E3 2011: The Parallel Paths of Forza Motorsport 4

[Spagetti69]

I already typed before reading your post.

Will do though.

 

[Bogie 19th]

I have a PM Box full of messages from this guy trying to convince himself and me that GT5's damage was better than Forza's.

Now I have heard it all.

 

[zr1chris]

you call that a 'livery editor'? Good god, how biased can you be?


Uh, what good is a tyre pressure if it can't be changed? The simple matter of the fact is, gt5 skipped the whole tyre physics thingy completely.


Yes, it was fm1. Still, i don't see much reason to add rally. Fm isn't as narrow as, say, dirt 3 or formula 1 2010, but that doesn't mean it has to spread itself thin just to do more kinds of racing. It does have autocross, though


yeah, gt5 has the most bullet points on the back, just as it has the most cars. We all know how that turned out.


Why would they? Why does pd do it, in the first place? If we're talking about fantasy cars (that's what the x2010 is), games like ridge racer do that. If yoou're asking me, if they spend less time on designing concepts and more time on designing a game, gt5 would be twice the game it is.

This!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Bogie 19th]

I can change the color of my font in MS Word, so that means MS Word is the same as Photoshop. Sweet!

 

[t.o.]

Now I have heard it all.

He tried to say that the few cars in GT5 with active aero (basically a B.S. animation that probably affects nothing) evens out with the fact that FM3's aero damage affects the car's performance and GT5's aero damage is purely cosmetic. See what I mean about illogical nonsense. This was one of the points he tried to argue. I mean you've got to be kidding me.

 

[Luminis]

Guys I'm telling you forget about debating with this guy. He will just hammer illogical non-sense to death and never acknowledge reality. I swear to you guys you're wasting your time. I already been through it with him. It's better to just ignore him. Replying to him is the TRUE definition of feeding the trolls.

Well, maybe you're right

I can change the color of my font in MS Word, so that means MS Word is the same as Photoshop. Sweet!

Bwahaha, good one 👍

He tried to say that the few cars in GT5 with active aero evens out with the fact that FM3's aero damage affects the car's performance and GT5's aero damage is purely cosmetic. See what I mean about illogical nonsense. This was one of the points he tried to argue. I mean you've got to be kidding me.

Well, he already mentioned he's so concerned about graphics, right? I won't speell it out here, but Urban Dictionary has a word for this.

 

[Bogie 19th]

So having active aero an a couple cars in GT5 equates to damage on 500 Forza cars?

Someone pass me a Tylenol.

 

[t.o.]

I know it's bad etiquette to quote and post PM's but if I could you guys jaws would drop to and through the floor. This guy's credibility, if he had any, would be COMPLETELY void and null. The fanboyism is just too much from this guy. If GT5 had a glitch where cars only had 3 wheels after 2 laps THIS dude would invent some reason why it was better this way than Forza having all 4 for the whole race.

 

[Bogie 19th]

Speaking of etiquette, I see Scaff hasn't been here since May 11th. Wonder where he went off to.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Guys forget about trying to reason and debate with saidur_ali. I have a PM Box full of messages from this guy trying to convince himself and me that GT5's damage was better than Forza's. I mean really, you can be a fanboy all you want but there comes a point where it's just embarrassing. He reached that point and then some. There's certain things that you just can't argue. And that's one of them.

Some how to him damage that looked like melted candle wax was better than damage that looks like real life. Somehow aero damage not affecting the car was perfectly fine compared to damaged aero affecting your car. The list goes on......

I never said GT5's damage was better than Forza's, just not as behind as you were trying to make out and ahead in concepts such as real-time / iterative vs specific damage models. That is what I was trying to say but you were having none of it. A car that looks like it's paint been sanded off instantly all the way round is hardly any better I'm afraid but you try and make GT5 sound to be way behind the damage engine in Forza.

