Do you believe in God?

[Sam48]

The numbers are high enough that it's almost a statistical certainty.

A key word, "almost". In science, "almost" doesn't cut it.

Did you see my example on the last page? Even if the odds of a planet sustaining life are a trillionth of a percent, that still leaves 100 million planets with life just within the observable universe - not even the entire universe.

Since we already know that life is possible, the chances of other life existing are essentially 1.

Odds and numbers are irrelevant in this situation. What we know is. (We just haven't got it all down yet)

Yes, we know this for certain. It is mathematics. Fix the odds at a non-zero number, raise the sample-size to infinity, you are guaranteed that it will occur (an infinite number of times actually).

And what if we're it? You can't prove there is anything other than us, however, you can produce some very impressive numbers, but that's about it.



@Flynn77- That's what I was like when I first posted here about two years ago. Although you'll probably stay a christian, like me, you'll learn a great deal of stuff as well. Just try not to be arrogant or ignorant about it. It gets you no where here.

 

[Moot]

Believing is easier than thinking; that's why there will always be more believers than thinkers.

That's a funny thought that, as I can't imagine it being easy to believe in anything, maybe their is a belief gene? I don't have it.
I wish I could know what it feels like to believe in something, because it must feel kind of interesting.
That's why I have trouble thinking so many millions of people believe in god, I still imagine they are just saying they do, or want to, but really they don't know.

 

[PeterJB]

Believing is easier than thinking; that's why there will always be more believers than thinkers.


Most people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. (Bertrand Russell)

You really need to stop. Just because (I'm guessing) your experience of religion wasn't particularly fulfilling, doesn't mean that it must be wrong, and that all believers have not done "critical thinking". You really do make some very sweeping generalisations of the beliefs of over 5 billion people. Clearly you never acquired the ability to think that maybe there is more to the world than just what we see. Yes, some people do acquire their faith from their parents somewhat, but then there are also many who turn towards thiesm in later life.

You can prove neither the existence or the non-existence of God, none of us can. So if I were you, I would stop pre-judging all thiests and just let people believe what they want.

 

[Sam48]

You can prove neither the existence or the non-existence of God, none of us can. So if I were you, I would stop pre-judging all thiests and just let people believe what they want.

In a way, I have to agree. I understand you're stance, but it doesn't mean you have be on everyone else's about it.

 

[Tic Tach]

...maybe their is a belief gene?

Book.

 

[Danoff]

And what if we're it? You can't prove there is anything other than us, however, you can produce some very impressive numbers, but that's about it.

The point was aimed at answering how likely it is that we're here. Some have claimed that we're remarkably unlikely. There are two things that matter in determining how likely we are. One is how likely it is that intelligent life results from a toss of the dice. The other is how often the dice are tossed. We don't know either one.

What we do know is that the dice are tossed a lot.... like... astronomically a lot. My point is simply that as that the higher that number, the greater the likelyhood of us being here. In fact, if we toss the dice enough, we're guaranteed to be here.

 

[Villain]

You can prove neither the existence or the non-existence of God, none of us can. So if I were you, I would stop pre-judging all thiests and just let people believe what they want.

Everyone can believe what they want, however I don't think it's unfair to logically (and politely) question the beliefs of others. Especially here, as that is what this thread is all about.

You might want to tone down your sensitivity meter.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You really need to stop. Just because (I'm guessing) your experience of religion wasn't particularly fulfilling, doesn't mean that it must be wrong, and that all believers have not done "critical thinking". You really do make some very sweeping generalisations of the beliefs of over 5 billion people. Clearly you never acquired the ability to think that maybe there is more to the world than just what we see. Yes, some people do acquire their faith from their parents somewhat, but then there are also many who turn towards thiesm in later life.

You can prove neither the existence or the non-existence of God, none of us can. So if I were you, I would stop pre-judging all thiests and just let people believe what they want.

I have to agree with Peter, some of the atheist in here complain about how religious people sometimes force religion upon their children; yet the flip side is that any time a person brings up they believe in god. Tic Tac is pushing the aethist agenda down their throats. Which in the end makes you look a bit contradictory, as if the religious have taken the wrong path. I've said it before that you seem more like a troll to invoke some kind of reaction in the least positive sense. You only replying to this thread shows, if your going to sway people how about doing it the non-troll route.

