Education system

[shmogt]

So I mentioned this a bit before in other threads, but learned new facts that I will share. You can catch a more detailed explanation of all of this on CNN, it was a special that put all my thoughts and more together. It was very good on just giving the truth with no bias either way.

Education in the US is nothing special as anyone who's gone to school there knows. The system is set up to have kids go in, do the time, get out and repeat the next day. Perfect for the industrial revolution in when it was made. Most teachers don't care that much whether everyone in the class is all learning and pretty much pass you for showing and completing some assignments.

South Korea has their students in school for slightly longer days and extra few weeks compared to the US. All this time adds up to two extra years of schooling. The kids test scores are threw the roof and I think first in the wold right now. They have extra hour schools that actually have to be shut down before 10pm to avoid kids from over studying. However the suicide rate is abnormally high probably from all the pressure.

Finland on the other hand has kids start school much later in life. Their schools are not close to as long as the US and yet they test just as high as South Korea. They have decided that it's not about forcing the kids to learn non stop as it is to have super great teachers to teach them thoroughly. The teachers are highly respected jobs up there with doctors and lawyers. Only the top 90% of the class are allowed into the "teachers college" and every teacher must have a phd. As opposed to the US where the bottom 20% are the majority of teachers.

Personally I have always thought Finland's approach is by far the way to go. Kids learn best from experience. You can tell a baby to do something, but they will learn much faster if they actually try it. Finland gives the kids lots of time off to try things they like to do while giving them intense and focused time while in school threw their excellent teachers. US kids l guarantee will not respond better to more and harder work loads like the Koreans anyway. What do you guys think is the better way or other ideas on how to improve the school systems? Also what are your views on standardize test? I know I used to be great at learning, but would choke and forget everything when test time came.

 

[Crispy]

It's not so much as the teachers don't care, or not studying hard enough, it's more of the fact that the school is forced to teach everything that is on the standardized tests (TAKS, FCAT, etc.) and less about anything else. We spent more time in World History learning about World War II than anything else, because that's what was on our State issued tests. Often times our teachers will deviate from this kind of stuff, but only slightly, there risking their jobs there.

Again, with World History, all our books glorified the United States actions, even if they weren't great decisions. It felt more like a piece of American Propaganda, rather than history. The World War II section went on all about, how the U.S. lost so many men. That is true, but not once did it mention how many people Russia lost, nor how many people Europe lost as a whole, nothing on the resistance, only about the Jews sentenced to death and the United States fighting back. Not much more than honorable mentions of the Allies.

It's not much the teachers, but more the State and Federal Government. We're trying to be competitive with others test scores, so we push our students to learn only what's on the test, and in turn, it makes us worse off then we were, each time we do it.

 

[Joel]

Well, the thing that bothers me as a high school student is that school seems to stop being about learning and starts being just about getting in to university/college in grade 11/12. This year, I really wanted to continue taking Biology and Chemistry, because I find the subjects very interesting, but there's no way I can do it with the other courses I'm taking for the program I'm looking in to. Last year I took both Bio/Chem to see if I thought I wanted to go into a science field as a career. I found both classes very interesting, but I didn't see it as a career for me. This year, I have to take advanced math courses, because I need them to get into an accounting program (....so I can do addition and subtraction).

It's frustrating, because I would have really liked to have taken Science courses or philosophy/world history, because I find those classes enjoyable and intriguing. But I can't, because I need my "university courses".

 

[DK]

I'll have to say that the little IMF protectorate Ireland's education system is far from perfect. For starters, there's compulsory Irish up to the final year of second level - even though only 2-3% of people in Ireland actually use Irish, and every time someone suggests making it optional (which I'm in favour of) Irish language groups start kicking up a huge fuss. The whole system is based on getting good results in the big second-level exams (the Junior and Leaving Certificates) and so there's a lot of attention paid to rote learning. Couple that with uni grants being curtailed (which I'll probably have to depend on if I wanted to even dream of third-level education), and you can understand why I don't like my country's education system. Things can only get worse with all of these budget cuts coming up.

