Do you think that GT is losing the battle against Forza?

[Scaff]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha seriously you think if you don't like GT5 because of a lack of damage that you're being stubborn. Man I cannot believe I just read that crap. TD you obviously LOVE GT so please stay in those parts of discussions because it's obvious you are only for one camp.

Wow.

And about your utter nonsense about the hadr edged, damage or not in the game then personally I think that's the way it should go. If you want to stay in the past be my guess but progress is better than just a new iteration.

Honestly that was funny, don't think I've laughed like that for a while. Cheers. WaFM.

OK did you miss my post above?

Particularly this bit....

I would also request (politely for now) that some of these posts get a little less personal, the comments are the right side of the AUP currently, but this has a quite clear potential for getting unpleasant and that will not be tolerated.

...this "WaFM" was not needed at all.

To all of you, this is the last warning this thread gets, either it calms down and the discussions carry on without getting personal or it gets locked. The AUP is clear in this area....

You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harrass, threaten, nor attack anyone or any group. There will be no racially, sexually or physically abusive or inciteful language tolerated. Any abusive comments made by members will be removed by the Moderating staff and the user issued with a warning or banned, as deemed appropriate by the Moderating staff. No personal attacks on other members will be tolerated. If you question someone, it must be done in a reasonable and semi-friendly manner. Violating this rule will be grounds for suspension and/or permanent removal from the board.

...and so far I've cut a lot of slack in here on the grounds its a passionate subject, but I feel a few are starting to take things too far. As I say play nice or I will take action against those who chose to treat the AUP as something that applies to others.


Scaff

 

[Tenacious D]

What he said.

Besides, do you mean to tell me that if GT5 Prologue doesn't have damage, you won't buy it? Heck, GT HD doesn't have a pixel of damage, and I can't wait to get my DF Pro around it.

Furthermore, Forza 2's damage system is STILL only partial. Rather than finishing your car off if you hit a wall at 100mph, often you can still keep racing. So... think Forza 2 mostly sucks?

 

[Biggles]

"Damage" means a number of different things to me.

In Forza 1, if you suffered more than cosmetic damage there was no point in continuing a competitive race, especially if the steering was effected. This meant that ramming into other cars, or hitting a wall more than a glancing blow effectively ended your race. The actual visual damage was not that impressive, & it was unrealistically difficult to total your car, but IMO it had the desired effect of making races more or less realistically "clean".

The other element of "damage" was the physical effect of bumping, even lightly into other cars. This would make you spin out, veer off course, run into the grass/sand etc., again effectively ending any chance of winning a very competitve race - very different from the minimal consequences of contact in GT4.

Lack of any damage may have been an acceptable compromise for GT4 on the antiquated PS2, but it will not be acceptable on the new-gen PS3. I would hope, demand even, that, at a minimum, the kind of damage represented in Forza 1 (which appears to be similar to what is in Forza 2), appears in GT5, because if the next version of GT repeats the bumper-cars (lack of any) damage model in GT4, I would NOT buy it.

 

[unv412]

My cousin (my greatest competitor in EPR) just played a downloadable demo for FM2 and gave it some big respect.....is there any big difference, physics wise ,between demo and full version??
Also one more question.......Ive heard GT5 prologue will b out soon, how different was GT4 prolog (i've never played it) to the final GT4???????

Thanks (being polite....as asked by moderators!)

 

[dunkee]

Sorry but could you clarify exactly what you are saying here?

As far as I am aware PD have confirmed that GT5 will have damage (the entire race cars only but is still unclear as parts may have been 'lost in translation'), not supplying it as DLC at a later date.


Scaff

It is in the new Car & Driver..there is a thread in here now. Also they previously confirmed that all the 700 cars from GT4 would be in GT5 but now they say they can't finish it and they can be downloaded later. I wonder if they will make you pay like the original plan?

