Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Biggles]

Well I used to drive the Nordschleife and Circuit le Sarthe when I still had my PS2 and DFP and wouldn't normally go a slow against a faster breed but would usually give them a huge headstart and chase after them. Catching a bunch of AI with a 90sec headstart with a Honda Civic Type-R in the 4th lap of 5 doesn't exactly make me think wow that was tough. And the main reason I don't feel challenged is due to how dumb the AI is, going deep into a corner with an AI racer next to you holding his line and taking the inside for the next turn is a challenge, getting bumped off some trains tracks is not.

I would say that the challenge in GT4 is more about controlling & perfecting your own driving than racing other cars because the AI & "collision" model is so crappy. To me Forza 1 & 2 offer less realistic driving (especially on the Ring) but a more exciting racing challenge.

Imo from playing it, it doesn't feel any wider than GT4's in most places, the corners just arn't as sharp and in some places there seems to be more runoff than there was in GT4's version. It isn't the best version of the Ring out there, and in no way does it compete with GT4 or EPRS versions, but the width issue is one that I don't think is as valid as some people claim, maybe I'm wrong because I haven't played GT4 for ages.

I came to GT4 after 2 years of playing Forza, including many, many laps of the Ring. I immediately felt at home on GT4's Ring - it just felt right & seemed to match MUCH more closely all the real-life videos I had seen (the visuals, the road layout, the braking points & gear shifts etc.).

backgrounds (it's an image, nothing more nothing less)

This seems to me to be the sensible way to render backgrounds. I'm guessing it is one of the reasons PD managed to create so much graphically in GT4 with so little.

 

[Tenacious D]

After spending some quality time with Forza 2 - before my brand new 360 Elite bought it - I'm impressed. I really love Forza 2.

However, it as usual has issues. It's almost as if MS goes out of it's way to get things wrong or buggy. All I have to say is Windows.

The tire sounds are just... what the hell were they thinking?? First of all, they recorded all of them from a Buick. It does get a bit obnoxious when every Miata and Elise in a skid sounds like a truck roaring. Also, the tire sounds, as with Forza 1, don't follow the parameters of turn/skid dynamics properly. In fact they're worse. Using the sounds to judge how happy your car is with it's footing is an experimental proposition. I've sometimes completely lost control with no tire complaints whatsoever. I have the tire sounds cranked and the difference between a VERY soft chuffing sound and the abrupt roar of a Dodge Ram loosing control is ridiculous. Tires do NOT behave like that. Meh.

The yawing dynamics of the cars are way off. They're all about two seconds plus, even with small cars like a Miata. There is also no snap back to grip. And once again, jerking the wheel can recover you from a skid. Meh.

Much too often, the game will cling to centripetal force, inertial spring or what have you, and out of the blue your FFB wheel will begin pulling off in one direction for several seconds. WTH??

Turn 10 exaggerates the tendency of over/understeer, as well as car behavior during a turn. I know braking before a turn and gassing through it is the way to go, but they went overboard. Too many times I'm giving a car a hint of gas pedal, and it starts to loose it. I think they got carried away with exaggerating the differences in the cars as well. Meh.

Once again, damage is mostly cosmetic even on full Sim level. Sometimes, the paint scarring looks more like graffiti too. Weird.

Braking with ABS off is very badly implemented. Just pressing the pedal slightly is enough to lock your brakes. Meh.

And there's more but you get the point. It's a beautiful game, and I love it, but it has as many issues with reality as a certain other game played on an obsolete console.

 

[Kent]

After spending some quality time with Forza 2 - before my brand new 360 Elite bought it - I'm impressed. I really love Forza 2.

However, it as usual has issues. It's almost as if MS goes out of it's way to get things wrong or buggy. All I have to say is Windows.

The tire sounds are just... what the hell were they thinking?? First of all, they recorded all of them from a Buick. It does get a bit obnoxious when every Miata and Elise in a skid sounds like a truck roaring. Also, the tire sounds, as with Forza 1, don't follow the parameters of turn/skid dynamics properly. In fact they're worse. Using the sounds to judge how happy your car is with it's footing is an experimental proposition. I've sometimes completely lost control with no tire complaints whatsoever. I have the tire sounds cranked and the difference between a VERY soft chuffing sound and the abrupt roar of a Dodge Ram loosing control is ridiculous. Tires do NOT behave like that. Meh.

The yawing dynamics of the cars are way off. They're all about two seconds plus, even with small cars like a Miata. There is also no snap back to grip. And once again, jerking the wheel can recover you from a skid. Meh.

Much too often, the game will cling to centripetal force, inertial spring or what have you, and out of the blue your FFB wheel will begin pulling off in one direction for several seconds. WTH??

Turn 10 exaggerates the tendency of over/understeer, as well as car behavior during a turn. I know braking before a turn and gassing through it is the way to go, but they went overboard. Too many times I'm giving a car a hint of gas pedal, and it starts to loose it. I think they got carried away with exaggerating the differences in the cars as well. Meh.

Once again, damage is mostly cosmetic even on full Sim level. Sometimes, the paint scarring looks more like graffiti too. Weird.

Braking with ABS off is very badly implemented. Just pressing the pedal slightly is enough to lock your brakes. Meh.

And there's more but you get the point. It's a beautiful game, and I love it, but it has as many issues with reality as a certain other game played on an obsolete console.

It's odd to read this...
I'm suprised because so many people with 360s have already expressed many opinions about FM2 and none of them read like yours (tenacious d).
None the less, I'm happy to read this opinion because it gives me "the other view" of how FM2 plays.
Because of the opinions you've expressed I'm very interested to hear you answer this question...
"Do the cars still feel like they float on the course as they did in FM1?"

