Does not make sense to use a controller

  • Thread starter mpcp27
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Controllers are much more easier to buy and use since they are cheaper and don't require much settings. It is all about accessibility.

Obviously, the Wheel is generally better but like what people have said before, people have been showing that they can still compete at the highest level just by using a Controller, it is just much harder.

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It's kinda like in other games.

In Pokemon, it is Ideal to compete with Perfect IV Pokemon. I don't due to my attachment with my Pokemon and going for IVs take too long for me. I'm at a disadvantage but I'm able to find ways to still perform well.

Mario Karts ideal is to use Super Heavyweights (150cc and Time Trials) or Super Lightweights (200cc) but there are many beast racers using the complete opposite which is harder, but is not impossible.

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While it may not be Ideal to use a Controller. It is much more easier to access for players and if they put a lot of effort, they can still be up there with the best 👍
 
Now I agree, having a wheel does give a player more precise driving and a smoother driving line, as well as controlled throttle and braking. But as many have said, there are PLENTY of DS3 users who can give wheel users a run for their money. One of whom I know @TNR_KING_FILO guy is a DS3 user but can run with some fast wheel users.

Just like @RESHIRAM5 said
RESHIRAM5
people have been showing that they can still compete at the highest level just by using a Controller, it is just much harder.
Click to expand...
It's just trickier and a little more tedious trying to perfect your driving line on a DS3 than a wheel. but both users can be very fast.
 
Luke
I thought a controller was 5 seconds slower?
Click to expand...
I use this for reference: http://www.mygranturismo.net/

You can see all the GT5 TT's there and some were won outright by controller and most have at least a few controller users in the top 100. The only one I think you'll find with a 5 second difference is this one at the full Nurb: http://www.mygranturismo.net/rankings.php?sec=3&board=110 Then you can find others like this where a controller user finished 4th (using the pad no less), only 4/10ths out.

I was convinced in an earlier discussion of a similar vein that most really good and dedicated players gravitate to a wheel eventually, which I believe goes a long way to having wheels dominate most TT's. If most of the best players are using a wheel, it stands to reason most of the top finishers will be wheel users.

My best guess is that a wheel is worth 0-1.0 seconds on a typical circuit, given identical skill levels and identical effort. Some track/car combos benefit the controller more than others.
 
I agree that using a controller is harder, and it may put you at a slight disadvantage depending on the circumstances, but it's still possible to be competitive.

2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: London 12 Hour Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: Willow Springs Test Weekend Combined Results

More examples in my signature. I'm not trying to say I'm the best there ever was. I'm just trying to say that although on a controller, I've still managed to be competitive in the races and time trials I participate in. There are numerous people out there on a DS3 who are faster than me.

Point: Harder? Yes. Worth trying? Depends. Possible to be competitive? Oh yes, very possible.
 
Thank You @Manasseh257NSX

No matter how had you try a DS3 will always be slower, at least on Gran Turismo. This is more than likely to help support the GT Academy event held every year. GT Academy is looking for drivers who drive with a wheel and not with a controller. Why? You don't drive with analogue sticks in real life etc.

In the world of GT6 you will only notice a massive difference in pace between DS3 vs Wheel in Tuning Prohibited Events. (I may cause an argument here) This is because Camber does not help the car turn as intended in real life. In GT6 It has a completely opposite affect on the car. A good example of this is setting a lap time on a circuit where their are predominantly fast left/right complexes i.e. Suzuka or Spa in completely stock Nissan Zytek Z11SN Greaves Motorsport '13. Then use a completely stock Nissan GT-R NISMO '14. The lap time delta between DS3 vs Wheel on the Nissan GT-R NISMO '14 will be far closer compared to the Nissan Zytek Z11SN Greaves Motorsport '13 as the Zytek has a front camber angle of 4.0 degrees. The GT-R NISMO has a front camber angle of 1.4 degrees.
  • The effect this has using a wheel is very minimal as once after you can carry on turning the wheel to maximise the car's cornering grip
  • The effect this has using a DS3 is great, and increases by the total degrees of camber used. After initiating the turn you will hit a barrier where you will not turn any more, thus resulting in either you releasing the accelerator to hit the apex of a turn or taking less speed into the corner in order to hit the apex.
In events where Tuning is NOT Prohibited always reduce front camber to 0.0 this will immediately reduce the difference of DS3 vs Wheel. Tuning can greatly swing the chances of being faster on an DS3 however there are certain circumstances where you will see a difference.
Drivetrain can influence the effect but it can mainly be simplified down to the car's weight distribution. Cars which drastically understeer (54/46) like the GT-R NISMO GT3 and cars which drastically oversteer (44/56) Ford GT LM Spec II Test Car i've found seem to enhance the difference of DS3 vs Wheel.