 

[pol37]

gt4 prologue was imo very closse to gt4, besides that i play forza 2 since it is out and i have to say it is a very impressive game. but the game is good because of the auction house and the online aspekt - the damage is imo a little too exagerated (the spinning out of cars @ contact is 4 me not very realistic) anyway its a great game but GT5 will be an other league compared to forza 2 - it will be out in 2008 until then the bar is raised and forza 2 wont be any competition. i think as long as GT goes with the evolution of sim racer and adds innovation, it will be still the best - microsoft did a bad job with their wheel it feels like a joke vs. the DFP

 

[Tenacious D]

Even though I'm not a huge fan of damage, I think Forza 2's damage system would be fine for GT5. A partial penalty seems to be enough for many of us, and a good hit in Forza 2 will make your race much more of a chore. Now, can Kaz and the lads convince all the automakers to let their cars be crunched? If not, we'll only see it on race cars, and you can't blame Polyphony for that. Maybe it's time that we write the manufacturers and demand damage from them, since they have the final say, and one car maker saying no will nix the whole deal for all of them.

As for Forza 2's physics, it seems to be identical to the demo as far as I can tell. I do like it a lot, and even though I'm rediscovering my love for GT4 all over again, thanks to a dead 350, I do miss Forza 2 very much.

 

[Scaff]

It is in the new Car & Driver..there is a thread in here now. Also they previously confirmed that all the 700 cars from GT4 would be in GT5 but now they say they can't finish it and they can be downloaded later. I wonder if they will make you pay like the original plan?

And from what I have seen and read about that particular article (I will try and pick up a copy - but we normally have to wait a few extra days for it to hit the UK) it does appear to be rather out of date.

Unless you can confirm otherwise, nothing mentioned in the Joystick video and interview, such as damage from the word go and proper dashboard in-car views, is discussed in this piece.

The prospect of damage being a downloadable extra was first mentioned back when GT:HD was going to be the 'release' version and everything was suggested for micro-transactions. It strikes me that the information used in this article may be quite a bit out of date, but then with E3 just around the corner we (fingers crossed) know more soon.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

I think a lot of that "all 700+ cars from GT4 will be in GT5" has been messed up in translation. I think it's possible that a ew GT4 HD is in the works, but I wouldn't hold my sights too high with regards to sheer volume of cars and tracks, it will be high but I wouldn't exect GT4 numbers.

 

[97modman]

Wait are we talking about like a G4 day or an actual television series? Because Pac-Man and Q-Bert both had their own cartoons. And Halo 2 had a couple of G4 days.

Yes, Forza is popular but not everyone is into racing games like they are things like Halo.

Actaul TV series.. Forza 2 this year had there own series on speedvision with 8 different teams with cars that were in Forza and whatever they did as far as tuning in the game they did it on real cars..Search and you will find clips from Forza Showdown I think it aired for the month of April..it was a pretty good show..

 

[Biggles]

the damage is imo a little too exagerated (the spinning out of cars @ contact is 4 me not very realistic)

The problem in GT4 is there are NO consequences to bumping into other cars, in fact, it's often the best way to get past other cars. In Forza, it's very risky to have any contact with other cars, which I'm guessing is probably true in real life (I wouldn't know - I don't make a point of ramming other cars when I'm driving... )

 

[GTXLR]

What he said.

Besides, do you mean to tell me that if GT5 Prologue doesn't have damage, you won't buy it? Heck, GT HD doesn't have a pixel of damage, and I can't wait to get my DF Pro around it.

Furthermore, Forza 2's damage system is STILL only partial. Rather than finishing your car off if you hit a wall at 100mph, often you can still keep racing. So... think Forza 2 mostly sucks?

I couldnt wait to get my G25 around GTHD, but once again aside from the far prettier visuals, the Physics were only a minor adjustment of what was GT4, hence nothing new, the driving was second nature to me, but all in all it was nothing new, I played it for a weekend, but it like my PS3 has remained virtually untouched since.
Im pretty much convinced (for many reasons) as Dave mentions, that the next GT between GT4 and 5, will be a revamped version of GT4 HD (that was due at PS3 launch), GT5 the complete reworked PS3 built game will then be a further 2-3 years away!, the content of either these titles is Lost in translation of the interviews available, and the understanding of the questions through those translating at the time of interviews, and im sure a little of it, is smoke screen to hide the debarcle (and the 2 years wasted time) that has been the issue of the next GT!
If this xmas season, GT rocks up as a Prettied up version of GT4, looks alone will help move some sales, but if the content isnt changed much, then i would be unhappy, i could easily afford the game regardless, but would it saitsify me or please me, no!
if they fail to get it online, substantially, (Everytime i hear about this aspect from PD in interviews, they go on more about the community and trading, purchasing and sharing aspects, and completely avoid an answer or description for online racing aspects, this really concerns me), i may even avoid it completely, GT has been failing to deliver in its past two iterations on its promise, it looks like that may potentially happen again with the very next GT title we see and their are now enough alternatives in the SIM world.
Despite all this when the true PS3 GT does finally arrive, i expect to truly deliver,its just that may well be a very very long way off.

