Do you want GT to have 100% accurate driving simulation?

[Jay]

As for people's opinions, that's why PD added a dumb down physics mode to GT5P.

Thats right, but I'm talking about the people that want "as realistic as possible" physics but we can never all agree on what actually feels realistic.

 

[kikie]

Yep, 100% accurate simulation!

But like many have said, it's not possible. I guess that the PS3 isn't powerfull enough to create 100% accurate physics. There are just too many variables IRL that have to be taken into account for PD to make GT 100% accurate.

PD, why not make a GT-S (S = simulation) version of the GT series. GT5-S.
People whom don't like accurate physics can still buy the GT version. Hard core race simmers can buy the GT-S version.
I would be very pleased if PD develops a GT-S version with a lot lesser cars, more real live tracks, no fantasy tracks, accurate tuning options (setup etc ...), and for me personal, absolutely no license tests and other test. No need to unlock cars, tracks etc ... . Just like in the original GTR and in netKar Pro. Get the game (or sim in this case) and start practicing (driving, racing).
Basically the same or maybe even better than RBR, physics wise.

That's how I see it, that's my GT-dream.


Merry Christmas to all!

 

[jedaye]

Yes, but make sure we still have the "Standard" and "Professional" options, otherwise most people will get annoyed quickly.

 

[kikie]

Yes, but make sure we still have the "Standard" and "Professional" options, otherwise most people will get annoyed quickly.

You mean for the GT5 version?

Yep,standard and professional options is a must for the GT5 version.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

Simple YES!!!!!!!!! 1000%

 

[finnracer]

I would like to see how they make you feel g-forces.

 

[SCUD77]

i don't think it should be ultra realistic,prob 90% of posters on here want uber real with punctures /damage / /dead fly's appearing on the windscreen, the lot but as soon as i start getting fed up with failing challenges or races because of a bit of damage i will loose the pleasure of the game and ultimatelty stop playing it as much, and this is the same for 70% of the real world game buyers the trouble gt5 has is in trying to please purists like some peeps on here and also pleasing casual gamer's who are wowed by the look of gt5 when it's shown in game stores the last thing pd want is to sell lots of copy's only to have a mass trade in exodus the week after.

 

[sennarose88]

PD, why not make a GT-S (S = simulation) version of the GT series. GT5-S.
People whom don't like accurate physics can still buy the GT version. Hard core race simmers can buy the GT-S version.
I would be very pleased if PD develops a GT-S version with a lot lesser cars, more real live tracks, no fantasy tracks, accurate tuning options (setup etc ...), and for me personal, absolutely no license tests and other test. No need to unlock cars, tracks etc ...


Merry Christmas to all!

No need. GT series are already The Real Driving Simulator. If there is a GT-S, what it will be? The Best Representation of Real Driving?

Merry christmas too, for anyone who celebrate it

 

[phil_2001]

It can simulate real life physics and G-forces have nothing to do with it. When you're looking at a race on the TV you're not thinking that it's not %100 real because it has no G-forces for you to feel. It's still real because it's real car, just cam recorded! So can be Gran Turismo. The G-forces are on their way infact. In the future when science gets ahold on human psychology there will be very easy to simulate G-forces without any utilities, or controllers.

P.S. I wonder why people respond NO to this poll. Wow that's weird.

 

[Dan_]

I voted for 100% simulation, although I recognize that you can't achieve it playing with a controller.

 

[ADEuk]

Dear Santa..

• Disc 1 Arcade/Online
• Disc 2 GT/GT online
• Disc 3 Full Simulator

 

[Mr Whippy]

GT5 TT physics drives really well all said and done.

Drive around not quickly, making maybe 0.5g lateral for most bends, and 0.5g for most braking, and the car is solid as a rock as you would expect, take all the lateral g's up cornering, and you find there is little to do accelerating or braking... great! You really can balance the car on a knife edge eventually (needed to get QUICK times)... perhaps N2 would be a tad less grippy and open that limit up to be easier to find and make driving there a bit more fun!?


Where GT needs to improve, isn't in the tyre model. From GT4, PD seem to have gone MAD with tyres. There should just be OEM (what the car comes on when you buy it in real life), some track day stuff like R888 Toyo, and then a range of slicks... basically like GT3.