About the aero damage, just was saying it is strange that aero parts can't be changed in pits but an engine can and also Forza did not simulate active aero but you said something along the lines of it not mattering, I guess it matters now that Forza 4 does it? If I mention any flaw, you will defend Forza to death, even the Microsoft wheel you defended and criticized Logitech wheels for not doing something I can't remember and also constantly make negative remarks against GT5 most of the time. I know the game you primarily play is Forza 3 and are maybe new to the simulation games market as you can't have played Forza 2 as you find anything without cockpit view unbearable as you said yourself and that is one of the reasons why you didn't like GT5 due to there being standard cars in the game. You could say I'm an embarrassing fanboy but if I am then you must be too.

No I wouldn't.

I would say I have changed the colour.
Livery to me represents logos, emblems and multitude of colours.

Even Kaz doesn't agree with you when he said that a livery editor may come in the future. He never said we already have one.

The same way if I put a sticker on my car, I would just say I put a sticker on it but at the same time I would acknowledge I changed the livery of the car to an extent.

Livery for me on a car is anything cosmetically on the external part of the car, whether it be different colours or logos or patterns.

You can only edit the livery as in writing on the car on some of the race moddable cars and but that is to a very basic extent like I mentioned about only for car numbers. No full blown livery editor is made yet as you can't change both designs and colours on all cars.

About Kaz's interview, he only said "Probably Not" before the release of the game, (Maybe something else I'm missing) and to to a large extent it is non-existant to the levels of NFS and Forza but it has very minor livery editing which can't be really classed as a full blown editor but it can do it to a limited extent like I was saying.

I think you need to get your definition of 'livery' sorted.

You can't do that in GT. Or have you been able to change a sponsor for antoher?


Tyre physics means that the game simulates how the tyre flexes, increses or lowers its pressure and so on. It has been stated numerous times that GT doesn't do this.


Mario Card outsells GT. So, that's a better game, right? Sales numbers mean relatively little if we're talking about quality.


Uh, yeah. Take a look at the G-Meter when driving the X2010. Without a G-suit, the driver would be dead after half a lap. Oh, and there are no G-Suits that can work against lateral G-forces. Totally realistic, that. If we're talking about theory, why not add other vehicles that are possible in theory?


And all of that makes the game itself better in what way? Exactly. None.


Yeah, now that is truly innovative

Here is a list of definitions for the word "Livery": Click Here

Livery is not mutually exclusive to be able to change / add sponsor names. You can change car number on race moddable cars and like I said livery editing in GT5 is to a very limited extent, not like Forza where you can do different designs and colour designs on. I'm just saying in GT5 there is a small livery editing feature, that is all like you say Shift 2 had a Gymkhana mode a wee bit of.

About tyre physics, I don't know how you say it is well documented that GT5 doesn't do that.

[GameBlog Fr] How much physics has been reworked in relation to GT5 prologue?
[KY] Characteristics and movements of tires, and suspension have been changed profoundly since the prologue. One could say that this is totally different.

About cars and not adding cars in theory, well PD have been. This is meant to be the fastest car in land, well virtually. They made the Formula GT which I guess they could work on for GT6 and create the fastest Formula open-wheel car again. The X2010 could be totally drivable if you choose a low downforce setup, even then it will be cornering extreme but you can make laptime up on the straights and humans would be able to cope. The car is not fantasy as such, but maybe drivers being able to drive it on the limit at full downforce is.

I was just talking about it being the best selling title on its exclusive platform and reviews are over 80's which is good for most games and represents a good level of quality to achieve such a score. It did not turn out too badly did it? Quite a lot of people still play it and enjoy doing so, sure it has flaws but it also has quite a lot of positives. Just would be nice if they can get leaderboards like in GT5P and maybe we will get that at the start of next month after Prologue Servers switch to GT5 primarily.

It makes the game better as it helps with the physics engine as after all if you are designing real world aero parts and using your game as simulation to do that, then it has to be pretty accurate to help. It also helps getting appreciation and links such as with Red Bull to get different challenges, such as being able to take on the current F1 world champion and also take on the WRC champion. It allows you get deals with say Top Gear first, as they have heard about you due to GT branding being so strong. If GT was a small brand then it is unlikely we would have got such good special events in the game.

