Do you think a locked 60 is "Chest Beating" that is preventing great experiences for Forza?

[PzR Slim]

Is someone that literally just posted twice about alpha males telling me to grow up?

What a bizarro world.

lo, you're a card. Ian Bell and Dan Greenawalt very nicely fit the alpha male role. Not sure why you are getting your panties in a twist about that. And as a result they tend to be a little combative when talking about their franchise and their studio. That's all Bell is doing, just as Dan has done in the past also. I just don't understand the faux rage when this sort of thing happens all the time when games are due to be released. If his comments had not been related to Forza but a different franchise you wouldn't have batted an eyelid

 

[Pillo-san]

My post above literally still says that it has nothing to do with the CPU.

The CPU in the Xbox One X is perfectly capable of delivering 4K native at 60 fps as shown by Forza 7 and Forza 7 has dynamic weather, 24 cars on track, high framerate physics(360 fps last I checked) and more.



Nope, the Xbox One family of consoles are the only runs with a DX12 command processor built-in; and no it isn't PR.



You're making your assumptions about the bottleneck being the CPU, so why can't I make assumptions?

I said you were damage controlling because what you said about a variable 60 fps being better made no sense.



I choose the Simracer at a locked 60, don't pretend that Forza isn't running a ton of physics under it's hood; they have one of the most advanced tire physics models in gaming.



Again from a guy that claimed a variable 60 is better for a racing game than a locked 60.

60 fps is plenty good enough for racing games but higher is better which is why these games let you do it but reaching those high framerates require expensive hardware and supporting monitors.

Yeah, I'm not going to waste my time on this conversation anymore, get your last words if you want.

If it is just a pr stunt or not we will see, If the cpu was not the bottleneck in the scorpio then we would be able to race with more cars on track at 1080p yet still have 60fps compared to 24 cars at 4K/60. Cpu is always the bottleneck of a system, if the cpu cant keep up then it dictate the max ceiling of performance you will get.

What are you not understanding about my standpoint about the fps? I could have not explained it any clearer...

You said that you did not understand all the crap about alpha males and all but to me it is clear why as you go about with your lack of understanding stuff, change your post after reading up on the matter to please your agenda(pointing fingers on other games) and twist what others are saying to put them down, sounds a bit like what an alpha male would do...

I don't know who gave you the idea that it is "physics" that bring racing games to a crawl, but it doesn't hold.
Case example: Rain
You get the same physics give or take a friction coefficient number or two, yet when GRAPHICS become heavier, game crawls.
You think physics bring it down?

especially for PCARS1, anyone who claims/believes that ...heavy physics calculations was what brought it to its knees, well, I have a nice beautiful bridge to sell you

Pc cars was not that cpu intensive/demanding as other games I have on my system. But it does not change the fact that from what I gather and see, all the new additions to PC2 it will be far more cpu demanding than before. With PC1 I get bigger performance impact by changing the gpu than the cpu, that is not the case with some other titles I use atm.

But from what we have seen thus far with Forza 7 and how many cars it can have on track even at 1080p it seems like it is cpu limited. I know you cant do this on consoles but you can test these stuff out on pc. More cars=hihger cpu load= more physic based calculations, if the weather is dynamic affecting the physics even more it will effect the cpu even more. And there for the amount of cars must be kept low.

 

[FordGTGuy]

lo, you're a card. Ian Bell and Dan Greenawalt very nicely fit the alpha male role. Not sure why you are getting your panties in a twist about that. And as a result they tend to be a little combative when talking about their franchise and their studio. That's all Bell is doing, just as Dan has done in the past also. I just don't understand the faux rage when this sort of thing happens all the time when games are due to be released. If his comments had not been related to Forza but a different franchise you wouldn't have batted an eyelid

Why are you so insistent that I not discuss his comments in a critical way?

This thread isn't about Ian Bell, it's about what the Forza community on this site thinks of his comment towards Forza.

If his comments had not been related to Forza but a different franchise you wouldn't have batted an eyelid

I would have considered his comment just as idiotic if said about any racing franchise but I still would have created a thread because no matter who he targeted with the comment it is still targeted at any racing game prioritizing a locked 60 fps.

I mean honestly, his statement even includes Killer Instinct(locked 60) and Halo 5(Locked 60) which both include genres where a locked framerate is important to the gameplay.

lo, you're a card. Ian Bell and Dan Greenawalt very nicely fit the alpha male role.

 

[PzR Slim]

Why are you so insistent that I not discuss his comments in a critical way?

