Drop The Motorsport? - Forza 6 and onwards?

Seems I've had a change of heart, so let's go over the rules:

- This is about dropping the "Motorsport" suffix from the game title and nothing more.
- Comparisons to movie franchises that have adopted or avoided this tactic, old or new, is not on topic.
- Comparisons to other game franchises that have adopted or avoided this tactic, old or new, is not on topic.
- Comparisons can be made to motorsports as a whole.
- Keep DLC talk constrained to what's already been released. No sense speculating on next month's or April's car packs when you haven't the foggiest clue what's going to be contained within them.
- "Driving Miss Daisy" is not a valid rebuttal. That's not a rule, it's just plain silly.
- Re-read the AUP as everything within it applies here and anywhere else on GTP.

Everything aside from Point 6 covers just about everything necessary. Should I have to venture in to this thread again and close it, it won't be reopened under any circumstance.
 
As long as they stick to giving us exciting races i'm happy, as that is where GT fails nowadays.
And as @McLaren said; seeing that normal cars have motors also the name is still justified :D
 
I don't think it will make a huge difference to the player base if they drop the Motorsport, but to drop it because 'there isn't that many race cars' is a bit silly, race cars don't define motorsport, cars in general racing against each other to me is motorsport regardless of type/livery/speed/power
 
Turn 10 imo have a huge dilemma going forward...Reading forums it seems most people are sick to death of their DLC policy (Season pass, Monthly Pass or buying Single cars) They have started losing fans but im not sure they even know this as their success over the years is clearly clouding judgement

Now, kids, sit down for a while, uncle Clyde's gonna tell you how the world spins.

The world of videogaming, nowadays, is a world of big investments. You want to make a triple-A blockbuster title? You need money, then. How much? A lot of it. And you want to include loads of licensed cars, tracks and brands? Then you better have a wallet as big as Switzerland, because the holders of any patent and intellectual property you're planning to use will ask for a six-digit check at the very least.

What does that mean for the poor, relatively small developer? It means that he has to find ways to spend money that he doesn't have, hoping that the investment will pay off. Many developers had to let themselves be acquired by bigger software houses (sometimes with disastrous results, as any disgruntled fan of the Sim City series will tell you). Many other have to resort to financing. You may be familiar with the term if you have a mortgage on your house; the only difference is that your house probably didn't cost 250 million dollars, and if you don't pay it back your house is a (somewhat) solid good that the bank can repossess and put back on the market to cut losses; wherein people will finance your grandiose videogame project only if they can ensure they have a return of investment, because if they don't, they basically did something akin to taking a bunch of dollar bills and throwing them in a furnace. But those are things that someone with some expertise in the weird and inextricable world of economics would surely explain better than I can.

Where does that factor in the quality of the games you're playing, like say, FM5? It factors everywhere. Things like the DLC pricing and release model, up to what features, cars and tracks should be prioritized for inclusion in the game or outright removed to not alienate casual gamers (which, like it or not, are the big buck of the gaming industry) are decided not by mr. Greenwalt or by T10, but by a marketing office that may be internal to T10, may be a division of Microsoft Gaming, or for all I know could even be an external company. Or all of the above, working in unison to make sure the investors get back their money, T10 gets a tidy profit, everyone's happy.

And the casual gamers want to drive the latest, coolest cars there are around. They want the cool McLaren car Jeremy Clarkson drove last night on Top Gear. They don't want to be in a Le Mans car when they don't even know where Le Mans is; they don't want to drive a Group 5 Ford Capri when for them is an old chump car with ridiculous spoilers and terrible handling. They want assists to tame cars they couldn't (and wouldn't) drive in real life, because they have no actual interest in cars. For them a game's worth another. They're just in for twenty, thirty hours of fun tops. Perhaps they'll stay long enough to buy DLC, but who knows, really - is it worth, then, to develop new assets for each and every DLC, make more investments when the profits are not sure?