 

[ChadSpeed]

Even though I'm not a huge fan of damage, I think Forza 2's damage system would be fine for GT5. A partial penalty seems to be enough for many of us, and a good hit in Forza 2 will make your race much more of a chore. Now, can Kaz and the lads convince all the automakers to let their cars be crunched? If not, we'll only see it on race cars, and you can't blame Polyphony for that. Maybe it's time that we write the manufacturers and demand damage from them, since they have the final say, and one car maker saying no will nix the whole deal for all of them.

As for Forza 2's physics, it seems to be identical to the demo as far as I can tell. I do like it a lot, and even though I'm rediscovering my love for GT4 all over again, thanks to a dead 350, I do miss Forza 2 very much.

I agree D. I was kinda surprised CnD said FM2s damage was watered down. Even a small impact that only does cosmetic damage will affect your drag and top speed thus slowing your lap times down. One high speed collision with another car or solid wall and you done, 12mph does not count as continued racing. Everything from you transmission, engine, brakes, and steering can be damaged so I am not sure what they mean by watered down. GT would benefit greatly from this same damage. But GT being a much more artfully done game I understand Kaz wanting it perfect.
I think FM2 is pretty accurate, my last memorable wreck was in a D class race on the Ring. A Saleen S281 lost it around the second set of esses and I was waiting for the right time to pass close behind and T boned him. I was driving a Colbalt SS, the Supercharger resides directly on the front upper portion of the motor and after the impact I had lost all boost and limped around until the others finished. I brought up the in race graph and the car was only making 112 hp instead of the 222 hp it was making at the beginning.

 

[Scaff]

I was kinda surprised CnD said FM2s damage was watered down.

FM2's damage is watered down because it effects your performance to a degree, but as far as I am aware (and I have asked if anyone can post a video showing FM2 damage in its full glory) it doesn't go as far as DNFs from damage.

Racing/driving sims and games on the last generation of consoles allowed DNFs (Richard Burns Rally and TRD3 to name two) and F1:CE does it on this generation. All the things that have been mentioned so far in regard to FM2s damage model were already present in the first game.

As far as damage for GT5 goes, I for one certainly would not be happy to settle for what FM2 offers. Lets at least have something that comes close to the right degree of penalty (and what's with the exploding windows on all cars - perspex windows on race cars don't explode).

Regards

Scaff

 

[Dave A]

As far as I've experienced, I've never seen a DNF due to damage in FM2, only from quitting the race. You can seriousely ruing your cars performance to the point where finishing the last 2 laps of a race could literally take half an hour or more on a regular sized circuit, but not to actually end the race there and then. FM2's damage model is similar in physical damage to FM1's but it does affect the cars performance more seriousely on the simulation setting. I never hammered my cars performance as much in FM1 as I have in FM2. It is an improvment, but it's not a revolution, though the fact oyu can so seriousely hinder you cars performance, the bigger crashes imo might as well be DNFs, it's serious enough to make you think about your driving.

Colin McRae DiRT is at present the game that leads the damage simulation race. That game has some amazing damage effects, far more so than Race Driver 3 and DNFs are common place (for me at least) in the harder difficulty levels with damage at full.

 

[Diab]

This is what GT5 is up against in sound alone:



My point is Forza 2 shows there is no excuse for poor engine sounds in this generation of racing sims. PD have a lot to aim for in this aspect imo.

 

[McLaren]

This is what GT5 is up against in sound alone:



My point is Forza 2 shows there is no excuse for poor engine sounds in this generation of racing sims. PD have a lot to aim for in this aspect imo.

True, there is no excuse, but at this time, no one has heard the next gen. Gran Turismo, let alone seen it.

 

[Diab]

Yep I know McLaren mate, I'm just using that as an example, if GT does it's usual then I know that myself at least will be disappointed as I'm sure will be others.

 

[McLaren]

Yep I know McLaren mate, I'm just using that as an example, if GT does it's usual then I know that myself at least will be disappointed as I'm sure will be others.

I will be, but they're going to have correct in-car sounds too, now that they're planning such a view.