This thread isn't about Ian Bell, it's about what the Forza community on this site thinks of his comment towards Forza.



I would have considered his comment just as idiotic if said about any racing franchise but I still would have created a thread because no matter who he targeted with the comment it is still targeted at any racing game prioritizing a locked 60 fps.

I mean honestly, his statement even includes Killer Instinct(locked 60) and Halo 5(Locked 60) which both include genres where a locked framerate is important to the gameplay.

You can discuss his comments in anyway you want but don't be surprised when people take you to task on it. So all the games that have gone before that didn't achieve a locked 60fps were rubbish and unplayable? It would be preferable if all games were a locked 144 fps to make better use of my display. The fact none are doesn't mean they are rubbish. And quit it with the girly little gif, I've explained how their combative style is classic alpha male. If you don't agree argue against what I have said, posting a gif shows you haven't anything to do so.

Someone had a pop at your favourite and you got your panties in a twist about it. PC2 would be better if it was a locked 60fps but that would mean losing some of its features. FM7 would be better game if it had more features but that would jeopardise it's locked 60fps. Bell is just defending the decision his studio took, just as Dan has done in the past for the direction his studio has taken. You have blown it all out of proportion.

I'll be enjoying the decisions both studios took come September. I wonder if your panties will still be in knots.

 

[FordGTGuy]

You can discuss his comments in anyway you want but don't be surprised when people take you to task on it.

Oh please, take me to task on how a locked 60 is just chest-beating PR.

I would love to hear you justify how a locked 60 is nothing more than a PR thing.

So all the games that have gone before that didn't achieve a locked 60fps were rubbish and unplayable?

Strawman, never claimed any such thing and has nothing to do with this discussion.

It would be preferable if all games were a locked 144 fps to make better use of my display. The fact none are doesn't mean they are rubbish.

Red herring, HDTVs(which consoles are used with) don't go any higher than 60 fps so bringing up 144 has nothing to do with this conversation at all.

And quit it with the girly little gif, I've explained how their combative style is classic alpha male. If you don't agree argue against what I have said, posting a gif shows you haven't anything to do so.

Ad hominem, a guy who can't shutup about alpha males telling me to quit being girly.

Someone had a pop at your favourite and you got your panties in a twist about it.

Has nothing to do with "having a pop at your favourite" it has to do with the logic of his statement and how it makes no sense; I made this thread to see if people in the Forza community agreed with him.

PC2 would be better if it was a locked 60fps but that would mean losing some of its features. FM7 would be better game if it had more features but that would jeopardise it's locked 60fps.

Many would argue that being 60 fps locked makes it a better game.

Bell is just defending the decision his studio took, just as Dan has done in the past for the direction his studio has taken. You have blown it all out of proportion.

That isn't defending, it's damage controlling.

Defending would be like this: "We decided to not prioritize a locked 60 because it allows us to offer experiences we couldn't offer if we did prioritize locked 60."

Damage controlling is: "We didn't do locked 60 because locked 60 is for first party chest beaters."

I'll be enjoying the decisions both studios took come September. I wonder if your panties will still be in knots.

If the controller support is still crap the framerate all over the place I wouldn't enjoy it anyway.

You sound really upset that I dare to be critical of a dumb comment made by a gaming studio.

How much financial investment do you have in their kickstarter, I wonder.

 

[DeadHero]

Defending would be like this: "We decided to not prioritized a locked 60 because it allows us to offer experiences we couldn't offer if we did prioritize 60."

That would have been a much much better way to put it, without having to spit on others' work.

 

[UKMikey]

That would have been a much much better way to put it, without having to spit on others' work.

He has previous for this as I understand it. According to him Forza has copied everything he's done since GTR2.

https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst37823_Head-of-Project-Cars-on-F5.aspx

 

[FordGTGuy]

He has previous for this as I understand it. According to him Forza has copied everything he's done since GTR2.

https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst37823_Head-of-Project-Cars-on-F5.aspx

We have the flexibility to ship with frames that occasionally drop during heavy throughput. Forza have staked their claim on always being 60.

Why do you think it shipped with so few tracks and cars on track at once? Those that didn't hit 60 were cut.

Absolute gold... lol.

Would love to see his evidence that tracks were cut due to 60 fps locked, If Nurburgring works, I don't see why any other track couldn't. Statement is even funnier when you realize that Forza 6 doubled the cars on track, improved visuals, added weather, maintained 1080p native and 60 fps locked.