 

[Tic Tach]

You really need to stop.

Why? Am I making too much sense?

Just because (I'm guessing) your experience of religion wasn't particularly fulfilling, doesn't mean that it must be wrong...

Your guess is wrong. My experience within the church was pretty good actually. It was a great social outlet, and that sense of community & belonging was awesome. But like I said earlier, I just cared more about what is true over what is comforting. But you're correct, the truth factor of christianity has nothing to do with my experience good or bad, I'm just trying to offer some reasoned material to display that it is likely untrue.

..and that all believers have not done "critical thinking".

No, I maintain that stance, if a person had employed critical thinking along with intellectual honesty, they would not be a christian. I know that doesn't sit well in this Oprah-infected politically correct cesspool that is so prevelant now-a-days, but that's the way I see it.

Clearly you never acquired the ability to think that maybe there is more to the world than just what we see.

I've thought about this more than you can comprehend, and I've come to where the evidence leads, to a naturalistic viewpoint. Yes, there does appear to be more than what we see, they're calling it dark matter.

Yes, some people do acquire their faith from their parents somewhat, but then there are also many who turn towards thiesm in later life.

No. The vast majority get it from their parents, and this is fully explainable in evolutionary terms, as we are programmed to listen to and believe our parents. Very few turn towards religion later in life, and if they do, you find that it's for very poor reasons (emotional, end of their rope, loneliness and many more).

You can prove neither the existence or the non-existence of God, none of us can.

Ugh, not this again. Haven't you beeen listening? The burden of "proof" is on the claim-maker. Please get that.

So if I were you, I would stop pre-judging all thiests and just let people believe what they want.

Pre-judging?!? Look, the guy said this:

I believe in God and that's all there is to it. No need to read anything else in this thread, my mind is made up.

That, my friend, is shameful. It's not worthy of coddling, it's worthy of mockery, and the accomodation of such comments just keeps us in a stunted and impoverished place.



(gotta go for a while)

 

[ALP1986]

its interesting to reflect on the current vote results:

Believers: 29%
Agnostics: 20%
Atheists: 51%

Promising numbers, especially from a US dominated message board.

 

[Moot]

I have to agree with Peter, some of the atheist in here complain about how religious people sometimes force religion upon their children; yet the flip side is that any time a person brings up they believe in god. Tic Tac is pushing the aethist agenda down their throats. Which in the end makes you look a bit contradictory, as if the religious have taken the wrong path. I've said it before that you seem more like a troll to invoke some kind of reaction in the least positive sense. You only replying to this thread shows, if your going to sway people how about doing it the non-troll route.

Are you obsessed by trolls?
You are still using it to stop people discussing their views in their own style on the forum?

its interesting to reflect on the current vote results:

Believers: 29%
Agnostics: 20%
Atheists: 51%

Promising numbers, especially from a US dominated message board.

That's a 29% 71% split in my view, undecided people do not believe in god at the current time.
And I think that anyone who is aware that they are undecided, will never believe in god. Because they are thinkers not believers. They will need evidence of a god, and if god is found in the universe or somewhere after all, then it's no longer a question of belief. Even religious people and believers would no longer be called believers they would be acknowledgers, just like all the atheists would be, atheists would turn into acknowledgers, because they accept things based on testable evidence.

 

[Sam48]

There are two things that matter in determining how likely we are. One is how likely it is that intelligent life results from a toss of the dice. The other is how often the dice are tossed. We don't know either one.

What we do know is that the dice are tossed a lot.... like... astronomically a lot.

So which is it?

My point is simply that as that the higher that number, the greater the likelyhood of us being here. In fact, if we toss the dice enough, we're guaranteed to be here.

Not guaranteed, but pretty darn likely, I'll say that.

 

[Jay.]

Book.

This is all I see on nearly every page lately.
I thought the idea of this thread was to discuss peoples opinions and views.
Not to keep throwing books at everyone trying to convince them to believe.
I will never believe in God, but some of the posts in here do provide an interesting read, including yours.

You can prove neither the existence or the non-existence of God, none of us can.

Ugh, not this again. Haven't you beeen listening? The burden of "proof" is on the claim-maker. Please get that.