The truth is, we've had it too good for too long. Graphics kept going upwards in quality (and quantity of rendered objects) by leaps and bounds in the late 90s / early 2000s. Nowadays developers are working with technology that twenty minutes ago was only in the hands of NASA, or F1 teams. The costs of development have increased exponentially, and the demands of us, the gamers, did too. So, they have to play it safe, and more often than not sacrifice the happiness of their fanbase to make sure they have a return of investment and maybe, if there's time and resources left to devote to this task, make the fanbase happy the next time around.

Trust me when I tell you that when mr. Greenwalt wants to turn car lovers into gamers and gamers into car lovers, he really means it. But the problem is, the hard decisions are not made by the code monkeys and the visionaries; they're made by marketing guys who can't, don't and won't care about the 1% of the target market for their product. They're only paid to turn investment into profits and profits into investment, and that's what they'll do.

And I'm sorry if this is off-topic, but I feel that this should be brought up when someone (rightfully) asks whenever the "Motorsport" word should be part of the title of future Forza games or shouldn't.
 
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And you want to include loads of licensed cars, tracks and brands? Then you better have a wallet as big as Switzerland, because the holders of any patent and intellectual property you're planning to use will ask for a six-digit check at the very least.

I'm really not sure about this part. I can't provide any source at this time but I do remember reading how it's often car manufacturers that approach big games and pester them to include some of their cars. I really don't believe that developers have to shell out 6 digits for every single one of their car/track licences, other than some of the "special" ones like Ferarri or Porsche.
 
I'm really not sure about this part. I can't provide any source at this time but I do remember reading how it's often car manufacturers that approach big games and pester them to include some of their cars. I really don't believe that developers have to shell out 6 digits for every single one of their car/track licences, other than some of the "special" ones like Ferarri or Porsche.

It still is an enormous investment. Some manufacturers may see the benefit from being included in all the coolest games - I think Ferrari's one of those, as every gamer is a potential new Tifoso and, thus, a potential new buyer of Ferrari merchandising. And small manufacturers like Caterham probably jumped at the possibility of being featured in a game that would provide a huge boost in their visibility. And finally, there's the promotional deal with Rush that brought us the Ferrari 312T2 and the McLaren M23. A deal that no doubt benefited both parties.

But still, the cost for licensing the Top Gear Test Track alone (with logos and Stig attached) probably surpasses the development cost of the most ambitious PSX-era undertakings alone. And that's barely scratching the surface, really.
 
It still is an enormous investment. Some manufacturers may see the benefit from being included in all the coolest games - I think Ferrari's one of those, as every gamer is a potential new Tifoso and, thus, a potential new buyer of Ferrari merchandising. And small manufacturers like Caterham probably jumped at the possibility of being featured in a game that would provide a huge boost in their visibility. And finally, there's the promotional deal with Rush that brought us the Ferrari 312T2 and the McLaren M23. A deal that no doubt benefited both parties.

But still, the cost for licensing the Top Gear Test Track alone (with logos and Stig attached) probably surpasses the development cost of the most ambitious PSX-era undertakings alone. And that's barely scratching the surface, really.

That's all well and good in theory. But you lack citations and evidence.
 
So, basically, your pulling figures out of your ass.



Fixed.

I guess you must be fun at parties, and a real ladies man. The second post was speculation, on my part, on parties that may be interested to give Turn 10 a five-finger discount on licensing fees, with included a discussion as to why they should be interested to do so. You may notice that I used terms like "may see" and "probably jumped" - the only thing that's no speculation is that there was, in fact, a well-publicized cross-promotion deal between the Rush movie and Forza Motorsport 5.

The first wasn't. I could mention the fact that in my field of study, I've come up to this topic several times, but I don't like to be autoreferential. So, go forth, look at what people that work in the vg development business have to say about the recent downfall in quality and originality in new triple-A titles. What the disgruntled insiders have to tell you. I could link you to several such accounts, but I trust you with the ability to do a search on Google. And if these stories aren't enough to make you happy and satisfied on your quest for The Truth and quell your passive-aggressiveness, that's also how it worked for other fields of entertainment. Movie studios keep producing the same movie with different actors because if they try new and fail they're going to feel the loss. Music studios keep launching boybands because eight graders will buy their product. The only difference there is in videogaming is the complexity of the product you're selling.