 

[FT-1]

Personally, I would take a rock solid 60fps with dynamic resolution over a fixed resolution with screen tearing all over the place.

SMS has a sketchy reputation due to some controversial comments Ian Bell has made in the past, and this appears to be another. Taking shots at other franchises which do things better than you is not a way to win new customers.

 

[Justuxful]

By trying to shade both Forza and GT he made himself look like an arrogant idiot?

Seems like some things never change, keep being you Ian, just keep being you.

 

[mrPetros]

Pc cars was not that cpu intensive/demanding as other games I have on my system. But it does not change the fact that from what I gather and see, all the new additions to PC2 it will be far more cpu demanding than before. With PC1 I get bigger performance impact by changing the gpu than the cpu, that is not the case with some other titles I use atm.

But from what we have seen thus far with Forza 7 and how many cars it can have on track even at 1080p it seems like it is cpu limited. I know you cant do this on consoles but you can test these stuff out on pc. More cars=hihger cpu load= more physic based calculations, if the weather is dynamic affecting the physics even more it will effect the cpu even more. And there for the amount of cars must be kept low.

of course its not cpu intensive, but this didnt keep SMS from bringing a totally unoptimized, unplayable for many, game for console.

more cars= far higher GPU load, than CPU. their relation in resources is very different than you think, especially when car model detail is the star of the game.
and when you bring forza to the equation, their drivatar system may be less resource hungry than having 23 stand alone AI

dynamic weather, lets break down the CALCULATIONS, not THE GRAPHICS. what do we have on PCARS? as I wrote above, basically some friction numbers parameters change, and calculations remain the same. You think this changes the cpu load by a lot? say I do all my physics calculations with friction = 1 for dry tarmac, then I got denominations like 0.8 , 0.6 etc for various levels of "wet". basically my calculations volume remain the same, parameter values change. Oversimplified maybe, but you get the idea.
and pcars1 didnt even have 3d puddles with properties and hydroplanning that forza had, and that of course would need a little more something in calculation resources. basically its just friction coefficient + gfx

 

[McLaren]

He has previous for this as I understand it. According to him Forza has copied everything he's done since GTR2.

https://forums.forzamotorsport.net/turn10_postst37823_Head-of-Project-Cars-on-F5.aspx

I'd rather not have a dog in this fight but this was pretty amusing in contrast to OP's quote.

They'll need to do this for all circuits and they'll need to run at 60 FPS.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Whether the FPS is 30 or 60, it better damn sure be locked. I would much prefer other attributes take hits (like resolution as others have said) than FPS. Dropped/inconsistant FPS actually makes me feel sick.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I could never stand that cocky, arrogant man that is Ian Bell. I never cared for any of his statements in the past (especially after playing Shift 1/2), but dang does this guy love to stir up unnecessary drama among fanbases... This one in particular, is no different to his past self, but I just had to laugh. "It put us in first party territory." Keep ringing those bells Ian (no pun intended ), because that's all you're good for.

Honently guys, don't let this Ian guy's statements get to you. Just be thankful we have a developer that could ACTUALLY maintain releasing game after game that isn't a rotten mess.

 

[HighSeasHoMastr]

All I hear when reading this is that the console version PCars 2 will probably be the same poorly optimized, lazy port that PCars 1 was, and SMS doesn't care. Cool.

My experience with PCars 1 on PC has been mixed, but skewing more positive than negative. If I run it one step below what my PC can render it at it runs smooth enough, and with a wheel it plays pretty well. There are some issues with AI speed in mixed conditions and some of the cars behave very strangely at times, but in general it does what I hoped it would.

My experience with it on Xbox One was absolute trash. In my first career race (I was in the Formula Rookie I think?) at the first tight corner, the FPS would drop to ~10 every time and then about 25% of the time the game would hard crash to a black screen. I tried everything to fix this, reinstalling, hard resetting my Xbox, nothing worked. I ran the first lap of that race probably 20 times trying to get it to work, but every single time the FPS would drop through the floor and I would have a massive accident since I couldn't tell what was happening.

Supposedly they 'fixed' the worst of the FPS issues in the console version later, but I never bothered to boot it again to check. Between that and their utter lack of interest in supporting the pad, I uninstalled and never looked back. From the sound of things, PCars 2 is on track for a stellar repeat performance.

Think I'll take a pass on going through that again, thanks. I'll stick with all those chest-beating first party studios that can actually make a game that works.

 

[Imari]

Cpu is always the bottleneck of a system...