Thanks for you time and opinions,
-

 

[Tenacious D]

"Do the cars still feel like they float on the course as they did in FM1?"

Thanks for you time and opinions,
-

I really have to wonder about the fans of this game. All of the things I described were apparent to me early on, way back in the demo. Now I must say that none of the things I mentioned equal "terrible physics" or "awful driving experience." But the issues are much more glaring to me than the ones in GT4, so I'm thinking there's quite a bit of bias involved in judging one game. I don't drift, so doing donuts was never a huge reason to complain to me.

And I should hasten to edit in, I don't think Forza 2 is great in spite of some sucky physics, like some here insist is true about Gran Turismo 4. The physics in Forza 2 are clearly more advanced, they're just different. I've learned that game companies have personalities and traits, and their games reflect this. Since no game will capture reality realistically, as Scaff and others have pointed out, there will be warts. But I do think that Forza's warts are just odd, and people ignoring them are equally so.

The float factor though, that's a hard one to answer. For one thing, I just can't play a racing game with a controller anymore, at least not too well. I have to have a wheel and pedals. GT4 to me is exquisitely immersive for four reasons.

• Wonderful camera positioning, primarily roof cam
• Tire sounds which mimic real life tire dynamics
• Superb force feedback implementation
• Tangible, realistic car behavior - I know, some opinions differ

In addition, Forza 2 once AGAIN has bad environmental audio. An opponent can be 30 car lengths away and sound like he's 6 or 7. And I don't like Turn 10's camera implementation. It was much better in the early pre-demo builds (!), but after 10 months in Forza 1, I'm used to it.

So in my always humble opinion, using a FFB wheel, you do feel a connection to the car which is fairly close to GT4. I think it's less floaty than Toca 3, but to really judge for yourself, you'd have to try it, both with a controller and a MS FFB Wheel. I paid well over $700 just to play Forza 2, and with my 360 crapping out after just a few weeks, I'd say, it's worth it to me. But be DAMNED sure you get a LOCAL extended warranty at Best Buy or GameStop/EB! It's just too much of a gamble, and I believe the 30% failure rate now.

I have to add that Forza 2 has a terrific ace in the hole. Along with a refreshing if different physics engine, race modding and painting cars is just the coolest thing since the invention of pizza. Along with Photo Mode, you'll be hooked into recreating some great real life liveries, as well as creating your own. Or getting them from friends or the auction house. GT4's Photo Mode is just a taste of the fun offered in Forza 2.

 

[Kent]

You know the X360 fans are going to have a field day with what you've said.

As for the failure rate on the 360... Not very suprised here either (too many people have had that problem for me to ignore it)...

As for the bias about judging the game... I think you are right (sorry FMboys).
Fact is though, the commentary on FM1 was just like what everyone has said about FM2 and when I finally believed the hype and bought an Xbox, I ended up being very unhappy with Forza (1).

Now here we are in the same situation only it's FM2. Suprisingly though, I have seen the judgements you've posted and the complaints seem like they are similar to my complaints with the original...
Sound for example:
While I believe the sounds are good in both FM1 and Fm2, I look back at Fm1 and see what Ten-D has said about Fm2... It's not that the sounds are bad, it's just that they are poorly used.
The distance between cars yet being able to hear the car as if it is right behind you (mean while, you're own car is only just as loud to your ear as the car 10 car lengths back!).

Basically, I'm just happy to hear from people who will step out of rank and give open, honest opinions.

Of course, in the end, I'm still going to find a way to play FM2 and judge the game for myself.

 

[Tenacious D]

You know the X360 fans are going to have a field day with what you've said.

Bring it on!

To ping off of Kent's post and tie in with the original threat point, it's clear that however MS's presence in the game world works itself out, Turn 10 and Forza is here to stay. It's a really nice change of pace, and "that other flavor" of racing, GT style. And it's impossible to ignore how Turn 10 borrowed from the GT format to create "the American Gran Turismo." That's not a bad thing.

You really have to try Forza 2. It's just too quality a product to ignore, and with Gran Turismo games coming along every four years or so now, you may need a Forza game to feed your racing/driving/drifting/modding fix.

OH! One thing about opponent car volume. Turn 10 actually gave us a level control for that, so you can adjust it so their engines don't overwhelm yours, which if you don't, they will. Unfortunately it won't have any effect on the volume vs distance issue, but what the heck.

 

[dunkee]

The float factor though, that's a hard one to answer. For one thing, I just can't play a racing game with a controller anymore, at least not too well. I have to have a wheel and pedals. GT4 to me is exquisitely immersive for four reasons.

• Wonderful camera positioning, primarily roof cam
• Tire sounds which mimic real life tire dynamics
• Superb force feedback implementation
• Tangible, realistic car behavior - I know, some opinions differ

In addition, Forza 2 once AGAIN has bad environmental audio. An opponent can be 30 car lengths away and sound like he's 6 or 7. And I don't like Turn 10's camera implementation. It was much better in the early pre-demo builds (!), but after 10 months in Forza 1, I'm used to it.

FM fan here

Tenacious (like others^) just likes GT4. It seems like it's hard for him to get used to anything else. It definitely didn't turn me on like it does to some here but I understand what it is ppl like. I'm not gonna get into an in-depth reply just respond to somethings.

For one GT4's roof cam was horrid to have to look at..no one races on the roof of a car in real life. It might give a better view of the track but if you can't see the turns try racing out of the car. That should be easier for you..not a problem for most. You are one of the few I hear complaining about that.

