Education system

[XoravaX]

From what I've heard, the problem in the US is that the state schools aren't that good, and the private schools, the better they are the more they cost. Now, if a child of a factory worker is smart and has potential, he can never reach a good college as his parents have no money to put him in a good school, but instead he has to go into a state-funded school where the teachers are what they are. Not to mention college costs. How could his parents ever afford it with their factory worker salaries?

In Finland, as the education, both mandatory (elementary school of 6yrs and junior high of 3yrs) education, high school (3yrs) and college are free. There are several private schools, but they are more for those with special needs - almost every school is state funded. Also, things like schoolbooks and pencils are free during the mandatory education, though in high school the books and such have to be bought, which costs somewhere around €1500-2000 for the three years. Also, lunch is free in elementary, junior high and high schools.

Now that causes a massive need for money. Guess where it all comes from? Taxes.
My father is white-collar worker with a base monthly salary of €4500 (US$ 6000). He pays around 18% municipal tax (from which schools, hospitals etc are funded), 10% state income tax (which is used to fund police, government, army, universities, museums etc) and 5% other taxes (funding church and other minor state supported institutions) totalling around 33% income tax, taking €1500 from the income, leaving around €3000. Currently, thanks to our previous governing coalition, the income taxes are at an all time low. Previously, during the recession we had in early 90's, his income tax was around 40% at worst.

Now for example, if Romney with his high income has 14% total income tax, how could the US government ever fund a system like the Finnish one? Republicans would go out rioting against "communist government" if your tax percentages were ever to be risen to the levels they are in Finland (or other North European countries for that matter).

I'm sure every child and teenager would welcome the system nonetheless.
Our school days are pretty short - as following:
In elementary, for the first three years the days have four 45 minute lessons plus breaks. Days are from 9AM to 1PM or 8AM to noon.
The lenght gradually increases to five 45 minute lessons a day at sixth class, last in elementary school. Days usually begin at 9AM and end at 2PM.
In junior high (classes 7-9), the school days have six 45 minute lessons (or three 90 minute lessons, depending on school - 45 minute lessons are more common but I found the 90 minute lessons better as that means less homework)
Days are from 8AM to 2PM.
In high school the lessons are always 75-minute long. Usual days have 4 lessons, some 3 (rarely 5, 2 or, very rarely 1) since we can customise our own timetables slightly in the choices, we can for example choose between four different times for our maths lessons.
Days are usually from 8AM to 2.30PM, some 10AM to 2.30PM, some 8AM to 1PM.
Rarely ending at 4PM or as early as 11AM, or beginning at 11AM.
Timetables are arranged for five periods a year, each of which has exams at the end.

Some politicians have wanted to lengthen the school days, but teachers fiercely defend the current system. For example, my French teacher sometimes has one day a week she hasn't to teach at all since French isn't as widely read as mandatory maths or such. Still, she gets the high school teacher's medium-high salary. No wonder why the teachers don't want a change.

But what is important, also those having problems with learning are taken care of. In junior high, those poor in maths were transferred to another teacher during our maths lessons were the things they were having problems were taken individually a look at. That also rises the PISA results, as there is no worst end, while the Korean and HK systems highlight the high end (apparently leaving the worse on their own).

Also, divide between better and worse students is made as late as when applying for high school. The high schools take applicants based on their notes' average (which are on a scale of 4-10, 4 being the worst, failed, 5 the worst passed and 10 the best). For those better in certain subjects there are special lines in junior high too, but only in some schools.

Finally, parents are somewhat involved, moreso in elementary school though. There, teachers often contact parents if there is something that the parents should be concerned of. Also, as usual, fights on the schoolyard and other rule-breakings are often told to parents. A thing most of us hated.
The teachers also invite parents to talk with them on a yearly basis in elementary and junior high.
In high school the only involvement of parents is approving sick leaves and such, and then the gripe about homework for most.

But I sure like my two 75-minute-lesson fridays (from 8AM to 11AM) - in high school.

 

[BiggRayy]

The only thing i learnt at school was how to fight and run home verry fast.

my fitness level was astonishingly brilliant by year 11

 

[Lizard]

When you go through the education I have then you will know what awful is.

Thats all I am saying about my expirience though.

 

[BiggRayy]

When you go through the education I have then you will know what awful is.

Thats all I am saying about my expirience though.

Haha i know where your coming from mate , its all down to the kids nowaday i mean who wants to learn when they can sit on there backsides playing pc ps3 ect ect then come of age sign on at job centre .

Wastnt that the education system was poor just that nobody gave a flying 🤬

 

[shmogt]

As a teacher myself, I find that greatly offensive.

I'll be the first person to tell you that our school system has some problems and is falling short in many ways. But there are thousands and thousands of teachers in the U.S. who work their a**es off day in, day out, and care very deeply for each and every student that walks through the door.

Unfortunately, they are in many ways handcuffed by flaws in the school system, and unable to devote enough time in the day to what they would like. Until you try teaching yourself, maybe you should just keep your mouth shut.

And there's only so much a teacher can do. Especially when, in a lot of cases anymore:



This is one of the biggest problems we have to deal with. If nobody at home is paying attention or providing support/feedback for the student, a teacher's 45 minutes per day with them becomes much less effective.

I'm a very self-motivated learner, I have been since college. But before that? Not so much. So why did I get good grades in high school? Why did I succeed before I grew up enough to care? My parents. I could have had the best teachers in the world, but at that age, if my parents hadn't invested themselves so much in my education, I would've been much worse off.