 

[ChadSpeed]

FM2's damage is watered down because it effects your performance to a degree, but as far as I am aware (and I have asked if anyone can post a video showing FM2 damage in its full glory) it doesn't go as far as DNFs from damage.

Racing/driving sims and games on the last generation of consoles allowed DNFs (Richard Burns Rally and TRD3 to name two) and F1:CE does it on this generation. All the things that have been mentioned so far in regard to FM2s damage model were already present in the first game.

As far as damage for GT5 goes, I for one certainly would not be happy to settle for what FM2 offers. Lets at least have something that comes close to the right degree of penalty (and what's with the exploding windows on all cars - perspex windows on race cars don't explode).

Regards


Scaff

I see where you are coming from Scaff. When mentioning the goffy windows don't forget the neon brakes discs, and horrid replays.

I have to say for me that most wrecks are not seriuos enough too cause a DNF, and the few that are hinder me to around 12 mph and then I of course restart. I enjoy the damage much better than none at all. I know better that to expect perfection from PD or Turn 10. I can't wait for GTs new in car and that will help make up for no damage and possibly horrid sound, but teh replays, soooo good.👍

 

[Tenacious D]

^ What Chad said.

The replays from Forza 2 are even worse than those from Forza 1! Turn 10 did a lot of work on some seriously sweet looking backgrounds that they show off in a few very dramatic sweeping or aerial replay shots, while others have this close-in, spin round the car crap. And as with FM1, just one set of cameras so each lap looks the same. Yet another "what were they thinking??" moment. I'm enjoying GT4 just fine while I wait for my 360 to be resurrected, and a big part of that are the succulent replays.

Oh well, Forza 2 is still awesome and all, but with the DLC, I hope we get a camera patch, and even a driver cam patch.

 

[Biggles]

Yeah the replays are bad in FQ1 & F2.

It just occured to me that the damage in PGR2 is better than in GT4! In PGR2 (the game that introduced me to console racing) at least there is some visible damge to the cars & a more realistic interaction between the cars after a collision. Why did FT4 not have at least this?

 

[TopHat]

They said that if there was going to be damage, they would do it right. They couldn't do it to their own standard, so they scrapped it.

Also they would have had to have taken out a whole lot of cars.

 

[Biggles]

a more realistic interaction between the cars after a collision.

THIS is the most important thing IMO. It's the one thing that really completely undermines GT4 as a sim (+ crappy AI, which is sort of the same thing...)

 

[Junedoggydogg1]

GT Gots the cars...
Forza has the damage modeling and customizations...

If polyphony don't offer customization like forza, they're in trouble.

As for my vote, it will be a good battle.

 

[Wolfe]

...a more realistic interaction between the cars after a collision.

I, too, think this is important, and compared to developing a worthwhile damage model, this is probably relatively easy. Most games get it wrong, though.

 

[Tenacious D]

The PS3 has the power with it's multiprocessor, multithreading capability to render some astounding physics, even in the earliest games. Considering that both physics and A.I. in games like Motorstorm are surprisingly powerful, and Polyphony is blessed with all the resources Sony and IBM have to offer, I have hope for a surprisingly good game. I have a feeling that some people will still find things to complain about, if only to keep a grudge going.

 

[AE Vector]

Technically, the Forza studio does know what it's doing. Same with PD. It's going to be an epic battle and someone's going to win at some point. I am out of practical ways to bet aside from fanboyism, taking a guess, or doing it like Enron did.

 

[97modman]

Damage in a game is crucial especially in a sim..So this means that if i miss a turn end up in a wall bounce around a bit on the last lap i still have a chance to win...right..Not good and far from reality..
It seems to amaze me how M$ can get full damage licensing and Sony is having a hard time doing so..

 

[FoolKiller]

It seems to amaze me how M$ can get full damage licensing and Sony is having a hard time doing so..

It may have something to do with the insanely larger list of cars from many more manufacturers.

And as Wolfe said, most games get it wrong. I would rather see it done right than have an accident and be looking at it saying WTF? Granted, bouncing off the walls and moving on is not cool by any means, but a comical crash would be far worse.

I also understand the perfectionist mentality of PD. I wouldn't be surprised if they have dozens of crash physics programs sitting in a garbage can somewhere. The mentality that PD has just said, "screw you," to the fans is a bit too cynical for me. I have trouble believing they have never at least attempted to get the rights or make a program for crashes.