Tire squealing in GT4 sounds like howling wind..another horrid point. FM2 IMHO is much better..audio just owns. Also opponent audio can be adjusted very easily..you must have missed that setting.

Car behavior can be a tad exaggerated in FM2 but at least the cars have personality. Most of GT cars feel exactly the same.

FM2 gives a much better challenge, and much more to do..just a better game over all. The only thing GT does is incorporate the wheel better, but the physics suck. It has all this stuff for a hardcore sim..but its not hardcore. So what's the point? Those that think Gt4's physics are unparallel just don't drive a real car hard enough to enjoy real car behavior. The "floaty" feel you talk of is just suspension animation..adds to the look of the game not the physics.

 

[shawtyoner]

I know the Nordschleife debate will always be a controversial one between GT4 and FM2, my preferred would definitely be GT4's, however, i honestly feel that FM2's ring is not that bad, for one the graphics are great, but thats besides the point, the main factor that concerns everyone besides the turns is how bumpy the track is.

After investigating a bit the past day or two, i have noticed that FM2's Nurb is actually quite bumpy, the problem however, is that Turn 10 did not do a good job at translating those bumps visually or through feel via the rumble in the wheel. When you are flying down the ring, it does seem remarkably smooth, but if you pull up the telemetry to view the suspension and do around 100 MPH, you can see just how much those springs are bouncing up and down. The only time you actually feel the bumps are when you go over the big noticeable ones. I have lost control plenty of times due to an undulation that i couldn't feel, but it was there.

I wish i could upload a video of it but i do not have a camcorder anymore. So to me, in my opinion, the bumps aren't that much of a concern to me, because they are there, to bad you just don't feel them they way you should in game.

 

[Scaff]

Which is what I've been saying, too. You didn't assume that "today" and "tomorrow" were literal, did you?

Absolutely nothing in any of my posts goes anyway towards suggesting I took "today" and "tomorrow" literally, and I would have to ask why if you agree with what I have consistently posted why you implied that real damage would be able to be implemented within a 'reasonably' short period of time (after all that how I took you comment regarding Pole Position and how far we had come in a such a short period of time) and claimed that I had wanted real damage or nothing.

Its not a circular argument at all, you clearly disagreed with what I posted and I clarified my position, I can't really help it if we end up talking about the same thing.


Scaff

 

[redline]

?

 

[redline]

I could get a good video of this from my CLK-GTR running a 7:09.330 (top 20 currently) if you want? If someone could get a GT4 run with the same car for comparison though I know GT4 is much much faster due to the dodgy handling with race cars.

./QUOTE]

You sure about that? I mean, do you drive a race car in real life?

 

[Tenacious D]

For one GT4's roof cam was horrid to have to look at..no one races on the roof of a car in real life.

No one drives from their bumper, hood or behind the car in real life either. Since Forza has no in car view though, I wonder if you consider that horrid. I do race from behind in Forza. Or will when I get a 360 which actually works more than a few weeks.

Tire squealing in GT4 sounds like howling wind.

Actually, the tire sounds in GT4 are much more accurate in a generic way. Tire sounds in Forza 2 go from whispering wind to a roaring GMC 4x4 with nothing in between, whether you're driving a Buick or a Lotus Exige. Advantage? I think not.

Car behavior can be a tad exaggerated in FM2 but at least the cars have personality. Most of GT cars feel exactly the same.

Okay, I'm calling bullshift on this one. But for another thing, you need to reread a post I made about designing cars in video games. To paraphrase, game designers are stuck in an awkward situation. The reason cars feel different is because you have a physical body in a physical seat attached to a physical car. Take away all that, and you're having an out-of-car experience. No feedback to speak of. And if you watch videos of cars in anywhere near the same performance range going around a track, they will LOOK exactly the same. Take any real life race and watch the from car footage. Can you tell a difference? No. Does it feel different to be in them? Somewhat. But take that to a video game environment. If you exaggerate the differences so the cars have "personality," then you have fans decrying how the cars are all wrong. If you don't understand something so basic and yet essential, the discussion is over right now.

FM2 gives a much better challenge, and much more to do.

I pretty much agree.

The only thing GT does is incorporate the wheel better, but the physics suck.

Whatever.

Now I did say that Forza 2 does have more advanced physics, but only in certain aspects. Heck, the cars still refuse to lean around turns, so I'm definitely going to chuckle at how a game built two years ago on a far inferior system still does some things better, and how fanboys will be fanboys.

By the way, you might note that I had mentioned opponent car audio level settings. Don't read posts too fast.

 

[Diab]

Uhh redline, sub 6mins is not possible plus I remember grip was never a problem in GT4. A 600bhp racecar with no TCS will break out very easily, but from what I remember it wasn't really an issue in GT4. Try GTR/2 if you want to see what driving a racecar is like, but you don't need to be a race driver to know that Forza 2 has much better representation of how they react.

@dunkee: I agree with you, a lot of the belittling about Forza is just a way to keep GT as the better of the 2 in these people's minds which is no bad thing, but it's the blind ignorance and narrow mindedness which gets me as I know myself personally, will always choose which of the 2 does the genre and gives a more accurate representation of the subject.

Does Forza have flaws? Of course it does but not as much as GT as it currently stands, I hope to hell GT5 will change that but I'm not getting any high-hopes except for maybe great visuals, though we are at a point now where most games will look great anyway, it's the gameplay that will make one better than the other.

 

[dunkee]

No one drives from their bumper, hood or behind the car in real life either. Since Forza has no in car view though, I wonder if you consider that horrid. I do race from behind in Forza. Or will when I get a 360 which actually works more than a few weeks.