 

[shmogt]

Yes these are all good points. I remember when I was in school we had to take courses which I could give a **** about just because it was mandatory. We had to take regular math for at least 3 yrs and nothing past grade 9 have I used since.

The history point is good too it's not even history it's just showing what your country did not all the facts. We learned Canadian history which sucks ass may I add and learned nothing of the more exciting American history or any other part of the world.

I had a lot of teachers who were just heres the stuff learn it and test on Friday. Didn't really put effort in at all or try to teach just told us what page numbers to look at in the book, which was always outdated. Everything needs to change it's too get in learn this and come back for the test. If you got good in the test than you must of learned something and you pass. I passed a ton of test and didn't learn anything just guessed since there was a huge multiple choice section. Doesn't show I learned anything because there was only four choice to guess from and two where usually obviously wrong anyway.

 

[Danoff]

The US education system sucks because there is no competition, we don't fire teachers, and parents don't get involved. That's about it.

I went to public high school, it was like a prison. You just sat around doodling until the bell rung and you got to go to a different room and sit around. The teachers didn't give a crap whether you learned or not. It made no difference in their lives. Their pay wouldn't change, they couldn't be fired, they simply didn't care. The students didn't care either as their parents placed seemingly zero emphasis on... anything educational.

I'll tell you what the answer is not. The answer is not removing standardized tests (then the flunky public school teachers really won't care about anything). The answer is not to force students to stay in prison... sorry school... longer just because that's what they do in Korea. All that will accomplish is to generate more doodling. The answer is also not to give the students more time off, this will result in doodling on buildings and signs using spray paint cans.

 

[shmogt]

The US education system sucks because there is no competition, we don't fire teachers, and parents don't get involved. That's about it.

I went to public high school, it was like a prison. You just sat around doodling until the bell rung and you got to go to a different room and sit around. The teachers didn't give a crap whether you learned or not. It made no difference in their lives. Their pay wouldn't change, they couldn't be fired, they simply didn't care. The students didn't care either as their parents placed seemingly zero emphasis on... anything educational.

I'll tell you what the answer is not. The answer is not removing standardized tests (then the flunky public school teachers really won't care about anything). The answer is not to force students to stay in prison... sorry school longer just because that's what they do in Korea. All that will accomplish is to generate more doodling. The answer is also not to give the students more time off, this will result in doodling on buildings and signs using spray paint cans.

Lol your school sounds similar to mine. Mine was catholic school tho and we had the gym teacher teach us religion lol.

The Finland way is also if the teachers do good they get paid more and if there are cut backs and it's between a 10yr person and a fresh face person but the 10yr person is gonna get fired. Unlike here where it's first in first out policy which makes older teachers care even less.

 

[Exorcet]

South Korea has their students in school for slightly longer days and extra few weeks compared to the US. All this time adds up to two extra years of schooling.

I think rather than extending school time, kids should be strongly encouraged to pursue activities related to their interests in the off time (esp summer). One example would be someone aviation related going to some program related to building small scale aircraft. They could be exposed to things beyond the school curriculum and at the same time get more of an idea of what it's like to have their dream job, if they have one at the time.

It's frustrating, because I would have really liked to have taken Science courses or philosophy/world history, because I find those classes enjoyable and intriguing. But I can't, because I need my "university courses".

This goes on after college too. I had to take Biology and a bunch of Humanities/History classes that I could care less about. Some were kind of fun, but they have yet to make me better at engineering, I have yet to feel a need to try to remember anything I learned from them.

