Does "Freedom" exist nowadays?

[Danoff]

Three questions to begin with:

1. What do you think is freedom?
2. Do you think you're free in this modern ages?
3. Do you want to be "free" (according to your description of freedom)?

Please answer this questions first so you expose your view properly and others can argue with you based on that.

1. Lack of forcible coercion from others
2. No
3. Yes.

In order for everyone to be free as I've defined it above, everyone must give up their ability to use force against others except in defense of their own freedom. This is the principle upon which the US government was founded. We've gotten very far from that principle - to the point where government and individuals routinely use non-defensive force.

It's fine if you don't want to be free, but everyone is entitled to the option - so even if you have a majority of people who do not want to be free, you still cannot justify the oppression of the minority who do. Check my signature.

 

[CTznOfTime]

So Much to read in two pages ....


therefore i will make it short:

NO, we are not free.... WE are lemmings!!

The only freedom we have (here in the USA at least) is to shop until we drop...

 

[hambone8611]

Despite endless rules and regulations you are still free to live your life as you see fit if you chose to sit around all day smoking weed and avoid work you can eat at the soup kitchen if you chose to work hard you will receive the fruits of your labor if you choose to go on to collage then go to work their will be more fruit just because there are consequences to stupid choices and laws to prevent chaos does not mean you are not free

 

[Danoff]

Despite endless rules and regulations you are still free to live your life as you see fit period If you chose to sit around all day smoking weed and avoiding work comma you can eat at the soup kitchen period If you chose to work hard comma you will receive the fruits of your labor period If you choose to go on to collaege and then go to work comma their will be more fruit period Just because there are consequences to stupid choices comma and laws to prevent chaos comma does not mean you are not free period

Fixed.

 

[wfooshee]

If you have publicly funded elementary and high school, you are being subsidized for roughly 12 years. YOu are paying into it, for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.

But not at the same rate as it was expended while I was in school. My public education might have cost X dollars, averaging X/12 dollars per year. I do NOT contribute anywhere near that amount in that portion of my annual taxes which go towards education funding, and that portion of my taxes funds a LARGER population than existed when i was in the school system.

You want to see the result of a system where school attendance is "voluntary?" Check out your inner cities. Truant kids skipping or flunking out of school because they think they have a better deal. Their gang will take care of them, so who needs school? They're gonna be an NBA millionaire, so who needs school? Or simply, they're gonna marry rich, so who needs school? Yeah, that's the life for me. I wish I'd had the opportunity to live in that kind of society! 👎 Not quite what "Free at last!" means.

 

[Ibonibo]

I am the exception to the rule. Freedom means you CAN do these things, being a sociopath means you DO those things. I'll assume most people, if relieved from laws, for absolute freedom, would carry on with their lives in much the same way, save for driving faster.

I'm in the minority that would push the boundaries of morality to the furthest possible extent.

And yes, I am borderline insane. I think. I don't really know, but I probably should get it checked out.

This is really sick!!

As the Thread opener said. Freedom is to do what you want as long as you don't cut the freedom of other beeing.

killing someone is cutting someone freedoms, as is stealing, raping,...

what you think is freedom is total anarchy. Not freedom

So i think the 1st posters definition is quite good

and i think nowadays that we don't live in a free world anymore.
i think laws are very useful as long as it not gets stupid. Exemple : alcool+ minors. I saw in so many countries complaining about binchdrinking, youngster drinking,... and therefor restricting the laws. But actually they had laws, just the law was not followed. Or the theme of guns (in europe not us!) after the schoolshootings. Forbidding everybody is nonsense . it's like the gov. would say: People , you are to stupid to use guns, so only gov. employees are now allowed to have guns. Restrict it so no idiot can get guns (like the guy above ) and don't give out guns when buying a happy meal, or opening a bank account (US).

But on the other hand, we where never as free as nowadays, generally speaking. You can travel the whole (80%) world without fear. open businesses, date who you want, have the religion you want, have access to education

(the canadian minor who don't want to go to school anymore: if you don't you got chances to get unemployed so beeing on the gov. expenses later on, so cutting in the tax budget and therefor limiting the freedom of the social group for other 'more' important expenses)

The danger consist in the non thinking of the people when the gov. trys to manipulate. America cut civil rights after 9-11. Curroptive gov. will profit from reason like these. So WE the PEOPLE need to look out at the directives of our gov. and react if something goes wrong. if we do that, we will sort the minor problems out without doubt

I can see this thread become the Libertarian thread quickly. But what I would add to what I said earlier, Is that I think welfare and social assistance is a violation of freedom as well. As much as people try to guilt me into thinking it is, it isn't my responsibility to pay for someone who dropped out of school and has no job.