I didn't say all teachers are horrible, you should only feel offended if you know that you fit into that category. I am fighting for the ones who do try very hard. Like I mentioned about the first hired, last fired policy. In most cases teachers who are recently hired try very hard because they love teaching and want to do good at their job. Than cut backs come and they get fired while the ones who don't care or try as hard get to stay just because they were hired before them. This is insane. It is forcing all the great teachers to have to be put on a waiting list to try to be a teacher and than they have to hope they don't get fired from cutbacks. I have had many teachers who I really enjoy showing to class for even tho the subject I didn't care for that much.

I was in a college economy class and I was so scared I was gonna fail because I knew nothing about economy and was forced to take it as an elective. The teacher was great tho he made me not care that I had to get up at 6am to be there at 8am to listen to a lecture about something I didn't care about. I not only passed with 78%, but I enjoyed the subject and would like to learn more. That is the teachers only job. Make the kids want to learn by themselves when they leave the class.

My parents didn't care at all what I was taking. They would ask question, but didn't know anything about the subjects and just let me do my own thing. I had to force myself to do the work and learn by myself just from what the teacher taught me. The great teachers made the subject seem fun and exciting even tho it may have been something boring. If the teacher has passion for what they do and loves sharing the information with others the kids will pick up on that. If the teacher just sits there and says read pages 30-50 and we will talk about it tomorrow, no kid is gonna want to do that.

As a teacher what are other problems you think that need to be changed?

From what I've heard, the problem in the US is that the state schools aren't that good, and the private schools, the better they are the more they cost. Now, if a child of a factory worker is smart and has potential, he can never reach a good college as his parents have no money to put him in a good school, but instead he has to go into a state-funded school where the teachers are what they are. Not to mention college costs. How could his parents ever afford it with their factory worker salaries?

In Finland, as the education, both mandatory (elementary school of 6yrs and junior high of 3yrs) education, high school (3yrs) and college are free. There are several private schools, but they are more for those with special needs - almost every school is state funded. Also, things like schoolbooks and pencils are free during the mandatory education, though in high school the books and such have to be bought, which costs somewhere around €1500-2000 for the three years. Also, lunch is free in elementary, junior high and high schools.

Now that causes a massive need for money. Guess where it all comes from? Taxes.
My father is white-collar worker with a base monthly salary of €4500 (US$ 6000). He pays around 18% municipal tax (from which schools, hospitals etc are funded), 10% state income tax (which is used to fund police, government, army, universities, museums etc) and 5% other taxes (funding church and other minor state supported institutions) totalling around 33% income tax, taking €1500 from the income, leaving around €3000. Currently, thanks to our previous governing coalition, the income taxes are at an all time low. Previously, during the recession we had in early 90's, his income tax was around 40% at worst.

Now for example, if Romney with his high income has 14% total income tax, how could the US government ever fund a system like the Finnish one? Republicans would go out rioting against "communist government" if your tax percentages were ever to be risen to the levels they are in Finland (or other North European countries for that matter).

I'm sure every child and teenager would welcome the system nonetheless.
Our school days are pretty short - as following:
In elementary, for the first three years the days have four 45 minute lessons plus breaks. Days are from 9AM to 1PM or 8AM to noon.
The lenght gradually increases to five 45 minute lessons a day at sixth class, last in elementary school. Days usually begin at 9AM and end at 2PM.
In junior high (classes 7-9), the school days have six 45 minute lessons (or three 90 minute lessons, depending on school - 45 minute lessons are more common but I found the 90 minute lessons better as that means less homework)
Days are from 8AM to 2PM.
In high school the lessons are always 75-minute long. Usual days have 4 lessons, some 3 (rarely 5, 2 or, very rarely 1) since we can customise our own timetables slightly in the choices, we can for example choose between four different times for our maths lessons.
Days are usually from 8AM to 2.30PM, some 10AM to 2.30PM, some 8AM to 1PM.
Rarely ending at 4PM or as early as 11AM, or beginning at 11AM.
Timetables are arranged for five periods a year, each of which has exams at the end.

Some politicians have wanted to lengthen the school days, but teachers fiercely defend the current system. For example, my French teacher sometimes has one day a week she hasn't to teach at all since French isn't as widely read as mandatory maths or such. Still, she gets the high school teacher's medium-high salary. No wonder why the teachers don't want a change.

But what is important, also those having problems with learning are taken care of. In junior high, those poor in maths were transferred to another teacher during our maths lessons were the things they were having problems were taken individually a look at. That also rises the PISA results, as there is no worst end, while the Korean and HK systems highlight the high end (apparently leaving the worse on their own).

Also, divide between better and worse students is made as late as when applying for high school. The high schools take applicants based on their notes' average (which are on a scale of 4-10, 4 being the worst, failed, 5 the worst passed and 10 the best). For those better in certain subjects there are special lines in junior high too, but only in some schools.

Finally, parents are somewhat involved, moreso in elementary school though. There, teachers often contact parents if there is something that the parents should be concerned of. Also, as usual, fights on the schoolyard and other rule-breakings are often told to parents. A thing most of us hated.
The teachers also invite parents to talk with them on a yearly basis in elementary and junior high.
In high school the only involvement of parents is approving sick leaves and such, and then the gripe about homework for most.

But I sure like my two 75-minute-lesson fridays (from 8AM to 11AM) - in high school.

So I am getting that you like the system there, but it still has it's flaws?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I stated many times this is my opinion and we can all come together to think if possible ideas that would improve it.

