god but is nothing more then an undiscovered force that science hasn't uncovered. It wasn't exactly stated to be a sound theory.
Religion is not the same thing as God.
Religion is the morals and how one should live their life according to how they think their God wants. God is just the overseer in the universe. You can easily believe in God and not be a part of any religion, just as you can follow the morals of a religion and not believe in God. I know an atheist who follows the teachings of Christianity because she thinks it's a good message in which to live her life by.
But why not call it god is a better question? Who is God? The common definition I see is the supernatural creator and overseer of the universe. If it's a force that does just that, then why can't we call it God?
That probability is quite high life is on other planets, when you think about the vast number of planets out there the odds of having some type of life on them become quite high. Plus let's just say God did create everything in the universe, why would he make something so vast just to fill one tiny rock with life?
And I might be off base here, but didn't the Catholic church even say alien life doesn't go against the Bible?
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I guess that's possible
Take a deck of cards and toss them into the air. OMG!!! Do you what the odds are that they landed in that particular way? Try it again and again, you'll never repeat it in a million years. The "chances" of the way they landed on your first toss was tiny. But it happened.
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No, it does not. Until we completely understand how and when life forms, there is no way to tell. Here's an example. I spill a bag of marbles (The spill representing the big bang and the marbles representing planets). Upon cleaning them up, I find a penny among them. I can't say for certain whether or not I'll find more pennies until I determine exactly how the first penny came to be there among the marbles in the first place.
I'm not really sure, but I have nothing against it.
Would be wrong to name it as an entity until it introduces itself formally at a party. Something that creates also does not have to oversee.
Why call a force God when god means so may things. It would be the worst thing to call it, unless it was a joke at the expense of those with faith, just like the so-called God-particle.
The Catholic church and other churches change their mind every few days alongside the developments of science, but while still maintaining their superiority. I expect in some form they will exist in the future and say ah yes the Bible does permit the citizens of Universe Beta to mingle with our own, but not on a Sunday.
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Nah I don't disapprove or approve of anything...you make little sense really I just said a phrase as a joke and you blow it up to fit you. Wow yes you got me by twisting it to fit you good job pal, but lets be honest I called you out for being a troll on another thread and your probably still pissed. y u mad?
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It seems to be that alot of non believers that I see here or at the college/university wish to jump on thiest about the bible and christian beliefs which is always annoying cause you're jumping to conclusions which I understand why...there is alot of them. Still I see what you mean here...I ask the same why does this thread jump to the idea it's a christian god that all theist believe, when the title is vague and just says god in general.
Joey D
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Y'all might enjoy this: (28 minutes - grab a coffee)
http://www.youtube.com/user/skydivephil?feature=mhum
.
http://www.youtube.com/user/skydivephil?feature=mhum
.
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Beaten to it.
Bit of a typo there, but I see your point. However, if we have nothing to go by, how can we know? We know the universe probably came from the big bang, but was life a two in one deal?
It's not based off nothing, it's based off string theory and quantum physics. Have you ever heard that if we had enough information, we could predict with 100% certainty the roll of a die, but we could never predict which way an electron would go after passing through a diffraction grating?
Quantum particle are random in nature, their position, velocity, etc can't be predicted. They randomly take on values when the wave function of the particle collapses.
Some videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q_GQqUg6Ts
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The closer to infinity you get, the closer to one (ergo: 100%) the probability of anything occuring gets.
The formation of organic molecules and materials is not rare. In fact, the entire solar system is laced with simple organic molecules.
The formation of life from these organics requires a peculiar set of circumstances, but the reason life can form from organics is because they're like molecular lego blocks. They fit together in certain ways, which constrains the geometry of structures made from them.
Heck... they're better than lego blocks, since they're easier to fit together... more like magnetic snap-together building sets.
In other words... given billions upon billions of years, and billions upon billions of interactions between organics... the chances that this:
Will eventually form one of these:
Becomes more and more and more likely.
It's not like it's only on earth that you find hydrocarbons and amino acids. They've been found on comets and other bodies in the solar system, too. And once you have building blocks this complex, more complex forms can follow. [/B]
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We're not even certain if life needs to be based on a carbon chemical system either. Add some possibilities of silicon life and other hypothesized chemical systems in there and the chances improve further still. (Perhaps carbon is needed for sentient life, but life is life.)
Still very unlikely if these life-forms will ever meet each other though, with our current level of understanding and technology at least.