Basically, to sum up what I think about this, Is most publicly funded things should be removed. I don't think i should be required to go to school, nor should I have to pay for someone who didn't. Another thing, If you have publicly funded elementary and high school, you are being subsidized for roughly 12 years. YOu are paying into it, for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.

you see , you definetly need o go to school. learn history to understand the present day and the future.

The social charges are invented in the industy states in the 19th century for a very good reason i will now not say because it will become too long.

And think like that: you go to school, get a job till 45 and get fired. Nobody wants you old ass, your wife and kids left because you're porr now. Wouldn't it be nice to get a littel recognition from the socity you worked for 25 years???


You become sick (big thread in he us) and had a crappy job which didn't give you health insurance....


and in the world of today where labor (manual)work is less and less required and intellectual word is requested where will you see yourself in 20 years.

Education is everything.

(if the middle east would have a good eduction for 2 generation, nobody would bomb themself for 12 virgins)

Basically, to sum up what I think about this, Is most publicly funded things should be removed. I don't think i should be required to go to school, nor should I have to pay for someone who didn't. Another thing, If you have publicly funded elementary and high school, you are being subsidized for roughly 12 years. YOu are paying into it, for the REST OF YOUR LIFE.[/QUOTE]

Who would pay for your sorrow old ass after you worked?? People coming from school. The hole system is more complex then you think and worked very well in europe for 100 years (now we have problems 'cause politicans can handle people's money -> other problem)

*i thought kind the same when i was younger, wanna quit school at 16 and working. now i'm happy i didn't.*

Eduction ruled the world since the beginning of sofisticated living beeings

Danoff:

signature: Yes and no !?!? If the hole socity takes a vote. The majority choice is the right one (look it from the side if you would be on the majority side). One the other hand, a majority does never own the right to suppress a minority (racism,....) biggest identical theme nowadays :smoking. Suppessing smokers, or tolerate them,... other thread...

 

[Duke]

The only freedom we have (here in the USA at least) is to shop until we drop...

This is absolutely and completely untrue.

 

[wfooshee]

Education is everything.

As is demonstrated by the multiple instances of dropped capitals, homonym switches, singular/plural mismatches, etc.

Your point is valid, though.

 

[Danoff]

Danoff:

signature: Yes and no !?!? If the hole socity takes a vote. The majority choice is the right one (look it from the side if you would be on the majority side).

Why?

One the other hand, a majority does never own the right to suppress a minority (racism,....) biggest identical theme nowadays :smoking. Suppessing smokers, or tolerate them,... other thread...

That's the point - that you have rights that no majority has any say over.

 

[Interpol-007]

Yes, you can be free if you stick with God "jesus".
Just think about if you follow as he says.
You will be free of sin.
Free your mind.
Free your soul.
Free yourself from many thing that harm you.

That does not mean you don't have to pay your bills. You have to work to survive.

 

[Danoff]

Interpol... WTH?

There is nothing free about organized religion - both literally and figuratively. God comes along with a whole book full of rules. You become religious in part so you can pretend you're not free, not to become free.

I love, too, that you follow up your proof of freedom with the statement "you have to work". Beautiful irony.

 

[Northstar]

. As much as people try to guilt me into thinking it is, it isn't my responsibility to pay for someone who dropped out of school and has no job.

Thing is, most of the recipients of govt. assistance have jobs and are just trying to work their way through what was dealt to them. It's not like they give EBT cards (food stamps) to anyone. There is actually a fairly strict set of guidelines you have to meet before you can get approved.

Yes, you can be free if you stick with God "jesus".

If religion is freedom, than why can't you bang a chick out of wedlock?

 

[DK]

Yes, you can be free if you stick with God "jesus".

First of all, religion is not this great force that supports personal freedoms. Religion has been the foundation of many laws throughout history - not all of them just. The Taliban, for example, fight in the cause of their religion. And they like to oppress women and other religions than Islam. The KKK believe their cause is justified by religion - i.e. Christianity. Religion has never been the greatest thing man has ever created. Religion has oppressed many for millennia (sp?), so personally I think that religion has been a barrier to freedom.
^ I know all the Jesus freaks are obviously going to flame me for this and say "You're going to hell!"