N3 = 'normal'

S2 = 'sporty track day'

R1...9 = 'slicks from hard to soft'



What needs attention overall, and stands out as a big fault imho, is braking. Do I have ABS? I can't feel it, or sense it. No matter what I do with my brakes I have no idea if they are locking or not.
For instance, in GT5 TT, I can't seem to get turn-in over-steer under hard breaking on entry, the car just pushes wide like they are locked, but then they don't lock in a straight line OR bends, as you never see it in replays locked up...

So just WHAT is going on with brakes in GT?

ALL GT games have been the same. Fine for D-pad users who would find modulating hard, but what about wheel/pedal users who want a nice linear braking response, and don't just go mashing their pedal for every bend (thats how you can drive and it's not realistic at all)...
It's much like steering help on d-pad, you really do need it, but it's not turned on for 900deg wheels. We need the 'braking' help turning off for wheel users too. It's just ruining realism when anything braking related is going on imho.

Dave

 

[Raitziger]

Most people have not even smelled 1% of cars GT offers so they do not know what is realistic and what the want. Including me.

 

[bicycleshorts]

A lot of people seem to not have bothered reading the first post, so I'll quote it:

I'm reading on various threads here and elsewhere that what people don't really want is an exact simulation of driving?

Last week I went to a trackday, I drove a Lotus Exige, I got some instruction and I tried to improve my time around the track, keeping as far away from other vehicles as possible.

I left no skidmarks, did not damage the car, and definitely did not paint the car with my favourite character from some other game.

I discussed what pressure the tyres were set to, what tuning had been done to the car, and how the suspension was setup, but as I don't know any better I didn't make any changes to any of these things.

This I would like to learn, preferably in a situation where if I make a detrimental change no one gets hurt and the car isn't damaged.

This is all I wanted from Gran Turismo since day one, it had lots of information about the history of various vehicles and I could make adjustments and see how they affected the car.

In real life, instead of upgrading the engine with turbo's or increasing the bore like the rest of my friends, I upgraded the tyres and suspension first, because that seemed to be the best bang for my buck.

I find the GT5 TT to be a huge improvement in realism in the way the car reacts, but a lot of people seem unhappy with this.

Do you want GT to simulate the response of the steering wheel and your inputs to visually recreate 100% of what would happen in real life, or are you wanting something totally different, and if so, why, and what brings you to GT instead of the many other racing games?

His debate was more centred around peoples' misconceptions with reality; rather than a discussion about whether physics etc. should match these misconceptions.

I'll agree with everything he has said but will add that without the risk of terminal damage (and as easily as it occurs in real life); a lot will be lost from the representation of real life.

I'm guessing you were scared of crashing the Exige when you were driving it; that fear should be represented (in some way, not necessarily a damage model) in the final game.

 

[Exorcet]

Most people have not even smelled 1% of cars GT offers so they do not know what is realistic and what the want. Including me.

That's not an excuse. Learn some physics, read up on cars. You can easily find a few bits of info that tell you when something is wrong in a sim. You might not be able to say what is 100% realistic, or 95%, or maybe not even 90%, but if a game is at something like 75% (GT5P) or 45% (GT4), you can tell.

*numbers are rough estimates off the top of my head.

 

[Mr Whippy]

Just had a go with the d-pad, it's certainly a challenge to be smooth, but not THAT much more than with the wheel (G25)...
I use the left joystick for left/right and acc/brake, and triangle and cross for up/down gears...

Where you lose out on ultra fine steering/throttle control, you regain with faster steering response, so you can easily regain composure that might see you in a spin-out with the wheel...

Personally, if the final GT5 comes like this (N3 for standard tyres on road cars), I will be happy. It's fun and enjoyable and instantly accessible yet rewarding on the d-pad, and also fun and enjoyable to a deeper level on the g25...


Having just played with GT5P and then GT5 TT demo back to back, the TT really is a notch up in every way in my view. The sounds immerse more and feel more balanced and accurate from skids to wind to engine and sensation of speed.

I really am looking forward to the final release now with anticipation!

PS, only run demo with g25 so far and got down to 1:51, 2nd lap with the d-pad and managed a 1:54 already and it was messy, so I think PD have really done well in balancing the fun factor and realism, with the constraints of the controllers different users will have!

Well done PD!

Dave

 

[Stevisiov]

Nothing can ever be 100% simulation, at 100% it is no longer a simulation, its an exact copy of what it is meant to be copying and the two are completely indistinguishable. Gran Turismo would have to become real if that were to happen, and since its a fictional philosophy, it never will be 100% real.

