Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Joey D]

Wow that sounds like a big step forward, I really want to play it so I can compare. I'm glad the GT series is being fixed.

 

[FoolKiller]

Wow that sounds like a big step forward, I really want to play it so I can compare. I'm glad the GT series is being fixed.

And that was using R3 tires, which is the softest available.

It also has a Drift Trial mode, which wouldn't have worked so well in GT4, so I think PD was actually trying to make apoint that it was fixed.

I can post a video of me oversteering and maybe even purposely do a dougnut if you want. I would offer a drifting video, but I apparently suck because I usually spin and hit a wall, garnering no points. It would take me a while because I would have to move my PS3 next to my PC to capture the footage, but I could get it up this week if you want.

 

[Joey D]

I would like to see a video if you could manage it, I'm pretty happy they actually fixed the problems.

 

[Biggles]

Forza is better the GT in the following ways:
- Sound
- Physics
- Has damage

Also much better AI (+ of course on-line).

IMO Forza offers a better racing experience, but GT4 offers a better driving experience. Just took an M5 for a couple of laps aroung the Ring with my G25: honestly, Forza still cannot touch it for an immersive, driving experience.

 

[scandisk]

GTHD DOUGHNUT VIDS


http://www.youtube.com/v/3ziR2Al6VSM


http://youtube.com/watch?v=048rsNwGJNU

 

[scandisk]

*sorry double post*

 

[Diab]

At the moment imo the only things GT has over Forza is:

GT
Track Selection (though Sebring and Mugello are excellent)
Nordschleife (unfortunately Turn 10 still think this needs to be made fun for online)
Replays (no contest though FM2 does have some good moments)
Wheel support (MS Wheel is pretty crap tbh)

and that's it.

Forza 2 like it or not has set a new standard in console racers for:

AI - GT's is braindead compared to this.
Online - Well that's a given.
Sound, including engine, environment, tires and crashing.
Customisation - Again no contest.
Tuning - so many parts and options including drivetrain swaps.
Painting and Livery Editor - Your car is virtually never the same as someone else.
Physics - Cars feel like they should, I've only driven a couple but from what I could gather from the game, it was pretty solid. Those talking about weight, try driving a Muscle Car then a small hatchback, now give me your complaints about this.

Equal
Choice of cars, now I say this because Forza has the most exotic of cars and also the everyday runabouts but not so much whereas GT has many many cars but most of them are dull but hey the variety is still there. So to me they both are equal in this regard.

I know this is a GT board and believe it or not I am an avid GT fan, but not a fanboy, PD has sat on their arse for too long with the same formula and arrogance at their series and I personally think it's great that Forza 2 has taken the top spot imo of console racers. Will PD actually get it's finger out for GT5, I hope so otherwise the Xbox 360 is the console racers system of choice and that's a fact whether you despise Microsoft or are too much of a GT muppet to see the good in another title, well unfortunately you are missing out on something fantastic and I laugh at those who at this moment of time still rate GTHD and the PS3 as the best right now.

To the original question of the thread topic title, yes they are and they will continue to do so if they don't do sfa about it.

I can't wait to see the replies to this.

@scan: Thanks for showing those videos, it's good to see they at least changed something that we have wanted for the last 6 years !

Also remember in most people's eyes: Gameplay > Graphics.

Thank you.

 

[Biggles]

I would pretty much agree with everything above, BUT that is comparing GT4, a 3 year old game on a very old console, to Forza 2, a brand new game on a next-gen console. The opportunity is there for GT5 to leapfrog F2 in a serious way on the PS3. And as a G25 owner: there's simply no way of getting around the wheel issue.

I think the thing that pushed me over the edge in deciding not to get a 360 & F2, was the very limited selection of new tracks, the wheel (& those annoying replays again).

As far as gameplay>graphics, while that may be true (& in any case F2 graphics are obviously better than GT4's), I think that in a very real sense, graphics are part of the gameplay.

 

[FoolKiller]

GTHD DOUGHNUT VIDS

Thanks, you saved me the trouble.