I race on the hood...all cabin views I played so far sucked. I figured you raced from behind. My assumption is that you are just having a hard time playing Forza bc it's not as easy as GT4.

Actually, the tire sounds in GT4 are much more accurate in a generic way. Tire sounds in Forza 2 go from whispering wind to a roaring GMC 4x4 with nothing in between, whether you're driving a Buick or a Lotus Exige. Advantage? I think not.

Lets see how many ppl you get to agree w/ you on that one 👍 Dude you are so up GT's ass it ain't even funny.

Okay, I'm calling bullshift on this one. But for another thing, you need to reread a post I made about designing cars in video games. To paraphrase, game designers are stuck in an awkward situation. The reason cars feel different is because you have a physical body in a physical seat attached to a physical car. Take away all that, and you're having an out-of-car experience. No feedback to speak of. And if you watch videos of cars in anywhere near the same performance range going around a track, they will LOOK exactly the same. Take any real life race and watch the from car footage. Can you tell a difference? No. Does it feel different to be in them? Somewhat. But take that to a video game environment. If you exaggerate the differences so the cars have "personality," then you have fans decrying how the cars are all wrong. If you don't understand something so basic and yet essential, the discussion is over right now.

This all blah blah to me. I never driven a race car. I've driven my 240 w/ SR. That is where I opinionate from you're just paraphrasing something you read.

Now I did say that Forza 2 does have more advanced physics, but only in certain aspects. Heck, the cars still refuse to lean around turns, so I'm definitely going to chuckle at how a game built two years ago on a far inferior system still does some things better, and how fanboys will be fanboys. By the way, you might note that I had mentioned opponent car audio level settings. Don't read posts too fast.

You feel the weight transfer though..so obviously they are leaning in the turn. Again you mean the animation right? You only see that when racing from the back or replays. From the hood, you don't see all that. It's whatever man..I see what your about. Your a fanboy as am I..it's all fun and games so we can chuckle together

 

[GTXLR]

• Wonderful camera positioning, primarily roof cam
• Tire sounds which mimic real life tire dynamics
• Superb force feedback implementation
• Tangible, realistic car behavior - I know, some opinions differ

In addition, Forza 2 once AGAIN has bad environmental audio. An opponent can be 30 car lengths away and sound like he's 6 or 7. And I don't like Turn 10's camera implementation. It was much better in the early pre-demo builds (!), but after 10 months in Forza 1, I'm used to it.

So in my always humble opinion, using a FFB wheel, you do feel a connection to the car which is fairly close to GT4. I think it's less floaty than Toca 3, but to really judge for yourself, you'd have to try it, both with a controller and a MS FFB Wheel. I paid well over $700 just to play Forza 2, and with my 360 crapping out after just a few weeks, I'd say, it's worth it to me. But be DAMNED sure you get a LOCAL extended warranty at Best Buy or GameStop/EB! It's just too much of a gamble, and I believe the 30% failure rate now.

I have to add that Forza 2 has a terrific ace in the hole. Along with a refreshing if different physics engine, race modding and painting cars is just the coolest thing since the invention of pizza. Along with Photo Mode, you'll be hooked into recreating some great real life liveries, as well as creating your own. Or getting them from friends or the auction house. GT4's Photo Mode is just a taste of the fun offered in Forza 2.

I paid just over £3000 to play forza 2 (it was worth it to me, ive snce incorporated a triple screen abled PC, and my PS2 and PS3, along with a £500sports race seat), if you want to talk about camera positions, you just have to experience the hood view of a three screen setup, nothing else comes close
Not a fair comparison i know, but roof cams suck!

FM2 tyres sounds work, you have different sounds for lock up, spinning and slip, which are all very authentic, and if you listen to them along with the feedback through the wheel, you can drive to the limits, compare that to the droning tyre noise, thats been squeeling at me with GT since GT1! one sound does not fit all PD!

The force feedback is an issue only because microsoft were being foolish!!! about releasing the api for developers to use anything other than the microsoft wheel, IMO turn 10 did a very good job with the poor equipment they had to work with, they delivered all the sensations required, and all the feedback traits are there, you just have to feel for them a bit more with this cheap wheel. Its not a patch on my G25, but the good news is, as announced by turn10 since the release of Forza 2, microsoft have released the necessary API's to developers to implement other wheels, and although logitech's DFP or G25 are not confirmed yet, turn 10 indicate that an update to make use of these APIs will be available in the future, heres hoping i can trash my wireless wheel and setup my G25 permanently for use on my Xbox360, PS3 and PC, its such a pain strippingit in and out of my cockpit!!

The handling of Forza2 is a bit hit and miss at first, it appears to most that Oversteer is far to easy to induce esecially in stock cars, generally i find this is because most people are over driving, and are not smooth, the work the physics engine is doing isnt quite represented enough through the feed back, in that you dont feel the bumps on the track, but view the telemetry, and wonder no more why you got out of shape over that bump or dip.
However once you smooth out your driving style, no more mashing the gas or brake at any given moment, then you begin to get a good feel for the handling, it is only at this point when you will really appreciate the different nuances of each car.
With that mastered, you should then move on to getting some good tuned set ups, this is where you will really feel the feedback working, you will really begin to feel more grip as you dial the car in, you can modify the weight transfer rates and grip levels, dont make the error of over modding and overpowering your ride.
All of this takes a lot of time, practice and patience to perfect, FM2 is a sim, and as such requires the driver to make significant time inputs and adjustments to your driving style, this is a commitment that many players arent prepared to make, and have the,' i want it all, now!' mentality, sims dont lend themselves well to those who dont have the self discipline to criticise and correct themselves, as they log lap after lap after lap on free run, just to get a good line.
If you put in the time, and learn and feel your way into Forza2 it is a rewarding Sim, easily comparable to anything GT has delivered to date. And is real enough and tangible enough that you can figure out whats going on!
Add to that that FM2 offers so much more that us GT devotees have waited and waited for, for so long, it would be a shame to miss out on turn 10s offering!

language edited!