 

[shmogt]

This goes on after college too. I had to take Biology and a bunch of Humanities/History classes that I could care less about. Some were kind of fun, but they have yet to make me better at engineering, I have yet to feel a need to try to remember anything I learned from them.

omg dude I had to take 3 English courses, and like four electives in college. I took musical pioneers as one figured it would be easier than the other option of like advanced physics that's they offered and failed it. I was like who gives a **** I took it and it's not gonna help me at all in life but they were like no now you have to take another. Screwed me so bad since it was the only corse I needed to graduate and had to pay more money to take some random dumb course just to graduate

 

[prisonermonkeys]

US kids l guarantee will not respond better to more and harder work loads like the Koreans anyway.

Are you a teacher? Have you seen any of the literature on the theories of learning? Can you distinguish between the ideas suggested by Piaget and Vygotsky? Do you know what Bloom's Taxonomy and the Zone of Proximal Development are? If the answer to any of these is 'no', then I have to ask - how are in an position to pass judgement on what is effective in the classroom?

What do you guys think is the better way or other ideas on how to improve the school systems?

You sem to think that the solution is to simply take the systems used in Finland or Korea or wherever, work them into American schools, and something something something better results. That's an over-simplified approach, and fixing problems within the education system is not something that happens overnight.

 

[Joel]

The US education system sucks because there is no competition, we don't fire teachers, and parents don't get involved. That's about it.

I went to public high school, it was like a prison. You just sat around doodling until the bell rung and you got to go to a different room and sit around. The teachers didn't give a crap whether you learned or not. It made no difference in their lives. Their pay wouldn't change, they couldn't be fired, they simply didn't care. The students didn't care either as their parents placed seemingly zero emphasis on... anything educational.

I'll tell you what the answer is not. The answer is not removing standardized tests (then the flunky public school teachers really won't care about anything). The answer is not to force students to stay in prison... sorry school... longer just because that's what they do in Korea. All that will accomplish is to generate more doodling. The answer is also not to give the students more time off, this will result in doodling on buildings and signs using spray paint cans.

This is pretty representative of my time in Canadian high school. It's a tad better with competition here, because there's a public (secular) school board, a Catholic school board (publicly funded), and a french immersion school system which is also publicly funded. Because of this, there is some semblance of competition between the schools, and that makes every school better.

However, the stuff about it being "prison" and doodling is quite accurate. Every day I sit in my business leadership class for 75 minutes and dick around on the computer because it's so easy and we just watch movies. Then I have accounting class, I do some problems from the textbook for 15 minutes, learn the concept and then sit there and...dick around on the computer for an hour. The only class I'm productive start to finish is math, because that's my toughest subject and I need to pay attention, as well as do the work in class while I can ask the teacher questions. After lunch, I have 75 minutes of french, where I sit there and shoot the 🤬 with my buddy and don't do any work because the mark is mostly on how well you can verbally speak french (which I do well enough to get good grades in high school). Admittedly, exposure to french in class has greatly helped my French skills but not to the tune where I'm happy with burning 75 minutes a day there 5 days a week.

It's frustrating, because I really could do away with going to school and learn just as much, except for Math. I'm really only learning anything (from the teachers) in math class, everything else I'm teaching myself in minutes what the teachers are explaining for an hour. It just seems like a colossal waste of time to me. This year I will have two classes I'll really want to be there for and will benefit from having the teacher, those are Math and English. Everything else I could take on the internet from home and get the same or likely better grades.

I mean, of course I'm exaggerating the negatives, but I really do believe that outside of Math/English for me (even English is debatable), it's a waste of time for me to have to go to class. I just sit there for 2 an a half hours, go to math, then sit there wasting time for another two hours. It all adds up to me burning 20+ hours a week that I could be working, and not being a massive drain on the taxpayer.

Let me make something clear, I do like school most of the time, I don't dread going to school, and it really isn't that bad. I'm not a dick to my teachers or classmates, and I do enjoy the social aspect of school. I just feel that the amount of time I waste at school because I have to sit there for 75 minutes is ridiculous.