Congratulations, you just demonstrated that you have no idea how a computer works.

 

[HELLAFLUSH240SX]

So PcArs 2 will follow in the first games footsteps of ring unplayable on console. Good to know, I'll wait for the price drop or buy used.

 

[Cloudy]

Huh, that's the same Ian Bell that would ban people from wmd if they so much as criticized PCars, no?

And now he moves onto what? Dissing other franchises because they can do certain things better?

I'm all in for PCars 2, but if it's the same broken, slow mess PCars 1 was at launch, I won't play it for more than a week just like the first time.

 

[Pillo-san]

Congratulations, you just demonstrated that you have no idea how a computer works.

It seems I know a bit more compared to you as you use my quote out of context. Those tricks of yours are more fitting in your politically oriented discussions in the Opinions&Current Events section.

 

[Imari]

It seems I know a bit more compared to you as you use my quote out of context. Those tricks of yours are more fitting in your politically oriented discussions in the Opinions&Current Events section.

Ah, a personal attack. Of course. Simply by what I quoted in a post tells you everything about my computer knowledge. Obviously. That would be easier than explaining why it's impossible to overload a GPU or any other of the many components that make up a computer system before the CPU.

There's no trick here. Face it, you said something silly and wrong. You know it and I know it. Even in context, it made no sense. It's just as easy for the GPU to be the bottleneck for performance for a game. That's why I got increased performance on my PC by upgrading to a 1080 without touching the CPU.

CPU is not always the bottleneck. The bottleneck is the lowest performing component of your system, if we're speaking generally. With the current generation of consoles that's often going to be the CPU, but not always. In the specific case that you were talking about, the CPU is almost certainly the bottleneck for how many cars we can have on track, but that doesn't mean that you can generalise that to all games everywhere. Or even all aspects of Forza Motorsport. Why can't we have 8K at 60fps? Probably because of the GPU, not the CPU.

You'll get a lot more respect for admitting it and saying "Whoops, yeah that wasn't what I meant to say" rather than trying to double down and defend an incomprehensible statement like "The CPU is always the bottleneck". And you're never going to get anywhere by shooting the messenger. You were the one that said it, I'm just pointing it out.

 

[Pillo-san]

Firstly, are we talking about a pc with a i5/i7 or Ryzen cpu or are we talking about a down clocked bulldozer(jaguar) being paired with a what MS claims a 6Tflops gpu ie a gtx 1070/980ti class of gpu in an enclosed system in this thread?

You even goes into the specifics what I meant by the cpu bottlenecking in a game such as a sim:ish racer:

In the specific case that you were talking about, the CPU is almost certainly the bottleneck for how many cars we can have on track,

I rest my case, as it is clear that you are taking what I said out of context.
It is easy to make the gpu bottleneck, you simply throw more pixels and higher quality at the gpu but for a cpu, well if you want to make the game same for all sys you cant scale back physics and functions.


What is the oddball in the scorpio system compared to a modern cpu even a cpu from a couple of years ago like sandy bridge i5/i7? That is why you got more performance by switching to a faster gpu. But if you are on an crappy cpu just like I am right now over the summer: q6600 I get the same perf(avg fps) with the gtx 970 as with a gtx670 or even a gtx470 albeit the quality can be higher but the fps stays the same as the cpu is the perf bottleneck. Changing to a faster cpu I will get a boost in perf and I will see differences between all those three gpus which I dont see with the potato cpu(q6600)

avg fps with skylake=not cpu bottlenecked as with the q6600
gtx 470=45-60fps
gtx670=120fps
gtx 970=120-140fps
gtx 1070=120-165fps

These are test done in AC

 

[TokoTurismo]

Huh, that's the same Ian Bell that would ban people from wmd if they so much as criticized PCars, no?

And now he moves onto what? Dissing other franchises because they can do certain things better?

I'm all in for PCars 2, but if it's the same broken, slow mess PCars 1 was at launch, I won't play it for more than a week just like the first time.

He's the same guy whose hell bent on killing both Forza and GT to the point it's almost his goal to fulfill, yet he can't release a game that isn't a broken mess. It's probably one of the reasons why pCARS came out the way it did at day 1. He can ring but what else can he do? (oh god not the puns again. )

If I was to buy pCARS 2 (probably never), I'll buy it used for cheap.

 

[Pillo-san]

He's the same guy whose hell bent on killing both Forza and GT to the point it's almost his goal to fulfill, yet he can't release a game that isn't a broken mess. It's probably one of the reasons why pCARS came out the way it did at day 1. He can ring but what else can he do? (oh god not the puns again. )

If I was to buy pCARS 2 (probably never), I'll buy it used for cheap.

