Education system

[shmogt]

Teachers were students once, y'know. They have the benefit of knowing how it works from both sides, and their opinions are much more valid than those of students.

Most of the teachers I encountered raised 2 kids had, well little to no experience outside their institutional environment, so I'd say that 'benefit of knowing' is less then you think. Sure the opinions of a kid might not mean much but some real world experience sure does.

That is true. However teachers have no control over what they teach. The boards do and that is what needs to change. Some of the old policies that are still in place are crazy. It doesn't have to be a huge system change like I gave some suggestions on to how before, but at least try to step it up to the current level. Every time a listen to the news is about budget cuts on education. For me that is unacceptable and should be the very last place to make cuts.

 

[arora]

TBH what I mostly saw, and fought, was the indoctrination attitude(2+2 could equal 5 just as long as you hug a few trees) anyway that is my rant. As for old policy, could be the case but in reality the only way to fix education in the u.s. is to privatize.

 

[Slash]

As far as I'm aware, the learning standards in North America (or at least Canada) is at least 2 grades lower than the international standard. So if you are learning how to divide in Grade 6 (or 6th Grade as the Americans call it), you are already 2 years behind.

The education that I am receiving at the moment is extremely dumbed-down. You can't just "know," for example, that 5 yards = 15 feet, you need to show it step-by-step:

5yd x (3ft/1yd) = 15 feet.

It's pretty irritating.

And no one kid in America really cares about any of that and most wishes school didn't exist and see it as a prison. Some don't, but most do.

 

[Liquid]

Some don't, but most do.

Opinion =/= Fact, but I do see what you mean. There is far too much apathy towards learning amongst young people. Those who don't want to try, really don't want to. The teachers have to pull out all the stops to motivate these children, and when the pupils still don't give a flying and never will, the parents often complain. That's what it's like where I work anyway.

Fact is though, you're at school there to learn. Get over your life story, keep your head down and earn your grades. Hindsight is beautiful, so when most adults tell you how important it is to learn, you damn well better listen. Otherwise get used to empty bags of Cheetos scattered around the floor of your one room flat.

Generic 'you'. Not a personal attack.

 

[Keef]

So to my idea of fundamental reforms:

1 - Provide traditional universal education only to those who really want it and are willing to apply themselves to it. This will be about 50%.

2 - To the remainder, offer training in agriculture, animal husbandry, shop skills and the manual trades. Again, only for those who earnestly want it.

I don't know man. I've learned more about how the world works on my own than I ever have in public school and in college. Besides my core classes, all they're teaching me is stuff that I don't need to know to fly an airplane. Besides that, they should be teaching me how the world works, and what is morality, and what is money, and what is life, liberty, and property, and how does this government actually work, and what the heck is government anyway, and how do I keep them in check so I can stay free and why should I worry about that, etc. Stuff that actually matters. Hell, that's even more important than my core studies because if I'm not free to work the job I want then what the hell use is it learning to do that job.

My biggest complaint is that they don't teach us the stuff that actually matters, that makes the world go around, and that affects every single person on the planet. They should teach us how to communicate and solve problems at a young age, and then once we have that core knowledge they should teach us how to analyze the world around us until we understand it, and then after we're aware of the stuff that actually matters we can start doing all this algebra and chemistry or ground school and get a job. Then we wouldn't have all these people in the world who are completely oblivious to it but sure as hell can plumb you a new bathroom like it was magic.

 

[Exorcet]

Opinion =/= Fact, but I do see what you mean. There is far too much apathy towards learning amongst young people. Those who don't want to try, really don't want to. The teachers have to pull out all the stops to motivate these children, and when the pupils still don't give a flying and never will, the parents often complain. That's what it's like where I work anyway.

Yeah I agree, motivating students would go a long way, if only there was an easy method. If school was "that place that helps you achieve your dream" and not "that place that holds you for hours and forces you to listen to boring people" I feel a lot of issues would go away.

Besides my core classes, all they're teaching me is stuff that I don't need to know to fly an airplane. Besides that, they should be teaching me how the world works, and what is morality, and what is money, and what is life, liberty, and property, and how does this government actually work, and what the heck is government anyway, and how do I keep them in check so I can stay free and why should I worry about that, etc.

This is very true. Having to deal with various classes that were completely pointless doesn't make me feel that my time is being used well. Admittedly, there probably were some good classes mixed into the required humanities and history classes that I had to take despite going for an engineering degree, and I actually did end up taking some, but if they're going to mandate classes that have nothing to do with your degree, they should at the very least put the important classes that have real world usefulness at the front and center. I've probably learned more about Roman and Viking government than the US government.