 

[Dapper]

Considering most, or all, of us here are men, this may be interesting to some-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lisa-...fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=939037,b=facebook

 

[shmogt]

Are you a teacher? Have you seen any of the literature on the theories of learning? Can you distinguish between the ideas suggested by Piaget and Vygotsky? Do you know what Bloom's Taxonomy and the Zone of Proximal Development are? If the answer to any of these is 'no', then I have to ask - how are in an position to pass judgement on what is effective in the classroom?

You sem to think that the solution is to simply take the systems used in Finland or Korea or wherever, work them into American schools, and something something something better results. That's an over-simplified approach, and fixing problems within the education system is not something that happens overnight.

Lol I'm not a teacher and I answered no to all those questions. However what gives me the right to say North American kids will not respond better to longer days and more work is because I don't know any of the things you said and I don't give a **** either. I love learning new things too so if I don't want to take extra time to learn stuff I'm sure a kid who's in school definitely won't either.

I'm not saying for sure just take someone else's system and it will work, but those are two different options that are proving to be highly successful. Asians are always studying really hard and good at math and science while American kids the majority don't care. They would rather be off doing other things. The Finland approach is good because kids will go to school and if you make it more fun and make the kids want to learn rather than forcing them to learn they will actually try. If you want something you will put effort in rather than someone says read pages 1-50 and test on Tuesday. I would never read the pages or have the text book and still pass the test just by knowledge I overheard during class and guessing the answers.

At noon616: ya man that's what I'm saying so much of class time is a total waste. They should just give you that time off to put more effort on doing other homework for more important classes. Other option is step it up! How many weeks can they go on about the same stuff just move on to the next one already. Nothing is worse than wasting time especially when you have a big paper due, but o no you can't go home and work on it because history class is watching a old movie and you have to watch it.

Another thing I think they need to incorporate big time is a nutrition class. Basically make gym class about how the body works and the correct foods it needs. Also give the kids the ability to read the science of how to squat than they get to try it to understand even better. It will save so many kids from injuries in future if they know how to lift, push, and pull things properly. Plus knowing what foods to eat will cut back on the growing problem of obese children since they will be more educated in why certain foods are making them fat. Of course dodge ball everyday is somehow a better option *rolls eyes*

 

[prisonermonkeys]

However what gives me the right to say North American kids will not respond better to longer days and more work is because I don't know any of the things you said and I don't give a **** either.

Well, the things I listed are the the fundamentals of teaching theory. The works of Jean Piaget and Lev Vygotsky in particular form the basis of all classroom practices aimed at improving student development, while Benjamin Bloom developed a structured series of learning tasks that require increasingly-sophisticated thought processes.

See, this is the problem with your post: you think you have all of the answers, but you don't have any of the necessary knowledge to be able to understand the question, and your attitude of "I don't care" makes you even less qualified to give an answer. You assume that just because you learn a particular way, all students learn that way - which is patently untrue. There is no one universally-defined truth to teaching, no checklist of things that a teacher can do that always guarantee students respond to content in the same way and extract the most value from them.

 

[shmogt]

Well, the things I listed are the the fundamentals of teaching theory. The works of Jean Piaget and Lev Vygotsky in particular form the basis of all classroom practices aimed at improving student development, while Benjamin Bloom developed a structured series of learning tasks that require increasingly-sophisticated thought processes.

See, this is the problem with your post: you think you have all of the answers, but you don't have any of the necessary knowledge to be able to understand the question, and your attitude of "I don't care" makes you even less qualified to give an answer. You assume that just because you learn a particular way, all students learn that way - which is patently untrue. There is no one universally-defined truth to teaching, no checklist of things that a teacher can do that always guarantee students respond to content in the same way and extract the most value from them.

Again I didn't say I have all the answers and just switch it to Finland or Korea and BAM kids are smarter. I said they are number one in the world right now so it's a pretty good starting point to try and use a system which has been tested with great results. Personally I think Finland's approach would be much better suited for America. If I went into any school and said hey kid ls we are going to give you more holidays and replace the teachers with super smart ones so you learn more efficient. What kid would say no? They would all be excited about more holidays and become smarter omg it sounds like a dream. When I first heard about their system it made me wish I could of been taught that way.