I didnt know he was involved in GTR2, I thought that Raceroom people were behind the old simbin titles. The old simbin titles are still worth getting and are pure bliss, there is/are no other car game/games that have that amount of tracks/cars as those if you take in account to all those modded ones and the cars feels nice and have a lot of small details that the newer titles are raging about today. Tip to all of the pc users, get the simbin pack from Steam and downloads the mods.

 

[DeadHero]

Absolute gold... lol.

Would love to see his evidence that tracks were cut due to 60 fps locked, If Nurburgring works, I don't see why any other track couldn't. Statement is even funnier when you realize that Forza 6 doubled the cars on track, improved visuals, added weather, maintained 1080p native and 60 fps locked.

And now they're about to push it even further with dynamic weather and improved lighting, while keeping the same resolution and the same framerate. To quote Stefano (Kunos' lead dev), Turn 10 has a "kickass graphics engine development team" and I agree with him.

 

[Imari]

I rest my case, as it is clear that you are taking what I said out of context.

Perhaps you just don't understand English then. If you're talking about a specific case, you don't use the word "always" when referring to a generic situation. Like I said, if what you said didn't correctly convey what you meant, then there's nothing wrong with owning up to it and correcting it. Everyone on here isn't a fluent native speaker of English.

"The CPU is always the bottleneck" doesn't convey the meaning that you apparently wanted. Perhaps something like "the CPU is limiting the amount of cars that Forza Motorsport can have on track". Because that's all you appear to actually be claiming.

Don't get salty at me for being confused that your words aren't the correct ones to convey your meaning. I'm not a mind reader. If you say something, I assume that you mean it. If you get it wrong, that's OK too, but don't shoot the messenger. What you said didn't and doesn't make any sense.

 

[Pillo-san]

Perhaps you just don't understand English then. If you're talking about a specific case, you don't use the word "always" when referring to a generic situation. Like I said, if what you said didn't correctly convey what you meant, then there's nothing wrong with owning up to it and correcting it. Everyone on here isn't a fluent native speaker of English.

"The CPU is always the bottleneck" doesn't convey the meaning that you apparently wanted. Perhaps something like "the CPU is limiting the amount of cars that Forza Motorsport can have on track". Because that's all you appear to actually be claiming.

Don't get salty at me for being confused that your words aren't the correct ones to convey your meaning. I'm not a mind reader. If you say something, I assume that you mean it. If you get it wrong, that's OK too, but don't shoot the messenger. What you said didn't and doesn't make any sense.

Generic situation? Okey sure, generic situation it is. I gave you an example in AC but if that is not enough then go and look at a cpu comparison test to see what cpu bottleneck will do when paired with a fast gpu like 1080ti. Okey, you are not limited to 60fps like on consoles but even an older amd fx cpu that is way faster than the scorpio cpu can have problem with managing solid 60fps in some titles, but often it is waaaay behind the rest fps wise as it is bottlenecking the performance.

But even so, we are talking about the scorpio first and foremost here and how a slow and antique cpu design is limiting the perf of the scorpio gpu.


How many times am I gonna to repeat myself.
A weak cpu will always be a bottleneck in a system when paired with hardware such as with the gpu found in Scorpio when you are in cpu intensive games. Hell even if it was not cpu intensive it would bottleneck the gpu itself from reaching its max potential if the quality settings or resolution would not naturally make the gpu the bottleneck of systems perf. That is why MS doesn't promote the Xbox one X as 60fps system as that they dont know what kind of games will come in the future, so it is easier to promote that it is at least a 4k beast of a system.

 

[FordGTGuy]

Wow, these circular arguments are sure getting old.

You cannot compare:

• Console games to PC games.
• Console hardware to PC hardware.

Directly.

How many times am I gonna to repeat myself.
A weak cpu will always be a bottleneck in a system when paired with hardware such as with the gpu found in Scorpio when you are in cpu intensive games. Hell even if it was not cpu intensive it would bottleneck the gpu itself from reaching its max potential if the quality settings or resolution would not naturally make the gpu the bottleneck of systems perf. That is why MS doesn't promote the Xbox one X as 60fps system as that they dont know what kind of games will come in the future, so it is easier to promote that it is at least a 4k beast of a system.

This is completely wrong.