 

[Biggles]

I think Tenacious D is EXACTLY right.

Dunkee said:

FM fan here

Tenacious (like others^) just likes GT4. It seems like it's hard for him to get used to anything else.

Unlike many people who came to Forza after years playing the GT series, I played Forza solidly for 2 years, & only recently started playing GT4. I have to say that overall driving in GT4 feels more natural & less digital than it does in Forza. Forza 2 seems like a (admittedly improved) HD version of Forza 1.

 

[Kent]

Try to watch you language please!
That's to everyone and anyone considering the use of vulgar or abusive language.
Thanks for recognizing the importance of this warning.

 

[GTXLR]

I think Tenacious D is EXACTLY right.

Dunkee said:

Unlike many people who came to Forza after years playing the GT series, I played Forza solidly for 2 years, & only recently started playing GT4. I have to say that overall driving in GT4 feels more natural & less digital than it does in Forza. Forza 2 seems like a (admittedly improved) HD version of Forza 1.

Im a driving sim nut!
Forza1 Was garbage, i played it for about 4 hours total, it was so wrong in so many many ways!

No wonder GT4 impressed you so much!!

however the difference between Forza 1 and Forza 2 is like the difference between night and day!

 

[shawtyoner]

I paid just over £3000 to play forza 2 (it was worth it to me, ive snce incorporated a triple screen abled PC, and my PS2 and PS3, along with a £500sports race seat), if you want to talk about camera positions, you just have to experience the hood view of a three screen setup, nothing else comes close
Not a fair comparison i know, but roof cams suck!

FM2 tyres sounds work, you have different sounds for lock up, spinning and slip, which are all very authentic, and if you listen to them along with the feedback through the wheel, you can drive to the limits, compare that to the droning tyre noise, thats been squeeling at me with GT since GT1! one sound does not fit all PD!

The force feedback is an issue only because microsoft were being a holes about releasing the api for developers to use anything other than the microsoft wheel, IMO turn 10 did a very good job with the poor equipment they had to work with, they delivered all the sensations required, and all the feedback traits are there, you just have to feel for them a bit more with this cheap wheel. Its not a patch on my G25, but the good news is, as announced by turn10 since the release of Forza 2, microsoft have released the necessary API's to developers to implement other wheels, and although logitech's DFP or G25 are not confirmed yet, turn 10 indicate that an update to make use of these APIs will be available in the future, heres hoping i can trash my wireless wheel and setup my G25 permanently for use on my Xbox360, PS3 and PC, its such a pain strippingit in and out of my cockpit!!

The handling of Forza2 is a bit hit and miss at first, it appears to most that Oversteer is far to easy to induce esecially in stock cars, generally i find this is because most people are over driving, and are not smooth, the work the physics engine is doing isnt quite represented enough through the feed back, in that you dont feel the bumps on the track, but view the telemetry, and wonder no more why you got out of shape over that bump or dip.
However once you smooth out your driving style, no more mashing the gas or brake at any given moment, then you begin to get a good feel for the handling, it is only at this point when you will really appreciate the different nuances of each car.
With that mastered, you should then move on to getting some good tuned set ups, this is where you will really feel the feedback working, you will really begin to feel more grip as you dial the car in, you can modify the weight transfer rates and grip levels, dont make the error of over modding and overpowering your ride.
All of this takes a lot of time, practice and patience to perfect, FM2 is a sim, and as such requires the driver to make significant time inputs and adjustments to your driving style, this is a commitment that many players arent prepared to make, and have the,' i want it all, now!' mentality, sims dont lend themselves well to those who dont have the self discipline to criticise and correct themselves, as they log lap after lap after lap on free run, just to get a good line.
If you put in the time, and learn and feel your way into Forza2 it is a rewarding Sim, easily comparable to anything GT has delivered to date. And is real enough and tangible enough that you can figure out whats going on!
Add to that that FM2 offers so much more that us GT devotees have waited and waited for, for so long, it would be a shame to miss out on turn 10s offering!

I agree alot with this guy right here, thats exactly how it feels, an easy example for me to use in this case is to compare the way I drive to a friend of mine who comes over to play every once in a while, he is constantly oversteering and gets completely pissed about it and cannot figure out why, yet when i jump on the wheel to finish a race for him, i can see where he's coming from yet i have the ability to control the car better because i can tell where the limits are more so then he can. When FM1 came out, i played it for a while, yet i went back to GT4 because it seemed way better to me, FM2 has taken my attention away from GT4 at the moment and i don't know when i will go back, maybe next year, thats how enjoyable FM2 has been, and alot of people on this thread have felt the same thing, FM2 is a good game, not a perfect game, then again no game will ever be perfect!

 

[Diab]

Great post GTX though unfortunately it will probably fall on deaf fanboy ears, anyway where is this confirmation that Turn 10 have said MS has released the FFB Api? A decent FFB wheel might be coming to the 360, that if true, is GREAT news !!

 

[GTXLR]

Great post GTX though unfortunately it will probably fall on deaf fanboy ears, anyway where is this confirmation that Turn 10 have said MS has released the FFB Api? A decent FFB wheel might be coming to the 360, that if true, is GREAT news !!

