Drivers From a Certain Country...

[_ApexPredator]

What is true for a group is not neciceraly true for a individual within it or vice versa .

Exactly.
So this thread is?

 

[cleanLX]

This thread is interesting.
Interesting how the focus has changed.
I'm not racist, but I believe that stereotypes exist for good reason... Canadians are polite, Americans are wealthy, Germans are engineers, Asians are smart, French are artists, Italians are passionate, Russians are athletic... on and on it goes.
I'm Canadian, spent the first 32 years of my life in Canada, have been living in the USA for 18 years. Betting many would perceive me differently if I had a Maple Leaf under my name on this forum.
Since I believe that, I often wonder if I switched my flag in game to be Canadian... would my online racing experience change?

National pride and International competition has been with us since ... well, a long time.
I'm guessing dependent upon your National loyalties you may subconsciously race against other flags with more "enthusiasm" due to a life long exposure to international competition.

With the US flag dangling over my car (yes, I do believe everyone wants to beat the USA, be honest, when watching the Olympics, how many non American people cheer for the American to beat the "insert nationality here"... ??) I have to wonder if I might be raced a little more... ummm... friendly, with a Maple Leaf hovering...

I'm going to leave it at that.

It's a shame that these preconceptions exist... I had my perceptions of Americans prior living here... I'll admit they were not all positive... I had to move/live here to realize that the "people" are actually great...

 

[eran0004]

The equality act does not match the biological ( and true ) metric of race based on genetic sequences used by medicine to identify hereditary illnesses .

That’s not a “true metric of race”. And there are no genetic definitions of race, which is why you won’t find one in the legislation.

Acording to that act , two brothers born in different country's aren't the same " race " .

Where does it say that?

 

[KingFrog]

Exactly.
So this thread is?

Drivers from a certain country = group

That’s not a “true metric of race”. And there are no genetic definitions of race, which is why you won’t find one in the legislation.



Where does it say that?

Yes it exist , anthropologist use genetic samples to determine what gene pool you derive from . You can even solicite services that tell you what your geo racial ancestry is .

Race includes : nationality

That's where it says it .

Also discrimination is not inherently bad . I keep away from C or lower rank drivers .

 

[simsimsheree]

Does Kudosprime track penalties? It might be enlightening if they did... They already have country flag as a stat, don't they?

Personally, I think it does have to do with culture... 'Machismo' is not a word invented by other countries! When a culture can acknowledge their own biases, is it wrong to judge how that bias might affect track behavior?

Now, that's not to say that there isn't the odd Finn with machismo, or Japanese driver, or plenty of Americans. But machismo isn't as ingrained into the culture as it is in Latin countries. However, I think it is wrong to label them 'fast but aggressive'. Often, the 'fast' simply comes from spending a disproportionate time in qualy, ensuring a fairly high grid spot. But I can't count the number of times I have sat sandwiched between a couple of 'machismo' countries' drivers, and took the expedient measure of simply letting the trailing car go with little fight. I am usually rewarded by passing them BOTH later on as they tangle with each other and take themselves out!

There are times when 'aggressive' can be used against the driver wielding it, as long as you can get two of them together!

 

[Woodybobs]

Also discrimination is not inherently bad . I keep away from C or lower rank drivers .

Once again. The evidence is there for you to make an informed decision. At the very least the grading letter implies how well one can handle a car on the limit.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I find the dirtiest drivers in GTSport are all Playstation 4 owners... I'd ban 'em all.

 

[2011Z]

Considering we have drivers on this website from all three regions, it is fair to say no one knows what country you are referring to. Posts like this are generally frowned upon by the mods because it is you are being subtly racist.

How is it racist?!! Many different races make up every nation! I’m so tired of everyone pulling the Race Card in every argument!! So childish! Learn the meaning!

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I find the dirtiest drivers in GTSport are all Playstation 4 owners... I'd ban 'em all.

The only statistically correct finding I ever found in this thread

 

[simsimsheree]

IMHO, it is pretty easy to find out whether cultural biases affect track behavior. Go and find a room hosted by the dirty country of your choice, populated mostly by drivers from that country. Spectate a few races. Look for behavior that you would consider against the rules that YOU (and others of your ilk!) would consider clean.

