Drivers From a Certain Country...

[war_ops_84]

Let’s try an exercise, shall we?

Let’s say... we change “person from a certain country” by “person of a certain color”.
Does it sound wrong?
Yep!
Don’t do it, please.

And... “in the lower ranks”.
There’s a better explanation there. LOWER RANK.

In other words, the only way you can make my position sound bad is by totally changing it.

 

[Nando deBem]

In other words, the only way you can make my position sound bad is by totally changing it.

Totally, "totally".

 

[war_ops_84]

Irony.

Only if you believe there is an equivalence between racism and driving dirty on a video game.

Now I understand! He just wanted to make us talk about it, so we’d say names and see that’s all in our heads!





We can do this all day... but for this thread’s purpose, just change “racism” to “prejudice”.

Sometimes prejudice is rational. For example, parents tell their children to be wary of strangers despite the fact that most strangers pose no danger to their children.

 

[Woodybobs]

Only if you believe there is an equivalence between racism and driving dirty on a video game.

Are you being serious? You are literally throwing around inflammatory accusations without concrete evidence to back them up.

 

[war_ops_84]

Americans? Yeah, it's always Americans. Every dirty driver I've ever met is an American.

It's probably cultural, yes, like they think ramming you off the road is free speech - they'd probably shoot you if they could and claim it was a second amendment right. Either that or they just can't drive - they just have pointless straight roads out in the country, and dumb grids in the city. And their speed limits are really low, like 55mph or some rubbish. No wonder all their motorsports are just like drive straight for 440 yards (and they can't even do that without dying, so now it's 1,000 feet), or just drive at 200mph and go left a bit for four hours until everyone else crashes.


See how that works? Yeah, don't be that guy.


Oh, all of the above is really quite obviously sarcasm, but just in case...

I'm not being "that guy" because my views are based on repeated experiences instead of made up stories.

 

[Nando deBem]

Sometimes prejudice is rational. For example, parents tell their children to be wary of strangers despite the fact that most strangers pose no danger to their children.

Dude... not even close. A kid can't understand things like you can, but if you want to run by the same standards they run, feel free to and be happy pooping in your pants.

 

[John Crellin]

Sometimes prejudice is rational. For example, parents tell their children to be wary of strangers despite the fact that most strangers pose no danger to their children.

But "stranger" doesn't single out any one group of people. It would not be rational to say "do no talk to people from ______ country"

Prejudice literally means "pre-judge" and to do so based on ones nationality is the erroneous part because it leads people to judge others based on their flag not their actual behavior. This is dangerous if you don't have supporting evidence.

 

[war_ops_84]

Are you being serious? You are literally throwing around inflammatory accusations without concrete evidence to back them up.

Okay, I'll try to make this as simple as possible.

On a scale of one to ten, how evil do you think racism is?

Now, same question for driving dirty in a video game.

Totally, "totally".

You changed my position on a fundamental level. Race and culture are not the same thing. I don't even believe in the concept of race.

Unless you have stats collected by PD for all races, your experiences are anecdotal therefore useless in drawing any sort of conclusion like the one you are trying to make. That doesn't mean YOU can't use that information in making your own decisions, but it is effectively meaningless for anyone else.

I agree. Yet I'm not the only one who feels this way.

 

[Woodybobs]

What are you going on about? I haven't mentioned racism. I'm talking about concrete evidence. You have none.

 

[John Crellin]

You changed my position on a fundamental level. Race and culture are not the same thing. I don't even believe in the concept of race.

Race is a totally made up set of rules that discriminate against groups of people for hereditary reasons.

 

[jubeiiiii246]

This is why I love GT Planet

 

[Nando deBem]

You changed my position on a fundamental level. Race and culture are not the same thing. I don't even believe in the concept of race.

I didn't mention race. I said color.
Whatever... I'm tired of these threads already. I'll just ignore them from now on.