Chespace of turn 10 reported this here!
http://forzamotorsport.net/news/tuningguides/triplescreen.htm

Under the heading recommended near the top of the article.

 

[NinjaN]

Hello people, heres my thoughts on Forza and GT (3 and 4 to be specific)

Overall I think GT still has the edge as the driving physics is still the closest thing to actually driving a real car (without going crazy like the F355 game or max settings on some of the F1 games...). I have both xbox and ps2 consoles for quite some time now and having played GT3 and 4 exculsively (I only bought PS2 for GT3 and 4 until forza came out on xbox I must say that Forza just feels a bit less 'simulation' than GT and bit more 'arcady'... and thats GTs core, great feel when driving and for the time being still better than all the other racing games, Forza2 may close this gap and I hope it does as it should only make PD work harder to make GT series better...
What I really liked about Forza was the selection of cars, although a lot less than GT4, was quality...
GT still insists on giving us 20000 silvias skylines and civics which would be ok but dont count them as official different model in the total car line up and advertise as such... (having said that though where the hell is the R33 GTST???) theres really zero satisfaction in trying to drive 5 S2000s with different 'type' names...
For some reason which is beyond me, GT4 decided to disallow replay saves on split screen battles, friends and I have great races and we like to save them and re-watch again (which GT3 allowed)
Another baffling idea was to reduce the views when in replay mode???
GT very poorly implemented the handbrake!
GT has too much leniency for hitting barriers and going off the track, some corners you can slide along railings and take it faster than a good racing line on the track, and that pi$$es me off seein that crap!
GT ghost car does not disappear or become very faded when youre right on its tail or going through its position, very very annoying... PGR series had excellently implementation of ghost car! very simple coding fix by programmers.
Paint shop in GT Auto wouldve been great for custom colours, if only available for seconhand cars (if manufacturers wanted to keep their 'new; cars only in stock colours...)
Ok theres my little gripes about GT, but all these are very easily prgrammed functions/additions and I believe its a bit of laziness on PDs behalf.

Forza with its online play and visual car mods as well as mech/engine mods can only improve and will gradually generate more fans, but I still think the underlying physics still needs improving and only then will it truly compete with GT, as this is what these games are all about, being able to drive a huge range of cars as close as possible to what itd be to drive the real car...
and GT is still king for this one reason only! Full credit to Forza for not hyping it up to be a GT killer, and as others have mentioned, just wanting to provide another alternative to the GT series, shows they recognise that GT is overall and excellent series and wanting emulate that for the players of their game...

One thing about damage in race games, I hope GT5 has actual physics damage! I couldnt care less about graphical damage... but when you go head first into lane divider at 200km/h your game should be over!... you slide hard into a railing/barrier, your wheel aligntment and steering should be stuffed and minor front end collisions should have acceleration issues etc... just some sort of mech penalty for racing poorly... of course you dont want to go super sim and detract from fun but something... NFS2000/unleashed back in the day had a great damage system (and visually too!) that didnt detract from the fun and enhanced the challenge of driving clean! eg you felt great when you lost a bit of traction at highspeed but managed to keep it on track and avoid barriers cos you knew steering and accelration was gonna be hit if you didnt reign back control!

Im eagerly awaiting for both xbox360 and ps3 to decrease in price and GT5 to finally finish (god i wish GT was multiplatform for a thorough play or both F2 and GT5.

 

[Wolfe]

...game designers are stuck in an awkward situation. The reason cars feel different is because you have a physical body in a physical seat attached to a physical car. Take away all that, and you're having an out-of-car experience. No feedback to speak of. And if you watch videos of cars in anywhere near the same performance range going around a track, they will LOOK exactly the same. Take any real life race and watch the from car footage. Can you tell a difference? No. Does it feel different to be in them? Somewhat. But take that to a video game environment. If you exaggerate the differences so the cars have "personality," then you have fans decrying how the cars are all wrong. If you don't understand something so basic and yet essential, the discussion is over right now.

I disagree. There's one glaring difference between watching footage from a camera inside of a real racecar, and driving a racecar in a videogame. With the former, you're a "passenger." With the latter you're the "driver."

You're right when you say that videogames remove the physical experience of being thrown around the interior of a car as it screams around corners. But to say that a racing sim doesn't give you any feedback is untrue -- the difference is that you have to rely on visual and, to an extent, aural feedback. You yourself have demonstrated an ability to perceive this feedback (one example is when you mentioned Forza 2's lack of bodyroll).

The nuances of the movement of a car's suspension as it goes over bumps, the lean, dive, and squat of cornering, braking, and accelerating, the ever-shifting perspective of the scenery around you as your car moves and rotates...all of these things provide crucial visual cues. Meanwhile, your tires screech ever louder as they approach and exceed their limit of traction, and minute changes in your engine's RPM can be a clue that you're beginning to get wheelspin or that you've entered lift-off oversteer.

When you combine all of these things with the input that you give the car, whether it's by controller or wheel, you get a feel for the car...

...for example, the old-school Mini Cooper will let you dart around rather quickly thanks to its light weight, but those small tires lose traction rather easily. Furthermore, thanks to the rather short wheelbase and front-biased weight distribution, the front-end is more likely to push wide than the rear, which will pop out for a bit of oversteer action if you force it, but will quickly return because it just doesn't have the momentum (no weight back there) nor any propelling force (FWD, naturally).