Back onto Forza 4. I have been impressed with what they have shown so far. It seems they have fixed the main things that stopped me playing Forza 3, active steering seems to have been removed which is a something t.o. refused to acknowledge being even in the game. Tyre physics have been changed, didn't Dan say something along the lines of they were suprised how different it was compared to their guesses on tyre calculations and Pirelli's data and judging by the videos it looks like you can overload the tyres more easily and have a better chance of paying for a mistake as there is a limit of peak grip that before only the high HP cars could overcome more easily to spin without having a chance to control it. This should help with lap times being more realistic and not too fast. The only thing left is making the tracks a bit more accurate and it will be interesting to see if they have done this with all the real world ones that were in Forza 3.

The lighting engine looks a damn sight better than what was in Forza 3 and make the cars look more real. I will get this game but as I'm in no rush I will probably wait until the Ultimate Collection comes out with all the DLC included, and currently have many games to complete which may take me until then to finish. Sorry if I've repeated myself a lot and if you don't want to discuss anything with me then that's fine. No worries.

 

[alucard0712]

I would like read Aluccard if all the fails that have GT5 would have other racing car games ..... maybe terrible.

If 80 % of number cars are recicled from last consoles generation this isn't a problem ( Kaz make this with love for you guy ... ), if the motor sounds of most cars have a terrible experience also isn't a problem ( Kaz haven't more time, but he loves you ..) , if the most car vehicles haven't any option of modification also is not a problem ( Kaz ..... ) , if many circuits are recicled from PS2 have a terrible quality who is enough crazy for question this ( Kaz ... ) ... and many , many more ..


Be serious friend, if the rival of your favorite game must had all this fails read your opinions would be unbearable.


*** : Sorry Scaff, is clear that this post has resulted in the usual case ..

He-he

Am I ever said that I like those things in GT5 or that they are perfect? Never.

I can complain about GT5 as much as FM. (but those are mainly bad technical and design decisions)

P.S: Maybe I don't understand you correctly. English is a real problem for me because it limiting me very much. (as PS3 limit PD vision )

 

[Digitool]

I've wasted my lunch-hour at work reading this stuff... I want to thank you guys for all this entertainment! Sure is fun to read.

Oh, just one thing though, again, this isn't a comparison thread. How this thing isn't locked away yet I have no idea.

Please, though, continue, you're making my work-day fly by!

I never said GT5's damage was better than Forza's, just not as behind as you were trying to make out and ahead in concepts such as real-time / iterative vs specific damage models. That is what I was trying to say but you were having none of it. A car that looks like it's paint been sanded off instantly all the way round is hardly any better I'm afraid but you try and make GT5 sound to be way behind the damage engine in Forza.

About the aero damage, just was saying it is strange that aero parts can't be changed in pits but an engine can and also Forza did not simulate active aero but you said something along the lines of it not mattering, I guess it matters now that Forza 4 does it? If I mention any flaw, you will defend Forza to death, even the Microsoft wheel you defended and criticized Logitech wheels for not doing something I can't remember and also constantly make negative remarks against GT5 most of the time. I know the game you primarily play is Forza 3 and are maybe new to the simulation games market as you can't have played Forza 2 as you find anything without cockpit view unbearable as you said yourself and that is one of the reasons why you didn't like GT5 due to there being standard cars in the game. You could say I'm an embarrassing fanboy but if I am then you must be too.


The same way if I put a sticker on my car, I would just say I put a sticker on it but at the same time I would acknowledge I changed the livery of the car to an extent.

Livery for me on a car is anything cosmetically on the external part of the car, whether it be different colours or logos or patterns.

You can only edit the livery as in writing on the car on some of the race moddable cars and but that is to a very basic extent like I mentioned about only for car numbers. No full blown livery editor is made yet as you can't change both designs and colours on all cars.

About Kaz's interview, he only said "Probably Not" before the release of the game, (Maybe something else I'm missing) and to to a large extent it is non-existant to the levels of NFS and Forza but it has very minor livery editing which can't be really classed as a full blown editor but it can do it to a limited extent like I was saying.