Oh, when embedding You Tube videos don't put the whole link in, just the jumble of letters and numbers at the end of the link.

For instance your first video is from:
http://www.youtube.com/v/[B]3ziR2Al6VSM[/B] You just need to put in the part I bolded. Then it looks like this:


and this:


I messed my first couple up too.

At the moment imo the only things GT has over Forza is:

Amazingly it has anything when it is years old. Says something about how good the game is.

Equal
Choice of cars, now I say this because Forza has the most exotic of cars and also the everyday runabouts but not so much whereas GT has many many cars but most of them are dull but hey the variety is still there. So to me they both are equal in this regard.

I've made it no secret that I disagree with this point of view and let me explain why. 1) Limit your car choices and you find just a few that really are fun for you over time. Have lots and lots and you find yourself still exploring possibilities with a car you haven't tried yet. 2) When it comes to video games exotics are....not so exotic. I have been driving virtual Ferraris since I owned a Commodore 64. Granted they weren't all sim, but I could have driven them. And if a reason for not having them is some other game has a contract, well that means it isn't something that would make your game stand out. I didn't drive a Nissan Pao until GT4. I didn't even know it existed. That was a very fun find.

Let me ask this. If GT had Ferraris, Porsches and Lambos since GT1 would they be so super special now? I would hazard a guess that they would be something that would be driven so much the rest of the game is forgotten or it eventually becomes just another car in a game full of cars. In GT:HD I loved having the Ferrari, got excited, drove it around, and found I actually do better in a Lancer.

So when it comes down to it I realize that I do want the exotics, but not because they are exotics. I want them so that I have even more variety in my car game. Mostly I want them so that there will be the ALMS GT2 class Ferraris and Porsches so that I can have what is undoubtedly the most exciting races this season.

otherwise the Xbox 360 is the console racers system of choice and that's a fact whether you despise Microsoft or are too much of a GT muppet to see the good in another title, well unfortunately you are missing out on something fantastic and I laugh at those who at this moment of time still rate GTHD and the PS3 as the best right now.

How is it that in one paragraph you went from things being your point of view to cold-hard fact because you said so? I didn't like Forza 1, that doesn't make me wrong. I seriously hated Halo 2 because they decided to only half try at their single-player, that doesn't make me wrong, even if 90% of Halo fans think it is great because of the multiplayer. That is because these are my opinions and I don't expect anyone else to agree, but I also expect them to not laugh at me because of them as if we are fifth graders and I prefer Digimon over Pokemon.

And I don't own a 360 because the few PS3 titles that are out excited me more than a year's worth of 360 games. And if you pop into the PS3 threads you will see that it is F1:CE and the PS3 that are getting such high likings. When I was asking about it before getting my PS3 I had one tell me that was the best racing game of all that he had played to date, and then admitted he hadn't tried FM2 yet.

I can't wait to see the replies to this.

Had you not suddenly taken the "my opinion is better than all of yours, ha ha ha," attitude then it wouldn't be worth the wait.

Also remember in most people's eyes: Gameplay > Graphics.

This I completely agree with, which is why I bought a Wii before even my PS3 and my first PSN downloaded game was......Q-bert (nostalgia FTW). If that doesn't show I'm not a fanboy then nothing will. And so far I still prefer the full motion sports games on a Wii rather than the ultra-realistic looking versions on the other systems.

And I really think that if the Wii designed a proper mounted and solid steering wheel accesory that the remote would fit into they could have the potential for a decent sim racer, even if the graphics aren't so great. It would lack FFB though, so some people wouldn't like it.