Still very unlikely if these life-forms will ever meet each other though, with our current level of understanding and technology at least.
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While I do believe that other molecules may form the basis of alien life... carbon is just so... convenient... the elegant geometries of the carbon atom make it much easier to build complex yet repeatable organic molecules from.
While it's possible to theorize a system based on silicon, and maybe even propose the shape some silicon organic molecules would take, we still have seen no evidence of these occuring... I would think that if silicon life were possible, we would see evidence of complex silicon organiccs in our own solar system similar to the hydrocarbons and aminos that seem to be everywhere... Or it could be possible that silicon life almost got started here but lost out in the end to carbon life simply because carbon is superior.
Again... with a near-infinite universe (and possibly infinity times infinity multiverses), anything that is even remotely possible should eventually come about.
Like you said, we'll probably never know.
Though I doubt we will ever find out the truth about the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
While it's possible to theorize a system based on silicon, and maybe even propose the shape some silicon organic molecules would take, we still have seen no evidence of these occuring... I would think that if silicon life were possible, we would see evidence of complex silicon organiccs in our own solar system similar to the hydrocarbons and aminos that seem to be everywhere... Or it could be possible that silicon life almost got started here but lost out in the end to carbon life simply because carbon is superior.
Again... with a near-infinite universe (and possibly infinity times infinity multiverses), anything that is even remotely possible should eventually come about.
Like you said, we'll probably never know.
Though I doubt we will ever find out the truth about the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
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So some people believe in God and think that they're right, and others don't believe in God and think that they're right?
Thanks for clearing that up, would have never got it without you
And for the record I did read all your posts. They all said essentially the same thing, which is that God either exists or he doesn't. From a conversation point of view, that's sitting on the fence, as you're clearly unwilling to state why you believe he exists:
We already know that either God exists or he doesn't (it's like saying that a light is either on or off - they're the only two possible scenarios), the whole idea of the thread is for people to discuss why they think he exists or he doesn't.
I'm aware that God isn't like cheese, thanks for clearing that one up too.
My point was that your response was like saying someone either does or doesn't like cheese. I.e, obvious.
Let me pose a question then, given that you believe in God:
Why?
I guess that's possible
That's the beauty of an infinite universe.
It doesn't matter whether the chances of something happening are incredibly small, because they're still probable. In a truly infinite universe, there'll be two people identical to us having this exact same discussion.
And that's the beauty of an infinite sample size. Given an infinite number of possibilities, the chances of something happening are 1. If something can happen, it will.
You're failing to understand the nature of infinity. If something can happen, it will. There is other life out there, because there is zero chance of there not being other life.
This always amuses me slightly that people are prepared to believe in an all-seeing being who created everything, but the concept that in an infinite universe everything is possible is assumed to be impossible...
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You'd then surely have to ask yourself how a creator came about? It's either by the very same principle you cannot get to grips with, or the creator has always existed. I think a creator always having existed is surely as difficult, if not more so, to get to grips with than chance and endless possibilities for that chance to become a reality?
This could go here or creation thread, but it's active discussion right now:
Unique planet
Some astronomers believe life is almost inevitable on any habitable planet. Others suspect simple life is common, but intelligent life exceedingly rare. A few believe that our planet is unique. "Life may or may not form easily," says physicist Paul Davies of Arizona State University in Tempe. "We're completely in the dark."
So much for equations. What about evidence? Finding life on Mars probably won't help, as it would very likely share its origin with Earthlings. "Impacts have undoubtedly conveyed microorganisms back and forth," says Davies. "Mars and Earth are not independent ecosystems."
Discovering life on Titan would be more revealing. Titan is the only other place in the solar system with liquid on its surface - albeit lakes of ethane. "We are starting to think that if there is life on Titan it would have a separate origin," says Dirk Schulze-Makuch at Washington State University in Pullman. "If we can find a separate origin we can say 'OK, there's a lot of life in the universe'."
Discovering alien microbes in our solar system would be some sort of proof that we are not alone, but what we really want to know is whether there is another intelligence out there. For 50 years astronomers have swept the skies with radio telescopes for any hint of a message. So far, nothing.
But that doesn't mean ET isn't there. It just might not know we're here. The only evidence of our existence that reaches beyond the solar system are radio signals and light from our cities. "We've only been broadcasting powerful radio signals since the second world war," says Seth Shostak of the SETI Institute in Mountain View, California. So our calling card has leaked just 70 light years into space, a drop in the ocean. If the Milky Way was the size of London and Earth was at the base of Nelson's Column, our radio signals would still not have left Trafalgar Square.