"The burden of 'proof' is on the claim-maker" - Crap.
It is your choice what you believe in, and most will not try to change that.
To me that statement is crap. That is my belief.
I believe that neither existence or non-existence of God can be proven, like many others but you still seem set on trying to persuade us otherwise.

So if I were you, I would stop pre-judging all thiests and just let people believe what they want.

Pre-judging?!? Look, the guy said this:

"I believe in God and that's all there is to it. No need to read anything else in this thread, my mind is made up."

That, my friend, is shameful. It's not worthy of coddling, it's worthy of mockery, and the accomodation of such comments just keeps us in a stunted and impoverished place.

Why is his belief "shameful" and "worthy of mockery"?
He believes what he wants. I applaud him for that but you want to mock him and judge him, yet his beliefs are similar to yours.

People will always believe what they want to believe, it will never change.
So please stop throwing your books and judgments at people just because their beliefs are different and they have different opinions.

 

[Moot]

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to genetically modify the human genome to get rid of faith? Human version 2.0?
I mean do apes have faith, does an orang-utan in the tropical rain with a a leaf held over his head ponder his existence or does he just feel magically warm at his conviction of faith in god and his saviour and the afterlife, or is he just thinking banana or no banana, that is the question?

I'm sure we could have a good go at manipulating our genome and check the results. Out of a 1000 test subjects if we can get over half as ponderers, the rest as banana hunters we are onto a winner.

But the thing is, would there be a world war? How would integration work?
It can be possible to genetically make interbreeding impossible.
It would be like Neanderthals versus Homo-Sapiens.
I don't know what would happen.
I just had the thought, I feel like i'm playing God.

Also morally, to create a new species that does not create/form belief convictions does not presume an attack or refusal to accept the existing faith species. It's just a developmental experiment. If it does lead to a world war, then that's both your species fault not mine!
So don't come running to me when your all dead.

 

[Villain]

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to genetically modify the human genome to get rid of faith? Human version 2.0?

 

[niky]

No, it really is not like that at all. You make it sound simple when; a) It is much more complex than that, and b) We cannot properly describe the entire process because we do not know exactly how life forms. This is science, where we can be so close to being right and then discover we're actually not as close as we thought. So until we know how life forms, we can't say. I'm not saying this from a "God put us here" view. I'm saying this based on what we know.

The question is how complicated it really is.

The geometry of the carbon atom... with its four valence electrons... allows it to form certain bonds... certain bonds, are in fact, inevitable... and organic precursors are apparently prevalent throughout the observable universe. They're as inevitable as tangling hair. From there, the tricky part is creating RNA, DNA and organisms, but research teams are starting to produce these in simulated laboratory conditions.

Of course, we can't observe the generation of these structures in nature as we can in the laboratory... but they show it's possible... then we start talking about those trillions upon trillions of potential candidate planets... billions upon billions that will have the proper liquid water surface and organic contaminants... and tens of billions of years for those to react, form long-chain molecules and eventually life.

You cannot say it's impossible. Because we are obvious examples of how possible it is. Each discrete step is possible and observable. It just takes a lot of steps. The big question is whether it has happened elsewhere nearby enough, fully enough and at the right time for us to have contact with alien life as intelligent as us.

It may seem, then, that carbon-based life is inevitable. There is much philosophizing on the wonder of this Universe, built with exactly the right laws to allow carbon-life to form.

In fact, it only strengthens the conviction of some of divine intervention... that there's a God who created this Universe in such a way as to allow us to exist... though there are those who point out, cynically, that it's possible that such conditions might not hold true of all the universes out there, and the reason this one is so suited is simply because it is.

 

[Flynn77]

Pre-judging?!? Look, the guy said this:

I believe in God and that's all there is to it. No need to read anything else in this thread, my mind is made up.

That, my friend, is shameful. It's not worthy of coddling, it's worthy of mockery, and the accomodation of such comments just keeps us in a stunted and impoverished place.

Wow. Someone sure is unsure of himself.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Does anyone think it would be a good idea to genetically modify the human genome to get rid of faith? Human version 2.0?
I mean do apes have faith, does an orang-utan in the tropical rain with a a leaf held over his head ponder his existence or does he just feel magically warm at his conviction of faith in god and his saviour and the afterlife, or is he just thinking banana or no banana, that is the question?

