Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Kent]

See I would have to disagree with that, with the possible exception of Flugplatz I think they got the bumps down very, very well. Even the issues of taking off at the Flugplatz are not as exaggerated as many claim, the issue is more that we will be taking it at a much higher speed that you would in reality and with no risk of suspension damage or a seriously dangerous off. The Sport-Auto guide to the 'ring talks about how you should always crest it on the left and use brakes to help stop the car leaving the ground.



In addition the entire guide is littered with warnings about how nasty the bumps can be at high speed.


Regards

Scaff

Agreed, I've got about 4 gigs of nothing but on-board Nurburgring videos and GT4 really nailed it.
And like you've pointed out, the jump at flugplatz is more a matter of no fear in video games than a matter of poorly modeling the elevation change in the game. Fact is, no one in real life would run the Ring as fast as some of the laps we've done in GT4.
Heck, I took the Arcade McLaren F1 down to 5'26.9!!! I'd love to see someone match that time in real life (might be possible with an amazing driver and a modern F1 but even then I have my doubts).

 

[Hun200kmh]

I'll have to agree on that also. I made a side by side TV comparison of me doing a lap of the Ring in the 787B and Derek Bell doin' it on his 962 (or 956, I'm not sure). I had to wait for Bell from time to time just to keep us in the same area of the track

It's wasn't a flying lap from Bell (Ickx passes him at some point and goes away), but it was a fast one. And I'm sure I could go even faster than Ickx ...

 

[Biggles]

Took EPR for a spin last night. After picking my jaw up off the floor following the intro movie, I tackled a few of the Free Run tracks. I can't say I was overly impressed.

The graphics remind me a bit of Rallisport Challenge with worse environments & better car models. The handling of the cars is fairly convincing, but I don't get the feedback on the wheel that I would hope for. I enjoyed the rally tracks the most, simply because you get a good feel for the surface. Anyway, it doesn't surprise me that it wasn't a popular game - aside from anything else, it is truly weird! However, I will over time venture deeper into the game to see what secrets lie within...

To get back to the original topic: I really feel that overall - graphics, physics & content (& available whee)l - GT4 offered the best driving experience on a console. Forza did a number of things much better than GT4 & Forza 2 improved on all those things while offering next-gen HD graphics - thereby "taking the lead" in the sim wars. However, I am 100% confident that when GT5 finally makes an appearence it will represent a much bigger step forward from GT4, than Forza 2 represents from Forza 1.

 

[Joey D]

However, I am 100% confident that when GT5 finally makes an appearence it will represent a much bigger step forward from GT4, than Forza 2 represents from Forza 1.

That comes with the longer development time the PD is giving GT5.

 

[harrytuttle]

The biggest issue I have with poly-deformation is that in most cases it simply effects the outer skin of the car, now modeling the effect of a collision on what happens to the components under the skin is a differing matter and does need significantly more time.

Personally I would like to see a step up from simple poly deformation to something a little more involved.

Having tried to follow this discussion, I think going down the "realistic damage" route starts to turn the game into a crash simulator, rather than a driving simulator. Until IIHS and NCAP turn over their terabytes of data to coordinate with the terabytes of data from the manufacturers, a truly accurate crash model just isn't going to happen. It's not a matter of computing power, because what's only possible on a supercomputer today will be a Playstation game tomorrow.

But I have yet to see a reasonable damage model since Porsche Unleashed. It was simple, and severe crashes could end the race for you. Granted, that game really only had 6 chassis to work with, but given that it's 7 years old and had a far lower budget, is it too much to ask to create a multilayered damage mesh model? One 3D mesh for the body (deformable), one 2D map for the mechanicals layout (a hit at coordinates x,y refers to broken rear left suspension mountings). Far simpler than worrying about how aluminum vs. steel vs. CFRP would hold up at 45 MPH.

I don't know; I'm not a programmer, nor an automotive engineer, but I'm all in favor of making things as simple as possible, and definitely think that one of the things GT needs to be taken seriously in a post-Forza environment is damage, and not some candy-coated falsification that Forza has. "The drive of your life" rings hollow when -- to the average gamer -- other games offer more.

 

[Car-less]

Sadly, I didn't think it was much of an improvement. The graphics looks good but the course is way too flat and smooth, way too wide, and most of the tight turning sections have been stretched out to match the rest of the course.

Basically, that it's just good enough to keep me from racing the Ring. Not bad enough to keep me from playing the game, but certainly not good enough to keep me playing the Ring like I've done in GT4.