Meanwhile, the ZZT231 Toyota Celica, despite having the exact same drivetrain layout, feels completely different. Although it's not as light as the Mini, it's rather light for its size and age, and thanks to modern suspension design and larger (grippier) tires, it also likes to dart around rather quickly. Unlike the Mini, though, its longer wheelbase and better-balanced chassis and suspension mean it'll go pretty much wherever you want it to, only understeering if you're really ham-fisted and lead-footed. If you drive it like a RWD junkie it'll hold a considerable slide (for a FWD) without even touching the handbrake. Everything about the car is balanced and taut, even down to the relative lack of bodyroll...

...driving those cars, I can feel all of those things with nothing but a bumper cam in Enthusia (I don't even drive with the VGS or black border). Live for Speed's Mini-wannabe and similar larger FWD coupe are even better thanks to the immersion of the moving 3D interior view.

And that brings me back to the topic at hand, with a claim that you'll no doubt dislike -- Gran Turismo 4 fails at this feedback.

The poorly modelled suspension motion, the sometimes-hilariously-exaggerated brake dive, the flawed law of inertia and incorrect relationship between both ends of the car, the overly flat, controlled, and calm nature of the cars in general (apart from the excessive wheelspin that fails to have an effect on your car's direction of travel anyhow)......all of it combines into this uncommunicative mess, one that barely differentiates between cars of the same drivetrain layout (as was the case with the Mini and Celica).

But not all is lost in the PD camp, because Forza 1 was even worse (FLOATY!!!!) and Forza 2 isn't much better. In fact, as you, Tenacious D, already noted, the ability to feel any differences between cars in Forza 2 is severely hampered by the fact that bodyroll is almost negligible. However, the physics of understeer and oversteer are close enough (not great, but good) that you can still feel a difference in overall weight, even if you can't really tell where that weight is.

If GT5 can work on the franchise's physics issues and polish up the visual feedback, it'll blow FM2 out of the water. But that remains to be seen.

 

[Biggles]

Great post GTX though unfortunately it will probably fall on deaf fanboy ears,

A completely unwarrented comment: the discussion on this forum has not been fanboyish in character at all. Pretty much all the posts have pointed out the shortcomings of both GT & Forza.

the difference between Forza 1 and Forza 2 is like the difference between night and day!

If this were true it would make me re-evaluate Forza 2, but it totally contradicts what Tenacious has posted (& what I've heard from a lot of others).

Forza1 Was garbage, i played it for about 4 hours total, it was so wrong in so many many ways!

Totally untrue that Forza 1 "was garbage" & if you really only did play it "for about 4 hours total" I don't think you could have had a very informed view of the game. Which leads me back to questioning how you could fairly make a judgement about Forza 2 being so much superior to Forza 1...

Ninja's comments on the other hand seem fair & balanced.

 

[Tenacious D]

Wolfe, I think you're loosing things in translation. And by that, I mean playing a game with a hand controller. The "feel" you're speaking of is nothing more than subliminal association of visual thrill in connection with making an event happen in a game. In other words,

poly-object go fast+take turn+win=YAY! thrill

I've actually had a discussion while thinking of doing a post today while a friend and I were discussing GT4 vs Forza. I subjected him to Forza 2 for a while, and then to GT4 today. He had all kinds of trouble in Forza 2 with the FFB Wheel, while my 360 was actually functional. But GT4 was something of a revelation. His remarks were something like this:

"This is SO much more like steering a car... listen to that tire noise! I can tell right where the edge of traction is, just like in my Miata."

Evidently you got used to having virtually zero tire feedback in Enthusia, playing with your hand controller. Which is fine for you. But honestly, if the game was like that fake opening Miata "demo," which was nothing more than live footage at low resolution, I would have loved EPR. But it's not, so I don't.

 

[Wolfe]

Wolfe, I think you're loosing things in translation. And by that, I mean playing a game with a hand controller. The "feel" you're speaking of is nothing more than subliminal association of visual thrill in connection with making an event happen in a game. In other words,

poly-object go fast+take turn+win=YAY! thrill

I've actually had a discussion while thinking of doing a post today while a friend and I were discussing GT4 vs Forza. I subjected him to Forza 2 for a while, and then to GT4 today. He had all kinds of trouble in Forza 2 with the FFB Wheel, while my 360 was actually functional. But GT4 was something of a revelation. His remarks were something like this:

"This is SO much more like steering a car... listen to that tire noise! I can tell right where the edge of traction is, just like in my Miata."

A force feedback wheel, particularly a good one with a game that makes good use of it (and GT4 does have good force feedback), does add to the immersion and "feel," but it cannot make up for poor physics, and it isn't a complete replacement for good visual and aural feedback.

Playing Live for Speed with a gamepad would still be far more communicative than just about anything else, force-feedback wheel or not.

Oh, and leave it to a Miata owner to be befuddled by Forza 2's power-oversteer yet embrace GT4's understeery goodness.

Evidently you got used to having virtually zero tire feedback in Enthusia, playing with your hand controller. Which is fine for you.

I don't understand where you get the idea that Enthusia lacks tire noise -- it builds up as you reach the limit and then gets louder when you cross it. On top of that, the noise even changes depending on the weight load on the tire and what it's doing (if you're really certain that it does no such things I can provide a video for you).

Besides, that noise isn't everything. All it tells you is that at least one of your tires is approaching or beyond the limit of traction, and while that's useful information, it's not something that you can or want to rely 100% on.

...that fake opening Miata "demo"...was nothing more than live footage at low resolution...

I already knew of this theory of yours before. I'm just framing it so that others will take note of it.