Here is a short example where i use myself as DS3 Pace and the fastest time in class Steering Wheel pace.
2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: 6 Hours of Silverstone Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
  • TNR_5zigen - 01:58.534
  • TNR_FILO - 01:59.624 +01.090
2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: 24 Hours Nürburgring Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
  • DaBomb330 - 08:12.857
  • TNR_FILO - 08:16.596 +03.739
These times where set in an competitive racing environment where there were up to 12 or more cars on track, with variable weather, nor does it show maximum Steering Wheel or DS3 pace. As a general rule where high speed sections are involved: For every 2 minutes a wheel is around 1 second faster.

A wheel maybe faster as a general rule but it will be no substitute for good old practice or driver etiquette.
I hope mine, @Whitetail's and @StigsTC's performance's in the various races in the GTP Endurance Series can prove this.

Our most recent performance: 2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: London 12 Hour Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
 
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TNR_KING_FILO
Thank You @Manasseh257NSX

No matter how had you try a DS3 will always be slower, at least on Gran Turismo. This is more than likely to help support the GT Academy event held every year. GT Academy is looking for drivers who drive with a wheel and not with a controller. Why? You don't drive with analogue sticks in real life etc.

In the world of GT6 you will only notice a massive difference in pace between DS3 vs Wheel in Tuning Prohibited Events. (I may cause an argument here) This is because Camber does not help the car turn as intended in real life. In GT6 It has a completely opposite affect on the car. A good example of this is setting a lap time on a circuit where their are predominantly fast left/right complexes i.e. Suzuka or Spa in completely stock Nissan Zytek Z11SN Greaves Motorsport '13. Then use a completely stock Nissan GT-R NISMO '14. The lap time delta between DS3 vs Wheel on the Nissan GT-R NISMO '14 will be far closer compared to the Nissan Zytek Z11SN Greaves Motorsport '13 as the Zytek has a front camber angle of 4.0 degrees. The GT-R NISMO has a front camber angle of 1.4 degrees.
  • The effect this has using a wheel is very minimal as once after you can carry on turning the wheel to maximise the car's cornering grip
  • The effect this has using a DS3 is great, and increases by the total degrees of camber used. After initiating the turn you will hit a barrier where you will not turn any more, thus resulting in either you releasing the accelerator to hit the apex of a turn or taking less speed into the corner in order to hit the apex.
In events where Tuning is NOT Prohibited always reduce front camber to 0.0 this will immediately reduce the difference of DS3 vs Wheel. Tuning can greatly swing the chances of being faster on an DS3 however there are certain circumstances where you will see a difference.
Drivetrain can influence the effect but it can mainly be simplified down to the car's weight distribution. Cars which drastically understeer (54/46) like the GT-R NISMO GT3 and cars which drastically oversteer (44/56) Ford GT LM Spec II Test Car i've found seem to enhance the difference of DS3 vs Wheel.

Here is a short example where i use myself as DS3 Pace and the fastest time in class Steering Wheel pace.
2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: 6 Hours of Silverstone Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
  • TNR_5zigen - 01:58.534
  • TNR_FILO - 01:59.624 +01.090
2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: 24 Hours Nürburgring Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
  • DaBomb330 - 08:12.857
  • TNR_FILO - 08:16.596 +03.739
These times where set in an competitive racing environment where there were up to 12 or more cars on track, with variable weather, nor does it show maximum Steering Wheel or DS3 pace. As a general rule where high speed sections are involved: For every 2 minutes a wheel is around 1 second faster.

A wheel maybe faster as a general rule but it will be no substitute for good old practice or driver etiquette.
I hope mine, @Whitetail's and @StigsTC's performance's in the various races in the GTP Endurance Series can prove this.

Our most recent performance: 2015 GTPlanet Endurance Series: London 12 Hour Classification by Driver Fastest Lap
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WOW. Filo this is the most educated I've ever seen you :D And I love how well written this is as it's also quite correct
 
Imari
the rest of us who don't have hyper-sensitive finger muscles are boned.
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No-one has finger muscles - sensitive or otherwise. Except the ones that control hair movement.
 
While I'm not in a competitive league or club as some of the others are in this thread, I can get to the competitive edge with a controller. Well, at least that's what my wheel-toting friends say. :lol:

I happen to actually prefer my DS3 over my own wheel, namely because it's "right there", as well as having experiences with past GT titles using only the Dualshock. I got to the point where I actually have superior throttle and braking control on the X and O buttons compared to the gas and brake pedals.
 
Famine
No-one has finger muscles - sensitive or otherwise. Except the ones that control hair movement.
Click to expand...

Actually there are muscles that control fingers, they are just located either in the palm or forearm (flexor digitorum, flexor hallucis, lumbricals and interossei). Which is what I assume Imari meant. I know you're a smart guy Famine, but there's no need to be pedantic about everything.
 