I know you made it clear that this is your opinion. However, you lack any real knowledge on the subject. How can you pass a judgement and say "the system is flawed" when you have repeatedly demosntrated that you don't know how the system works in the first place? That's why I suggested you go and do some reading on the subject - so that you can establish an informed opinion. However, you repeatedly rejected my suggestions and insisted you knew what you were talking about.

 

[shmogt]

I know you made it clear that this is your opinion. However, you lack any real knowledge on the subject. How can you pass a judgement and say "the system is flawed" when you have repeatedly demosntrated that you don't know how the system works in the first place? That's why I suggested you go and do some reading on the subject - so that you can establish an informed opinion. However, you repeatedly rejected my suggestions and insisted you knew what you were talking about.

It's my opinion based on what I have read and personally been through. Every single north American kid here posted a similar story. You don't even live here you are the one who only has the knowledge of what our system looks like on paper not actually going through it. All I ever said was I think they need to step their game up. Gave a few ideas which I have know idea whether they will work, but hoped other would give their opinions on and say "that's a great idea" or "that is one way however I think this would be better...". You refuse to share any sort of ideas and just keep telling me to do more research. Why don't you stop being a baby and speak like an adult with the rest of us. My ideas are wrong you say, fine I have know problem with that. Makes know difference to me. Just share your ideas on the subject. You refuse to and can only say how insanely stupid I am for voicing my thoughts.

If you haven't noticed yet this is a discussion. Share the knowledge you know with everyone. Making me only understand you does nothing in a group thread.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's my opinion based on what I have read and personally been through.

And you think that that is enough to form an informed opinion? I don't understand your resistance to this. I'm giving you the opportunity to learn more, to be better-informed, and you persistently refuse to do it, as if you expeirence trumps any other material. The theories of teaching that I am directing you towards have formed the basis of almost all education worldwide for the better part of a century. Don't you think they might be just a little bit relevant to what you're trying to argue?

 

[huskeR32]

I didn't say all teachers are horrible...

Quote from the OP:

Education in the US is nothing special as anyone who's gone to school there knows. The system is set up to have kids go in, do the time, get out and repeat the next day. Perfect for the industrial revolution in when it was made. Most teachers don't care that much whether everyone in the class is all learning and pretty much pass you for showing and completing some assignments.

So you didn't literally use the word "all," I'll grant that. Backpedal all you want, but I don't think anybody read that and came away with a different impression than I did.

... you should only feel offended if you know that you fit into that category.

That's twice now. Are you really that unaware of how insulting you sound with these comments?

I am fighting for the ones who do try very hard.

Well, I did try very hard ("did" because I no longer teach) and I don't feel like anything you've said has been supportive of teachers. If you're really "fighting" for teachers, re-think how you're saying it. Honestly though, I doubt you are. I think you're just trying to backpedal out of some offensive comments.

Like I mentioned about the first hired, last fired policy. In most cases teachers who are recently hired try very hard because they love teaching and want to do good at their job. Than cut backs come and they get fired while the ones who don't care or try as hard get to stay just because they were hired before them. This is insane. It is forcing all the great teachers to have to be put on a waiting list to try to be a teacher and than they have to hope they don't get fired from cutbacks. I have had many teachers who I really enjoy showing to class for even tho the subject I didn't care for that much

Here I can agree with you. Many good teachers are being driven away by a very unstable job market right now, and it's a shame. But this problem can't be looked at strictly as a sign of a bad school system. The state of the economy has been murderous on schools.

My parents didn't care at all what I was taking. They would ask question, but didn't know anything about the subjects and just let me do my own thing. I had to force myself to do the work and learn by myself just from what the teacher taught me. The great teachers made the subject seem fun and exciting even tho it may have been something boring. If the teacher has passion for what they do and loves sharing the information with others the kids will pick up on that. If the teacher just sits there and says read pages 30-50 and we will talk about it tomorrow, no kid is gonna want to do that.

Now again, I think you're wandering into territory that only somebody who has actually taught can truly claim to know about. I had plenty of students who responded to me, were great students, and repeatedly told me that I really made class enjoyable for them. Plenty of other students were the polar opposite. In many of those cases, the difference between good student and bad was parental involvement (or lack thereof). Does this explain every student's success or failure? Of course not. But it's definitely a major factor.

As a teacher what are other problems you think that need to be changed?

People who think they know what they're talking about criticizing our teachers and schools.

 

[Jubby]

The theories of teaching that I am directing you towards have formed the basis of almost all education worldwide for the better part of a century.

I don't think teaching theory is the majority of the problem. The majority of the problem lies, especially in the US, in the home structure. Some of this is society based. As outlined by this:

My parents didn't care at all what I was taking. They would ask question, but didn't know anything about the subjects and just let me do my own thing. I had to force myself to do the work and learn by myself just from what the teacher taught me.

My view in a nutshell: Education starts and ends at the home. Learning starts at the child's home at a very young age. When the young child is becoming to be self-sufficient, they can be passed to a professional to learn. What is being taught needs to be reinforced at home.

This isn't what is happening. Potential reasons:
Some parents don't start at an early age.
Some parents don't help a child become self-sufficient.
Some parents don't reinforce what is being taught in school.
Some teachers see the breakdown in the return on their teaching, and don't try as hard.
Some children aren't as proficient. This becomes cyclical with the next generation.

I realize that many people point to testing. Standardized testing seems pointless. Sure, they give comparable numbers. Look at localities and countries. Their success or failure is the ultimate test of education.

