Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Kent]

I took that to mean he never actually cared too much about the option.

Personally, I would have loved the engine swap feature in FM1 if it had actually been worth a darn.

Sure, replacing an RX7 engine with a newer RX7 or RX8 engine is great but that's not what I'm about... I wanted one specific engine swap that occurs in real life and in FM1 they missed it (although they should have it in FM2, please comfirm this someone)... The MR-S with a Celica GT-S engine. Nothing killed my attempts to build a Spirits MR-S like not having an engine swap.

Of course, with that said, I agree with some here who feel the engine swap is small time compared to what is possible with a good tuning foundation. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of a swap. However, I don't value the swap so much as to ignore what is fundamentally wrong in other areas (in relation to FM1 which is the only FM I've played and certainly not meant to imply anything about FM2).

I'm just saying, I'd rather have a game that feels good than a game that seems good.
Add features like engine swaps and it is a great thing but if you don't get the feel of things right there is nothing that can be done to save the game.

 

[unv412]

[Add features like engine swaps and it is a great thing but if you don't get the feel of things right there is nothing that can be done to save the game.[/QUOTE]

exactlly!........same thing with damage modeling.......and cockpit veiw.....and.....and.....youse get the idea.

like ive said b4 elsewhere, im just looking for the closest thing to real life (realism) in a game as I cannot support a lifestyle of fast/exotic/special cars raceing on great circuits and streets.

PS closest real life was 4 laps of the ring in a rented E200k with 4 suitcases in the back, every once in a while letin 400hp loose (1968 hk Monaro) in the back blocks of Sydney OZ and daily driver stock R31 GTS-X Skyline fun........and last but not least WIFES nissan Pulsar.....poor Pulsar!!!

 

[Biggles]

I am a recent convert from Forza (1) to GT4. Really enjoyed Forza but I find GT4 (even with all its shortcomings) a much more immersive & realistic drive than Forza. The key is the wheel (DFP or G25) & on the Ring in particular, there is just no comparison with Forza 1.

Two of things that I immediately noticed on switching to GT4 are the "wind" sound effects & the diving suspension on braking - both very simple & convincing effects & both more or less absent from Forza (& I suspect Forza 2).

Forza 2 really seems to offer up more of the same, but personally I would take less customization in exchange for better graphics. What I would look for in GT5 is improved AI & some kind of damage simulation - at the very least not the bumper-car interaction that's in GT4 - in my opinion the 2 greatest weaknesses of GT4.

 

[Car-less]

+Rep to Biggles for a well written post, and a balanced look at some of the shortcommings of each title - I only wish all new members could reach this quality in only 7 posts!

</off topic>

Twice yesterday I saw a TV advert for Forza 2, and I've got to say that on the media front Forza is MILES AHEAD! In just a fraction of a minute you get to see some close racing, physical damage, and scenery reflected off the side of a car. In comparason, even the biggest GT fanboys still have to hunt for any info regarding the next instalment. Anyone new to racing sims will automatically choose X360 & Forza 2 as it looks that good, and it's already available.

Now I don't want PD to rush out an unfinished game, but if they want to keep their fanbase they are going to have to put out something soon showing that GT5 will be worth the wait.

 

[m7ammed]

Twice yesterday I saw a TV advert for Forza 2, and I've got to say that on the media front Forza is MILES AHEAD! In just a fraction of a minute you get to see some close racing, physical damage, and scenery reflected off the side of a car. In comparason, even the biggest GT fanboys still have to hunt for any info regarding the next instalment. Anyone new to racing sims will automatically choose X360 & Forza 2 as it looks that good, and it's already available.

Now I don't want PD to rush out an unfinished game, but if they want to keep their fanbase they are going to have to put out something soon showing that GT5 will be worth the wait.

Although I'm a huge fan of Sony/GT, I have bought the Xbox 360 for forza a couple of months back ... and I'm going to get forza tommorow , after my experince with GT4 and all the waiting we had to endure for what I feel was an incomplete game (compared to the time it took to creat) I have a fear that GT5 isn't going to be good, I'm going to buy it when its out , I just can't wait that long and wait for the unkown if you know what I mean , PD isn't releasing any worth info , even though I Bought a PS3 and played GTHD , it gets boring one track same 8 or what ever cars , if they want to keep people waiting a bit longer release a new GTHD based on GT5 and not a polished GT4 with another track preferbly the Ring , and add a bit more cars ....