I just saw this thread before setting off to work, so only dropping in a quick post.

Too many people here automatically assuming the issue is the OP's fault and not the games. The OP is right, somewhere like Indy Oval is horrible on a controller in a tuning restricted race, because it will not let you turn enough, you must lift off to rotate the car. This has been covered many times before. Wheel users can simply keep the throttle mashed and turn the wheel, making the corner flat out with no problem. It doesn't matter how you approach the corner with a DS3, it will prevent you from turning as much as you want it to.
 
Famine
No-one has finger muscles - sensitive or otherwise. Except the ones that control hair movement.
Click to expand...

While you're right, I think that's the exact point at which me being more technically correct would actually have started impeding other readers from understanding the message as well. You're aware of the difference, and it still didn't stop you understanding what I meant.

I'd prefer to have a wider range of people able to understand and respond to my post, even if that comes at the sacrifice of some accuracy in a largely unrelated matter.
 
Polsixe
I ain't no doctor but ain't that pink meaty stuff in between a person's outer skin and the bone muscle tissue?
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Depends on the kind of pink. But as mentioned above, you don't have any muscles in your fingers. Finger movement is controlled by muscles further up - palm and forearm - and translated by tendons. The ones you can see moving in your wrist when you wiggle your fingers.
LeGeNd-1
Actually there are muscles that control fingers, they are just located either in the palm or forearm (flexor digitorum, flexor hallucis, lumbricals and interossei). Which is what I assume Imari meant. I know you're a smart guy Famine, but there's no need to be pedantic about everything.
Click to expand...
Imari
While you're right, I think that's the exact point at which me being more technically correct would actually have started impeding other readers from understanding the message as well. You're aware of the difference, and it still didn't stop you understanding what I meant.

I'd prefer to have a wider range of people able to understand and respond to my post, even if that comes at the sacrifice of some accuracy in a largely unrelated matter.
Click to expand...
Technically correct is the best kind of correct.
 
Does not make sense to use a controller? Then I should stop playing Gran Turismo now. Or, every copy of a Gran Turismo game that ever came out should have had a steering wheel and pedals come along with it.

Your argument does not make sense. Bear in mind, even if Gran Turismo is a driving simulator which features real-life cars and tries its best (arguably) to emulate real-life physics, it is still a video game. And video games are normally played with a controller pad or joystick, not a specially-built steering wheel.
 
mpcp27
I don't know why they bother designing the game for the controller when they handicap it's performance compared to a wheel. I mean I knew guys with wheels were faster but I never knew how much of an advantage they really had as the problem was reduced by car tuning. I could keep up with most guys. I saw the gap start to widen during gt academy when only the guys with wheels could take some sweeping turns flat out while I had to lift. It was also apparent with some new cars during the no tuning seasonal events. However it has really started to annoy when running race cars at Indy with no tuning. Guys with wheels were going flat out, while I had to lift to make the corners even with the highest controller sensitivity. I was over 4 seconds slower..that is a lot. I could handle max 1 second, but 4? That's ridiculous. Doesn't make sense to play gt6 anymore or even consider buying gt7 when they are not treating the controller in the same way as the wheel. They should at least give the controller and wheel a similar performance level so people can be competitive.
Click to expand...


I didn't know it made a difference! I learn something new each day.
That is a huge time difference and I completely agree with your post.
 
mpcp27
I don't know why they bother designing the game for the controller when they handicap it's performance compared to a wheel. I mean I knew guys with wheels were faster but I never knew how much of an advantage they really had as the problem was reduced by car tuning. I could keep up with most guys. I saw the gap start to widen during gt academy when only the guys with wheels could take some sweeping turns flat out while I had to lift. It was also apparent with some new cars during the no tuning seasonal events. However it has really started to annoy when running race cars at Indy with no tuning. Guys with wheels were going flat out, while I had to lift to make the corners even with the highest controller sensitivity. I was over 4 seconds slower..that is a lot. I could handle max 1 second, but 4? That's ridiculous. Doesn't make sense to play gt6 anymore or even consider buying gt7 when they are not treating the controller in the same way as the wheel. They should at least give the controller and wheel a similar performance level so people can be competitive.
Click to expand...

I was suspicious about the same thing, the seasonal event to win the tomahawk s, I barely got gold which was set at 1:02 and I noticed the fastest guy was at 55 seconds, so I watched his replay, the last corner before the finishing line he was taking the corner at 180mph, the most I could get my car to corner at for that corner was 150 to 155mph, any thing above that and my car would slide off the track. He was corning 20 percent faster than possible for me.

Listen to this now, I have a wheel and I notice my wheel allows me to corner at the same speed as my controller. By the way the stock tomahawk s cannot take that corner on willow spring at 180mph even with racing soft on my game. I concluded that not all gt6 copies are made equal so some users have a big advantage over others.
 