"It's probably safe to say that even if the local galaxy is choc-a-bloc with aliens, none of them know that Homo sapiens is here," says Shostak. That also works in reverse. Given the size of the universe and the speed of light, most stars and planets are simply out of range.
It is also possible that intelligent life is separated from us by time. After all, human intelligence has only existed for a minuscule fraction of Earth's history and may just be a fleeting phase. It may be too much of a stretch to hope that a nearby planet not only harbours intelligent life, but that it does so right now.
But let's say we did make contact with aliens. How would we react? NASA has plans, and most religions claim they would be able to absorb the idea, but the bottom line is we won't know until it happens.
Most likely we'll never find out. Even if Earth is not the only planet with intelligent life, we appear destined to live out our entire existence as if it were - but with a nagging feeling that it can't be. How's that for existential uncertainty?
By Lawrence Krauss
Unique planet
Some astronomers believe life is almost inevitable on any habitable planet. Others suspect simple life is common, but intelligent life exceedingly rare. A few believe that our planet is unique. "Life may or may not form easily," says physicist Paul Davies of Arizona State University in Tempe. "We're completely in the dark."
So much for equations. What about evidence? Finding life on Mars probably won't help, as it would very likely share its origin with Earthlings. "Impacts have undoubtedly conveyed microorganisms back and forth," says Davies. "Mars and Earth are not independent ecosystems."
Discovering life on Titan would be more revealing. Titan is the only other place in the solar system with liquid on its surface - albeit lakes of ethane. "We are starting to think that if there is life on Titan it would have a separate origin," says Dirk Schulze-Makuch at Washington State University in Pullman. "If we can find a separate origin we can say 'OK, there's a lot of life in the universe'."
Discovering alien microbes in our solar system would be some sort of proof that we are not alone, but what we really want to know is whether there is another intelligence out there. For 50 years astronomers have swept the skies with radio telescopes for any hint of a message. So far, nothing.
But that doesn't mean ET isn't there. It just might not know we're here. The only evidence of our existence that reaches beyond the solar system are radio signals and light from our cities. "We've only been broadcasting powerful radio signals since the second world war," says Seth Shostak of the SETI Institute in Mountain View, California. So our calling card has leaked just 70 light years into space, a drop in the ocean. If the Milky Way was the size of London and Earth was at the base of Nelson's Column, our radio signals would still not have left Trafalgar Square.
"It's probably safe to say that even if the local galaxy is choc-a-bloc with aliens, none of them know that Homo sapiens is here," says Shostak. That also works in reverse. Given the size of the universe and the speed of light, most stars and planets are simply out of range.
It is also possible that intelligent life is separated from us by time. After all, human intelligence has only existed for a minuscule fraction of Earth's history and may just be a fleeting phase. It may be too much of a stretch to hope that a nearby planet not only harbours intelligent life, but that it does so right now.
But let's say we did make contact with aliens. How would we react? NASA has plans, and most religions claim they would be able to absorb the idea, but the bottom line is we won't know until it happens.
Most likely we'll never find out. Even if Earth is not the only planet with intelligent life, we appear destined to live out our entire existence as if it were - but with a nagging feeling that it can't be. How's that for existential uncertainty?
By Lawrence Krauss
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No, it really is not like that at all. You make it sound simple when; a) It is much more complex than that, and b) We cannot properly describe the entire process because we do not know exactly how life forms. This is science, where we can be so close to being right and then discover we're actually not as close as we thought. So until we know how life forms, we can't say. I'm not saying this from a "God put us here" view. I'm saying this based on what we know.
Why infinite? I'm not saying it isn't an extremely large number, but the universe is only so big, isn't it?
Until you explain your first statement about why there is "infinity", I can't accept this.
Well assuming time didn't exist before the universe, it would make sense that something could have always been. (But every time I try to think about it, I have to ask who made God, and who made the person who made God, and so on)
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Probability is a valid part of science. Even if the chance of life was only .0001% for each planet, the chance that every planet except Earth is barren would be
.99999^number of planets in a given system - 1
P(no life)
For our solar system - 0.999930002099965000349997900007
For 20000 planets - 0.81872993434217990542903713276081
For .25% of our galaxy (est 2 planets for every star) - 1.1666274670707619383279408087633e-8686
The universe is finite as far as we know. But reality is not. See Danoff's post and the second video in my last post.
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