 

[NinjaN]

Ive always enjoyed racing games in general from NFS 3 days to PGR... so I usually comment on based on what genre of racing the games is trying to focus on... I remember the days of NFS3 and highstakes, friend and I used to play that for hours without ever getting bored, we used to have spectacular crashes and neck n neck finishes, it was pure great FUN! I preferred that over GT2 cos it was a lot better looking and I lovd the open country driving in supercars!

But enough reminiscing I believe GT3 and 4 seems too forgiving on mistakes and agree with people who say that the oversteer on a lot of the RWD cars have been under done... again making it more forgiving... I race with all aids off and know that the oversteer tendencies on certain cars should be more than what it is in the game.

The important point is that the issues I dont like, and others have mentioned, are mostly a result of "judgement" by PD not to include or to make it less realistic... theyre all basic programming additions and/or setting certain threshhold levels etc... they dont need next gen PS3 hardware to be implemented... so if PD were concerned about feedback from fans then theyd would implement them into GT5...

I do believe that mech and/or visual damage if implemented should be done across the cars range, not just on certain race cars. Seems pointless otherwise.

With regard to the usage of wheels, Ive hd my DFP for about 2 years now and IMHO its the best thing yet to real feel for the general video game consumer... (though feedback could be stronger, ive got strong arms )
I cant imagine ever preferring the hand controller again for a racing game. there are certain situations where a had controller can get slightly better time round a corner, but thats only becasue you can full lock the steering very quickly AND the fact the handbrake is poorly implemented...
But very good immersion and overall fun the DFP cannot be beaten... (though that new 500aud odd logitech one with the 900deg AND gated stick and clutch should be even better... when price drops
Oh yeah I also used a normal 180deg lock to lock wheel before my DFP and it def doesnt cut the mustard! The stability in high speed twisties and change in elevations is just not there compared to the DFP!

 

[unv412]

You're right when you say that videogames remove the physical experience of being thrown around the interior of a car as it screams around corners. But to say that a racing sim doesn't give you any feedback is untrue -- the difference is that you have to rely on visual and, to an extent, aural feedback. You yourself have demonstrated an ability to perceive this feedback (one example is when you mentioned Forza 2's lack of bodyroll).

The nuances of the movement of a car's suspension as it goes over bumps, the lean, dive, and squat of cornering, braking, and accelerating, the ever-shifting perspective of the scenery around you as your car moves and rotates...all of these things provide crucial visual cues. Meanwhile, your tires screech ever louder as they approach and exceed their limit of traction, and minute changes in your engine's RPM can be a clue that you're beginning to get wheelspin or that you've entered lift-off oversteer.

When you combine all of these things with the input that you give the car, whether it's by controller or wheel, you get a feel for the car...

.

I couldnt have said it better myself!!!!!

Tenacious D,thanks for the info on the physics of FM2....every perspective gathered on this topic is greatly appreciated.I will have to aggree on tyre noise with Wolfe though, as EPR's is probably the least annoying and most communicative i have ever come across.

As for the last bit about the MX5/miata clip in the begining of EPR...........Tenacious D,get your eyesight checked buddy, because if u cant tell the differance between real life and computer grafics....then EPR's THE GAME FOR YOU!!!!!!! You will never have to drive in the real world again. EPR would just substitute that need from now on!!!!

 

[Hugo Boss]

After following this thread, I really want to give FM2 a go. I watched several vids on youtube, but that didn't really stroke with some of the praising comments I read here about the game. True, when you start comparing the sound and the racing experience both games have to offer, GT4 is immediately down 10-0. Being able to design your own livery and use it online, is gold. That's also a must for GT5. On other points though FM2 fails to impress me.

First thing that annoys me is the modelling of the cars. It's not that far off from reality, but when you're used to the accurate modelling from GT4, it's quite a step back.
The damage model also annoys me. Windscreens crack after a small brush and parts just fall off undamaged after a big crash. On the other hand, GT4 has zero damage. So it's just a matter of personal preference. I'd rather have no damage than a simple damage model.
Other thing: The Nordschleife. Having driven there myself, I can say the GT4 version simulates the atmosphere a lot better. The Forza2 version looks like a track that is brand-new. It's too bright, the tarmac is too smooth, the curbs too low, it's hasn't enough trees, etc. -> GT4's version is much better.
The driving physics also don't seem all that. It looks more arcade than GT4, it's not as smooth. I'm now talking about street cars, as race cars in GT4 are a complete travesty. The understeer / lack of oversteer is a bit too much in GT4, especially on race tyres and with the generally poor setups of the car in arcade mode.

In GT Mode I recently created a setup for the '98 Audi S4. In arcade mode it dives and understeers like a madman, but in GT Mode you can make it handle like a dream. Lots of grip, does understeer when you go too fast, but also capable of going sideways through a tight turn with the use of a Scandinavian flick. With the DFP I also get a lof of feedback. There's still a lot to improve for PD, but it isn't all that bad as most people say.

I know my opinion is solely based on information found on the internet, but the GTHD demo did look promising to me on the internet. Only when I got to play the demo myself, it impressed me even more. FM2 is better than GT4 on certain areas for sure, but so far I'm not convinced that FM2 is a better game overall. Not even the FM2 fanboys in this thread could manage that. But since I haven't even played the game, I can't give it a proper verdict either. That makes me wanna try the game...

 

[Diab]

Just have to make a quick note about the Nordschleife, the kerbs and some of the rumble strips have changed in the last 18 months and Forza 2 shows this accurately, the way they are in GT4 right now is not as they are just now. I thought this when I saw the massive rumble strip and kerbing after the first sweeping turn leading over the bridge only to search and find that as well as many other parts have been changed.