 

[Public'sTwin]

First of all, religion is not this great force that supports personal freedoms. Religion has been the foundation of many laws throughout history - not all of them just. The Taliban, for example, fight in the cause of their religion. And they like to oppress women and other religions than Islam. The KKK believe their cause is justified by religion - i.e. Christianity. Religion has never been the greatest thing man has ever created. Religion has oppressed many for millennia (sp?), so personally I think that religion has been a barrier to freedom.
^ I know all the Jesus freaks are obviously going to flame me for this and say "You're going to hell!"

They may not, but I'll point out to you that most of Western civilization's moral core was founded upon the basis of religions; without the Greek mythos, the Judaic code, and the Nordic pre-Roman cultures, the world you know today would be vastly different.

Religion may not have inspired a flourishing of personal freedoms within the context that we know it today, but it played the crucial role in maintaining civility, as it was the authority on standards of behavior.

As the prevalence of social mores, as distinct from religious mores, came to equate with Christianity's values, religion's role as a modifier of human indulgence started becoming moot. No longer is religion needed to govern human behaviour, as it's now so ingrained in our race about what is acceptable, that, without it, we could carry on responsibly with the values created for ourselves.

The trick to creating a social standard was the threat of divine punishment; in an age where your closest neighbour may be a kilometre down the road, the disincentive to killing him for his land may not have been the King's men - but God condemning you to hell for eternity in the afterlife. Knowing that man cannot govern man 24/7, as we essentially can now, there had to be a higher power which bore this responsibility, one which would be merciless to your infractions and utterly infallible.

Lo and behold, it worked. But I don't think we need the training wheels any more.

Religion has been the foundation of many laws throughout history - not all of them just. The Taliban, for example, fight in the cause of their religion.

(Since you're still in highschool [and sure to be writing many more essays] I'm going to point out that these two ideas are not linked; drop the "for example" and you're free to carry on - but as it stands, your case with the Taliban does not support the thesis that Religion has been the foundation of many laws, as religious codes predate the Taliban by many thousands of years, and is also a poor representative of any given culture's typical values. 👍)

 

[Interpol-007]

First of all, religion is not this great force that supports personal freedoms. Religion has been the foundation of many laws throughout history - not all of them just. The Taliban, for example, fight in the cause of their religion. And they like to oppress women and other religions than Islam. The KKK believe their cause is justified by religion - i.e. Christianity. Religion has never been the greatest thing man has ever created. Religion has oppressed many for millennia (sp?), so personally I think that religion has been a barrier to freedom.
^ I know all the Jesus freaks are obviously going to flame me for this and say "You're going to hell!"

Those examples you made come from evil, and yes those are the real barrier to freedom. They do not let you reach your inner self. We are divine humans, we were created for a purpose, we were created for good.

Remember there is only one True Church and only one True Religion.

You were born free. But the choices you make will mark your life.
God gave us many warning , but at the end we will do what we please.
Evil exist too...

Only God knows where you will be going.

 

[Famine]

Remember there is only one True Church and only one True Religion.

I guess it's just lucky that an accident of geography meant you picked the right one, eh?

You were born free.

Not if we're not free to choose who - and how - we worship.

 

[A2K78]

Interpol... WTH?

There is nothing free about organized religion - both literally and figuratively. God comes along with a whole book full of rules. You become religious in part so you can pretend you're not free, not to become free.

I disagree. When it come to religion participation is an individual choice as there is no law that mandate it.

As whether freedom exist,it doesn't especially when we have government regulating our lives in particular way.

Americans love to characterize the fact that America is a free country, but in reality we not when you consider the fact the government either mandate things or centrally plan our lives in manner. An example of how government does it is through taxation.

Religion has been the foundation of many laws throughout history - not all of them just. The Taliban, for example, fight in the cause of their religion.

Its interesting that you bring up the Taliban and the fact they are fighting for the cause of their religion and this where I say your wrong.

Look at this, but the Taliban is like any culture that is fighting against what they see as a foreign threat to what they see as freedom, not just to their religion but rather way of life, politics, culture, economy, etc.

Tell me this, but how would you feel if a foreign invading force tried to come into your country even to the point of trying to change the way your society operate or freedoms? I'm sure like anybody you wouldn't stand for it. In fact this why the Taliban like Al Qaeda are seen as freedom fighters.

 

[wfooshee]

Remember there is only one True Church and only one True Religion.

Which is what they all say, thus justifying whatever they want to do to the "others" who think differently from themselves.