 

[Biggles]

The feature that GT4 really has all over Forza 1 & 2 is the number & variety of tracks. I had started to get sick of doing the same tracks over & over again & when Forza 2 came along with only a few new tracks & no P2P I was very disappointed. You can only go round & round Tskuba so many times!

Turn10 seems to have been focused on improving the strengths of Forza 1 - primarily offering more customization of the cars - rather than addressing the weaknesses: unrealistic graphics, small number of tracks, weird replay angles. To me this seems like the wrong strategy.

I hope PD focuses on the weaknesses of the GT series: damage. To me the most important aspect of damage is not neccessarily bits crumpling & flying off cars, but a realistic interaction in collisions between cars & other objects. What I don't need is 300 more cars: I'm already baffled as to why anyone would want to race half the cars in GT4. I may be wrong, but I assume time & processing power taken to model, say a Fiat 500, takes away from the time & power available for other things.

When Forza 2 came along I decided to skip the $499 (CDN) for a 360, $59 for the game & $129 for the M$ wheel & instead I invested $129 CDN for a PS2 & GT4, & $109 for a DFP (which I then upgraded a G25 👍 ). I'm pretty happy with my choice...

 

[red7]

Hmm, I honestly think the cars in gt4 look better and crisper than in forza 2, but not to say that forzas cars look bad, because they don't. They're more detailed but don't look as realistic or something, its weird....

For me it will come down to a great physics engine. Forza 2's is the best I've seen on any console, realistic and varied enough but yet still fun to drive.

Gt5 (not gthd) MUST step up with the physics to remain the best . We already know pd can produce the visuals , fine, now we know how good gt5 might look , time to perfect the drive to back the visuals.

Knowing the enthusiast that kaz is , as he's driven and owns some very fast cars himself, must realize where the physics are now and where they could potentially go. I don't think it will be neglected but we'll see ...

 

[Wolfe]

Having just spent the better part of this weekend playing Forza 2, I must say that Polyphony Digital is going to have a a lot of work cut out for them.

I was trying to keep my expectations low so that I wouldn't be disappointed, but Forza 2 blew me away. The physics are the second-best I've ever experienced on a console (still not as good as Enthusia), the graphics are much less tech-demo-looking than the first game and are quite pleasing to the eye, the engine sounds are amazing, the licensed music selection is better than anything Polyphony Digital has come up with, the car selection is varied and mostly justifiable, the customization and upgrades are better than ever, and the tracks aren't as bad as I was expecting.

The things GT5 will most certainly nail compared to its Microsoft rival are track selection/accuracy and car selection, and the graphics will probably be a bit nicer, but considering PD's history, I can't imagine them trumping Turn10 in the other areas...particularly in the area of physics. Sure, the cars in FM2 corner way, way too flat (not being helped by the exceedingly flat tracks), are somewhat too controllable and grippy, and still exhibit the occasional goofy strafe-like motion (leading me to believe that FM2's physics engine is nothing more than an extremely sophisticated version of the simplistic "go, rotate, stop" model), but the game is much, much improved over the abysmal FM1, and is quite fun to play. As I said before, it's the second-best I've played on a console.

I can't wait to see what cars (and tracks?) the downloadable content will hold.

 

[dan_gtp]

Wolfe

I must disagree with you on Forza2. The physics engine is so wrong, it is best that no one who consider themselves driving enthusiast, spend too much time driving in this game. You will engrave bad habits/info in your brain. This is my perception.
I stopped driving GT4 after only 2 months. My main goal is to learn and prove to myself what I can do, I didn't think it provided me a true testing platform.
If your a casual driver playing with the gamepad, Forza2 & GT4 is fine.

IMO currently if you want prove to yourself you have some true talent in racing sims, give LFS a go.

My dream is PD and the LFS team work together. Maybe Kaz is too proud to accept such an offer? What do you think Wolfe?
The LFS devs are nothing extrodinary in terms of programming. Its their absolute pursuit of a certain way of simulating cars that have made LFS so realistic already in BETA form.
If one guy can program something so brilliant, surely PD can do it, and do it quickly.
My view is both Kaz and Scavian from LFS team have the same goal. Kaz said in the past his goal is to one day make an engine that he can just input data numbers to simulate any car he wants. To do that, a engine similar to Enthusia and LFS is the only way.
Wolfe, I will never forget that first moment I turned into a corner in Enthusia, instantly I thought this is how it feels like to push the car. Hopefully they don't give up and make a sequel?