I would like to see the driving physics to be as close to reality as possible, but I don't want the reality of racing to be accurately simulated at all times, i.e races being red flagged for bad weather. There's lots of annoying little details of real racing which we flag up as being part of life, these are things I don't want to see simulated. Can you imagine having to raise sponsorship just so you can race, that would be crazy, and not in a good way.

 

[Raitziger]

Someday we will have holodecks like in star trek

 

[Heath_1]

Don't really know what to vote for this one so I wont, but I'll say this. by 100% you obviously mean 'perfect'. Sorry but perfect doesn't and never will exist. That said however, after experiencing the GT5 demo I think GT5 will be close to it.

 

[dbarrade]

@bicycleshorts, yes, I was more scared of damaging the Exige and having to pay for it than my safety as the track I was at has wide run offs and I've only ever see one person damage their car due to a collision there.

Good to see some people actually read my OP and got my point, but so far the only reason people have said they don't want accurate physics is because they are scared that it will reduce the fun factor.

Again, I was referring to accurate representation of the way the car moves due to your inputs.

There are plenty of other threads that discuss damge, running out of petrol, all that fluff around the edges, but my main concern is that the car reacts how a real car would so I can learn more.

I had certain expectations about cars on the edge that I have now learnt and understand what happens in reality.

For example it never occured to me that when you countersteer you can countersteer past the direction that the vehicle is travelling and continue to reduce the traction (steering capability) of the tyres on the outside of the direction the car is travelling.

Until an instructor pushed the wheel back to where it should be and I learnt through feel something that I had experienced in GT but never really felt or looked right on screen until GT5 TT.

The intention of 100% accurate physics was more my gist, I understand we will never be able to simulate all the atoms that are at play during driving a car round a track, but an accurate representation is what I thought was everyone's goal, it seems people want things to be unrealistic to make it more fun, similar to how in an FPS you can run jump and fall further than anyone could in real life, or an RPG your character has infinitely large pockets, I just wanted to understand where they want GT to be unrealistic to make it a better game.

Obviously simulating death and limited funds aren't going to make GT fun, but whilst the car is actually moving what is it that people want to be different to reality?

 

[chepe371]

Vote: Yes

That's the point, isn't it?

It could even be expanded by becoming a learning tool for street driving.

 

[Northstar]

Yes, If I crash hard enough I want it so that it makes my PS3 die and I can never use is again unless I buy one.

Really, If I wanted a 100% realistic experience I would go race in real life. i play video games to escape reality. I don't want to have to crunch numbers just to figure out if I can repair a car just to go around a track a few times after working all day.

(I voted no if you couldn't tell)

 

[ppith]

I'm reading on various threads here and elsewhere that what people don't really want is an exact simulation of driving?

Yes! When I feel like concentrating less, I turn up driver aids. Similar to real life, driving in GT now with all aids off is mentally exhausting. However, the drifting modeled in the game of the stock 370Z is extremely close to real life (except when off track, then it's more like driving in snow/ice). Maintaining drifts with gas and a touch of steering or seeing how the car reacts when you lift off the gas during a drift impressed me so much I can't stop talking about it. This is exactly how my 2003 350Z drove at the limit and beyond. Like others have said, if it's too realistic everyone can just turn on driver aids. In most sports cars these days, you can either turn on aids by pushing a button or turn them off (some to varying degrees).

 

[BlackZ28]

This is a "be careful what you wish for" situation. A full sim on a console would be a disaster. I think GT5 is just the right mix of the right flavors... well, assuming there is a track editor and color customization for vehicles.

 

[TrievelA7X]

Yes. And shame on those 31 people.

Now that's not to say they shouldn't have "standard" modes, like GT5P, and assits, like the past few GT games, plus I'd say they should add difficulty settings as well, just to change the AI speeds.

 

[kikie]

Nothing can ever be 100% simulation, at 100% it is no longer a simulation, its an exact copy of what it is meant to be copying and the two are completely indistinguishable. Gran Turismo would have to become real if that were to happen, and since its a fictional philosophy, it never will be 100% real.

Mmm, isn't a simulation a substitute for the real thing. A, like you already said, copy (imitation) of the real world with the aid of a model, in this case software and hardware, thus a 100% simulation is still a simulation.
If a 100% simulation is no longer a simulation than you would be in the real world with a real car on a real track and not using a model to simulate the real world.
Simulation = using a model (GT, G25, cockpit) to accurately simulate the real world, 100% or not.

It's true that you cannot ever simulate 100% what the real world represents, hence what I said before. > There are too many many variables IRL that have to be taken into account. At this point, this is limited by the limited power of the PS3, even the current pc's and ofcourse how much it will cost to create a real driving simulator.