Here is a list of definitions for the word "Livery": Click Here

Livery is not mutually exclusive to be able to change / add sponsor names. You can change car number on race moddable cars and like I said livery editing in GT5 is to a very limited extent, not like Forza where you can do different designs and colour designs on. I'm just saying in GT5 there is a small livery editing feature, that is all like you say Shift 2 had a Gymkhana mode a wee bit of.

About tyre physics, I don't know how you say it is well documented that GT5 doesn't do that.



About cars and not adding cars in theory, well PD have been. This is meant to be the fastest car in land, well virtually. They made the Formula GT which I guess they could work on for GT6 and create the fastest Formula open-wheel car again. The X2010 could be totally drivable if you choose a low downforce setup, even then it will be cornering extreme but you can make laptime up on the straights and humans would be able to cope. The car is not fantasy as such, but maybe drivers being able to drive it on the limit at full downforce is.

I was just talking about it being the best selling title on its exclusive platform and reviews are over 80's which is good for most games and represents a good level of quality to achieve such a score. It did not turn out too badly did it? Quite a lot of people still play it and enjoy doing so, sure it has flaws but it also has quite a lot of positives. Just would be nice if they can get leaderboards like in GT5P and maybe we will get that at the start of next month after Prologue Servers switch to GT5 primarily.

It makes the game better as it helps with the physics engine as after all if you are designing real world aero parts and using your game as simulation to do that, then it has to be pretty accurate to help. It also helps getting appreciation and links such as with Red Bull to get different challenges, such as being able to take on the current F1 world champion and also take on the WRC champion. It allows you get deals with say Top Gear first, as they have heard about you due to GT branding being so strong. If GT was a small brand then it is unlikely we would have got such good special events in the game.

Back onto Forza 4. I have been impressed with what they have shown so far. It seems they have fixed the main things that stopped me playing Forza 3, active steering seems to have been removed which is a something t.o. refused to acknowledge being even in the game. Tyre physics have been changed, didn't Dan say something along the lines of they were suprised how different it was compared to their guesses on tyre calculations and Pirelli's data and judging by the videos it looks like you can overload the tyres more easily and have a better chance of paying for a mistake as there is a limit of peak grip that before only the high HP cars could overcome more easily to spin without having a chance to control it. This should help with lap times being more realistic and not too fast. The only thing left is making the tracks a bit more accurate and it will be interesting to see if they have done this with all the real world ones that were in Forza 3.

The lighting engine looks a damn sight better than what was in Forza 3 and make the cars look more real. I will get this game but as I'm in no rush I will probably wait until the Ultimate Collection comes out with all the DLC included, and currently have many games to complete which may take me until then to finish. Sorry if I've repeated myself a lot and if you don't want to discuss anything with me then that's fine. No worries.

 

[Spagetti69]

Anyone hear a noise?

 

[t.o.]

Anyone hear a noise?

Nope, nothing at all. I thought I heard a draft, was just some lint in my ear.

 

[Luminis]

Here is a list of definitions for the word "Livery": Click Here

Livery is not mutually exclusive to be able to change / add sponsor names. You can change car number on race moddable cars and like I said livery editing in GT5 is to a very limited extent, not like Forza where you can do different designs and colour designs on. I'm just saying in GT5 there is a small livery editing feature, that is all like you say Shift 2 had a Gymkhana mode a wee bit of.

1) An example of a livery from the very link you posted:

Those are different liveries. Can't do something like that in GT5? Well, how's that a livery editor, then? All you can do is change the number of your car, so you've got a number editor. Nothing more.

About tyre physics, I don't know how you say it is well documented that GT5 doesn't do that.

I guess you should read up on what Forza offers in terms of tyre physics. if you can find me an example of GT5 simulating tyre deformation, we can talk.

About cars and not adding cars in theory, well PD have been. This is meant to be the fastest car in land, well virtually.

Exactly. Phantasy car in "The Real Driving Simulator". I'm emphasizing the 'real' here, by the way.