Cheers.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe

I must disagree with you on Forza2. The physics engine is so wrong, it is best that no one who consider themselves driving enthusiast, spend too much time driving in this game. You will engrave bad habits/info in your brain. This is my perception.
I stopped driving GT4 after only 2 months. My main goal is to learn and prove to myself what I can do, I didn't think it provided me a true testing platform.
If your a casual driver playing with the gamepad, Forza2 & GT4 is fine.

In my opinion GT4 can't even be compared to Forza 2 (not that it'd be a particularly fair comparison hardware-wise).

Yes, Forza 2 is inaccurate, but not so much that it doesn't make any sense (like GT4)...
- The tire traction, though unrealistically strong, is still weak enough to make seasoned sim players consider using the ABS option (and TCS on the more powerful cars), make FWD/AWD vehicles push wide in corners, and let cars as "weak" as the Miata and 914/6 light up the rear wheels in a drift. Furthermore, the transition between grip and slip seems about right, although I didn't have a chance to test a car with the much-edgier racing slicks.
- Even though you can't see it at all (because every car has a seemingly rock-solid suspension), weight transfer mostly works how it should, and you can really feel a difference in weight and weight distribution when going from car to car, even when both have the same drivetrain layout.
- The modelling of differentials is a thousand times better than what GT4 could ever hope to achieve, and FM2 is the second console game I know of that simulates torque steer (Enthusia was the first).
- Although the cars in the game still exhibit some goofy movements, inertia/momentum and the relationship between the front and rear ends of the car are rather well simulated, especially considering the fact that the game doesn't seem to use an all-independent component-based physics engine like Enthusia and Live for Speed. Unlike FM1, countersteer actually accomplishes something in FM2, and a car won't slide mostly straight while oversteering anymore. What's more, it's actually possible to both overcorrect or throw a car too hard into a drift, possibly leading to a spin in either case. Both are too easy to avoid, but they're there.

Forza 2 exhibits a very tolerable blend of simulation realism with arcadey accessibility (leaning more heavily toward simulation than, say, PGR3 or TDU), and considering the fact that it's all too obvious that PD cares more about making the game accessible to the average idiot than they do about making the most realistic driving simulator, FM2 plays exactly the way that GT4 should have played.

What's sad, though, is that despite this seemingly intentional sim/arcade blend, FM2 manages to out-do everything on consoles except for Enthusia. I still stand by my "second best" assessment of the game.

IMO currently if you want prove to yourself you have some true talent in racing sims, give LFS a go.

My dream is PD and the LFS team work together. Maybe Kaz is too proud to accept such an offer? What do you think Wolfe?

I've hoped for a long time that, once they complete it, ScaViEr will license the Live for Speed physics engine to other companies for use in driving simulators. Simply put, it will be a very long time before someone will be able to come up with something more realistic. Scawen is amazing.

The LFS devs are nothing extrodinary in terms of programming. Its their absolute pursuit of a certain way of simulating cars that have made LFS so realistic already in BETA form.
If one guy can program something so brilliant, surely PD can do it, and do it quickly.
My view is both Kaz and Scavian from LFS team have the same goal. Kaz said in the past his goal is to one day make an engine that he can just input data numbers to simulate any car he wants. To do that, a engine similar to Enthusia and LFS is the only way.

Precisely, although that's part of the reason why I'm so impressed with Forza 2. It doesn't use an engine similar to Enthusia or Live for Speed, yet it simulates understeer and oversteer rather well without feeling sickeningly floaty (like everything Codemasters makes). It isn't on the same level, but it's closer than anything else.

Wolfe, I will never forget that first moment I turned into a corner in Enthusia, instantly I thought this is how it feels like to push the car. Hopefully they don't give up and make a sequel?

Cheers.

These days it's hard to hang on to that hope. Unless Konami is doing an insanely good job of keeping things under wraps, I don't believe an Enthusia 2 is headed our way.

 

[unv412]

thanks for the excellent insight into the phisics of FM2 dangtp & wolfe,I ve been waiting to see if it was better than enthusia (my fav game).Do the individual cars (ie evo lancer AWD or WRX sti AWD) differ enough from each other, physics wise as in enthusia, or is it a generic set of physics for each platform (FR,MR,FF) ??????????????