Yes, if you could take the ability to have faith from Man you would get monkeys.

And, about monkeys, since none are believers, I'd risk it that according to the faith Tic Tach preaches here, they should be thinkers.

 

[Jay.]

Yes, if you could take the ability to have faith from Man you would get monkeys.

And, about monkeys, since none are believers, I'd risk it that according to the faith Tic Tach preaches here, they should be thinkers.

An intelligent monkey?

Well this guy helped land a space-craft on the moon.

 

[Hun200kmh]

You want the Earth populated by THINKERS? And I do mean really perfect ones, freed from the infamous ...

Do you??



Then, forget Evolution, think Revolution!

Here's the perfect thinker

Don't you just love sci-fi?

 

[Moot]

Nothing beats Sci-Fi
In no particular order:
Star Trek
Alien
Bible
Wind in the Willows
God
Harry Potter

 

[Sam48]

The question is how complicated it really is.

You cannot say it's impossible. Because we are obvious examples of how possible it is.

I agree with that. I only dis-agree when people put numbers on it. That you can't yet do.

 

[niky]

Nothing beats Sci-Fi
In no particular order:
Star Trek
Alien
Bible
Wind in the Willows
God
Harry Potter

Ugh. Star Trek. Comic book pseudo-science. Harry Potter is terrible magic, too.

A tenet of believable fiction... make it self-consistent. And neither is very self-consistent.

 

[Moot]

Ugh. Star Trek. Comic book pseudo-science. Harry Potter is terrible magic, too.

A tenet of believable fiction... make it self-consistent. And neither is very self-consistent.

Very good.

 

[Tic Tach]

This is all I see on nearly every page lately.

Or, one might view it as: "Gee, this guy sure is resourceful".

I thought the idea of this thread was to discuss peoples opinions and views.

That's pretty much what is happening. It might not always be flowers and hugging kittens, but that's the nature of the beast.

Not to keep throwing books at everyone trying to convince them to believe.

Why do you phrase it like that? Throwing books at everyone? Really? Do you feel that's accurate? The guy said that he wonders if there's a god gene; I provide a one-word link which deals with that and you belly-ache? Dude, this is the internet, and the amazing and efficient way of communicating and linking to other information is truly what makes it so great. Imagine that we were talking about some other topic; you'd likely think: "Great, more information - thanks!" but I find that whenever the topic is religion, some people have a hissy fit. I don't get that.

I believe that neither existence or non-existence of God can be proven....

Why do you believe that? The fact is, science is open to all observable phenomena. Perhaps we can't prove that a personal god doesn't exist because he/she/it doesn't exist.

....but you still seem set on trying to persuade us otherwise.

It's a conversation. I have a stance. It's a discussion forum.

Why is his belief "shameful" and "worthy of mockery"?

No no, what I find shameful, and worthy of contempt, is the mental laziness revealed in the statement, "No need to read anything else in this thread, my mind is made up."
In what other area of discourse does anyone take that approach and not expect either ridicule or at least marginalization? Pretend we were talking about chemistry, or history, or gun control.....or anything, and I said: "No need to read anything else on this topic, my mind is made up."

Notice how intellectually repulsive that is. But somehow, religion gets a free pass on that. Why?

He believes what he wants.

Yes, but I feel that we pay a dear price for believing any old thing that we want. It's nice that we have that freedom, and I would defend that freedom, but wanting to believe something leads us down paths of holding all manner of false beliefs (delusion), be it astrology, tarot cards, or invisible sky daddys.
I wouldn't want my doctor thinking that "intelligent design" was an equally plausible hypothesis to evolution any more than I would want my airplane pilot believing that the earth was flat. It matters what we believe; just look at the nut-job who just killed all those people in Norway; he did so because of his beliefs, and so I think we owe to each other as members of the human family to keep our compass pointed away from irrational beliefs.

For me, it is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. (Carl Sagan)

I applaud him for that, but you want to mock him and judge him...

No, not him, but his refusal to think critically.

yet his beliefs are similar to yours.

I'm biting my tongue here so much I need 1,000,000 credit points, but that is just so nonsensical I don't know where to begin. That's tantamount to saying that the person who views astrology as nonsense, has similar beliefs as the person who believes that astrology is the absolute best way to arrange one's life. Where's that face-palm graphic......