 

[Diab]

Foolkiller fair point but I am talking about right here right now the 360 is the better choice for the console sim racer, FM2 is a fantastic game and Turn 10 has given us GT fans what we have wanted and asked for so much in the GT series in only 4 years what it is (maybe) going to take PD 10 years to do ! I mean if the only problems with the game are dodgy replays and a lack of tracks that can always be filled with DLC (unfortunately but they're all going this way) then why is it bad for me to say, look those of you who are waiting for GT because it is GT should really try Forza 2 and see for yourself what Gran Turismo should have been by now. We keep getting the same grief from PD and the usual rubbish of "we won't do it until we can do it right" which basically means "sorry not this decade" it appears. Kazunori Yamauchi has been saying he has been waiting for a system powerful enough to do the damage properly since PS1 and now we're what, almost 10 years on and he's still dodging the question with the same response.

I love Forza 2 but not because of what it is but due to the fact it will hopefully make PD pull their finger out and actually make a worthy competitor and take back or at least sit opposite Forza 2 at the top of the console racer throne BUT if they [PD] just do their usual then we'll still be saying the same things with GT7 and PS4 and I'm sure Forza 3 or even 4 will be riding high.

This "we don't know if your typical gamer will like a more realistic approach" speech we keep getting when regarding Physics has been shown by Forza 2 that it's easily solved by giving options of control. Should the car have TCS, should they have a guide and should their opponents be easy or as difficult as possible from the start.

The guy above said that we are comparing Forza 2 to GT4 and whereas GTHD is essentially running on a GT4 engine (or something like that, at least I hope it is as it looks awful in some aspects) the thing is if you look at the evolution of the GT series ...wait evolution is the wrong word as not much has changed with GT, look at the preceding title to the last you will notice the only noticeable real change is in content and never to the actual core of the game and it's gameplay. AI is still rank, sound is abysmal, that god awful tyre screech sound effect, the lack of punishment for bad driving, no damage since GT2 and even then it wasn't visual.

GT might keep some in it's camp by it's slogan "The Real Driving Simulator" but I personally want to race and have a good one at that and feel challenged, I don't think I've ever felt that in any of the GT's tbh.

 

[Joey D]

I'm pretty impressed with the donut video, I'm glad they fixed the problem.

 

[Dave A]

It didn't look all that different to the donuts in GT4 imo.

 

[Joey D]

I couldn't ever do donuts in GT4, guess I didn't know what I was doing.

 

[Dave A]

Fair enough, that said I wouldn't expect GT:HD to be vastly different to GT4 since the core physics engine is GT4's just tweaked and not the new one that PD was working on that we haven't heared anything about since GT:HD's release.

 

[Joey D]

Maybe I just sucked at figuring it out or something, I'm going to have to give it another go on GT4. I still would like to play GT:HD and see what's changed and I hope GT5 is decent when it comes out. I think it will be the game that finally makes me go out and get a PS3.

 

[redline]

Actually, no, it doesn't depend on who you ask. The key word in your comment is "think", at the end of the day one is more realsitic than the other and that's regardless of what you or I think. Take note that I'm not actually putting either game forwards, I think both have good and bad points. However, I didn't feel that GT4 felt very realistic, and that was using the DFP and simulation tyres. I can tell you what GT4 get's wrong more than I can Forza 2, but that may have more to do with experience and seeing and taking part in lenthy debates regarding it's accuracy.

Yes, like i said, depends on who you ask, everyone has their own opinions, in my opinion GT4 is more accurate than Forza2, and looks more realistic to boot.

 

[FoolKiller]

Foolkiller fair point but I am talking about right here right now the 360 is the better choice for the console sim racer, FM2 is a fantastic game and Turn 10 has given us GT fans what we have wanted and asked for so much in the GT series in only 4 years what it is (maybe) going to take PD 10 years to do !

Right now I have more issues with the 360 than I do FM2. The fact that I have to actually pay more to get a 360 to have everything I already have in my PS3, less actually makes me not want to jump out and buy a 360 just because FM2 looks really, really good (which is what I think). Without playing it I will agree that FM2 is most likely your best option for sim racing on a console. But that doesn't mean those who want to wait to see what GT manages shouldn't continue to wait.