 

[war_ops_84]

Every sport Mode race I enter I’m either the only Brazilian or there are one or two more... majority is from USA...
I met a lot of bad and dirty drivers, some with nasty or racist comments about me or my country (can you guess where they are from?) but I kept on racing...

There are 995K player in the Americas server (according to jasonguernsey.net)
708k are from United States
105K are from Brasil
100K from Canada
And the rest from all the other countries...

Are you still going to cry and blame your lack of hability to play and evolve on other players and their country flags or will you man up and play the same game we all play against the same player we all play being good or bad?!

I'm not going to ignore my repeated experiences just so I can be politically correct.

Present the data...otherwise, this thread serves no purpose other than providing a place for people to air out their prejudices.

If you are truly interested in discussing the potential differences in driver etiquette between nationalities you need evidence to back it up, otherwise its just anecdotal at best and nowhere near intellectually rigorous enough to constitute informed debate.

This is an internet forum, not a scientific journal. I'm just giving my opinion.

It's just confirmation bias. You have a preconceived notion, so your focus is on that for evidence that it's true.

In the NA region people talk about Brazilian drivers, but I've seen just as many dirty U.S. and Canadian drivers. The idea that an entire country of people race in a more negative way is in your mind, nothing else. It's not a good road to go down.

The notion was not "preconceived" at all. It was formed after months of repeated experiences. And I never said or implied that an "entire country" races in a more negative way. I said ON AVERAGE there are more dirty drivers from that country.

Dude... not even close. A kid can't understand things like you can, but if you want to run by the same standards they run, feel free to and be happy pooping in your pants.

My only point was that sometimes prejudice can be rational because you seemed to imply that prejudice is categorically bad.

But "stranger" doesn't single out any one group of people. It would not be rational to say "do no talk to people from ______ country"

Prejudice literally means "pre-judge" and to do so based on ones nationality is the erroneous part because it leads people to judge others based on their flag not their actual behavior. This is dangerous if you don't have supporting evidence.

If you visited Saudi Arabia, would you go around telling strangers how much you object to that country's treatment of women? Or would you just assume that such opinions wouldn't be welcomed by most people?

What are you going on about? I haven't mentioned racism. I'm talking about concrete evidence. You have none.

You said my comment was ironic. It's only ironic if you think accusations of racism are somehow equivalent to accusations of driving dirty in a video game.

Put simply, accusing someone of racism is far more "inflammatory" than accusing someone of not playing a video game properly. How is that not obvious to you?

I didn't mention race. I said color.
Whatever... I'm tired of these threads already. I'll just ignore them from now on.

Race and color are basically the same thing. But either way, you had to change my position on a fundamental level in order to make it look bad. If you addressed my actual position, then it doesn't look so bad. I mean, are you denying that distinct cultures exist? Or that they tend to produce common patterns of behavior and thought? If I said Americans tend to value gun rights more than other cultures, would that be a problem? If I said Canadians tend to put the word "eh" at the end of sentences, would you be offended? As long as I acknowledge that such statements do not apply to ALL Americans/Canadians, then what's the problem my dude?

 

[_ApexPredator]

My only point was that sometimes prejudice can be rational

and everyone else's point is that in this case, it's irrational. I've been scumbagged by people of all ages and nationality, and I've had really, really good, clean, fair races with loads of people from the country's coming under fire in this ridiculous thread - so it's nonsense. It's confirmation bias in full effect.

I said ON AVERAGE there are more dirty drivers from that country.

Based on what? Where are your figures?

I'm just giving my opinion.

Oh right. So in that case, it doesn't seem rational to me.

 

[John Crellin]

If you visited Saudi Arabia, would you go around telling strangers how much you object to that country's treatment of women? Or would you just assume that such opinions wouldn't be welcomed by most people?

well considering that would be obnoxious, probably not. But would I be afraid to express my opinion given the right context? No.

My guess is that most Saudis actually agree that their country treats women poorly (considering half of them are women themselves, and a large progressive faction of men also live there) but thats not the point!