I agree that the track is too flat and smooth, but what really got me, and what would prevent me from attempting more than a couple of laps at a time is the view. I'm not sure if it is forced perspective or what, but to me it felt like the car was steering from the rear wheels. If this was bothering me in just one lap, I hate to think how I'd feel after a 24 hour race!

 

[unv412]

Anyway, it doesn't surprise me that it wasn't a popular game - aside from anything else, it is truly weird! However, I will over time venture deeper into the game to see what secrets lie within...

bro give it some time, then if you truly apreciate racing sim games you will never turn back! I had almost finished GT4 before playing EPR and now the only time I play GT4 is when me and my cuz want to drive our cars in a game (r31 GTS-R skyline versus MA70 supra grp A) which no other game has.After 10 minute were back to EPR and racing on free race mode to unlock cars (total imersion as your not allowed to go of track or bump cars otherwise you get black flag and cannot unlock cars!!!!!) and lovin it.

Grafics wise the cars i find are rendered more beautifuly with greater detail in headlights and taillights (nice glow under brakes) and a more natural camera view from behind car as you race. Background scenery not so good (GT4 wins)

Has anyone else got a reveiw of FM2 s physics compared to GT4 or EPR????
I asked this question b4 and it looks like only 2 people can give an opinion...anyone else????

 

[Biggles]

Grafics wise the cars i find are rendered more beautifuly with greater detail in headlights and taillights (nice glow under brakes) and a more natural camera view from behind car as you race.

Does that mean you're playing EPR in 3rd person? For me the superiority of GT4 is dependent on playing in 1st person WITH THE WHEEL & I don't think it's possible to really describe anything as being a "sim" if it's being played with a controller.

 

[unv412]

um....never said anything about playing it with a controller???? What i was saying is that veiw I use ( ie bumper cam/bonnet veiw/behind car veiw) is more natural in comparison to GT4's same view. You'll find EPR is a totally useless game without a DFP or G25.......by the way, can u please define what "pay in the 1st person" means.....I dont understand?

 

[Biggles]

1st person = bonnet view (or cockpit).

Wasn't commenting on your playing in particular - just commenting because I played Forza 1 "behind car" (3rd person) with a controller for a long time (no decent wheel available) then started playing GT4 "bonnet view" with G25 & realised that it doesn't matter how accurate the physics are, it can't really be a "sim" experience if you're not using a wheel & 1st person..

What I find odd about EPR is why konami would choose to develop a more rigorous "sim" style racer & give it such weird, surreal track selection.

 

[Dave A]

Does that mean you're playing EPR in 3rd person? For me the superiority of GT4 is dependent on playing in 1st person WITH THE WHEEL & I don't think it's possible to really describe anything as being a "sim" if it's being played with a controller.

Whether a game is a sim or not is determined soley by the games engine, the way it compute physics etc in the game. Not by the method of control you use. LFS is a sim regardless of whether you play with a keyboard and mouse or a wheel.

 

[Scaff]

Having tried to follow this discussion, I think going down the "realistic damage" route starts to turn the game into a crash simulator, rather than a driving simulator. Until IIHS and NCAP turn over their terabytes of data to coordinate with the terabytes of data from the manufacturers, a truly accurate crash model just isn't going to happen. It's not a matter of computing power, because what's only possible on a supercomputer today will be a Playstation game tomorrow.

I thin k you may be rather underestimating just how serious the computing power used here is, and don't forget they don't have to do it in real-time for half a dozen or more cars .

That aside you seem to have missed the bit in which I agreed that full damage simulation was impossible due to both systems limits and manufacturer approval (or rather the lack of it).

But I have yet to see a reasonable damage model since Porsche Unleashed. It was simple, and severe crashes could end the race for you. Granted, that game really only had 6 chassis to work with, but given that it's 7 years old and had a far lower budget, is it too much to ask to create a multilayered damage mesh model? One 3D mesh for the body (deformable), one 2D map for the mechanicals layout (a hit at coordinates x,y refers to broken rear left suspension mountings). Far simpler than worrying about how aluminum vs. steel vs. CFRP would hold up at 45 MPH.

Porsche Unleashed was not bad for its age, but again far to simplistic; TRD3, RBR and F1:CE have all moved well beyond that. The basic mesh model and internals map is pretty much the place we are at currently with those three (and I would imagine FM2), its a case of how well it is implemented and so far its still to simplistic.

I don't know; I'm not a programmer, nor an automotive engineer, but I'm all in favor of making things as simple as possible, and definitely think that one of the things GT needs to be taken seriously in a post-Forza environment is damage, and not some candy-coated falsification that Forza has. "The drive of your life" rings hollow when -- to the average gamer -- other games offer more.