 

[Villain]

What did Mark Twain say about being thought a fool?

Get him 'ludes!

 

[sumbrownkid]

A lot of it is also due to our culture.

The media plays up idiots like Kim Kardashian and Snooki while no mention of the CERN or whatever that physics experiment in Europe is called that everyone is afraid will destroy the world.

We also have a lot of broken homes too unfortunately, and familial values seem to be thrown out the window. How will a kid respect school if his or her parents don't support them in their struggles?

The reason why I did well in school is because I had my family push me. Many children in our schools today don't get that support. I'm glad my dad was a hard ass on me whenever I blew off homework.

We are more worried about teen pregnancy (unfortunate reality) compared to abysmal geography.

We have great teachers. We have great schools. We just need to put in the effort.

And the last part is what is clearly lacking in most schools.

 

[shmogt]

A lot of it is also due to our culture.

The media plays up idiots like Kim Kardashian and Snooki while no mention of the CERN or whatever that physics experiment in Europe is called that everyone is afraid will destroy the world.

We also have a lot of broken homes too unfortunately, and familial values seem to be thrown out the window. How will a kid respect school if his or her parents don't support them in their struggles?

The reason why I did well in school is because I had my family push me. Many children in our schools today don't get that support.

We are more worried about teen pregnancy (unfortunate reality) compared to abysmal geography.

We have great teachers. We have great schools. We just need to put in the effort.

And the last part is what is clearly lacking in most schools.

I think more the opposite for me. If school is more fun and intriguing your going to want to go. Right now it's boring as hell and no reason to try. Parents know its easy too so they don't need to push to do well. You actually have to try to do bad since its mainly as long as you hand in the assignment you will pass. 50 as a passing mark is not a pass either. It's just the most minimal amount of knowledge. How can a kid move on to harder stuff if they barely passing the easier stuff? It should be 80 is a pass. I think if you score 80's than you clearly have mastered the topic and are qualified to move to harder things.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Again I didn't say I have all the answers and just switch it to Finland or Korea and BAM kids are smarter. I said they are number one in the world right now so it's a pretty good starting point to try and use a system which has been tested with great results. Personally I think Finland's approach would be much better suited for America. If I went into any school and said hey kid ls we are going to give you more holidays and replace the teachers with super smart ones so you learn more efficient. What kid would say no? They would all be excited about more holidays and become smarter omg it sounds like a dream. When I first heard about their system it made me wish I could of been taught that way.

Do you know what I like about your posts?

It's not the way you seem to think you have all the answers. It's in the way I keep directing you to people who have conceived the principles on which modern teaching theories were founded, and you keep ignoring them. You keep insisting you know how and why the education system exists the way it does, and yet it has not actually occured to you why I might be directing your attention to Vygotsky and Piaget and Bloom in the first place.

PS - No doubt some of you know where I'm going with this; it's well-documented as to why I might be saying these things. If you know the answer, please do not say anything. Let shmogt work it out for himself.

 

[shmogt]

I'm lost on whatever your trying to teach me I said already what I think are some options that may work. Finland's approach seems good to me and I feel it may work here. No guarantees it will obviously, but it has credit since its been tested with great results in other parts of the world. If you think the Korean and Finland approach are still wrong just say what you think could work.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm lost on whatever your trying to teach me I said already what I think are some options that may work.

But the problem is that you are trying to say "this will work" without understanding the fundamentals of teaching theory. Do you want to know why I suggested you look at them? It's because I'm a teacher. I've been giving you every opportunity to work this out for the past twenty-four hours, and it hasn't even occurred to you. And yet, you still think that you're in a position to pass judgement on a national education system. You have no knowledge of teaching theory, no knowledge of how students learn, and no knowledge of why the systems used in Finland work the way they do. You seem to think that you can take the Finnish school system, apply it to North American schools, and instantly get the same results that the Finns do. And when I challenge you to go out and learn some more about how teachers teach, this was your response:

what gives me the right to say North American kids will not respond better to longer days and more work is because I don't know any of the things you said and I don't give a **** either.