Xbox One runs it's CPU at a higher clockrate than PS4, giving it a CPU advantage. YET



PS4 runs Project Cars better than Xbox One.

Is that because:

A) It has a stronger GPU

or

B) It has a stronger GPU

That can't be possible though... because the CPU is always the bottleneck right? Must be magic.

Also, as seen in the above video, it is capable of running 60 fps with a full field of cars than running in the rain isn't going to affect the CPU pretty much at all; yet it drops into the 50s-40s on both PS4 and Xbox One... because of the GPU.

 

[Pillo-san]

Wow, these circular arguments are sure getting old.

You cannot compare:

• Console games to PC games.
• Console hardware to PC hardware.

Directly.



This is completely wrong.


Xbox One runs it's CPU at a higher clockrate than PS4, giving it a CPU advantage. YET



PS4 runs Project Cars better than Xbox One.

Is that because:

A) It has a stronger GPU

or

B) It has a stronger GPU

That can't be possible though... because the CPU is always the bottleneck right? Must be magic.

Of course I can compare pc hardware to console hardware, all that is different is basically that consoles are using a closer to metal api compared to a pc.
The thing you dont take into account it that PC1 is not that cpu intensive compared to other games in the genre.

Ps4 has the faster gpu and therfore in PC1 you get naturally better performance on the PS4. You dont understand what cpu bottlenecking is, go back and look at my post again.

Xbox one and Ps4 are really really closely matched, Both have crappy jaguar cpus, one at 1.6ghz and the other at 1.7 something, the gpu is an 7870-7890 like on ps4 while on the xbox one it is on a level of 7850. They are very closely matched and would not be that far apart from each other.
Xbox will be faster in cpu intensive and Ps4 will be faster in gpu intensive games, but will still be very closely matched.

But pairing a gtx 1070 performance level of gpu with a pretty much the same jaguar cpu albeit at 2.3ghz is bottlenecking the performance of what the gpu is capable of. Sure even if the cpu was stronger they would still cap the fps to 60 despite of 1080 or 4k. But in cpu intensive games this mismatch of weak cpu and gpu which is several times faster then in the org xbox one will give developers head aches if they want to hit solid 60fps and therefore they will aim at 30 with extreme gpu settings and let the cpu take it easy in most games.

You cant point as you seem to like to do and say haha, -Look ps4 has slower cpu but it performs worse in this game... Talk about face palm moment, you only show that you dont understand what we are talking about.


This is the reality, you have a system let say a pc but it does not matter. It has an i5 cpu with a gtx 1070. What will be the bottleneck in this example?
Well obviously it will be the gpu, that is pretty much always the case in a well balanced machine in most titles.

But if we would swap the cpu for something weaker like my potato q6600 or an Amd fx cpu we will be limiting or "bottlenecking" the performance of the 1070 compared to the how it performed with the i5.

Do you understand what I mean with a cpu being the bottleneck, the cpu is always good for up to certain amount of performance, but then it hits a wall and even with a faster gpu in the future it will not be able to push the gpu in order for it to perform at 100%. Ie your cpu is a bottleneck.

But just like I said, we only need a cpu that is strong enough to hit 60fps, that is it. But the thing is the 2.3ghz cpu will not be able to hit 60 in all titles and they can instead chose to make the gpu work harder with higher settings/res and settle for 30fps.

Do you follow me?

 

[FordGTGuy]

Here we go again... sigh.

Of course I can compare pc hardware to console hardware, all that is different is basically that consoles are using a closer to metal api compared to PC.

No, they aren't just using a closer to metal API.

For one, you're making the assumption that the hardware is off the shelf, it's anything but.

Xbox One X has 60 hardware level custom modifications to specifically alleviate bottlenecks shown to exist on modern hardware when using modern gaming engines.

Remarkably, all of this happened years ago, before any hardware was fabricated. The knowledge gained from profiling Xbox One titles also allowed for more intricate customisations to the AMD hardware.

"We also leveraged the fact that we understand the AMD architecture really, really well now and how well it does on our games," continues Goossen, "so we were able to go through and examine a lot of the internal queues and buffers and caches and FIFOs that make up this very deep pipeline that, if you can find the right areas that are causing bottlenecks, for very small area [on the processor] we could increase those sizes and get effective wins."