PS still playin enthusia and wont stop until GT5 or EPR2 come out!

 

[FoolKiller]

What I don't need is 300 more cars: I'm already baffled as to why anyone would want to race half the cars in GT4.

Because a lot of peopel don't feel like a race requires 150+ mph to be fun. If I am battline it out in a race field of low powered cars that struggle to get past 75 mph, and lose speed on hills then I think it is still a fun race. To me saying there is no fun in taht is like saying that go karts aren't fun because they can only got 50-60 mph in the fastest commercial forms.

Check around GTP some. You will find threads where people have done some crazy stuff in the small cars. Off the top of my head I know that at one point there was an active thread of peopel trying to see what the best gas mileage around the Ring in a Prius would be. Another had someone trying to get the best Ring time in one of those 1800's "cars." In real life I love compact sports (hot) hatches (see my sig). I love to race those cars. Some of my favorite cars in the game are the 60s and 70s little European sports coupes.

For people like me the car selection is a big part of what makes GT4 and as long as that continues we will always prefer the GT series over the FM series. Of course, a GT game that has been truly messed up beyond playability would prevent it, but if we are just comparing features then the GT car list wins for me every time.

 

[Joey D]

Except GT didn't put enough races for lowered powered cars in the game which I didn't like. I hate racing actual race cars in a game.

 

[FoolKiller]

Except GT didn't put enough races for lowered powered cars in the game which I didn't like. I hate racing actual race cars in a game.

Probably because they are afraid of adding what many would consider more boredom. I make up for it with some head to head. I know that my friend and I have found ourselves screaming as we head down the last stretch of straight trying to push our cars to grab any tiny advantage to make up that inch.

Slower cars really do make you try harder for that perfect line because otherwise you find yourself struggling to regain that speed while the other car "speeds" off with an additional 5-10 mph and at those low-end speeds the odds of catching up because they overshoot their braking or spin out is much lower.

Surprisingly, you do have to work harder for the win.

 

[Kent]

What's troublesome to me is the differing opinions I hear from time to time... Anytime I ask about FM2 and a Xbox360 owner answers (or someone who is known more on the GTP for attending x360 related threads) I get the same old "FM2 is the best" physics engine (more or less).

Then every so often the opposite opinion is presented and it throws me back to FM1...

With FM1 it was the same situation, even up to the release of FM2 people who strongly preffer FM over GT were making great claims for FM1 that mirrored what is now being said of FM2.
Take that and combine it with the personal experience of buying a Xbox and Fm1 just to see if those claims were true, and you've got one player who is hesitant to believe the claims of FM2 fans.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to believe that FM2 has physics that are truely better than most other games (including everything PD has done). Problem is, I see a relatively un-changed Ring, a stress on visual mods, and no great improvement on track list and suddenly I'm feeling like the media attention and reviews of FM2 are mirror images of FM1.

Bottom line:
The more I hear about Fm2 the more I want to play the game and test it for myself (without buying the console and game).

 

[Joey D]

The only game I've ever played with better physics then FM2 is GTR2, I always thought the physics were so-so on Forza 1, about on par with GT4.

There isn't really a stress on visual mods, you can add a body kit to some of the cars but all it does is add weight which actually makes the car slower. I don't understand why you would think there is a stress on visual modding. Sure there is the paint shop, but you don't have to ever use it if you don't want to. I use it because it's fun.

 

[Biggles]

Well obviously there are a lot of different opinions out there! I don't have a problem with some slower cars being in the mix, but if I wanted to go really slow, I'd just jump on my lawnmower...

(oh no, that;s Toca 3

 

[Dave A]

The only good advice Kent is for you to get around to trying it and to come to your own conclusion. A lot ofpeople think that GT4 had the driving physics spot on, it didn't. They we're good, but a long way from spot on. EPR is the same only I like where EPR get's it right more than where GT4 does. Forza 2 is similar still, and leaning more towards EPR's phyics model than GT4's. As result it's not perfect, no game is, but it's a good effort. The weight shifting, torque steer, grip transitions are all there and they all feel well done to me. Ofcourse, people that praise Forza 2 are generally going to be the people that hang around the XB360 forums, ie people that own XB360's and in my case, the only reason I'm really in the 360 forums is because of Forza 2.