Now go to a few races of your own country, hosted by drivers from your country. Any cleaner?

Bias confirmed (or disproven)!

 

[Nando deBem]

IMHO, it is pretty easy to find out whether cultural biases affect track behavior. Go and find a room hosted by the dirty country of your choice, populated mostly by drivers from that country. Spectate a few races. Look for behavior that you would consider against the rules that YOU (and others of your ilk!) would consider clean.

Now go to a few races of your own country, hosted by drivers from your country. Any cleaner?

Bias confirmed (or disproven)!

So lobby rooms created with arbitrary rules that don’t abide to any required standards is the way to do a controlled measurement of behaviors based on nationality?

Everybody here cares too much about those little flags. Brazil is filled with people from Germany, Italy, France... people from a lot of different places in Africa... The biggest Japanese community outside Japan is in Brazil. Tons of Chinese people there! And a lot os South Americans too...

I’ll buy some popcorn and watch you try figure it out what results to throw away so it builds your case.

And if you think the Latin culture owns the Machismo, I could also argue that based in the USA demographics... the USA is kind of the new owner then. Have you checked how many Latin people live in America? Or... how many immigrants and sons and grandsons of immigrants live there? Same in Canada. Tons of different cultures in the same city.

Again, people here care too much about the flag.

 

[KingFrog]

So lobby rooms created with arbitrary rules that don’t abide to any required standards is the way to do a controlled measurement of behaviors based on nationality?

Everybody here cares too much about those little flags. Brazil is filled with people from Germany, Italy, France... people from a lot of different places in Africa... The biggest Japanese community outside Japan is in Brazil. Tons of Chinese people there! And a lot os South Americans too...

I’ll buy some popcorn and watch you try figure it out what results to throw away so it builds your case.

And if you think the Latin culture owns the Machismo, I could also argue that based in the USA demographics... the USA is kind of the new owner then. Have you checked how many Latin people live in America? Or... how many immigrants and sons and grandsons of immigrants live there? Same in Canada. Tons of different cultures in the same city.

Again, people here care too much about the flag.

You just proved my point , nationality does not represent Race .I stated that a while back . Not every country is homogeneous and this it's not racist to criticize a country as a group .

 

[Nando deBem]

You just proved my point , nationality does not represent Race .I stated that a while back . Not every country is homogeneous and this it's not racist to criticize a country as a group .

Edit: this is for everybody criticizing other cultures.

Oh man... Do you think you can get an homogeneous behavior pattern by a country's name? Not only it doesn't represente one race, as it also doesn't represent one culture. Brazil has over 220 million people living there. All sorts of different backgrounds. From desert like landscapes to dense rain forests. From European, to Asian, to Africans to Natives... All of them with really different cultural backgrounds. People playing guitar, cello, pandeiro and berimbau. Fighting Judo, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Capoeira, Wrestling... People killing trees and hugging trees. We're kind of a mess, but really complex, as any other country. So yep... it freaks me out when someone tries to say one adjetive that defines my whole country.

And about criticizing others' cultures based on your view and no other data (and if you have data, you should still try not to create a whole fuzz about it):
Don't. Unless someone from said culture explicitly ask you about it. You don't do that to people you don't know. Don't do it to me.

Next time, if you still want to understand others' culture, try asking them directly; Not pointing fingers to us, talking to everybody but us.

I could talk for days about my country. A lot of bad things. A LOT! But so many great things, you won't be able to reduce my country to one word never again in your life. Feel free to ask.

 

[Woodybobs]

IMHO, it is pretty easy to find out whether cultural biases affect track behavior. Go and find a room hosted by the dirty country of your choice, populated mostly by drivers from that country. Spectate a few races. Look for behavior that you would consider against the rules that YOU (and others of your ilk!) would consider clean.

Now go to a few races of your own country, hosted by drivers from your country. Any cleaner?

Bias confirmed (or disproven)!

That depends what you mean by easy. One would have to watch a lot of races to produce any meaningful results.

It's likely that some cultures would be shown to have more dirty/overly aggressive drivers than others. However, the numbers would still be so small that it would be inaccurate to make any judgements of the cultures as a group. If we were to say that 1% of drivers are inconsiderate (I'm making the numbers up), then the cultures with the most dirty drivers would likely get a figure of 1.?%. The reverse would likely be true for the cultures with the most clean drivers. This is why stereotypes can be dangerous even though there is often some truth to them.