The end result is 40 Radeon compute units in the custom Scorpio Engine, ramped up to a remarkable 1172MHz - a huge increase over Xbox One's 853MHz, and indeed PS4 Pro's 911MHz. We got a fair amount right or close to the mark in our original Project Scorpio spec analysis, but we were way off the mark in terms of prospective GPU clocks. How Microsoft managed to achieve this speaks to the quality of the engineering elsewhere in the box, but the fact is that Scorpio's GPU is only 94MHz off the maximum boost clock of AMD's Polaris-based RX 480 graphics card, which only has 36 compute units - and requires a meaty custom cooler to sustain its max boost clock.

"Those are the big ticket items, but there's a lot of other configuration that we had to do as well," says Goossen, pointing to a layout of the Scorpio Engine processor. "As you can see, we doubled the amount of shader engines. That has the effect of improvement of boosting our triangle and vertex rate by 2.7x when you include the clock boost as well. We doubled the number of render back-ends, which has the effect of increasing our fill-rate by 2.7x. We quadrupled the GPU L2 cache size, again for targeting the 4K performance."

Xbox One X is purposely built to handle 4K assets meaning that memory bandwidth actually much more in reality than a GTX 1080 which get about 275~ GB/s real world while the Xbox One X has 326 GB/s.

"For 4K assets, textures get larger and render targets get larger as well. This means a couple of things - you need more space, you need more bandwidth. The question, though, was how much?" asks Nick Baker, Distinguished Engineer, Silicon. "We'd hate to build this GPU and then end up having to be memory-starved. So all the analysis that Andrew was talking about, we were able to look at the effect of different memory bandwidths, and it quickly led us to needing more than 300GB/s memory bandwidth. So in the end we ended up choosing 326GB/s. On Scorpio we are using a 384-bit GDDR5 interface - that is 12 channels. Each channel is 32 bits."

Scorpio runs its GDDR5 modules across a 384-bit GDDR5 interface ("So you were right!" laughs Goossen) that uses 12 32-bit channels. The modules themselves run at 6.8GHz, offering a final bandwidth figure of 326GB/s - on top of which, Microsoft gets the benefit of AMD's delta colour compression (DCC) system, an element that wasn't present on Xbox One. And yes, Scorpio does indeed feature 12GB of memory, as indicated on Microsoft's E3 motherboard render, 8GB of which is available to developers, with 4GB reserved for the system. That's an additional 1GB of reservation compared to Xbox One, required in order to run the dashboard at native 4K. Titles still receive an impressive 60 per cent bump to overall memory though, and to ensure loading times consistent with full HD Xbox One games, Scorpio ships with a 1TB hard drive with a 50 per cent increase in bandwidth.

Offloading is done by quite a few chips that help prevent bottlenecks normally seen with a CPU or GPU including dedicated audio, offloading scaling, offloading video/screenshot capture up to 4K 60 in quality and offloading texture filtering:

There's significant hardware offloading too - some of which is inherited from Xbox One, some of which is radically new. The audio processor in Xbox One is fully transplanted across to Scorpio and gains new functionality - spatial surround, effectively adding a 'height' component to the existing 7.1 set-up. Scorpio is set to receive support for Dolby Atmos for gaming, Dolby Atmos for headphones plus a Microsoft proprietary format called HRTF, developed by the Hololens team. Because the APB (audio processor block) hardware is basically identical to that found in Xbox One, it means that all existing iterations of the console will get the spatial surround upgrade.

Draw calls are made much smaller through hardware:

"We essentially moved Direct3D 12," says Goossen. "We built that into the command processor of the GPU and what that means is that, for all the high frequency API invocations that the games do, they'll all natively implemented in the logic of the command processor - and what this means is that our communication from the game to the GPU is super-efficient."

Processing draw calls - effectively telling the graphics hardware what to draw - is one of the most important tasks the CPU carries out. It can suck up a lot of processor resources, a pipeline that traditionally takes thousands - perhaps hundreds of thousands - of CPU instructions. With Scorpio's hardware offload, any draw call can be executed with just 11 instructions, and just nine for a state change.

"It's a massive win for us and for the developers who've adopted D3D12 on Xbox, they've told us they've been able to cut their CPU rendering overhead by half, which is pretty amazing because now the driver portion of that is such a tiny fraction," adds Goossen.

So no, you can't directly compare the hardware.

The thing you dont take into account it that PC is not that cpu intensive compared to other games in the genre.

Ps4 has the faster gpu and therfore in PC1 you get naturally better performance on the PS4. You dont understand what cpu bottlenecking is, go back and look at my post again.

Stop assuming that we don't know what CPU-bottlenecking is, we are literally refuting the claim that all bottlenecks are 100% responsible by the CPU.