Look at it this way, you know how bad Forza 1 was physics wise, but every now and then some guy would come along and start to say how much better Forza 1 was compared to GT4. This is no different, only in this case GT4 isn't rubbish in comparison, it's pretty much another case of GT4 v EPR, the reality is probably that both games get a fair ammount of stuff right and wrong, but the differences in what's right and wrong between them make for games that don't feel the same, but imo GT4 feels less right.

 

[Kent]

Well I suppose that's all there is to it...
However, just to make my point about my doubts...

I always thought the physics were so-so on Forza 1, about on par with GT4.

Now, to me, that's a far from encouraging as possible. I felt FM1 was way, way off par of GT4 (infact, everything in FM1 felt like NFS with an emphasis on braking... I mean, those FF cars in FM1 had no problems at all, which doesn't do it for me since I feel that FF should understeer atleast at some point... FFs in FM1 were like FFs in PGR2 which is fun but nothing close to realistic).

None the less, Dave A, I see your point quite well.
I know good and well that GT4 wasn't perfect.

On a side note, I'm sure what I've just said is to Joey D what his comments about FM1 being on par with GT4 were to me.

Wheel goes round and round and the only way to stop it is to test this game out already... Dang I wish there was a way for me to test the game!

 

[Joey D]

I didn't really like the physics of GT4 because every car had understeer which isn't true to life. FM1 was a little over zealous with the oversteer so it wasn't quite right either.

 

[Biggles]

I'm totally with you on this, Kent.

I was really reluctant to pay out the cash for a 360, & a wheel in order to try F2, especially since it really seems basically just a "new gen" version of F1, with a very limited line-up of new tracks & most of the emphasis on visual customization.

In addition, all this discussion of "realistic physics" seems to be totally meaningless to me unless you're using a wheel. I played Forza for 2 years with a controller, got pretty good at it, had fun, but when I finally tried GT4 with the DFP it suddenly felt like actually DRIVING A CAR! Maybe it's not totally ralistic. I wouldn't know: I don't generally fling my Sienna minivan round corners with tires screeching (don't think the wife & kids would appreciate it! ), but it's fairly convincing.

Without a good wheel F2 is inherently limited - so I'll stick with my G25 & GT4 until GT5 comes out & when I upgrade my computer to an intel-based(Bootcamp) Mac I will be able to try LFS or GTR2.

(I might also give Enthusia a try...)

 

[Joey D]

If you think Forza is focused just on visual customization you shouldn't be allowed to even talk about the game. There is a lot more to Forza then putting body kits on your car (which has a NEGATIVE effect) and putting vinyls on it. There is an extensive performance oriented aspect of the game as well.

 

[m7ammed]

the thing for me that makes me think that GT4 physics are poor is that no car in that game could ever do dounts ....... which soooooooo unrealistic , I just got FM2 and I will post up in a couple of days of what I think

 

[Kent]

If you think Forza is focused just on visual customization you shouldn't be allowed to even talk about the game.

I wouldn't take that sort of attitude...
Just as everyone here expects to be allowed their opinion, so is the member you are focusing these words towards. Keep that in mind as it is not simply a matter of "manners" but rather a matter of the Acceptable Use Policy.
Get my drift?

That said,
I disagree regarding the "understeer" of "every" car in GT4. Furthermore, a comment like that makes me wonder exactly how you drove to achieve an outcome such as that (since poorly driving any car can create understeer).
(I kid, I kid... )

 

[Wolfe]

I disagree regarding the "understeer" of "every" car in GT4. Furthermore, a comment like that makes me wonder exactly how you drove to achieve an outcome such as that (since poorly driving any car can create understeer).
(I kid, I kid... )

Oversteer in GT4 is modelled so incorrectly that it cannot be properly used to escape or avoid understeer with RWD or AWD cars, thus making understeer seem overbearing and inescapable. Power oversteer, shift-lock oversteer, lift-off oversteer...none of it works as it should. You can't even use weight transfer or braking oversteer, because those are also flawed -- even though every single car in the game has non-defeatable ABS, using the brakes almost always leads to understeer, as if you locked up the front wheels.

Kent, if you're still curious about the game and worried about plunking down the money for everything and then finding out it's crap, I suggest you re-read my evaluation of the physics, keeping in mind that A. I don't own a 360, and B. I thought the first game's physics were utter trash and a complete waste of time. I'm far from the Forza-loving XBOX owner that you feel you can't trust.