The problem here is not that your being prejudicial, its that the conclusion you are drawing will lead to prejudicial decision making. This conclusion is supported by a subjective view point and has not been corroborated by objective fact. If it is supported as such, then prove it. Otherwise, you're just ranting about Brazillians and that doesnt come across as a genuine interest in cultural nuance.

 

[tofuhero]

The notion was not "preconceived" at all. It was formed after months of repeated experiences. And I never said or implied that an "entire country" races in a more negative way. I said ON AVERAGE there are more dirty drivers from that country.

It doesn't have to be preconceived as in, before you started playing GT Sport. It can be as simple as someone experiencing a couple bad drivers online from a country, then they talk to some others and they say, "yeah those drivers from X country seem dirty" and next thing you know there's this group bias against that country. When someone see another dirty driver from the same country, it just confirms their previous suspicion, while ignoring the drivers from other countries that are dirty. That's how I think a lot of this community bias started. People enable each others' negative attitudes and prejudices towards other groups and strengthen it.

 

[jubeiiiii246]

Lock this thread, it's becoming too political. This is GT Planet not Political Planet.

 

[war_ops_84]

and everyone else's point is that in this case, it's irrational.

Perhaps it is irrational. I'm open to the possibility that I may be wrong. But are you open to the possibility that I may be right?

I've been scumbagged by people of all ages and nationality, and I've had really, really good, clean, fair races with loads of people from the country's coming under fire in this ridiculous thread

I already said as much in my OP. I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself.

...so it's nonsense. It's confirmation bias in full effect.

Maybe it is. Or maybe it's entirely justified by my repeated experiences. One thing I can say for sure is that I never came into GTS with any biases towards another country.

Based on what? Where are your figures?

I don't have any. It's just my opinion based on my personal experiences.

Oh right. So in that case, it doesn't seem rational to me.

That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

well considering that would be obnoxious, probably not. But would I be afraid to express my opinion given the right context? No.

My guess is that most Saudis actually agree that their country treats women poorly (considering half of them are women themselves, and a large progressive faction of men also live there) but thats not the point!

The problem here is not that your being prejudicial, its that the conclusion you are drawing will lead to prejudicial decision making. This conclusion is supported by a subjective view point and has not been corroborated by objective fact. If it is supported as such, then prove it. Otherwise, you're just ranting about Brazillians and that doesnt come across as a genuine interest in cultural nuance.

But it's just a guess. And because you do not know the answer, you must make an assumption about what the average Saudi believes. You have no idea if they'll be offended or if they will agree, so you err on the side of caution based on your generalized understanding of their culture. That doesn't mean you don't allow for nuance or that you're being unfair. It just means you're making the best decision given your imperfect knowledge. That's fundamentally no different than what I'm doing. And if I were "ranting" about someone, you'd know it.

It doesn't have to be preconceived as in, before you started playing GT Sport. It can be as simple as someone experiencing a couple bad drivers online from a country, then they talk to some others and they say, "yeah those drivers from X country seem dirty" and next thing you know there's this group bias against that country. When someone see another dirty driver from the same country, it just confirms their previous suspicion, while ignoring the drivers from other countries that are dirty. That's how I think a lot of this community bias started. People enable each others' negative attitudes and prejudices towards other groups and strengthen it.

If the notion materialized AFTER my repeated experiences, then it cannot be preconceived by definition. It may be irrational or unfair, but it certainly wasn't preconceived.

Lock this thread, it's becoming too political. This is GT Planet not Political Planet.

Or you could just ignore the thread instead of trying to censor other posters.

 

[Woodybobs]

@war_ops_84 It's ironic because you can't see the contradiction between these two statements.

the most aggressive, dirty drivers are represented disproportionately by a certain country?

Please don't throw around inflammatory accusations like that without concrete proof to back them up

Come on, man.