 

[shmogt]

And you think that that is enough to form an informed opinion? I don't understand your resistance to this. I'm giving you the opportunity to learn more, to be better-informed, and you persistently refuse to do it, as if you expeirence trumps any other material. The theories of teaching that I am directing you towards have formed the basis of almost all education worldwide for the better part of a century. Don't you think they might be just a little bit relevant to what you're trying to argue?

Do you even know what an opinion is? The definition basically means to share thoughts bassed on no knowledge or facts. I was nice enough to go through all levels of north American school and have read views/articles of what others have found. Plus I even added two exact opposite styles that are currently working for other countries. I than leaned towards one over the other, but obviously a lot would have to be changed to work for north America.

Theories of teaching is just one small part. The whole system is flawed here. Just list your views on how you think the system could be changed and as many quotes or links to teaching styles as you want for all to read. I am done listening to you complain about the same thing for like 4 pages.

Quote from the OP:

So you didn't literally use the word "all," I'll grant that. Backpedal all you want, but I don't think anybody read that and came away with a different impression than I did.

That's twice now. Are you really that unaware of how insulting you sound with these comments?

Well, I did try very hard ("did" because I no longer teach) and I don't feel like anything you've said has been supportive of teachers. If you're really "fighting" for teachers, re-think how you're saying it. Honestly though, I doubt you are. I think you're just trying to backpedal out of some offensive comments.

Here I can agree with you. Many good teachers are being driven away by a very unstable job market right now, and it's a shame. But this problem can't be looked at strictly as a sign of a bad school system. The state of the economy has been murderous on schools.

Now again, I think you're wandering into territory that only somebody who has actually taught can truly claim to know about. I had plenty of students who responded to me, were great students, and repeatedly told me that I really made class enjoyable for them. Plenty of other students were the polar opposite. In many of those cases, the difference between good student and bad was parental involvement (or lack thereof). Does this explain every student's success or failure? Of course not. But it's definitely a major factor.

People who think they know what they're talking about criticizing our teachers and schools.

If you took offense you shouldn't have. I speak very bold, but I didn't say all teachers becuase I know for a fact it's not all teachers. You are taking it as offensive by yourself for whatever reasons, but I never directly said anything horrible towards them nor did I mean for it to come off that way. There are lots of bad teachers and there are lots of good teachers. I want the bad ones and ones who don't put effort to be out of there so good teachers can come in. I said exactly this and you choose to add words and assumed I must be hating on all teachers.

Students responding to a teacher in a good way your right is kind of fluke. Some will love you some will hate you that's pretty much how it is in life. However kids are like dogs wanting to learn. If the teacher seems happy and has a great attitude towards the subject the majority of kids will respond more positive towards it too. My class on psychology actualy said this exact thing. The test subjects always respond more positive towards positivity. If the teacher is happy, smiling, and trying to make it a good time than the kids will see that and have a more optimistic view on the subject. Of course you will always have a few who don't care know matter what. Could be from home issues, how they were raised, financial lifestyle, a whole list of other factors. Your never gonna be able to reach every kid, but we are talking about the majority here.

 

[Joel]

I don't think the blame can really lie solely on the teachers. From my experiences as a student, teaching is just like any other occupation, there's some people who are very passionate about it, and put a lot of effort in to it. Some don't mind it and are content, putting in good work. Others are unhappy with their career choice and just mail it in all year. There's good teachers, great teachers, and bad ones. Just like police, dentists, doctors, contractors, or any other job you care to mention.

Of course, there's definitely isolated cases where a bad or lazy teacher has significantly impacted a class' learning, but I'd have a hard time believing it's a systematic failure on account of the teachers.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Do you even know what an opinion is? The definition basically means to share thoughts bassed on no knowledge or facts.

No, it's not: "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty". There is some allowance for not knowing all of the relevant infomation, but it's not a substitute for knowing nothing. And just because you have an opinion, it doesn't mean you cannot or should not find out more.

Beware the cautionary tale of Lamar Smith. He did not understand the internet, but he saw a problem with it and tried to fix it without really understanding it. The end result was SOPA. You're doing the same thing - you don't really understand how education works, but because you think there is a problem with it, you're trying to fix it. How on earth are you remotely qualified to pass judgement on how teachers should teach when you yourself are not a teacher and refuse all offers to broaden your knowledge on the subject? Based on your attitude, I'd say the problem is not in how teachers teach, but in how students learn. If you're stupid enough and arrogant enough to believe you know what the answers are when you have consistently demonstrated that you have no idea what the question is, then that's a problem with student attitudes rather than teacher attitudes or educational structure. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[shmogt]

No, it's not: "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty". There is some allowance for not knowing all of the relevant infomation, but it's not a substitute for knowing nothing. And just because you have an opinion, it doesn't mean you cannot or should not find out more.

Beware the cautionary tale of Lamar Smith. He did not understand the internet, but he saw a problem with it and tried to fix it without really understanding it. The end result was SOPA. You're doing the same thing - you don't really understand how education works, but because you think there is a problem with it, you're trying to fix it. How on earth are you remotely qualified to pass judgement on how teachers should teach when you yourself are not a teacher and refuse all offers to broaden your knowledge on the subject? Based on your attitude, I'd say the problem is not in how teachers teach, but in how students learn. You're stupid enough and arrogant enough to believe you know what the answers are when you have consistently demonstrated that you have no idea what the question is. I'd say that's a problem with student attitudes rather than teacher attitudes or educational structure, wouldn't you?