Only God knows where you will be going.

Ah, so it's predestined, then, is it? That makes me free, how, exactly?

I'm having a difficult time trying to even conceive of anything less free than living a life that's already mapped, decided, and immutable.

 

[Sureboss]

Like a robot with a self-detonation timer.












I didn't take that from Red Dwarf.

 

[Duke]

Remember there is only one True Church and only one True Religion.

1) Most major religions say that. Prove which one is right.

2) If there really is only one True Church and only one True Religion, then the odds are astronomically huge against human beings actually discovering that single Truth.

 

[Stevisiov]

Ah, so it's predestined, then, is it? That makes me free, how, exactly?

I'm having a difficult time trying to even conceive of anything less free than living a life that's already mapped, decided, and immutable.

Yeh, guess he knows if your going to heaven or hell before your born, so there's nothing you can do to alter that path. It's a shame because if everything you did was pre-determined, and thus you had no free will, then you couldn't actually 'be saved', you're doomed to failure from the beginning.

 

[DK]

We are divine humans, we were created for a purpose, we were created for good.

We were not created by God and Earth isn't either c.6,000 years old or the centre of the universe. Get that into your head. We evolved from monkeys. I seriously don't consider much of it an insult to be called the great-times-100,000-grandson of a monkey. Personally I think monkeys are cool.

Remember there is only one True Church and only one True Religion.

You're just being cocky and you're begging for an infraction. I'd like to see you say that in front of a guy wearing a balaclava engraved with Arabic words holding an AK-47. You probably would be less willing to say that then.

You were born free.

Ah, the classic illusion. We aren't born free. Many factors limit what we can do. These include religion (what sort of person would turn down sex on religious grounds? Not me, anyway.), money (not everyone can afford to hop on a plane and go to Spain, the French Riviera, Italy or Florida, which are very popular tourist destinations for Europeans) and where you live (do you live in China and you want to use Google? I'd suggest you move).

God gave us many warning , but at the end we will do what we please.

God doesn't cause earthquakes because he's pissed off with mankind. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, famines, hurricanes, cyclones, typhoons, floods, tornadoes - all these happened way before mankind lifted its arms off the ground and started walking upright.

Its interesting that you bring up the Taliban and the fact they are fighting for the cause of their religion and this where I say your wrong.

Look at this, but the Taliban is like any culture that is fighting against what they see as a foreign threat to what they see as freedom, not just to their religion but rather way of life, politics, culture, economy, etc.

Tell me this, but how would you feel if a foreign invading force tried to come into your country even to the point of trying to change the way your society operate or freedoms? I'm sure like anybody you wouldn't stand for it. In fact this why the Taliban like Al Qaeda are seen as freedom fighters.

I didn't consider the Taliban as freedom fighters. What they did while they held power in Afghanistan was probably the opposite of freedom. I wouldn't call oppressing people because they didn't follow the right religion or because they weren't born with (ah-hem) distinctive parts of the male anatomy. I'm Irish, I know what it's like for your country to be oppressed by a foreign power (i.e. Britain), and I did consider those who fought for Irish independence as freedom fighters. But I don't consider the IRA as freedom fighters, I prefer freedom through diplomatic and democratic means. Then again, we did manage to force Britain into a stalemate in 1921 and we managed to gain independence. But back then the only way a country could make itself heard was through violent means.

 

[Danoff]

You're just being cocky and you're begging for an infraction. I'd like to see you say that in front of a guy wearing a balaclava engraved with Arabic words holding an AK-47. You probably would be less willing to say that then.

Does that prove anything besides that he might not want to get killed?

Ah, the classic illusion. We aren't born free. Many factors limit what we can do. These include religion (what sort of person would turn down sex on religious grounds? Not me, anyway.), money (not everyone can afford to hop on a plane and go to Spain, the French Riviera, Italy or Florida, which are very popular tourist destinations for Europeans) and where you live (do you live in China and you want to use Google? I'd suggest you move).

Lack of money is not a lack of freedom. It's a lack of ability - specifically - the ability to convince others to give you goods and services. Freedom is simply the ability to follow your own will - not the ability to coerce others. Religion and governments do limit your ability to follow your own will, and so they restrict freedom (though strictly speaking religion is voluntary, so it doesn't count). But the notion that you're born free is that until others start holding you down, you're free to follow your own will. On day one, nobody has forced you to do anything.

 

[Interpol-007]

Interpol... WTH?