Grandea GTR
I'm sorry, what?
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I believe he thinks some regional copies of GT6 make you faster, I mean it could explain why you get taken out by a random Brazilian; the south american version of GT6 was probably sand blasted before being soldsold to the public :lol:
 
TNR_KING_FILO
No matter how had you try a DS3 will always be slower, at least on Gran Turismo. This is more than likely to help support the GT Academy event held every year. GT Academy is looking for drivers who drive with a wheel and not with a controller. Why? You don't drive with analogue sticks in real life etc.
Click to expand...

Rather than an Academy conspiracy I'd say that it's more than likely a consequence of a typical 900 degree wheel being over 60 times more precise than the analogue stick of a DS3:

Precision factor = (radius of wheel / radius of stick) * (rotation of wheel / rotation of stick)

For a 900 degree wheel with a radius of 130 mm, vs a 90 degree stick with a radius of 20 millimeters:

(130 / 20) * (900 / 90) = (6.5) * (10) = 65.

What this means is that moving the stick one millimeter is equivalent to moving the wheel 65 millimeters, and moving the wheel 1 millimeter is equivalent to moving the stick 1/65 millimeters. On the DS3 it's 3 centimeters from lock to lock, while on the wheel it's more than 2 meters.

In a race I rarely use more than 90 degrees steering in each direction, which is a distance of 200 millimeters. The same range on a DS3 stick would be no more than 3 millimeters.

What are the consequences? Well, to make the game playable with a DS3 there needs to be some clever algorithms working behind the scenes to interpret the input from the controller and adjust them according to the situation in the game, giving you more precision on the expense of limiting the range of your inputs. When you move the wheel all the way to the left you always get full steering lock. When you move the stick all the way to the left, you very rarely get full steering lock. Most of the times that's good for you, but there are situations when a bit more steering would make you faster around a certain corner, and that is where DS3 users are lagging behind.
 
Of course GT6 are not created all equal. There is Normal Version,15th anniversary edition, the one with the toy car....

Wait, what is this thread about again?
 
I used to be faster with a ds3, but once I had spent more time with my wheel. I started to surpass my ds3 lap times and now I use my wheel for all races, I'll never go back to a controller. It is so much more precise and throttle and braking is better controlled than with the joysticks. The only time I use the ds3 is for drifting and any rally races on snow and dirt, for me it is easier to control.
 
I'm a supporter of the logic that if it's a simulator of an kind, use the appropriate tools.
Driving > use a wheel
Flight > use a wheel or joystick or combo
Shooter > use a gun.

Even Mario-kart on the Wii is better with the tiny wheel adaptor.

For fantasy games, well you're controller is probably it

unsure what a simlualted controller should be for Leisure Suit Larry.... :D :D
 
Please don't tell that controller's can't beat wheel.I have done some fast laps with Mclaren F1 at nurburgring with CS tires
These are my videos of driving with DS3 controller
Mclaren F1


And I managed to cut off 7s from the leaderboard of F1 GTR Nurburgring in this forum and that was also with a DS3 and with stock F1 GTR ofcourse


And my lap at nurburgring with F1 GTR stock is 6:10.962.
 
You've "discovered the wheel" to say something...

The steering wheels have a larger turning radius than the controllers, its that simple... Which means they have more steering capacity and less understeer problems which can cause a huge loss in laptimes. This is known since GT5 and they havent bothered to fix it.

I suppose they made it like that because otherwise probably a controller would steer too violently and too fast, thats my guess, because I dont think they did it on purpose to screw the controller players.
But they should have the option to have the same turning radius as the wheels, at least to have the option and enable/disable it... FFS KAZ!

Try Apricot Hill for example, which has plento of fast corners and its the kind of track in which the controllers suffer more... you'll see. You can easily do 3-4 seconds faster laps with a wheel.

TNR_KING_FILO
In events where Tuning is NOT Prohibited always reduce front camber to 0.0 this will immediately reduce the difference of DS3 vs Wheel. Tuning can greatly swing the chances of being faster on an DS3 however there are certain circumstances where you will see a difference.
Click to expand...
To front camber add also rear camber, front toe and rear toe. All set to zero, instead of the ridiculous values that come standard, and are there to produce stupid understeer - And I suppose that is for making the non-skilled drivers happy. Those non-skilled drivers that can't control a tailhappy car at all and want all the cars to be rear planted on the ground like they are on rails... Funny.
 
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GT6 is one of the few simulators which is optimised well for a DS3.Else how could I do 6:10 with GTR on nurburgring,6:53 with F1 SH,7:07 with F1 CS,2:24 with F1 at Spa,2:10 with F1 GTR spa,2:25 with MP4-12c spa,2:27 with Veyron.
And I don't use any tunes to make any car handle well except an enzo or veyron as they need some tune to reduce some understeer.
 

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