The X2010 could be totally drivable if you choose a low downforce setup, even then it will be cornering extreme but you can make laptime up on the straights and humans would be able to cope. The car is not fantasy as such, but maybe drivers being able to drive it on the limit at full downforce is.

The car isn't fantasy? Really? I haven't seen it run, sorry. And a car that would kill its driver is unrealistic, period. Especially because you're supposed to drive from the inside in GT5.
And on the downforce thing: Current LMP1 cars are generating enough lateral G's to force the drivers to stop breathing through some corners to avoid damage to their lungs (if you want to, I could find the video where, I think, Alan McNish commented on that). The X2010 is, even with minimum downforce, cornerin way faster than any LMP1 car. Driveable, yeah, sure.

I was just talking about it being the best selling title on its exclusive platform and reviews are over 80's which is good for most games and represents a good level of quality to achieve such a score. It did not turn out too badly did it?

Compared to what? To previews GTs which all scored in the 90s? To Forza, scoring in the 90s as well?

It makes the game better as it helps with the physics engine as after all if you are designing real world aero parts and using your game as simulation to do that, then it has to be pretty accurate to help. It also helps getting appreciation and links such as with Red Bull to get different challenges, such as being able to take on the current F1 world champion and also take on the WRC champion. It allows you get deals with say Top Gear first, as they have heard about you due to GT branding being so strong. If GT was a small brand then it is unlikely we would have got such good special events in the game.

Uh, what? All you're listing here is stuff that can (and probably was) bought with money. Suprise, suprise, Sony has some money and spends it on advertising. Big deal. Are you really naive enough to think that Red Bull worked with PD because they like the GT franchise so much?

Anyways, I'll follow Bogie's and Speghetti's example now and stop arguing with you about GT. From what I can tell, you're hell bend on trying to defend GT against the most valid of accuses, so there's no point to keep going, is there?
I mean, arguing that there is a livery editor is one thing, but claiming the the X2010 would be 'totally drivable' when even LMP1 cars are already pushing the human body quite close to the limit, now that's just ridiculous

Back onto Forza 4. [...]

Yeah, Dan went to some length to explain that the tyre physics have been reworked entirely and changed to quite some degree. This is what I'm looking forward to the most, as changing the tyre physics should have a hugely positive effect on the game (I've stated that the tyres are acting too grippy in another thread around here just this morning).

 

[McLaren]

The same way if I put a sticker on my car, I would just say I put a sticker on it but at the same time I would acknowledge I changed the livery of the car to an extent.

So the people who put bumper stickers on their cars have now changed their livery as well? Oh my god, I'm rolling over here.

About Kaz's interview, he only said "Probably Not" before the release of the game, (Maybe something else I'm missing) and to to a large extent it is non-existant to the levels of NFS and Forza but it has very minor livery editing which can't be really classed as a full blown editor but it can do it to a limited extent like I was saying.

Changing car colors & a number isn't even worth being called "limited".

In fact, if changing car colors is a livery editor, then nearly every single racing game has had one. So much fail logic here....

Here is a list of definitions for the word "Livery": Click Here

Livery is not mutually exclusive to be able to change / add sponsor names. You can change car number on race moddable cars and like I said livery editing in GT5 is to a very limited extent, not like Forza where you can do different designs and colour designs on. I'm just saying in GT5 there is a small livery editing feature, that is all like you say Shift 2 had a Gymkhana mode a wee bit of.

I hope you are fully aware that you have completely shot your argument in the foot by posting the definitions.

1. Special uniform worn by a servant or official

2. A special design and color scheme used on the vehicles, aircraft, or products of a particular company

You do not have to have sponsors to have a livery (though they are what usually end up dictating the designs), but GT5 does not have a livery editor through the use of changing car colors.

Going from red to green is not a livery change just as putting on a red shirt after switching from a blue shirt does not show you are suddenly in uniform.

Your argument for the livery editor is flawed beyond all doubt. You might want to cut your loss & accept you're wrong here.

 

[Terronium-12]

I don't...I don't even understand the conversation that's going on right now.