You will not find me disagreeing with that. One thing that is worth noting, teh PS3 is already capable of putting together a good 'full' destruction damage model. It may be in an arcade racer, but the damage in Motorstorm is impressive to say the least, and without 'real' vehicles can be as fully destructive as they like.

What I find odd about EPR is why konami would choose to develop a more rigorous "sim" style racer & give it such weird, surreal track selection.

Its always been a bit of a bug of mine with Enthusia, but give it time, while some of the tracks are a bit strange (a couple do remind me of Ridge Racer) the later tracks are excellent. In particular Winterstraum (in which the quality of EPR's low speed physics model comes to the front), Dragon Range, a simply brilliant Japanese mountain road (perfect Initial D stuff) and Mirage Crossing which is a quite unique point to point desert track (and great with the bigger 4x4s).

As to why they did it, well the most likely explanation is money, real tracks take time to map in the real world and cost to licence. For all we know they spend most of the budget on the 'ring.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Biggles]

Whether a game is a sim or not is determined soley by the games engine, the way it compute physics etc in the game. Not by the method of control you use. LFS is a sim regardless of whether you play with a keyboard and mouse or a wheel.

What I am saying is the game may be a sim, but the experience of playing it is very different depending on whether you use a wheel or a controller IMO.

Its always been a bit of a bug of mine with Enthusia, but give it time, while some of the tracks are a bit strange (a couple do remind me of Ridge Racer) the later tracks are excellent. In particular Winterstraum (in which the quality of EPR's low speed physics model comes to the front), Dragon Range, a simply brilliant Japanese mountain road (perfect Initial D stuff) and Mirage Crossing which is a quite unique point to point desert track (and great with the bigger 4x4s).

As to why they did it, well the most likely explanation is money, real tracks take time to map in the real world and cost to licence. For all we know they spend most of the budget on the 'ring.

Well I can understand the fictional tracks: GT4 has lots of them, but none that go through the middle of a cave, or around St Mark's Square ! But I look forward to opening some of the other tracks...

 

[QSpec]

gran turismo has more realistic driving and better graphics, the only thing they need to do is match and beat the features forza has (damage, exterior modifications, custom paint, engine swaps etc.)

 

[Dave A]

What I am saying is the game may be a sim, but the experience of playing it is very different depending on whether you use a wheel or a controller IMO.

That is very true and very valid and everyones take on it will be different. Imo using the DFP in GT4 exaggerated it's odd tyre behaviour. Also the power delivery was even more unthrilling than when using the pad. You floor the pedal in a real car and you get a surge of power to the wheels that GT4 flat out doesn't simulate, driving with the wheel still feels toned down and flawed imo. Also like Wolfe, I much prefer playing EPR with the wheel, than GT4 with it.

I remember before I had the DFP I had the first demo of LFS S1, even with the keyboard and mouse it still felt more right and far more satisfying getting corners right than GT4 ever did with a wheel. Ofcourse, with the DFP it's even better but LFS was always better than GT4 imo regardless of what I was playing it with.

 

[Wolfe]

...like Wolfe, I much prefer playing EPR with the wheel, than GT4 with it.

I suppose that's true, but that would imply that I use a wheel with the PS2...and I don't.

In fact, I've spent more time using a DFP with GT4 -- to get a feel for it compared to the DS2 (the force-feedback is good, but like you said, the flaws are more glaring, except for the exaggerated snap-back overcorrection, which is lessened a bit) -- than I have with any wheel on Enthusia (DFP - Once. G25 - Once).

Part of the problem is that Enthusia's force-feedback isn't that good (about as bad as LFS' used to be), but the other part is that I'm lazy and like a good framerate, and the only easy way to play with a wheel on the PS2 is to hook it up to my PC's TV tuner card, which lowers quality and framerate if you want a "live" image.

Besides, as you also explained, Live4speed, a good sim doesn't need a fancy wheel to "feel" right. It simply is right (or rather close, in EPR's case).

I still don't really understand why so many people insist that Enthusia can't be played with the Dual Shock 2...but I tend to leave it be, because I'm in an even smaller minority on that issue than I am in preferring EPR over GT4.

 

[unv412]

I still don't really understand why so many people insist that Enthusia can't be played with the Dual Shock 2...but I tend to leave it be, because I'm in an even smaller minority on that issue than I am in preferring EPR over GT4.