Lol your definition is the same as mine. I still don't see your point. I didn't try to fix anything. I am not going to petition anything. It doesn't really matter whether anything changes or not to me since I'm out of school. I'm just giving alternatives views. I didn't like the way things were run and I especially don't like that no money is being out towards education. Last I heard in America a serious amount of schools were built on toxic grounds and kids were getting sick. Stuff like that shouldn't even be a problem. Clearly when kids are present any toxic grounds are not a good idea to out kids.

For the millionth time this is only my opinion, not any sort of answer. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject. Also students learn what you teach them. If they have bad attitudes they learned it from somewhere since they are not born that way.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I didn't try to fix anything.

Then why did you suggest that America adopt the Finnish education system as a solution to the problem? It's strange that you should accuse me of being out of touch with the American education system because I'm not American when you yourself are Canadian.

Last I heard in America a serious amount of schools were built on toxic grounds and kids were getting sick. Stuff like that shouldn't even be a problem. Clearly when kids are present any toxic grounds are not a good idea to out kids.

There is only one documented case of that, the Love Canal disaster. And that was mostly because the local council denied that there was a problem and refused to do anything about it. If it was as common as you claim it is, then surely someone would have noticed by now. Not just you.

For the millionth time this is only my opinion, not any sort of answer. Just sharing my thoughts on the subject.

And yet, you have the opportunity to broaden your knowledge of the subject, and therefore be able to develop your opinion further. I still have no idea why you refuse to do this.

If they have bad attitudes they learned it from somewhere since they are not born that way.

Do you think it's more likely that they learn that attitude from parents or from teachers?

 

[Stavelot]

I love how shmogt says he took 3 English classes but his English, sentence structure, spelling and grammar is horrible

 

[Scaff]

Why don't you stop being a baby and speak like an adult with the rest of us.

Talk to any member like that again and it will be the last thing you do on the site.

You already have a membership record overflowing with warnings and infractions, and as such should know that insults and abuse are not how you discuss a subject.

You will not be warned again, you will simply be gone.

Scaff

 

[XoravaX]

So I am getting that you like the system there, but it still has it's flaws?

Yeah, the system itself is fine, while some of its (and the whole welfare system's) consequences aren't good. Like the high taxes.

And the best learners bore to death during the lessons in elementary and junior high as the teaching goes by the slower learners.

 

[shmogt]

Then why did you suggest that America adopt the Finnish education system as a solution to the problem? It's strange that you should accuse me of being out of touch with the American education system because I'm not American when you yourself are Canadian.

There is only one documented case of that, the Love Canal disaster. And that was mostly because the local council denied that there was a problem and refused to do anything about it. If it was as common as you claim it is, then surely someone would have noticed by now. Not just you.

And yet, you have the opportunity to broaden your knowledge of the subject, and therefore be able to develop your opinion further. I still have no idea why you refuse to do this.

Do you think it's more likely that they learn that attitude from parents or from teachers?

It's just an idea. I asked what do others think. I could of said send all the kids to south Korea for the year to learn in school. I could of said build a moon school and have the kids study there. I can say literally anything that pops into my head as to something that may work. Just disagree and list why or also agree and list why. You are the only one who refuses to participate.

In the start I used US system because all the stats I read we're on it so I figured to keep it more factual I will say US. All through out I have been saying north American because our system is very similar.

There is way more than one case. The building themselves were built on toxic grounds because they were old machine shops etc. Places where chemicals were very present. I thiiiiink it was in New York that has lots of buildings already so when somewhere would close the city would buy or lease the building and move a school in. They had to close a few already and move the kids. It's not like a huge thing where every kid is deathly sick, it's where only some kids get sick and I heard one teacher was forced to retire since she got very sick. It was all over the news not to long ago here in north America.

Anything I say here is just opinion and having a fun discussion with others to see how they feel on this issue. I have no power to change the system. I was never planning on doing that. If I happen to hear more info I'll post it, but I'm not gonna learn every possible detail on learning structure and how each school board conducts itself etc. I just don't have time to become the worlds greatest expert on this. If you want to post some links to an article or something please do I'll take a read.

Kids learning (and this is just my opinion lol) is slightly more from school than it would be parenting. At 5 kids start school. parents talught them until that. After that most of the learning is from school and mainly the friends in school. School has the social aspect and the education aspect so I would assume kids learn more there.

I love how shmogt says he took 3 English classes but his English, sentence structure, spelling and grammar is horrible

Lol this isn't a formal essay. It's just an Internet forum. I type how I would say it to you here.

Talk to any member like that again and it will be the last thing you do on the site.

You already have a membership record overflowing with warnings and infractions, and as such should know that insults and abuse are not how you discuss a subject.

You will not be warned again, you will simply be gone.

Scaff

Lol are you serious? The guy tells me how stupid I am in every sentence just for voicing my thoughts and I tell him to participate in the discussion and I risk being banned. Every post I say tells him to list his facts so everyone can read. It's a discussion for all it doesn't make sense that just me should be doing all this reading.

Yeah, the system itself is fine, while some of its (and the whole welfare system's) consequences aren't good. Like the high taxes.

And the best learners bore to death during the lessons in elementary and junior high as the teaching goes by the slower learners.

Lol ya free school I'm sure make taxes very high. I'm not sure if you listed it in the previous post, but if I went to the store to buy a TV for example how much tax would be on that. Here it would be 13% which is kind of steep.