There is nothing free about organized religion - both literally and figuratively. God comes along with a whole book full of rules. You become religious in part so you can pretend you're not free, not to become free.

I love, too, that you follow up your proof of freedom with the statement "you have to work". Beautiful irony.

Read this comment.

We were not created by God and Earth isn't either c.6,000 years old or the centre of the universe. Get that into your head. We evolved from monkeys. I seriously don't consider much of it an insult to be called the great-times-100,000-grandson of a monkey. Personally I think monkeys are cool.


You're just being cocky and you're begging for an infraction. I'd like to see you say that in front of a guy wearing a balaclava engraved with Arabic words holding an AK-47. You probably would be less willing to say that then.

Interpol-007
Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.
Here comes the freedom to choose. I will fight for my life on this one
Even if I have to killed the arab with the AK-47. I hope I'll never be on that position.

Ah, the classic illusion. We aren't born free. Many factors limit what we can do. These include religion (what sort of person would turn down sex on religious grounds? Not me, anyway.), money (not everyone can afford to hop on a plane and go to Spain, the French Riviera, Italy or Florida, which are very popular tourist destinations for Europeans) and where you live (do you live in China and you want to use Google? I'd suggest you move).

Interpol-007
This is a different kind of freedom you are seeking. If you really want to visit all this place, the only person that might be stoping you is you.
Read the comment on top, that guy doesn't want this type of freedom.
There will be obstacles in your path, but if you really want it you will get it.

I agree with you on this one. If you are born in certain places on earth you will have less opportunities. Why are poor countries poor?
Why some people don't want you to succeed?


God doesn't cause earthquakes because he's pissed off with mankind. Earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, famines, hurricanes, cyclones, typhoons, floods, tornadoes - all these happened way before mankind lifted its arms off the ground and started walking upright.

Interpol-007
I'm sorry i didn't make myself clear on this one.
I meant his teachings.

I didn't consider the Taliban as freedom fighters. What they did while they held power in Afghanistan was probably the opposite of freedom. I wouldn't call oppressing people because they didn't follow the right religion or because they weren't born with (ah-hem) distinctive parts of the male anatomy. I'm Irish, I know what it's like for your country to be oppressed by a foreign power (i.e. Britain), and I did consider those who fought for Irish independence as freedom fighters. But I don't consider the IRA as freedom fighters, I prefer freedom through diplomatic and democratic means. Then again, we did manage to force Britain into a stalemate in 1921 and we managed to gain independence. But back then the only way a country could make itself heard was through violent means.

oops i did some mistakes.
I bold my name and responses.

 

[Interpol-007]

1) Most major religions say that. Prove which one is right.

2) If there really is only one True Church and only one True Religion, then the odds are astronomically huge against human beings actually discovering that single Truth.

The one and only Catholic Church Founded by God.

 

[Public'sTwin]

The one and only Catholic Church Founded by God.

God didn't found anything, I'm afraid.

 

[Interpol-007]

God didn't found anything, I'm afraid.

Ok, Jesus did...

 

[Philly]

I'd say Paul...

We talked about this a bit in my Poli Sci class. We decided that freedom is the ability to achieve self-determination. Are we free? No. I feel pretty bound up by laws, social standards and economic opportunities. A lot of what I do is driven by necessity. And necessity is the anti-freedom. If I have to spend all night working on homework in order to get the degree that I need to pursue the career that I chose freely, is that really all that free?

I'm all for giving up some freedoms to achieve order and security. That's the whole idea behind government. I for sure want to know that I'm safe from some goof-ball coming in and messing things up for me.

 

[Famine]

The one and only Catholic Church Founded by God.

Good job you weren't born/brought up in a region where Catholicism isn't permitted or observed, or you might not know that it's the only true religion, eh?

Where's the freedom for these people then? People who are unaware, through lack of education or through enforced zealotism of other religion, that to be free they must be Catholic?

 

[Azuremen]

The one and only Catholic Church Founded by God.

As a religious institution, I can't think of one more hypocritical in its history.

Besides, Jesus is God, thanks to the rather peculiar notion of the Trinity. Not to mention the other large systems of Faith that have nearly as many followers as Catholicism, such as Islam. I highly doubt the Truth would be hidden in such a convoluted belief system, in which a being that knows all gives us freewill and then asks as to have faith that he had his only son martyred to save us all. Provided we get some water tossed on as. Besides, how can one have freedom of choice if a being knows what all those choices will be?