And besides, what do you think is happening? T10 is releasing content that was in FM4 and cutting features and content because Dan Greenwalt is greedy and cartoon-like-evil, and drinks your tears for breakfast? I mean, he kinda looks like Gargamel with less hair if you're drunk, but...
 
You can hit me with as many case studies as you like but at the end of the day, in this context, it is just speculation.

I guess you must be fun at parties, and a real ladies man.

Haha sarcasm used out of context, nice 👍. and you try to call me out for my...

passive-aggressiveness

Firstly, nothing passive at all about my comment. Secondly, that's page one crap your trying to hit me with their mate! Thirdly, It honestly reads like you have some sort of complex in that section of your life, or your over compensating for some reason. Funny you should mention it though because they always tell me I'm a 'good listener' too if you get anything off your chest? :lol:

And besides, what do you think is happening? T10 is releasing content that was in FM4 and cutting features and content because Dan Greenwalt is greedy and cartoon-like-evil, and drinks your tears for breakfast? I mean, he kinda looks like Gargamel with less hair if you're drunk, but...

Jumping to conclusions, again.
 
Just had a 2 hour session online...Does Bumpar Cars from the Theme Park come under Motorsport? By far the worst racer i have ever played online and i've been playing online since 2005! Why have T10 not put any decent serious lobbies in? Everything is set up for casuals while anyone wanting to race properly have NOTHING!
 
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Welcome to every online racing game then. You want serious racing groups, start spending money towards PC sims.

That's nonsense, Toca's were not like this, PGR's which were arcade games were no where near as bad as this, GT5 was not as bad and the early Forza games were again far more playable online. Grid which was another arcade title was again no where near as bad either.
 
That's nonsense, Toca's were not like this, PGR's which were arcade games were no where near as bad as this, GT5 was not as bad and the early Forza games were again far more playable online. Grid which was another arcade title was again no where near as bad either.
There's a reason they do not rate the multi player areas of video games.

It's because everyone's experience differs & in this case, I have seen more than my share of bumper car racing in GT & PGR. So what you're bitching about now is not exclusive to Forza.
 
Many serious Forza players appear to have boycotted 5, the amount they go on about it, so you get left with plenty of early adopters going online for something to do.
 
Maybe VXR is right, but nonetheless, the multiplayer rooms of any popular game are stocked with plenty of idiots. I've played the PGR games online, NFS titles, Dirt 3, Grid, Forza Motorsport, Forza Horizon, and more. The only game in which I could reasonably expect a room of sensible drivers most of the time is Live for Speed. On the flipside, I've also always found mature players in every game if you stick it out for a while.
 
I have also had a mixed experience online sometimes. After being wrecked badly in a few races, i decided to take a more patient approach to passing, and my experience improved immediately.
 
VXR
Many serious Forza players appear to have boycotted 5, the amount they go on about it, so you get left with plenty of early adopters going online for something to do.
This. No X360 wheel support, heavy on microtransactions, much less content, expensive console...

And in the other side the game has been offered bundled everywhere with the console, even free. So along the weak physical sales is normal that the game is plagued with below-average players. The console catalogue it's still in its early age and there are not much quality alternatives to expend the time.
 
And in the other side the game has been offered bundled everywhere with the console, even free. So along the weak physical sales is normal that the game is plagued with below-average players. The console catalogue it's still in its early age and there are not much quality alternatives to expend the time.
Pretty much this. There are a lot of people new to the series because to them it 1) looks pretty, and 2) it was one of a handful of games available at launch. I guarantee a majority of these people couldn't care less when it comes to clean racing. They're probably too busy wondering where the "turbo" button is.
 