 

[Scaff]

Lol are you serious? The guy tells me how stupid I am in every sentence just for voicing my thoughts and I tell him to participate in the discussion and I risk being banned. Every post I say tells him to list his facts so everyone can read. It's a discussion for all it doesn't make sense that just me should be doing all this reading.

Lets change every sentence to once shall we!

That's also an aside, I'm talking about you posts and your conduct and your history.

The choice is simple, you follow the AUP or the staff will take action and with you track record that action will be a ban.


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[Jubby]

And the best learners bore to death during the lessons in elementary and junior high as the teaching goes by the slower learners.

Thank you! I forgot that point. The US has the No Child Left Behind Act. It's theory is well intended, but what it really should be called is "Let all the gifted and talented students get less intelligent in public schools while we use more and more of our resources to teach the children that don't want to learn". I wonder if I can get that down to a catch acronym.

Before I get the counter point that speaks to the impoverished kids, I don't discount that. I've gone to two totally different schools in two different areas of the country and they're the same. One was very poor socioeconomically and the other was middle class. That was before the NCLBA. I cannot imagine what it's like today in school with that.

The guy tells me how stupid I am in every sentence just for voicing my thoughts and I tell him to participate in the discussion and I risk being banned. Every post I say tells him to list his facts so everyone can read. It's a discussion for all it doesn't make sense that just me should be doing all this reading.

I believe prisoner was showing how your idea has flaws and how you may be acting stupid. Revealing that someone is acting idiotic through point and counter-point is different that calling someone an idiot.

I don't mean this with any hostility, but just as a helpful observation: Want to outsmart someone? Actually do it. I've learned that from experience, anyone makes themselves look like a fool when they try and fail miserably. (Fitting for an education thread!)

 

[huskeR32]

Revealing that someone is acting idiotic through point and counter-point is different that calling someone an idiot.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[shmogt]

Lets change every sentence to once shall we!

That's also an aside, I'm talking about you posts and your conduct and your history.

The choice is simple, you follow the AUP or the staff will take action and with you track record that action will be a ban.


Scaff

Wait are you saying since I already have so many infractions I will be banned like literally one more of anything? Or are you saying I will be banned for this one thing if it continues?

Thank you! I forgot that point. The US has the No Child Left Behind Act. It's theory is well intended, but what it really should be called is "Let all the gifted and talented students get less intelligent in public schools while we use more and more of our resources to teach the children that don't want to learn". I wonder if I can get that down to a catch acronym.

Before I get the counter point that speaks to the impoverished kids, I don't discount that. I've gone to two totally different schools in two different areas of the country and they're the same. One was very poor socioeconomically and the other was middle class. That was before the NCLBA. I cannot imagine what it's like today in school with that.



I believe prisoner was showing how your idea has flaws and how you may be acting stupid. Revealing that someone is acting idiotic through point and counter-point is different that calling someone an idiot.

I don't mean this with any hostility, but just as a helpful observation: Want to outsmart someone? Actually do it. I've learned that from experience, anyone makes themselves look like a fool when they try and fail miserably. (Fitting for an education thread!)

This is what I don't understand tho because I said it's just an idea. It wasn't really my idea either I just happened to see a couple of choices that are working better for other countries and decided to choose one over the other. If he doesn't like it fine he can disagree and provide info as to why like everyone else. Instead he keeps implying that I know nothing about how the North American education system works and should never of even spoken on this topic. Lot's of people who have posted simple said how there school life was for them. Should they also not be qualified enough to say that?

He always implies that I am dumb and directly called me stupid which he has now edited. Although I didn't see anyone tell him to keep it clean. I keep trying not to argue with him and said this is just how my life was and said maybe something like this would be more efficient.

There is nothing to prove to make him wrong I don't care if my idea is not the way to go. He is blowing it way out of proportion. Every time I respond I say the same thing. It's just my opinion which I think North America could learn from and that's it. If it's totally wrong, whatever just list why or provide info to something better. I'm not gonna fix the system nor have ever planned to. I just wanted to see other peoples views on this. Do you think it needs to be changed? How can it change? What are some issues you have with it? etc.

 

[Scaff]

Wait are you saying since I already have so many infractions I will be banned like literally one more of anything? Or are you saying I will be banned for this one thing if it continues?

The PM you got for your last infraction made it quite clear that you are on last chance status here. One more AUP violation and your done, more than enough chances have been given to you and the staff have only so much patience for being ignored.

Quite frankly if half a dozen warnings and infractions are not enough to get across the message that the AUP is not optional, then I really don't see any other next step.

Its quite simple, what to stay here as a member then follow the AUP, fail to do so and we will act accordingly. The choice is yours not ours, but I strongly suggest that if you wish to stay then you ensure that every post you make follows the AUP (strangely enough exactly the same as we ask of every member - but most get the idea a lot more quickly).


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[XoravaX]

Lol ya free school I'm sure make taxes very high. I'm not sure if you listed it in the previous post, but if I went to the store to buy a TV for example how much tax would be on that. Here it would be 13% which is kind of steep.

23% I suppose, and that's for everything from furniture to firearms (w/ exceptions - see next). Food has 13% and restaurants, barbershops etc only 8% to keep up small businesses in the countryside. The car taxing is by far worse; a Ferrari F430 which cost about €180k in Germany cost €310k in Finland due to the taxes. Now they are going to rise the car taxes more since the previous tax overhaul reduced the taxes for those with under 200g emissions (and rose them for those with over 200g), which led to tax income drop due to majority of sold new cars being those with the lowered taxes. With the new taxes, F430 would have cost around €340k.
That's probably the worst side of the free education system, and we don't even have free healthcare (costs are only 1/5 in public healthcare compared to the price of a private healthcare). Also, those in schools get free healthcare as do all children.