It is also for Turn 10 to come to the game this late, look around and see what they need to jump on. If Forza 1 had been equal to GT1 it woudl have been laughable at best. No they created their first version after four generations of GT, of course they appear to be giving gamers their desire in a quicker time, they started later with better technology at their fingertips. That does not make Turn 10 better than PD.Using someone else's hindsight in your first couple of attempts does not make you better, it just makes you observant.

I mean if the only problems with the game are dodgy replays and a lack of tracks that can always be filled with DLC (unfortunately but they're all going this way) then why is it bad for me to say, look those of you who are waiting for GT because it is GT should really try Forza 2 and see for yourself what Gran Turismo should have been by now.

Because I don't want to spend close to $600, or more, to try something I didn't like before. Sounds reasonable to me.

We keep getting the same grief from PD and the usual rubbish of "we won't do it until we can do it right" which basically means "sorry not this decade" it appears. Kazunori Yamauchi has been saying he has been waiting for a system powerful enough to do the damage properly since PS1 and now we're what, almost 10 years on and he's still dodging the question with the same response.

I guess you didn't see this huh? Sorry it is a blog that links to an actual story but I can't get access to the actual story from work. It also mentions damage, as well as other things, if you follow the car damage link near the bottom. Looks to me like Kaz is talking.
http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/06/21/in-car-view-confirmed-for-gran-turismo-5/

I love Forza 2 but not because of what it is but due to the fact it will hopefully make PD pull their finger out and actually make a worthy competitor and take back or at least sit opposite Forza 2 at the top of the console racer throne BUT if they [PD] just do their usual then we'll still be saying the same things with GT7 and PS4 and I'm sure Forza 3 or even 4 will be riding high.

How do you want the formula to change? So far all I hear is a desire for car damage and the big 3 exotics. Those just sound like asdditions to the current formula. You sound like you want a completely different game when you talk about changing the formula. What would you like them to change or would the above additions be enough?

whereas GTHD is essentially running on a GT4 engine (or something like that, at least I hope it is as it looks awful in some aspects)

I must be looking at a different game, or it looks much, much better on a non-HDTV. There is definitely a graphical and physical difference, although it is far from what I woudl expect GT5 to present.

the thing is if you look at the evolution of the GT series ...wait evolution is the wrong word as not much has changed with GT, look at the preceding title to the last you will notice the only noticeable real change is in content and never to the actual core of the game and it's gameplay.

What do you think should change about the core and the gameplay?

AI is still rank, sound is abysmal, that god awful tyre screech sound effect, the lack of punishment for bad driving, no damage since GT2 and even then it wasn't visual.

AI and damage effects on driving are the only gameplay things and the rest is cosmetic. None of this is core changes. Do you want a career mode? More arcadish, the way Forza felt to me? What core change do you think should happen? One of the things I have enjoyed about teh GT series is how the game is laid out and is somewhat open-ended in how you can play it. I can go through and list tweaks that I think woudl make me enjoy it more, but I can't imagine what kind of change to the core of the game would help.

GT might keep some in it's camp by it's slogan "The Real Driving Simulator" but I personally want to race and have a good one at that and feel challenged, I don't think I've ever felt that in any of the GT's tbh.

When was the last time you earned 150-200 A-spec points and didn't feel challenged (and using the Dodge Ram or knocking the opponents off the course don't count as being earned)?

 

[Dave A]

Yes, like i said, depends on who you ask, everyone has their own opinions, in my opinion GT4 is more accurate than Forza2, and looks more realistic to boot.

------------Point----



---Head--------------

Which one is more realistic is not personal opinion. Which one you think is more realistic is, as the key word is think. As I said. But one is ultimately more realisitc than other regardless of how easy or hard it is to determine which one that is or what other people may think.

 

[redline]

Right now I have more issues with the 360 than I do FM2. The fact that I have to actually pay more to get a 360 to have everything I already have in my PS3, less actually makes me not want to jump out and buy a 360 just because FM2 looks really, really good (which is what I think). Without playing it I will agree that FM2 is most likely your best option for sim racing on a console. But that doesn't mean those who want to wait to see what GT manages shouldn't continue to wait.