 

[Kent]

Oversteer in GT4 is modelled so incorrectly that it cannot be properly used to escape or avoid understeer with RWD or AWD cars, thus making understeer seem overbearing and inescapable. Power oversteer, shift-lock oversteer, lift-off oversteer...none of it works as it should. You can't even use weight transfer or braking oversteer, because those are also flawed -- even though every single car in the game has non-defeatable ABS, using the brakes almost always leads to understeer, as if you locked up the front wheels.

Kent, if you're still curious about the game and worried about plunking down the money for everything and then finding out it's crap, I suggest you re-read my evaluation of the physics, keeping in mind that A. I don't own a 360, and B. I thought the first game's physics were utter trash and a complete waste of time. I'm far from the Forza-loving XBOX owner that you feel you can't trust.

Well, first of all, it's not that I don't feel like I can trust Xbox owners.

Of course, that said... I don't exactly trust your evaluation after reading what you've just said about GT4.
Maybe it's because I'm a super pro with GT4 who runs every car with ease (although I doubt that) but much of what you said is contrary to everything I've seen.
Just as a few points... Lift-off oversteer, braking oversteer, power oversteer... All are present... JGTC NSX ("L.O.O.S."), RGT ("B.O."), McLaren F1 ("P.O.S.")... (I love the letters those make when abbreviating)...

Now, that isn't to say "you are wrong" and "I am right" but it is to say that in my opinion and experience, I can confidently disagree with much of what you have said.

Just how it goes... None the less I will check you evaluation and I will take your words with the same weight as any other member.
( I already read that... I thought it was going to a different thread... Indeed I had already read that post)

 

[Biggles]

If you think Forza is focused just on visual customization you shouldn't be allowed to even talk about the game.

I'm not saying that Forza 2 is only about visual customization. I have played Forza 1 (a lot) for over 2 years, so I'm pretty familiar with what Forza is about. What I am saying is that Forza 2 seems to have put a lot of time & energy into increasing the level of visual customization, (as well as performance customization) - Turn10 talks about it a lot in their comments & promotion. Presumably, all this customization comes at the cost of other things, like better graphics.

Personally, I have a limited interest in customizing & tuning my cars (although I certainly painted & tuned some of my cars in Forza 1): I would rather spend the time driving them. I appreciate other gamers might have a different interest from me.

As Forza 1 was already a long way ahead of GT4 in customization, it seems like a poor choice for Turn10 to focus so much on increased customization, rather than adressing some of the obvious weaknesses of Forza 1 (so-so graphics, & limited number of tracks - what they call "environments"). Similarly, it would be a big mistake for PD to put out GT5 with dozens of new tracks & hundreds of new cars, without addressing the "damage" & AI issues.

As far as a comparison of oversteer & understeer in GT4 & Forza 1 (can't comment on F2): I played Forza with a controller (& no assists) & it always involved a huge amount of screeching tires & burning rubber - it seemed almost impossible to feather the brakes & the overall effect was sort of "digital". With GT4 & the G25 wheel, with its superbly weighted pedals, braking into a corner seems completely natural & smooth - I can't say whether it's actually "realistic" - but it feels realistic.

I think I'll pick up a copy of Enthusia for comparison. What about Toca 3?

 

[Dave A]

Forza 2 is what a sequel should be, it's a better game overall. It doesn't have as many tracks as Forza 1, but when they're so much better to drive on so what. Forza 2 improves on Forza 1 in the following areas and more...
Graphics
Physics
Sounds
Content (every area except for track count, there's more cars, more mods etc)
Mechanical customisation and tuning
Visual customisation and tuning
Telemetary

 

[Joey D]

I wouldn't take that sort of attitude...
Just as everyone here expects to be allowed their opinion, so is the member you are focusing these words towards. Keep that in mind as it is not simply a matter of "manners" but rather a matter of the Acceptable Use Policy.
Get my drift?

Nothing violates the AUP in what I said. I was stating if you see Forza as a game along the lines of NFS or Midnight Club, you obliviously haven't played it and therefore should not be allowed to talk about it. If you haven't actually played the game how can you have a sound opinion on it? If you didn't like how I worded I do apologize but personally I see the AUP as saying you can't attack members personally or use profanity...neither is something I did.

He posted this statement:

most of the emphasis on visual customization.