 

[cuco33]

I don't want to get in the middle of this but...

saidur_ali, the importance of a damage system is the affects to a car's performance after an incident, NOT the visual fluff you get from hitting a wall or scraping against another car. Swapped models or real time deformation isn't the importance of a damage system.

And liveries are a race car's paint scheme usually with the sponsor logos on the car. It isn't painting a car black that was once white. GT5 does not have a livery editor. At all. It would be awesome if it did, but it doesn't. Changing a number on a car isn't a livery editor. It's you simply changing a number from something to something.

The RedBull X1/X2010 is a fantasy car because it doesn't exist in real life. It's all theoretical based and an F1/LM spin off modeled into the game.

 

[Akira AC]

I don't...I don't even understand the conversation that's going on right now.

FM vs GT ,it has an similar approach to the Ouroboros meaning.

 

[shadynader]

FM vs GT ,it has an similar approach to the Ouroboros meaning.

After a while of reading you can see its the same people banging on about the same things over and over again, not even discussing what the thread was opened to discuss. A completely pointless read to the unbiased racing fans who frequent these forums. I DON'T CARE about GT5! I have that game, its in my PS3 ready to go when I feel like. I'm here to discuss or read about information regarding FM4. It is exactly the same as (even the same people in most cases) the GT5 forum before release. I didn't care about FM3, I had that in my xbox ready to go when i felt like it.

I have come to the conclusion that if it is not on the first page of a thread, it's not worth reading. Sadly for us racing sim fans.

 

[sandboxgod]

Shift 2 has HUGE input lag (at least on consoles) - after GT - I can't drive the car - I'm fighting with controls.

Second about Shift 2 is - it's 30fps (on consoles). Major drawback from GT or FM.

Another thing is game's main focus. When I've said "immersion" It doesn't automatically mean I need a Burnout game from "sim". I need just graphics to be as good as possible and as real as possible. Without turning racer into mad arcade-fun game. You just misunderstood me.

Otherwise NFSS2 a good game, but input lag makes the game unplayable for me. (actually it makes me mad)

I play shift 2 on PC never really noticed any input lag especially after that last patch. Game only crashed once + I run it at full 1080p on my plasma and still get better FPS than that I think

 

[Pierced Lead]

If fanboyism were a crime, saidur_ali would get a life sentence

However...

Speaking of etiquette, I see Scaff hasn't been here since May 11th. Wonder where he went off to.

 

[alucard0712]

I play shift 2 on PC never really noticed any input lag especially after that last patch. Game only crashed once + I run it at full 1080p on my plasma and still get better FPS than that I think

PC is whole another story

 

[t.o.]

If fanboyism were a crime, saidur_ali would get a life sentence

Life sentence? I'm thinking he'd get the chair.

 

[AndersonG22]

Life sentence? I'm thinking he'd get the chair.

Chair? I'm thinking he'd get beheaded.


















j/k

 

[Mr Latte]

Turn 10 need commended on many levels and in particular how they relate to their community. That doesn't mean their won't be similar mistakes made and issues with FM4. Keeping our feet on the ground particularly on how amazing the car handling will be improved over FM3 is one such thing.

All developers sing their own praises but the real judge of their performance will be us their audience/players.

Dan said something nobody really seems to of taken much notice of. They are now wanting to turn FM into a world recognised franchise and one that works closer with the real world car industry and manufacturers. It seems to me that they really are out to take the crown from GT by not only outperforming the game on as many levels possible but having multi year contracts with important partners for content.

It seems like an American style of approach in that they can be bigger, bolder, more aggressive and more innovative. However on the other hand, Greenawalt comes across as less annoying more focused and sincere this time.


We have more surprises coming but this showing of FM4 is probably more exciting than last years E3 with GT5.

 

[jabofu]

Turn 10 need commended on many levels and in particular how they relate to their community. That doesn't mean their won't be similar mistakes made and issues with FM4. Keeping our feet on the ground particularly on how amazing the car handling will be improved over FM3 is one such thing.