People will always believe what they want to believe, it will never change.

I disagree. There have been countless people who have benefited from internet discussions. Just look at all the forums like ExChristian.net, ExCatholic, Ex JW, Ex mormon, etc etc etc. They're loaded with people with stories of deconversion. I certainly don't expect anyone to suddenly say: "You know, that makes sense, I think I'll drop my religion tomorrow". No, the investment levels are usually much too high, but I hope to plant seeds of doubt, because all we have is conversation, and I think that this is one of the most important conversations humanity ought to be having at this point in time.






Story time:




A pastor was walking along the street one day and he came across a little boy with a box of kittens. He peered into the box, and said, "Son, those are the cutest little kitties I have ever seen. What kind are they?"

"These are Christian kittens," the little boy replied.

The pastor chuckled and went on his way.

A week later, he found himself on the same street when he saw the same little boy with the same box of kittens. He said, "How are your christian kittens today?"

The boy replied, "Um, err, these are atheist kittens."

He looked shocked, and asked the boy, "What do you mean, atheist kittens? Last week you told me these kittens were Christian!"

"They were," replied the boy. "But now their eyes are open."




Cheers.

 

[pjs123456789]

Guys like buggs1a stated in one off his post. It is impossible to believe without the holy spirit. Guys I can't tell you I have seen everything in the bible for my self, what I can tell is history seems to support the bible. And the teachings are pure brilliance. You all who dout will one day see the light and hopefully it wouldn't be to late. I personal see some off the prohecys taking place I am see the proverbs proving to be flawless all the time. For you guys that think christians should look at they faith critically study all of the scriptures carefully then study history and look around I am 100% sure you will see the scriptures fulfilling it self. Truly the devil have blinded the eyes of many so they don't understand. There is a prophecy in daniel 12 that the wicked will do wickedness and none of them will understand but the wise will understand. I see it all the time. Follow what I am writing the average person does not act base on principle but their feelings . Example, you probably know people who will tell you their understand you or understanding something and yet still their action show something different. This is how it is with someone bent on doing wickedness you will tell them to do the right thing and they in their ignorance will still do the wrong thing and their just don't understand that the right is for their own good. I have seen countless other things it is really amazing the truthfulness of the bible. I can't even start list for how great the list would be of the bible proving to be true. Anyway I think I recomended 3ABN earlier in the tread.

 

[Hun200kmh]

A pastor was walking along the street one day and he came across a little boy with a box of kittens. He peered into the box, and said, "Son, those are the cutest little kitties I have ever seen. What kind are they?"

"These are Christian kittens," the little boy replied.

The pastor chuckled and went on his way.

A week later, he found himself on the same street when he saw the same little boy with the same box of kittens. He said, "How are your christian kittens today?"

The boy replied, "Um, err, these are atheist kittens."

He looked shocked, and asked the boy, "What do you mean, atheist kittens? Last week you told me these kittens were Christian!"

"They were," replied the boy. "But now their eyes are open."

"Ah I see", replied the pastor, "and now you are able to look them in the eyes and notice how they'll never be anything else than animals"

"Yes, I know that now" sighed the boy. "But why can't they know better? Why won't they never be our equals, only furry, smaller and four-legged? Why are we different?"

"Well ..." said the pastor "... according to rule #13.765 set by the Central Committee of Americania's in their Free-Thought Act, you'll have to wait until you are 18 to know the answer. As of now ... treat them nicely."

 

[Tic Tach]

*nuked*

 

[Hun200kmh]

I just reported you post Tic Tach. Again, it is enlightening how you post and what you post.

You are blinded by your hate towards religion and you lose all decency and respect for others.

Do you not know atrocities were also commited against religious people BECAUSE of their religion? And by people that didn't have one? Are you ignorant?

I guess not Tic Tach, I guess it goes deeper than that. Because you KNOW those atrocities also happened.

And TELL ME, IS THAT A PICTURE OF A MAN EATING A BABY I SEE UP THERE????? ARE YOU CRAZY?????? MENTAL????

You are not worthy of being debated. You surely crossed a line I would never dream existed.

 

[Joel]

Tic Tach, I'm as atheist as the next guy, but don't you think you're going overboard?