 

[Sharkart_Kun]

This thread is interesting.
Interesting how the focus has changed.
I'm not racist, but I believe that stereotypes exist for good reason... Canadians are polite, Americans are wealthy, Germans are engineers, Asians are smart, French are artists, Italians are passionate, Russians are athletic... on and on it goes.
I'm Canadian, spent the first 32 years of my life in Canada, have been living in the USA for 18 years. Betting many would perceive me differently if I had a Maple Leaf under my name on this forum.
Since I believe that, I often wonder if I switched my flag in game to be Canadian... would my online racing experience would change?

National pride and International competition has been with us since ... well, a long time.
I'm guessing dependent upon your National loyalties you may subconsciously race against other flags with more "enthusiasm" due to a life long exposure to international competition.

With the US flag dangling over my car (yes, I do believe everyone wants to beat the USA, be honest, when watching the Olympics, how many non American people cheer for the American to beat the "insert nationality here"... ??) I have to wonder if I might be raced a little more... ummm... friendly, with a Maple Leaf hovering...

I'm going to leave it at that.

It's a shame that these preconceptions exist... I had my perceptions of Americans prior living here... I'll admit they were not all positive... I had to move/live here to realize that the "people" are actually great...

Sometimes I use my girlfriend's profile to practice, and the other drivers react really badly when they see that a woman is beating them.

 

[simsimsheree]

About the only thing I'm seeing here is some desperate attempt to paint one's own country as completely devoid of anything different from any other country. How ridiculous!

As a world traveller, and immigrant to another country, I can quite definitively say that all countries are different. Some things for the better, some things for the worse. But if someone comes up to me and says something about my country of origin that is generally true (not specifically, it seems only those the most defensive about their countries true tendencies deny those exist at all), I am not so desperate to avoid any comparison that I will deny that. Whatever is true about my country as a whole, I will admit. I am not so thin skinned that I see a generalization about my country, and extrapolate that into universal condemnation of every single man woman and child in it. If a LOT of my people behave a certain way, I can admit it.

Apparently, some here cannot.

That depends what you mean by easy. One would have to watch a lot of races to produce any meaningful results.

It's likely that some cultures would be shown to have more dirty/overly aggressive drivers than others. However, the numbers would still be so small that it would be inaccurate to make any judgements of the cultures as a group. If we were to say that 1% of drivers are inconsiderate (I'm making the numbers up), then the cultures with the most dirty drivers would likely get a figure of 1.?%. The reverse would likely be true for the cultures with the most clean drivers. This is why stereotypes can be dangerous even though there is often some truth to them.

Let's be honest... If only 1% of drivers were dirty, we wouldn't have all this penalty system furor!

I suggest you actually try my suggestion out. I have. You might be quite shocked. I'm pretty sure you might up that 1% figure!

 

[Nando deBem]

About the only thing I'm seeing here is some desperate attempt to paint one's own country as completely devoid of anything different from any other country. How ridiculous!

As a world traveller, and immigrant to another country, I can quite definitively say that all countries are different. Some things for the better, some things for the worse. But if someone comes up to me and says something about my country of origin that is generally true (not specifically, it seems only those the most defensive about their countries true tendencies deny those exist at all), I am not so desperate to avoid any comparison that I will deny that. Whatever is true about my country as a whole, I will admit. I am not so thin skinned that I see a generalization about a country, and extrapolate that into universal condemnation of every single man woman and child in it. If a LOT of my people behave a certain way, I can admit it.

Apparently, some here cannot.

You can name me. And I understand a lot of Brazilians can be aggressive. That's not the point. The point is, Americans can be as aggressive as Brazilians and they have the bigger numbers, so you can't say that's a Brazilian trait.
Let's generalize (being an *** here):
How many wars have the USA been to with massive numbers of soldiers? How many wars have Brazil fought? Maybe that shows a cultural tendency for aggressiveness, don't you think? Maybe Americans are more aggressive, you know? After all, as an organized country / institution, we play soccer.

 

[Woodybobs]

Let's be honest... If only 1% of drivers were dirty, we wouldn't have all this penalty system furor!