And all of this despite your claims that:

I love learning new things too.

Which, I might add, was the very next sentence that you wrote after saying you didn't care about the likes of Vygotsky and Piaget and Bloom. So what am I supposed to think? How are you in any position to pass judgement on your education system when you have no knowledge of the subject, have demonstrated an aversion to learning about it and cannot even recognise it for what it is when someone who is qualified in this area starts suggesting these things to you?

 

[shmogt]

You're the one telling me I'm saying "this will work" when I non stop have said this is just my opinion and have no idea if it will work here, but it's a different system that works somewhere else so it can't hurt to try. I'm not a teacher or anyone who has researched into teaching, but I did go to school in North America and can say it sucks and I would of loved to have the Finland system. I hated going to class and wasting my time with teachers who didn't care. Imagine how much better it would be if the teachers were super smart plus more vacation time. It's every kids dream they get to learn from a genius and get more time to learn about things they like in their free time. Makes me wanna go back.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

it's a different system that works somewhere else so it can't hurt to try.

Oh, it will hurt - you have no idea how the Finnish system works or why, only that it does and therefore should be introduced.

 

[shmogt]

Oh, it will hurt - you have no idea how the Finnish system works or why, only that it does and therefore should be introduced.

Lol ok you say this based on just because you are a teacher? We need a change in North American education and I gave two ways that can make a difference. Obviously you can't take the exact system and imply it here since we have different laws and parents will complain ect, but you can take all the good points and work it into a system that will work here being very similar to one of the systems I listed. Both systems still run on go to class, learn, leave, and involve test bassed scoring same as here. Nothing super crazy and so different that it would be that hard to edit a little to fit us better. I would like to know what you think is the better options than since taking the top two world systems will somehow hurt us even more.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Lol ok you say this based on just because you are a teacher?

No, I say it because I know what the Finnish education system involves. It's not simply "super-smart teachers", as you put it. It's a holisitc approach that ties education directly into employment, with students knowing exactly where they need to go and when in order achieve their goals. When they get to the end of high school, they know exactly what is needed to become a doctor or a teacher or an engineer or whatever their heart desires. Furthermore, their primary school system sees students grouped with the same teacher from kindergarten trough to their final year, to develop rapport between students and teachers.

We need a change in North American education and I gave two ways that can make a difference. Obviously you can't take the exact system and imply it here since we have different laws and parents will complain ect, but you can take all the good points and work it into a system that will work here being very similar to one of the systems I listed.

No, you can't take the exact same system and apply it to America. The Finnish system works because everything is integrated. This works because Finland has a population of just 5.3 million poeople. The US, on the other hand, has a population of 312.6 million; Finland's population is just 1.6% of the American population. Changing the US education system would take decades. And even then, the system is only as good as the students. If students resist education, then there is very little that the system can do for them, regardless of whether it is the American, Finnish or Korean system (or any other).

I would like to know what you think is the better options than since taking the top two world systems will somehow hurt us even more.

That's the problem - there is no "better option" that will automatically guarantee an improvement in student performance the way you seem to think it will. It's not something that you change and suddenly get better results, and it's impossible to pass judgement without having actual data to work with. Do you have any statistics that you can cite to prove your theory? Or are you basing this on your experiences in one classroom of one school? You have no evidence that there is a problem in the first place, and nothing to support your idea that adopting another country's system will have any noticeable effect.

We have an expression here: "empty vessels make the most noise". It means that people who have very little knowledge of a subject talk about it the most. And reading your posts, it's quite clear that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Dapper]

Furthermore, their primary school system sees students grouped with the same teacher from kindergarten trough to their final year, to develop rapport between students and teachers.