Which is false and therefore makes it seem like he does not know what he is talking about when it comes to Forza. He can have his opinions but when he says that the most of the emphasis is on visual customization he is flat out wrong, Forza has far more in the department of performance tuning then anything else. I mean it allows drivetrain swaps for cripe sakes, not to mention on a good deal of the cars the only visual thing you can do is add splitters and a spoiler for downforce (same as GT), change your rims (same as GT), and put vinyls on the car. NFS puts more emphasis on visual tuning...not Forza.

I'm not saying that Forza 2 is only about visual customization....What I am saying is that Forza 2 seems to have put a lot of time & energy into increasing the level of visual customization

The customization is limited...very limited. When I went to put a body kit on my Cobalt SS I was surprised how many real life kits were actually missing. If anything Turn 10 should have put more time and energy and found true to life kits...they should have also added more hoods and given rammed air options for some of the cars. I see the visual stuff as very weak.

Presumably, all this customization comes at the cost of other things, like better graphics.

Errrr...no. The reason the graphics aren't as good in Forza is because Turn 10 sacrificed a lot in order to make the game run at 60fps...which is dumb. This is why there isn't night racings or even more cars on the track. Adding bumpers and rims don't really affect the graphic engine at all.

That said,
I disagree regarding the "understeer" of "every" car in GT4. Furthermore, a comment like that makes me wonder exactly how you drove to achieve an outcome such as that (since poorly driving any car can create understeer).
(I kid, I kid... )

I'm not a good driver in racing games, if you've paid attention to many of my posts over the years you would see that I've countlessly said I'm not great at them and I'm sure there are a few WRS that you can find that I entered and I was way off the pace set by everyone else. I will never claim to be good at racing games or video games in general.

I wasn't the only one who has complained about the GT and understeer issue. I'm sure you've seen many complaints from around the forum, although I can not vouch for everyone.

 

[Kent]

For matters of moderating... biggles, please avoid double posting by using the edit button. This will help to avoid reminders such as this one, as well as replies of your own being "Last edited by Kent on ___." (you don't want all your post labeled as "edited" by a mod now do you? )

Moving on...

Nothing violates the AUP in what I said. I was stating if you see Forza as a game along the lines of NFS or Midnight Club, you obliviously haven't played it and therefore should not be allowed to talk about it. If you haven't actually played the game how can you have a sound opinion on it? If you didn't like how I worded I do apologize but personally I see the AUP as saying you can't attack members personally or use profanity...neither is something I did.

Just for general reffernce...

You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harrass, threaten, nor attack anyone or any group. There will be no racially, sexually or physically abusive or inciteful language tolerated. Any abusive comments made by members will be removed by the Moderating staff and the user issued with a warning or banned, as deemed appropriate by the Moderating staff. No personal attacks on other members will be tolerated. If you question someone, it must be done in a reasonable and semi-friendly manner. Violating this rule will be grounds for suspension and/or permanent removal from the board.

This section of the AUP clearly shows that forcefully excluding someone from a discussion is a violation. The consequences for such actions are "as deemed by moderating staff" and so, I do not see a need for any official action in this case (assuming you understand that it is not acceptable to tell someone they can't express their opinion on the GTP. ).

That said, I hope we can get along and move on with the discussion of the generalized "battle between GT and Forza."

I'm not a good driver in racing games, if you've paid attention to many of my posts over the years you would see that I've countlessly said I'm not great at them and I'm sure there are a few WRS that you can find that I entered and I was way off the pace set by everyone else. I will never claim to be good at racing games or video games in general.

I'm sorry if I had offended you with my thoughtless statement.
My comments were indeed misplaced but they were not meant as a personal insult to you.

Rather, I was trying to insinuate that you're judgement of GT4's physics may have been contrary to other judgements. I tried to emphasis the non-personal nature of my criticisms by providing examples of cars that display certain characteristics in question. However, I was foolish to say "any car will understeer if you drive poorly." For that I apologize regarding any misunderstanding (none the less, the statement that "any car will understeer if poorly driven" stands true for every driving game, and in my experience, it is especially true with GT4).

Again, I apologize that I have offended you.

I wasn't the only one who has complained about the GT and understeer issue. I'm sure you've seen many complaints from around the forum, although I can not vouch for everyone.

I did not mean to, or attempt to suggest you were the only person to complain regarding GT4's understeering. In fact, I know there are many who feel much like you do.
None the less, I openly disagree with the "many who feel much like you do."

All's good I hope.
I meant no harm in my posting and was only trying to keep things open and friendly... I mean, if we can't politely exchange our views...