 

[Nando deBem]

"I don't even believe in the concept of race."
"Race and color are basically the same thing."

A certain someone, who shall remain unnamed, doesn't know what to believe anymore. Not even colors.

 

[war_ops_84]

@war_ops_84 It's ironic because you can't see the contradiction between these two statements.



Come on, man.

If you cannot see the obvious difference between accusing someone of being racist and accusing someone of playing a video game the wrong way, then there is nothing I can say that will make you understand.

 

[_ApexPredator]

But are you open to the possibility that I may be right?

Right that what? Drivers from one country are statistically more likely to cause an incident than drivers from another? Perhaps, but without any data it's just your opinion, and I certainly haven't noticed any particular nation being worse than another, so, from here it looks pretty strange.

I already said as much in my OP. I don't know why I have to keep repeating myself.

Well, the whole thread is about "Drivers from a certain country" - maybe that has something to do with it?

That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion.

RE: this whole thread looking a little prejudiced - it's not really my opinion, you haven't said anything to suggest it's anything other than that.

 

[war_ops_84]

"I don't even believe in the concept of race."
"Race and color are basically the same thing."

A certain someone, who shall remain unnamed, doesn't know what to believe anymore. Not even colors.

As a concept, race is based almost exclusively on skin color, which is precisely why I reject the legitimacy of that concept. There is no contradiction there.

 

[jubeiiiii246]

As a concept, race is based almost exclusively on skin color, which is precisely why I reject the legitimacy of that concept. There is no contradiction there.

So my Race is Hispanic but my skin color is white. What are you trying to say?

 

[war_ops_84]

Right that what? Drivers from one country are statistically more likely to cause an incident than drivers from another? Perhaps, but without any data it's just your opinion, and I certainly haven't noticed any particular nation being worse than another, so, from here it looks pretty strange.

Yes, it's just my opinion. Again, not sure why I have to keep repeating myself.

Well, the whole thread is about "Drivers from a certain country" - maybe that has something to do with it?

I clarified what I meant by that in the opening post. I specifically said that my generalization does not apply to everyone from that country. I also said that dirty drivers come from every country. It seems like the only way my critics can come at me is by ignoring what I actually said.

RE: this whole thread looking a little prejudiced - it's not really my opinion, you haven't said anything to suggest it's anything other than that.

As I already said, sometimes prejudice can be rational. And my prejudice is based on my repeated experiences. You think I'm being irrational. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine.

 

[_ApexPredator]

As a concept, race is based almost exclusively on skin color,

Is it?

 

[war_ops_84]

So my Race is Hispanic but my skin color is white. What are you trying to say?

I'm saying that I don't believe in the legitimacy of the concept of race. Genetically speaking, there are no "blacks" or "whites" or "Hispanics". There are only Homo Sapiens. That said, humans also have culture, which is distinct from the concept of race. A "white" man and a "black" man can belong to the same culture, for example.

 

[yas]

Is it? No.

 

[Nando deBem]

Yes, it's just my opinion. Again, not sure why I have to keep repeating myself.



I clarified what I meant by that in the opening post. I specifically said that my generalization does not apply to everyone from that country. I also said that dirty drivers come from every country. It seems like the only way my critics can come at me is by ignoring what I actually said.



As I already said, sometimes prejudice can be rational. And my prejudice is based on my repeated experiences. You think I'm being irrational. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to mine.

I don't care if your prejudice is rational or not. This whole "it's just my opinion, so you swallow it, because I said so"... feels wrong. If you understand it is prejudice, maybe you should be doing something about it, right?

 

[war_ops_84]

Is it?

Of course. Two of the main racial classes are literally colors (white and black).

I don't care if your prejudice is rational or not.

Why not?

This whole "it's just my opinion, so you swallow it, because I said so"...

Except I never said that.

...feels wrong. If you understand it is prejudice, maybe you should be doing something about it, right?

If the prejudice is rational, why would I need to do something about it?