It is also for Turn 10 to come to the game this late, look around and see what they need to jump on. If Forza 1 had been equal to GT1 it woudl have been laughable at best. No they created their first version after four generations of GT, of course they appear to be giving gamers their desire in a quicker time, they started later with better technology at their fingertips. That does not make Turn 10 better than PD.Using someone else's hindsight in your first couple of attempts does not make you better, it just makes you observant.


Because I don't want to spend close to $600, or more, to try something I didn't like before. Sounds reasonable to me.


I guess you didn't see this huh? Sorry it is a blog that links to an actual story but I can't get access to the actual story from work. It also mentions damage, as well as other things, if you follow the car damage link near the bottom. Looks to me like Kaz is talking.
http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/06/21/in-car-view-confirmed-for-gran-turismo-5/


How do you want the formula to change? So far all I hear is a desire for car damage and the big 3 exotics. Those just sound like asdditions to the current formula. You sound like you want a completely different game when you talk about changing the formula. What would you like them to change or would the above additions be enough?


I must be looking at a different game, or it looks much, much better on a non-HDTV. There is definitely a graphical and physical difference, although it is far from what I woudl expect GT5 to present.


What do you think should change about the core and the gameplay?


AI and damage effects on driving are the only gameplay things and the rest is cosmetic. None of this is core changes. Do you want a career mode? More arcadish, the way Forza felt to me? What core change do you think should happen? One of the things I have enjoyed about teh GT series is how the game is laid out and is somewhat open-ended in how you can play it. I can go through and list tweaks that I think woudl make me enjoy it more, but I can't imagine what kind of change to the core of the game would help.


When was the last time you earned 150-200 A-spec points and didn't feel challenged (and using the Dodge Ram or knocking the opponents off the course don't count as being earned)?

Well said friend, i'm sick and tired of hearing "i want damage, damage and more damage"

Anyone who has played F1CE on PS3 online, knows what damage leads to, a ramming session because hardly anyone can drive properly, so you end up having a horrible online experience because the guy behind you braked a little too late into the ffirst bend and your race is over, it aint fun.

My opinion? no damage, i'd rather have realtime weather effects that can change during a race, and deformable scenery, barriers etc, and i want my car to be absolutely filthy by the end of a 24Hr endurance race that gets dark when it should, i thank you.

 

[Biggles]

Which one is more realistic is not personal opinion. Which one you think is more realistic is, as the key word is think. As I said. But one is ultimately more realisitc than other regardless of how easy or hard it is to determine which one that is or what other people may think.

This is not neccessarily true: I would say some aspects of Forza are more realistic & some aspects of GT are more realistic. There's no reason why one or the other must overall be more realistic.

 

[redline]

------------Point----



---Head--------------

Which one is more realistic is not personal opinion. Which one you think is more realistic is, as the key word is think. As I said. But one is ultimately more realisitc than other regardless of how easy or hard it is to determine which one that is or what other people may think.

You obviously like repeating what other people say in your own words, it does not ultimately matter which one is more realistic, what matters is which one I percieve to be more realistic. I percieve GT4 to be more realistic, i base this on 15 odd years of driving experience, thats all that matters to me, and you, my friend can only do the same.

 

[Dave A]

I never said it did, you seem to be taking things from what I said that were never in it in the first place.

 

[Joey D]

Dave's saying there is one that may be perceived more realistic and there is one that is.

 

[Scaff]

It didn't look all that different to the donuts in GT4 imo.

Having done back to back tests on both GT4 and GT:HD I can assure you that small improvements to the physics engine have occurred.

Attempts at do-nuts in a stock car in GT4 would simply result in a car driving around it small circles and pushing wide as the fronts lost grip first. With GT:HD its actually possible to do a do-nut in which the car actually rotates around a single front tyre (as it should). The same is true of handbrake turns, which were laughably impossible in GT4, again GT:HD will let you get most of the way to a 180.