They can never simulate true G-forces. Simulators can simulate real G-forces and fool your body (brain) that you're experiencing true G-forces and these simulated G-forces can be 100% accurate. But your body will never feel, undergo the same physical sensations as real G-forces. You cannot ever feel the same fears as when you're driving at high speeds on a real track.

If this is what you mean, than you're right. But if you're trying to say what I said in the first paragraph, than I don't agree.

Research into motion fidelity indicates that, while some motion is necessary in a research driving simulator, it does not need to have enough range to match real-world forces.

There is a question of validity -- whether results obtained in the simulator are applicable to real-world driving. Given the inability to replicate some simulator studies on the sidewalk this is likely to remain an issue for some time. Some research teams are using automated vehicles to recreate simulator studies on a test track, enabling a more direct comparison between the simulator study and the real world.

Simulation games, as opposed to other genres of video and computer games, represent or simulate an environment accurately.

An interactive simulation is a physical simulation that requires human interaction, like a driving simulator.

Pilots are trained in a flight simulator. It's a 100% accurate representation (read simulation) of the real thing. Otherwise they wouldn't bother trainging piots using this simulator.
Pilots do say that it cannot replace the experiences of a real flight, how good of a (100%) simulation it is.

Although the best technology can simulate the real world, it will still be a simulation, how accurate (100%) the simulation might be.

In case of GT, isn't it so that the physics engine can be 100% accurate (if the PS3 would be powerfull enough)?

Is it safe to drive in the simulator?

Yes, the simulator is very safe. One of the benefits of the simulator is that it can simulate real-world driving situations without risking human life in the process. NADS places the utmost importance on the safety of our participants.​

Source: http://www.nads-sc.uiowa.edu/

Someday we will have holodecks like in star trek

I already have one but sssshhhttt, don't tell anyone, owkee?

I know Captain Picard in person and he pursuaded Star Fleet to donate me one! I had to go back to the future to get one, but that's another movie.


ON Topic, I still want PD to create an accurate GT version, a hardcore sim as it were, if it's possible on the PS3.

 

[Mubble]

In real life, instead of upgrading the engine with turbo's or increasing the bore like the rest of my friends, I upgraded the tyres and suspension first, because that seemed to be the best bang for my buck.

Sorry, but I think you've made a mistake in that case.

Upgraded suspension is one of the most expensive mods you can do. On my car, to upgrade the springs and add a set of coilovers would cost over £1200. Add to this tyres at £140 each, you're looking at £1800.

However, if you concentrate on the turbo, you could increase the boost level for the price of a manual boost controller and boost gauge (£50), or even buy an upgraded turbo for as little as £400-£600.

 

[Northstar]

Yes. And shame on those 31 people.

Now that's not to say they shouldn't have "standard" modes, like GT5P, and assits, like the past few GT games, plus I'd say they should add difficulty settings as well, just to change the AI speeds.

Yes, how dare I have an enjoyable experience.


I use pro physics, with no aids, yet I voted no. Like I said, I want to come home and relax and forget about all the crap I have to deal with in real life, not deal with a simulation of those things. I want to turn on my PS3 and take a few hotlaps around the ring, not deal with things that I normally deal with.

 

[Exorcet]

Yes, If I crash hard enough I want it so that it makes my PS3 die and I can never use is again unless I buy one.

Really, If I wanted a 100% realistic experience I would go race in real life. i play video games to escape reality. I don't want to have to crunch numbers just to figure out if I can repair a car just to go around a track a few times after working all day.

(I voted no if you couldn't tell)

You missed the point, nothing you're complaining about really has anything to do with 100% simulation. 100% simulation means 100% accurate physics. It was also clarified multiple times in the thread, even two posts directly above the post of yours I'm quoting.

People need to do more than read words, interpret and comprehend. All these "be careful what you wish for" posts are way off the mark. I guess one could misunderstand the title, but there are quite a few posts here that clarify the point of the thread.

But anyway, 100% accuracy does not mean you'll need to start a game from birth and go through college, and then get shot by your TV if you crash. It just means the cars will act 100% like real cars. You could still very easily come home, forget about real life, and lap the Ring if GT was a 100% pure simulation.

 

[Northstar]

100% simulation means everything that you would have to do in real life. If this thread was only to talk about physics the OP should have put physics in the title. In fact his post talks about upgrades which really has nothing to do with physics.

Maybe it's you that should read more, not me.