I suggest you actually try my suggestion out. I have. You might be quite shocked. I'm pretty sure you might up that 1% figure!

As I said the numbers were fabricated for the argument. Put whatever number you like in there. The point still stands.

 

[simsimsheree]

The figure that is imaginary (until you have looked for yourself) is that decimal point change. You can pick whatever baseline dirty driver world average you want. What I was trying to point out is that the change from culture to culture is a hell of a sight more than a fraction of 1%.

It would be wonderful if true, but threads like this don't get started with a fraction of 1% as the cause...

 

[eran0004]

Yes it exist , anthropologist use genetic samples to determine what gene pool you derive from.

No it doesn’t. There is too much variation in the human genome that it’s impossible to make any classifications on race based on genes. Not that they didn’t try, but they soon came to the conclusion that virtually every single individual would be a unique race and with that the term lost its meaning.

What they can do is to track certain mutations to the place and time of their origin, but that’s all.

Race includes : nationality

That's where it says it .

Which means that discrimination based on nationality is a form of racial discrimination. In other aspects of race the two brothers would belong to the same category.

Also discrimination is not inherently bad . I keep away from C or lower rank drivers .

Can you see the difference between these statements?

1. “You cannot join my racing league because your DR/SR rating is not good enough.”

2. “You cannot join my racing league because you’re from [insert country here].”

 

[Alpha Cipher]

I love how there's so many arguments happening right now that have become mutually exclusive to each other

 

[Nando deBem]

Yeah... I guess I'll take a day off from GTP. I'm tired. Maybe when I come back we start talking about cars and tracks again. And only that...

 

[Woodybobs]

The figure that is imaginary (until you have looked for yourself) is that decimal point change. You can pick whatever baseline dirty driver world average you want. What I was trying to point out is that the change from culture to culture is a hell of a sight more than a fraction of 1%.

It would be wonderful if true, but threads like this don't get started with a fraction of 1% as the cause...

To obtain results with any degree of accuracy one would have to watch at least 1000 races. To rely on the stats with any degree of certainty one would have to watch many more. This is standard practice. I'm not prepared to do that.
The 1.?% is the deviation away from the base number. If you raise the base the deviation moves accordingly.

 

[KingFrog]

No it doesn’t. There is too much variation in the human genome that it’s impossible to make any classifications on race based on genes. Not that they didn’t try, but they soon came to the conclusion that virtually every single individual would be a unique race and with that the term lost its meaning.

What they can do is to track certain mutations to the place and time of their origin, but that’s all.



Which means that discrimination based on nationality is a form of racial discrimination. In other aspects of race the two brothers would belong to the same category.

" in other aspects" Your logic doesn't hold up hence you make exceptions.
If they can identify mutations among groups, you can identify race. The anthropologist can tell what race you are based on bone structure, if they couldn't, then they would be making wild assumptions on all fossils and human remains they find.

Can you see the difference between these statements?

1. “You cannot join my racing league because your DR/SR rating is not good enough.”

2. “You cannot join my racing league because you’re from [insert country here].”

Again WRONG. a lot of contest are exclusive to certain regions of the world . GT Academy hosted by Nissan excluded people based on their nationality AND place of residence ( PSN account) . I guess Nissan, polyphony and PlayStation are racist. You have no way of knowing if my exclusion is based on race or another myriad of factors. What if my league was the USA nationals. Should I let a guy from Kazakhstan race in it?

 

[SPOOLMAN]

Why are the Japanese so rude and aggressive?? I have come across at least 4 Japanese players that have been abusive and rude. I am always respectful and polite when I am playing online. I had just had one player now beat me by a hair and he sent me 3 personal messages just laughing and calling me slow. There is no need for it. I am trying not to generalize but I thought Japanese people were respectful and calm people??

 

[Woodybobs]

a lot of contest are exclusive to certain regions of the world . GT Academy hosted by Nissan excluded people based on their nationality AND place of residence ( PSN account) . I guess Nissan, polyphony and PlayStation are racist. You have no way of knowing if my exclusion is based on race or another myriad of factors. What if my league was the USA nationals. Should I let a guy from Kazakhstan race in it?

That's setting the criteria required for entry. As is setting a minimum DR/SR. To exclude players from country X because you assume they're dirty drivers is discrimination. How do you not get that?