Its certainly not 100% right, but a lot, lot closer to reality that GT4 was in these two areas.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

Well that's good news, I have limited first hand experience of GT:HD and by limited I mean limited Not enough to check the differences, regardless of GT:HD's improvments though, PD are supposed to be basing the next GT game on a new hpysics engine which let's hope will be better still.

 

[Biggles]

Just had another look at the Nurburgring in Forza 2: looks beautiful - rich, gorgeous colours, great detail etc. etc. BUT it doesn't look anything like the real thing - it's flat & wide - looks like a fantasy, artificial version of the real thing. It may look nice, but there's no way it's more realistic than GT4's processor challenged version. Run a car along GT4's Ring & it's uncannily close to a video of the actual circuit.

On the other hand, race a bunch of car's in GT4 Ring & you get that absurd banging & bumping, not to mention the "invisible walls"...

 

[Dave A]

Imo from playing it, it doesn't feel any wider than GT4's in most places, the corners just arn't as sharp and in some places there seems to be more runoff than there was in GT4's version. It isn't the best version of the Ring out there, and in no way does it compete with GT4 or EPRS versions, but the width issue is one that I don't think is as valid as some people claim, maybe I'm wrong because I haven't played GT4 for ages.

 

[harrytuttle]

I don't think you understand Scaffs point there, he was pointing out why Damage of that level isn't feasible in a racing game not just now, but in the near future. Not that he'll accept that level of simulation and nothing less.

Uh, no, I did understand it, and if you read my posts you'd see that.

For the last time I do not want, nor am I calling for a 100% accurate damage model in any driving/racing sim; for the very reasons that I originally pointed out (that consoles are not going to be capable of it for a very long time) and that manufacturers would not agree even if the console was capable. All I'm asking for is something better that what we currently have been offered.

Which is what I've been saying, too. You didn't assume that "today" and "tomorrow" were literal, did you?

 

[Kent]

After spending time watching onboard videos of FM2's Ring I'd have to say there are some wide spots, there are some poor turns, the texture of the track is far too smooth, and the actual bumps of the track don't seem accurate either.

Actually, the more time I spent watching onboard laps and videos of FM2's Ring, the more I started to feel FM2's Ring was little more than a revised version of FM1's Ring with better graphics and a different seasonal setting.

That said, I do feel that made some improvements... Just not enough to warrant any real praise.
(I mean, it's a next gen game! They should have atleast matched GT4's Ring!)

Of course, it doesn't really matter though does it?

 

[Diab]

It is also for Turn 10 to come to the game this late, look around and see what they need to jump on. If Forza 1 had been equal to GT1 it woudl have been laughable at best. No they created their first version after four generations of GT, of course they appear to be giving gamers their desire in a quicker time, they started later with better technology at their fingertips. That does not make Turn 10 better than PD.Using someone else's hindsight in your first couple of attempts does not make you better, it just makes you observant.

Now this I disagree with, you say that because GT has had 4 iterations that basically had nothing added to them despite what the community wanted somehow gives PD a get out of jail free card? As well as basically saying Turn 10 looked at GT1-4 and basically copied it and added their own take on it. So wrong my friend, think about it, GT never had any of the stuff Forza 1 gave us but we have been crying out for it to PD for god knows how long so imo Turn 10 looked at GT and then went and bettered it by actually looking at and implementing what the community wanted.

I guess you didn't see this huh? Sorry it is a blog that links to an actual story but I can't get access to the actual story from work. It also mentions damage, as well as other things, if you follow the car damage link near the bottom. Looks to me like Kaz is talking.
http://www.ps3fanboy.com/2007/06/21/...ran-turismo-5/

I have seen that and I am intrigued to say the least but why only race cars? Some of the best races in Forza 2 are with everyone in a stock roadcar and bumps and scrapes are inevitable due to dodgy brakes, it's sad to see that GT is still holding back the series in this regard.

How do you want the formula to change? So far all I hear is a desire for car damage and the big 3 exotics. Those just sound like asdditions to the current formula. You sound like you want a completely different game when you talk about changing the formula. What would you like them to change or would the above additions be enough?