That's nonsense, Toca's were not like this, PGR's which were arcade games were no where near as bad as this, GT5 was not as bad and the early Forza games were again far more playable online. Grid which was another arcade title was again no where near as bad either.

I have run into bumper cars equally just as bad in GT, as well as Race Pro. Luckily, it's not that frequent in most of them. I tend to always be matched up with good players. Hit all good players in a weekend of drag racing last week as well.
 
If you're bothered by other people's behavior in online multiplayer, you can do something about it by helping them become better. The best way to do that is to lead by example and to encourage good behavior:
  • Thank the people who raced fair and clean
  • Apologize for any incidents you may have been involved in (even if you don't think you caused it)
  • If you think someone doesn't understand the rules - take the time to explain it to them
 
Not sure what rooms you guys have been racing in but I've seen only 1-2 people in a full room that usually purposely drive into people but by the time we get to the lobby they are dealt with. I've also might a few people online that have come over from NFS and other types of racing games and say they love Forza 5 because of how it feels and the amount of content(even compared to Forza 5 NFS is a dry on content game.).

Dropping Motorsport is just silly and would do nothing but harm the series in the end.
 
In my opinion, dropping "Motorsport" can be justified by the painful lack of motorsport related topics in Forza. Some things that come to mind:

- Realistic pit stops and related pit strategies.
- Yellow flag situations and other flags for violating track/race rules.
- Realistic AI drivers that know the racing line and behave like it, i.e. not the ones we have right now that will slam on the brakes for no apparent reason or slow down to 1 mph for every single turn.
- Longer races in career mode. Right now, most races are 2 or 3 laps which is simply too short to display qualities such as determination, consistency and stamina, which however is a big part of true motorsport.
 
You have lots of online options to make the racing a little deeper. To be honest, since the half price weekend I haven't done a race and own most of the cars I like, with Forza rewards providing plenty of money for my trackday photoshoot needs.

I've always thought career mode would be better if it was set up so you'd do seasons in a particular formula, so if you chose a hatchback as your starter car you'd enter a Group N championship and there could be control options like number boards and certain upgrades. Then if you liked it you could paint your car in an updated livery for the new season or move on to another type of championship.

As it is now, the career mode is nothing more than a chocolate box and throwaway. With the ability to create your own personal race cars, it would surely be better to pick what you like and work at it?
 
In my opinion, dropping "Motorsport" can be justified by the painful lack of motorsport related topics in Forza. Some things that come to mind:

- Realistic pit stops and related pit strategies.
- Yellow flag situations and other flags for violating track/race rules.
- Realistic AI drivers that know the racing line and behave like it, i.e. not the ones we have right now that will slam on the brakes for no apparent reason or slow down to 1 mph for every single turn.
- Longer races in career mode. Right now, most races are 2 or 3 laps which is simply too short to display qualities such as determination, consistency and stamina, which however is a big part of true motorsport.


  1. Definition of motorsport (n)
    Bing Dictionary
    • mo·tor·sport
    • [ mṓtər spàwrt ]
    1. sport of racing motorized vehicles: a sport in which participants race motor vehicles, usually around a track
 
  1. Definition of motorsport (n)
    Bing Dictionary
    • mo·tor·sport
    • [ mṓtər spàwrt ]
    1. sport of racing motorized vehicles: a sport in which participants race motor vehicles, usually around a track

Okay, so quoting something from a dictionary is easy. However in reality, how is motorsport practiced? No rules? Just bashing and trashing to get to the finish line first without respecting your opponents? Ramming your car through the first corner to get in front? Just keep going full speed through a car pile up? Race through the pit lane while your mechanics magically fix your car and pump gas in it without stopping?

No, none of that. They call it Forza Motorsport because they want it to be a simulation of the world of motorsport, but it's not. It´s an arcade game pretending to be a simulation and a dictionary entry can't do anything about that. As much as I love the Forza series of games, I would very much like it to be more like iRacing and other real simulations. If it was all optional that would be okay, then everyone can choose for themselves what they define motorsport.
 

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