But pairing a gtx 1070 performance level of gpu with a pretty much the same jaguar cpu albeit at 2.3ghz is bottlenecking the performance of what the gpu is capable of. Sure even if the cpu was stronger they would still cap the fps to 60 despite of 1080 or 4k. But in cpu intensive games this mismatch of weak cpu and gpu several times faster then in org xbox one will give developers problems if they want to hit solid 60fps and therefore they will aim at 30 with extreme gpu settings and let the cpu take it easy in most games.

Honestly, you're making claims you cannot back up.

You're not taking into account the amount of offloading and custom work done to the actual hardware to lower CPU strain(as much as 50% BTW) and alleviate bottlenecks across the entire system.

"It's a massive win for us and for the developers who've adopted D3D12 on Xbox, they've told us they've been able to cut their CPU rendering overhead by half, which is pretty amazing because now the driver portion of that is such a tiny fraction," adds Goossen.

You do realize that games will still be GPU bound to 30 fps right? I'm not saying there wouldn't be more games at 60 if there wasn't a more powerful CPU but trying to blame every game running at 30 fps on the CPU is just ludicrous.

Forza Horizon doesn't run at 30 fps because of the CPU.

You cant point as you seem to like to do and say haha, -Look ps4 has slower cpu but it performs worse in this game... Talk about face palm moment, you only show that you dont understand what we are talking about.

*Facepalm*

This is the reality, you have a system let say a pc but it does not matter. It has an i5 cpu with a gtx 1070. What will be the bottleneck in this example?
Well obviously it will be the gpu, that is pretty much always the case in a well balanced machine like this in most titles.

Uh no... it depends on the game, honestly you come in and say "I'm not saying that everything is CPU bound" but "everything is CPU bound".

Do you follow me?

I've been following your circular logic since you started and it's starting to get old.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

 

[Pillo-san]

Here we go again... sigh.



No, they aren't just using a closer to metal API.

For one, you're making the assumption that the hardware is off the shelf, it's anything but.

Xbox One X has 60 hardware level custom modifications to specifically alleviate bottlenecks shown to exist on modern hardware when using modern gaming engines.



Xbox One X is purposely built to handle 4K assets meaning that memory bandwidth actually much more in reality than a GTX 1080 which get about 275~ GB/s real world while the Xbox One X has 326 GB/s.



Offloading is done by quite a few chips that help prevent bottlenecks normally seen with a CPU or GPU including dedicated audio, offloading scaling, offloading video/screenshot capture up to 4K 60 in quality and offloading texture filtering:



Draw calls are made much smaller through hardware:



So no, you can't directly compare the hardware.



Stop assuming that we don't know what CPU-bottlenecking is, we are literally refuting the claim that all bottlenecks are 100% responsible by the CPU.



Honestly, you're making claims you cannot back up.

You're not taking into account the amount of offloading and custom work done to the actual hardware to lower CPU strain(as much as 50% BTW) and alleviate bottlenecks across the entire system.



You do realize that games will still be GPU bound to 30 fps right? I'm not saying there wouldn't be more games at 60 if there wasn't a more powerful CPU but trying to blame every game running at 30 fps on the CPU is just ludicrous.

Forza Horizon doesn't run at 30 fps because of the CPU.



*Facepalm*



Uh no... it depends on the game, honestly you come in and say "I'm not saying that everything is CPU bound" but "everything is CPU bound".



I've been following your circular logic since you started and it's starting to get old.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-2017-project-scorpio-tech-revealed

Omg, you need to stop swallowing every word manufacturers says as a if it was the holy bible...

Gddr mems with its high bandwidth is super nice for gpus but they do not work that good with cpus that prefer lower latencies. Having a special chip that is there to help offload the cpu would even increase even more latency.

Being an console with closer to metal api will at most give 20% probably even less than that.

Of course the system will be gpu bound like crazy, because they will not be able to hit high fps because of the cpu they will choose to use higher gfx settings, that is probably why they settled for such a slow cpu. They are probably limited by the performance of the org xbox as they dont want to give org xbox one users a worse gameplay experience. And secondly they are limited by the 60fps max and third they are limited by the weak cpu. If they cant hit 60fps in a cpu demanding title then they will throw everything they can gfx setting wise to hit as most impressive looking game as possible but at a cost of lower fps.

Stop taking PR mumbo jumbo as if it was worth anything and look instead at the spec of the machine itself and see if you can compare it to something similar spec wise. +- for the api and you know what you have... think son, think