All developers sing their own praises but the real judge of their performance will be us their audience/players.

Dan said something nobody really seems to of taken much notice of. They are now wanting to turn FM into a world recognised franchise and one that works closer with the real world car industry and manufacturers. It seems to me that they really are out to take the crown from GT by not only outperforming the game on as many levels possible but having multi year contracts with important partners for content.

It seems like an American style of approach in that they can be bigger, bolder, more aggressive and more innovative. However on the other hand, Greenawalt comes across as less annoying more focused and sincere this time.


We have more surprises coming but this showing of FM4 is probably more exciting than last years E3 with GT5.

I admit that they need a better community relation. Especially in the support area. If you have a problem with the game (installation, online-service, or else) you need to be able to contact a support. On the other hand there is no information based relation between PD and us GT5 players. A point i am very dissapointed of. But then they have other good habits.

Turn 10 can use their momentum and use the not so overwhelming success of GT5, to boost the franchise at the top of the market. I want to see it happen and other too.

The big differences between the two developers are their different approach in making games. The japanese way is to work as long on something as it needs to be perfect in their eyes. They dont think about the time it needs or about any deadline, working for perfection. We saw that this didnt worked so well for GT5. In the japanese car industrie it works quite well!

Another problem is, that gamers do not want to wait more than 4-5 years to receive the next step in a franchise. When big electronic manufacturers release their hardware updates nearly monthly, you clearly see that the time changed.

Turn10 always delivered after two years. Everytime they worked out new additions and improvements for each new step. Sure in some ways there can happen bad decisions or mistakes that find their way into a game, but they get sorted out in the next step of the franchise. Mostly.

They started from nothing and now they have the best simulation racing game on the xbox 360. They brought up great innovations and additions. A livery editor, which existed in other games too, but not like this, changed the way or personalization dramatically. Tuning options with really great diversity and freedom. Over 500 cars including cockpits and damage.

To be fair other games can be better in damage, graphics and other areas, but Forza combines the aspects a definite simulation game needs. They improve always in each area, but they are not concentrating on certain things.

Forza 4 will enlarge the community and more people will buy it. I dont see that it will reach the sales of COD, but will reach some substantial highs in sales.

Its sad that PD didnt gave us a GT4: HD with mp and then just worked hard on a great and finished GT5. I adored GT3 + 4, but my heart belongs to Forza since FM 2 and sadly GT5 didnt changed it.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Another problem is, that gamers do not want to wait more than 4-5 years to receive the next step in a franchise. When big electronic manufacturers release their hardware updates nearly monthly, you clearly see that the time changed.

Well, I'm pretty sure players won't mind the wait so long as they're not disappointed, and the content is well enough to keep the five year wait for the next iteration busy from the start, not with updates and seasonal events.

 

[jabofu]

Well, I'm pretty sure players won't mind the wait so long as they're not disappointed, and the content is well enough to keep the five year wait for the next iteration busy from the start, not with updates and seasonal events.

Thats right in some cases. I think Metal Gear Solid is a great example. Waitet long for MGS 3 and 4 and those were some of the best games every made in my view. Damn how i love MGS 3.

I dont want to wait longer than two years for a Forza. For me this time line is just right. I also didnt expected or needed that jump that FM 4 offers. Graphics and physics are really fine in FM 3. And for the too high grip argument: You can decrease the Grip in an online lobby from in 10% steps or so.

 

[Luminis]

Another problem is, that gamers do not want to wait more than 4-5 years to receive the next step in a franchise. When big electronic manufacturers release their hardware updates nearly monthly, you clearly see that the time changed.

I don't know, players have been waiting for StarCraft II for twelve years and Diablo III for a decade as well and yet, Blizzard doesn't get criticized for it. I think the main thing here is what you ge for the wait.
Waiting four to five years for a game that basically stomps anycompetition easily is fine, but when you get something that's not exactly well done, that's when gamers get a bit ticked off.

Or let me put it this way: Why would anyone be okay with one developer taking twice the time of another, when the second developer offers a product that's just as polished and 'finisshed'?