The worst money drain in people's opinion is the income support for those without job and who don't even want to get a job (IMO government should stop paying it for those who could but don't want to work). Furthermore, even people who have the right to live permanently in Finland and do so are entitled to partial social security system (lowered cost healthcare, income support etc) if needed even if they aren't Finnish citizens. That's is the main complaining point of the conservative and anti-socialist parties too.



But anyway, in my opinion separating people by their speed of learning at school would be the wrong thing to do as teachers would start getting bored of the lessons with the slower learners.

 

[Pupik]

The US has the No Child Left Behind Act. It's theory is well intended, but what it really should be called is "Let all the gifted and talented students get less intelligent in public schools while we use more and more of our resources to teach the children that don't want to learn". I wonder if I can get that down to a catch acronym.

My wife, mother, and sister — all of them teachers — agree the acronym for that is FUCT.

Private schools can both hand pick or exclude the students they wish to keep. The tuition costs virtually ensure that the parents are a lot more involved in their students' education. Public schools have few of those luxuries; they have to accept every child that is in their school boundaries, short of those who are home-schooled, have been expelled or sent to some sort of juvenile detention center.

America is composed of many cultures, races, traditions, and thus, opinions about the way families and individuals feel about their education. There's no way a one-size-fits-all method of education is going to work for everyone; the bell curve is going to generally take hold, grade-wise, and not every student is motivated, interested, mentally-equipped for secondary education. Not everyone needs to go to college, let alone become accepted to a top-tier university, there are plenty of jobs that do not require college education.

It isn't helped by children that misbehave, with little to no repercussions from the school (and probably very little punishment from the parents), which is disruptive. Parents do not understand they have to spend more time disciplining or gaining the attentions of the few outliers which take up more time for the same unit of instructional time. On the other side of the coin, many schools treat kids like criminals, many have a rigid basis for a learning environment, and few teachers are even permitted to expand the minds of kids past the boundaries of the state/local curriculum, lest their test scores become weak in math and suddenly strong in creative areas of art, music, and social skills of which report cards cannot truly grade nor be classified within a report. A state educational cabinet simply cannot trumpet intangible results to textbook manufacturers.

Teachers have to spend more time on the paperwork and "workshop" meetings which do little to motivate them to tell them how they should better perform their job. They have to live in fear of a parent accusing them of touching their kid inappropriately if they had fallen down in a hallway. Parents try to bully them into giving better grades to their kids, no parent is resigned admit their kid is just average (or worse, unless a hasty label can be attached to them). They are also graded and checked upon constantly by administrative staff, just to make sure that standards are kept. School boards are full of inept people that mostly have never taught, nor attended college, but are products of cost-cutting, belt-tightening, contracts, unions, lowest-bidder consequences, and no happier working in a soulless office building.

This isn't even getting to the politics of it all. I'm not going to pretend any simple executive sound bite nor trite statement rushed into a campaign stump speech is going to resolve diddly-squat. Education starts and finishes at home, it's important everyone has the right to it, but tough crap in turn for those who try to subvert (this means everyone from careless parents, politicians, board personnel, teachers, and rouge students) the responsibility of all contained in the education system. A stupid populace is worthless; a bunch of media empires that seem to do its best to promote idiocy, that knowledge can only be gained by throwing money into the latest thing, that beauty can only be downloaded or seen on a red carpet, that experience comes in a box, only intelligent people buy This Product, that intelligence, experience, and wisdom isn't cool, that old people and history are disposable commodities, and that rewarding the screw-ups is part of our national identity. Thank goodness our Creator or Ourselves or Mankind or Gaia has granted us the power and a lifetime to discern the differences, however beautifully and imperfectly.

/late-braking into-hairpin rant, expecting a murder of crows to dissect this with questions I can't really answer.

 

[Jubby]

Every time I respond I say the same thing.

Respectfully, that might be the problem. If you would like to defend a point of view in a debate, bring up more than 1 point. If there's nothing to defend, then don't defend it. If you realize that you cannot defend your point enough or to the other side's satisfaction, either continue to counter-point, or stop debating it. You don't have to change your opinion, but you'll want to at least acknowledge their side and validate what is true about their opinion.

It's just my opinion which I think North America could learn from and that's it. If it's totally wrong, whatever just list why or provide info to something better. I'm not gonna fix the system nor have ever planned to. I just wanted to see other peoples views on this. Do you think it needs to be changed? How can it change? What are some issues you have with it? etc.

Right, it is your opinion. Some are more aware on the subject than others. I think teachers would be quite aware, as they need to learn about teaching... not just what they're teaching (as they usually already know it). Other points made in this thread have been very valid... so your thread is having some positive impact.

My wife, mother, and sister — all of them teachers — agree the acronym for that is FUCT.

Thank you... that was good for a bust out loud laugh!

America is composed of many cultures, races, traditions, and thus, opinions about the way families and individuals feel about their education...A state educational cabinet simply cannot trumpet intangible results to textbook manufacturers.

Very well put... I wonder how we can work on fixing it. It's certainly a long road, isn't it?

 

[shmogt]

The PM you got for your last infraction made it quite clear that you are on last chance status here. One more AUP violation and your done, more than enough chances have been given to you and the staff have only so much patience for being ignored.