This idea has never crossed my mind. Interesting at least.

Changing the US education system would take decades. And even then, the system is only as good as the students. If students resist education, then there is very little that the system can do for them, regardless of whether it is the American, Finnish or Korean system (or any other).

"For a relationship to change in any significant way, he who holds the power must change." T Gordon
While you are right, I believe it is never the kids' fault.

And from my three years of experience being a parent of a child in the US public education system, I think it is pretty good. And any problems I've noticed are not with the actual school, but rather the legislation that stands between the school's resources and the students.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

While you are right, I believe it is never the kids' fault.

Well, I don't mean to generalise, but there are some students - and I have encountered them - who do not respond to anything. There is a changing attitude among students; they see school as a social experience rather than an educational one, and that can be very difficult to work with or around.

 

[shmogt]

I actually did know all the stuff you listed, but North America is not even close to the top of test scores and needs a change to improve. As I said Finland approach I would choose over Korea personally, but there is clearly going to be a few tweaks to make it work for us. I never said it will happen over night, but it will get better over the years. Finland is much smaller, but there are many states with the same size population which you could do trial systems in and see if the scores improve before implementing it the all of America. When I was in grade school we learned imperial system than randomly they said Canada is switching to metric time for all you kids to learn that. It was tough learning a new system and older kids probably had a tougher time, but guess what a new system had been implemented and we had to and did learn the new way.

50years ago the system was best in the world and made many geniuses like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, etc who revolutionized the world. Name a great North American inventor in the past 15yrs. The closest one is the Facebook guy and he's not an inventor he just made tons of money exploiting the fact that everyone wants to be in the cool group and made a website dedicated to popularity. Steve Jobs said he had to go to China to have his products engineered because he couldn't find 30,000 engineers in America who could do the job. Don't confuse that with manufacturing either.

You are talking to me like I'm some fool just randomly spitting false info. There is tons of other stats and facts out there that show America's education is awful compared to other countries which is ridiculous since they are supposed to be a big super power in the world. I'll do what you did to me and tell you its true and let you research it yourself.

All I'm saying is the system needs to be changed. I wanted to know what others thought on either choosing a Finland or Korea style (not identical plan) or if there is another option which you think is better. Kids will succeed, others will fail no matter what the plan, but a good system will decide how many success stories there are.

Since you are basically saying both these systems will not work and nothing will make it better than I'm assuming you feel it's perfectly fine the way it is. If that was true than we would be best in the world pumping out very smart people left and right. Instead of having a crazy low unemployment rate.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

How old are you, shmogt? You keep speaking from experience, but your wording suggests you are still in high school. And if this is the case, then you're hardly in a position to pass judgement, are you? All you're doing is basing your experience off one or maybe two schools that you personally have attended, and waving some statistics about, as if they are some empyrical truth.

You do not know what you are talking about. Please stop before you embarrass yourself.

There is tons of other stats and facts out there that show America's education is awful compared to other countries which is ridiculous since they are supposed to be a big super power in the world.

Then produce them! Show me evidence of your arguments.

I'll do what you did to me and tell you its true and let you research it yourself.

You know what I see when I read this? "I'm sure they're out there, but I don't know where to look, so I'll just get someone else to do it for me". I actually know exactly which statistics you should be showing me to make a valid argument, because I quite literally have them in my hands as we speak.

Since you are basically saying both these systems will not work and nothing will make it better than I'm assuming you feel it's perfectly fine the way it is.

No, I'm saying the system will not work if you assume that it will work in America simply because it works elsewhere.

If that was true than we would be best in the world pumping out very smart people left and right.

This statment just demonstrates your fundamental lack of understanding. People do not simply go to school, receive information and come out "smart". Intelligence does not work that way.

Instead of having a crazy low unemployment rate.

Isn't a "crazy-low unemployment rate" a good thing?

 

[jagdrag77]

Ha, man this is a good read so far