Maybe people can play EPR and GT4 with DS2 , but most prefer to play with a steering wheel (as all driving games should be played!!!). 👍 I for one respect your choice, but at the same time pity you for not having played EPR with DFP enough LOL. "Come in from the cold my BROTHER and bask in the GLORY that is EPR + DFP"

Again as I said anyone got anymore comparisons on FM2 Physics???????
Im from Sydney OZ and FM2 aint out just yet.

 

[Noremac55]

i heard that there is only going to be damage on race cars, is this true or are they just making it up.
please say thay are, otherwise the PD and the Gran turismo franchise are really looking down that barrel of Forza motorsport 2 gun

 

[Bram Turismo]

gran turismo has more realistic driving and better graphics, the only thing they need to do is match and beat the features forza has (damage, exterior modifications, custom paint, engine swaps etc.)

If you read the last few pages, you'd know that GT4 does not have more realistic driving...

 

[Dave A]

Maybe people can play EPR and GT4 with DS2 , but most prefer to play with a steering wheel (as all driving games should be played!!!). 👍 I for one respect your choice, but at the same time pity you for not having played EPR with DFP enough LOL. "Come in from the cold my BROTHER and bask in the GLORY that is EPR + DFP"

Regardless of preference, most people actually do play GT4 with a DS2 pad, not a wheel. There's a relatively small number of wheels made and sold compared to pads and compared to copies of GT4 there's a small percentage that will be using a DFP. I'd hazzard a guess that more play EPR wit hthe pad too, though not that many copies of EPR were sold so that's only a guess.

 

[unv412]

^^theres truth in your comment about percentages. I guess that this being a gt forum and not say.....a Halo3 forum... I expected most of the GT players would infact use a wheel.Maybe I'm wrong.Availability and monetary factors aside,without a wheel you wouldnt be doing the games justice in my opinion......bit like playin the old "time crisis " shooter game without the infared namco pistols(damb i wasted alot of latenights hangin with the cuzins playin that.lol)

 

[Joey D]

I hate using a wheel in racing games.

 

[dunkee]

All I can say is that FM2 really is an awesome game. I love playing it..I will probably end up playing it more than GT2. The physics rock but there's just so much to do. It's been very challenging and entertaining. Even auction house is fun. I never imagined it would be so much fun bidding on cars. I made this Elise and got mad mola for it!

Anyways I won't stay here for too long..I was just curious where this thread was at. Back to having fun 👍

 

[Joey D]

That's a sweet look Lotus!

 

[dunkee]

Thanks

 

[Biggles]

Part of the problem is that Enthusia's force-feedback isn't that good (about as bad as LFS' used to be), but the other part is that I'm lazy and like a good framerate, and the only easy way to play with a wheel on the PS2 is to hook it up to my PC's TV tuner card, which lowers quality and framerate if you want a "live" image.

Is that a typo or am I missing something?

This discussion is going round & round. I can't comment on games I haven't played but... I do know Forza 1 very, very well. When I recently started playing GT4 for the first time, I started from the beginning with a wheel & from the first moment it felt a lot more like driving a car than Forza ever did, & the tracks like Nurburgring & Laguna Seca felt like real-life tracks rather than video game tracks.

Forza 1 has better customization, better AI, & damage, (not to mention Online) all of which make racing in Forza 1 a lot of fun & very challenging. BUT the bottom line is IMO it feels a lot less like real driving than GT4. My strong suspicion is that the feel of Forza 2 is very much like Forza 1, just improved: improved graphics, improved physics, improved AI etc. What was very disappointing to me was the limited number of new tracks & the M$ wheel, which is clearly inferior to the DFP, not to mention the G25 (ironically I have the M$ wheel sitting on my floor at the minute - I'm going to take it back). In both of these areas GT4 is streets ahead of Forza 1 & 2, & I'm living in the expectation that GT5, when it eventually comes out will address the shortcomings of GT4 (which is a game on a very old piece of hardware) & provide a significantly superior driving experience to Forza 2. 👍

 

[FoolKiller]

I made this Elise and got mad mola for it!

Do the brakes look like neons in-game or is that just an effect of the still shot? They just seem like they are lit up instead of glowing from heat.
Otherwise that is a nice looking car. You did a good job.

 

[shawtyoner]

Unfortunately, FM2 really exagerates heat from the brakes. Even with stock brakes under heavy braking, they will glow which is kinda nutty. Those wheels are sweet, really work well with that Elise.

 

[dunkee]

It's actually an effect from the still shot. Increasing exposure gives drama to the pics.

 

[Biggles]

Just found this, which indirectly may have some bearing on this topic:

http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2007/06/18/blu-ray.html