 

[KingFrog]

That's setting the criteria required for entry. As is setting a minimum DR/SR. To exclude players from country X because you assume they're dirty drivers is discrimination. How do you not get that?

1. “You cannot join my racing league because your DR/SR rating is not good enough.”

2. “You cannot join my racing league because you’re from [insert country here].”

You are creating a straw man. I'm responding to WHAT YOU POSTED. I never assumed they were dirty drivers, nor does your theoretical premise ever mention that. Learn to argue.

Once again, discrimination is not inherently bad, if I choose to reject unhealthy food for consumption, I am discriminating against unhealthy food.

 

[Braaapone]

...not sure if this has already been covered, but can we agree that, ON AVERAGE, the most aggressive, dirty drivers are represented disproportionately by a certain country? I don't even have to name the country specifically - most people will know which one I'm referring to.

That isn't to say there aren't respectful, clean drivers from that country, or that there aren't aggressive, dirty drivers from other countries. But how many times does a driver from a certain country have to ruin your race with overly aggressive/dirty driving before you're allowed to identify that country as a source of problems?

My last race at Willow Springs was ruined on the last lap by one such driver. Drivers behind me saw the incident and agreed that I got screwed. One of the drivers who witnessed the incident said something I have to agree with: Expect it.

That is unfortunate, as I do not like to prejudge people, but I cannot help it. Every time there is a driver from that country behind me, I am more stressed than normal. And it's purely based on repeated experiences with drivers from that country. A few incidents here and there can be attributed to random factors, but incidents repeating over and over and over again constitute a pattern.

And it's not just overtly dirty driving like dive-bombing either. It's very subtle stuff that is clearly intended to put the other driver in precarious positions. For example, very gradually drifting into the other drivers space so as to create a tiny window where the smallest mistake will cause the driver to fly off the track or crash.

One question I have asked myself: Why does a certain country seemingly produce so many of these drivers? Is it cultural? Or am I just imagining things? If I am, then I'm certainly not the only one. And if I am imagining things, then why don't I imagine the same thing with any other country?

It's gotta be where they held the ghetto Olympics...that's who usually gets me...I very much dislike those "NUTS "

 

[Tristan Jones]

No it doesn’t. There is too much variation in the human genome that it’s impossible to make any classifications on race based on genes. Not that they didn’t try, but they soon came to the conclusion that virtually every single individual would be a unique race and with that the term lost its meaning.

A company by the name of "Ancestry" have identified 350 ethnic regions based on the mapping of our genome.

https://www.ancestry.com.au/dna/

I believe that would give great meaning. All for the low price of $129. Thinking I'll get it done myself now that it is much cheaper.

He's generalizing a GROUP. It's like saying men tend to be taller than women. As a group this is true. that doesn't mean EVERY MAN is taller than EVERY WOMAN. Don't make an N of one fallacy. From my experience, Brazilian drivers tend to be faster but also more aggressive. This has nothing to do with racism. It might just be the preferred driving style in that region. This is widely accepted to be a fact in soccer. Different regions of the world have different styles. calling this racist is an insult to global diversity in sport. Not every region plays the same AS A GROUP. Now assuming every individual in that group is identical is stupid, and vice versa ( individual represents the entire group).

Beat me to it! Well said.


Does it cause offense to state a fact? Usually not, but perhaps. However, if my stating a fact causes you to feel anger, is that my problem or yours? Should you not then seek to remedy your anger issues instead of censoring me to fix the problem? How is anger emotion different to offense emotion? Milo has some great lines on this topic.

 

[Nando deBem]

1. “You cannot join my racing league because your DR/SR rating is not good enough.”

2. “You cannot join my racing league because you’re from [insert country here].”

You are creating a straw man. I'm responding to WHAT YOU POSTED. I never assumed they were dirty drivers, nor does your theoretical premise ever mention that. Learn to argue.

Once again, discrimination is not inherently bad, if I choose to reject unhealthy food for consumption, I am discriminating against unhealthy food.

But saying lettuce is unhealthy without data to back it up and asking everybody to stop eating lettuce would be wrong. wouldn't you agree?

It's gotta be where they held the ghetto Olympics...that's who usually gets me...I very much dislike those "NUTS "

Sorry... ghetto Olympics?