Now this where you have me wrong, I want Gran Turismo to be like it should be by now and it's obvious from what the community have been saying that they want it to. That minority that always defend GT's no damage approach listen now, Cosmetic or No Damage as an option solves your problem right away and leaves the rest of us to play a racing game with the perils of actually wrecking our cars and losing the race. Also why shouldn't the core things about racing be in this game, you make it sound like having clever opponents, realistic sounds, customisation, exotics among other features as a bad thing and something that should not be in GT because it would mean changing GT into what? Something better, something it should always have been? I don't get your reasoning here.

I must be looking at a different game, or it looks much, much better on a non-HDTV. There is definitely a graphical and physical difference, although it is far from what I woudl expect GT5 to present.

Cars and lighting looks great, textures, backgrounds (it's an image, nothing more nothing less) and the crowd look dated.

AI and damage effects on driving are the only gameplay things and the rest is cosmetic. None of this is core changes. Do you want a career mode? More arcadish, the way Forza felt to me? What core change do you think should happen? One of the things I have enjoyed about teh GT series is how the game is laid out and is somewhat open-ended in how you can play it. I can go through and list tweaks that I think woudl make me enjoy it more, but I can't imagine what kind of change to the core of the game would help.

Huh? You ever been to race and not been excited or smiled when those cars flyby you at great speed or when you watch it on TV and hear the sound from incar, it doesn't sound like a vacuum cleaner or a weed trimmer that's for sure. Sound is more core to a car with games than anything else, if the sound isn't right it will never feel right. Graphics, Physics and Sound are what would be the main core objects for me personally and many others, imagine GTR/2 with GT4 engine sounds, horrible isn't it.

When was the last time you earned 150-200 A-spec points and didn't feel challenged (and using the Dodge Ram or knocking the opponents off the course don't count as being earned)?

Well I used to drive the Nordschleife and Circuit le Sarthe when I still had my PS2 and DFP and wouldn't normally go a slow against a faster breed but would usually give them a huge headstart and chase after them. Catching a bunch of AI with a 90sec headstart with a Honda Civic Type-R in the 4th lap of 5 doesn't exactly make me think wow that was tough. And the main reason I don't feel challenged is due to how dumb the AI is, going deep into a corner with an AI racer next to you holding his line and taking the inside for the next turn is a challenge, getting bumped off some trains tracks is not.

The truth of the matter is PD and GT hasn't really changed in it's time it's been with us and it hasn't had to as it's been lazy and just watched the money come in, but now at least with Forza/2 anyway, there needs to be changes and additions that have been put off for way too long and for what the fans have been screaming for, will we get them? I don't know, will we be happy with them? Again, I don't know, I do know this though, if I am ever to get back into Gran Turismo again, Sony, PD and KY need to stop being so arrogant and look and listen to what it's community wants otherwise Forza will just keep pulling away into the distance.

And now for something completely different...

To add to the topic about Forza 2's Nordschleife, you are correct it is not 100% accurate but it is about 95% I would say. First thing you notice is the turn leading upto the pits heading onto the old start/finish straight, it's slightly longer and doesn't have the tarmac on the left which most racers will use to set themselves up for the next turn. It is not as bumpy, it's better than enthusia though. There are some turns after the Karussel which I think are slightly wider than real life but again Turn 10 have said that the Nurburgring was made for online but tbh if you like racing this track you know how to race it and usually have a grounding in good racing etiquette as you know a messup on this track is not good not to mention the pits are very very close to the start.

I could get a good video of this from my CLK-GTR running a 7:09.330 (top 20 currently) if you want? If someone could get a GT4 run with the same car for comparison though I know GT4 is much much faster due to the dodgy handling with race cars.

Also please remember I'm not some fanboy, I just look beyond brand loyalty and look for what offers me the best experience and right now Forza 2 is doing that and I hope that GT5 is a brilliant game also, the more competition the better for us.