Quite frankly if half a dozen warnings and infractions are not enough to get across the message that the AUP is not optional, then I really don't see any other next step.

Its quite simple, what to stay here as a member then follow the AUP, fail to do so and we will act accordingly. The choice is yours not ours, but I strongly suggest that if you wish to stay then you ensure that every post you make follows the AUP (strangely enough exactly the same as we ask of every member - but most get the idea a lot more quickly).

Scaff

I don't have that many infractions. Once I got one for txt talk which I didn't know at the time was wrong. Than I got one for some sort of fake swearing thing which I thought was better than actually writing the word. They told me it blurs it so I can just type it next time. Than I made the mistake again which was my fault. All the others since those were total fluke. Got txt talk because I didn't put a comma in one of my sentences. That one really made me mad because I purposely didn't put it. I also got one for telling a kid to leave my thread even tho the kid was out right making fun of me (I guess similar to this lol) and the worst part was another mod said don't worry he will clean it up. So I got that infraction while my thread was locked to take out all the guys negative comments by another mod. If I get one now for just being myself and having a voice what's the point of even being here (don't take that as I want to go lol). I'm trying to have a discussion and mainly read what others views are. That's all I want to do

If I have to defend myself than I will answer. I'm just trying to have fun with everyone and answering any questions that people have. The baby thing is the one time I snapped. Like 5 pages of the same guy saying the same thing to me a guy who clearly doesn't care what he has to say, I think is pretty good. In real life I would of snapped on him the first second, but I'm keeping it cool to abide by the rules.

23% I suppose, and that's for everything from furniture to firearms (w/ exceptions - see next). Food has 13% and restaurants, barbershops etc only 8% to keep up small businesses in the countryside. The car taxing is by far worse; a Ferrari F430 which cost about €180k in Germany cost €310k in Finland due to the taxes. Now they are going to rise the car taxes more since the previous tax overhaul reduced the taxes for those with under 200g emissions (and rose them for those with over 200g), which led to tax income drop due to majority of sold new cars being those with the lowered taxes. With the new taxes, F430 would have cost around €340k.
That's probably the worst side of the free education system, and we don't even have free healthcare (costs are only 1/5 in public healthcare compared to the price of a private healthcare). Also, those in schools get free healthcare as do all children.

The worst money drain in people's opinion is the income support for those without job and who don't even want to get a job (IMO government should stop paying it for those who could but don't want to work). Furthermore, even people who have the right to live permanently in Finland and do so are entitled to partial social security system (lowered cost healthcare, income support etc) if needed even if they aren't Finnish citizens. That's is the main complaining point of the conservative and anti-socialist parties too.

But anyway, in my opinion separating people by their speed of learning at school would be the wrong thing to do as teachers would start getting bored of the lessons with the slower learners.

WOW that's a lot of tax. That's literally like mind blowing amounts more on the Ferrari. Usually when tax and cost of living is high the job wage is also high tho. Like in Canada a waitress gets paid less than minimum wage because she makes extra money in tips. Since everything is so much more expensive she gets around $10 an hour plus tips. My friend lives in Texas and is a waitress there and she said she makes around $3 an hour plus tips. Their tax on things is only 4% and 8% on anything over $100. So it kind of works itself out.

Separating kids in the same class ya would slow it down a lot. They could move the really smart kids up to the next level tho. That way it would be more even. They used to do that a lot here, but for some reason I have only heard of kids failing and never being bumped up a grade in the last 15yrs.

 

[Lizard]

Haha i know where your coming from mate , its all down to the kids nowaday i mean who wants to learn when they can sit on there backsides playing pc ps3 ect ect then come of age sign on at job centre .

Wastnt that the education system was poor just that nobody gave a flying 🤬

So your blaming me? There are things that happend that you dont know about.

 

[Scaff]

I don't have that many infractions. Once I got one for txt talk which I didn't know at the time was wrong. Than I got one for some sort of fake swearing thing which I thought was better than actually writing the word. They told me it blurs it so I can just type it next time. Than I made the mistake again which was my fault. All the others since those were total fluke. Got txt talk because I didn't put a comma in one of my sentences. That one really made me mad because I purposely didn't put it. I also got one for telling a kid to leave my thread even tho the kid was out right making fun of me (I guess similar to this lol) and the worst part was another mod said don't worry he will clean it up. So I got that infraction while my thread was locked to take out all the guys negative comments by another mod. If I get one now for just being myself and having a voice what's the point of even being here (don't take that as I want to go lol). I'm trying to have a discussion and mainly read what others views are. That's all I want to do

If I have to defend myself than I will answer. I'm just trying to have fun with everyone and answering any questions that people have. The baby thing is the one time I snapped. Like 5 pages of the same guy saying the same thing to me a guy who clearly doesn't care what he has to say, I think is pretty good. In real life I would of snapped on him the first second, but I'm keeping it cool to abide by the rules.

I'm more than aware of your infraction history, I read it before issuing the warning in thread, the entire history is recorded and the staff have access to it.

That you consider it to be only a small number of infractions is totally irrelevant, you have no idea how many infractions is 'normal' before a ban, I however do and I don't consider it a small number.

Its also a history that clearly indicates a member who has little regard for the AUP and as such little regard for the site and its other members (who do follow the AUP).

Its also not a topic for public discussion, in fact its not a topic for discussion at all.

Its quite simple either you follow the AUP whenever you post or you will be gone. I strongly suggest that you both drop the topic and follow my advise.

That a strongly suggest as in make sure you do it now.


Scaff