 

[Keef]

The history classes I've taken were cool except that they were totally bogus. I don't give a crap about visible history, the stuff you find in a text book. I want the backstory. You can't understand the way the world works without understanding the way the world worked. The only sort of history that actually matters is precisely the sort of stuff they don't teach you until you get to the graduate level (I assume at least, because at least a few people out there know that part).

Take the arguments we have here about morality and government and human rights and all that. I've never scratched the surface of any of that in school. As a legal adult, I feel like I should have known all of that before I was even able to make adult decisions. To curb ignorance we have to teach the important stuff to kids before they're old enough to make important decisions that require that critical knowledge of the world. We also have to impart the vast importance of this knowledge and create a deep interest in it so maybe they won't still require 3 months of bullcrap every summer by the time they get to high school. If the kids actually want to learn about the world then they wouldn't want to spend those three months forgetting everything.

 

[arora]

A shame the parents don't do their job Keef, as I see it anway. Ignorance seems to be king, but ya know I got my kids in plenty of trouble when they'd ask the questions.. "but my dad said"

 

[Keef]

Parents are doing their thing - turning their kids to idiots. At least the baby boomers who spent their lives in the GM factory. How do you think we got into the mess we're in? They're the one who voted for it, not me.

 

[shmogt]

Oh very good point about teaching things that actually matter. Even if they continued with the normal program and just added some actual life stuff it would be very helpful. Math class for example should teach you about how to file taxes properly, gym class should teach the basics of nutrition, basically classes that teach the subject should include basic "how to's" of life.

For example I went to school for graphic design and it had a little web design. I definitely learned how to design things and how to create very basic websites, but they should of also taught pricing. People would ask for things and I have no idea if what I was charging is a crazy high price or fair. They forced us to take random elective classes which are total money grab scams since they do not help at all with your program, but why not get rid of those dumb easy classes and replace them with basic knowledge of the business classes. When I went to make a website I could make it fine, but I had to learn myself about how to get it listed in Google and how to use social networking sites effectively. Very simple things that would make it a lot easier once your out in the real world.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm coming from students perspective and you the teachers.

Then would you care to explain why you are calling for teachers to do more to engage students because those students demand more-challenging work in one thread, but in another thread you are giving students advice on how to dodge work and cheat on assignments?

 

[shmogt]

Then would you care to explain why you are calling for teachers to do more to engage students because those students demand more-challenging work in one thread, but in another thread you are giving students advice on how to dodge work and cheat on assignments?

Lol because the work is easy now. Mine as well just cheat on it and enjoy your day than spending hours on a useless assignment.

Would you finally answer one of my questions being are you fighting me because you feel the North American education system is perfect the way it is or are you agreeing with me in that there is definite room for improvement?

 

[Liquid]

Lol because the work is easy now. Mine* as well just cheat on it and enjoy your day than spending hours on a useless assignment

*Might

I hope it's not an English test.

 

[shmogt]

*Might

I hope it's not an English test.

1 mark deducted. Still good enough to pass.

Seriously tho if an assignment is worth like 30% obviously do not take any chances. However sometimes the assignments are like three page essays that are worth 5%. Worst is when it's near the end of the semester and all your classes have huge projects all worth very high amounts than a random class gives you one of these small assignments. Just get that worthless assignment over as quick as you can so you can go back to focusing in the big projects.

 

[1241Penguin]

And no one kid in America really cares about any of that and most wishes school didn't exist and see it as a prison. Some don't, but most do.

Many students, in my school at least, do care about their marks. But there are also some students who'd rather get a head start on a relationship than plan a more, realistic future.

As mentioned before, it's simply due to the lack of motivation. The way I see it, students don't want to do work because they can see no relation between it and real life, which, often or not, isn't true at all. They can see more "fun" things to do.

More worryingly though, I've noticed that a lot those who are absolute crap at school are also the ones who are hooked all day onto video games. And they are damn good at gaming.

 

[Tesla]

Take the arguments we have here about morality and government and human rights and all that. I've never scratched the surface of any of that in school. As a legal adult, I feel like I should have known all of that before I was even able to make adult decisions. To curb ignorance we have to teach the important stuff to kids before they're old enough to make important decisions that require that critical knowledge of the world. We also have to impart the vast importance of this knowledge and create a deep interest in it so maybe they won't still require 3 months of bullcrap every summer by the time they get to high school. If the kids actually want to learn about the world then they wouldn't want to spend those three months forgetting everything.

I've learnt more from this sub-forum and further study into the issues that are being discussed than I do at school. I prefer learning about real-life topics over something that is being taught for the sake of being taught with very little relevance to the world outside of school. Of course some subjects (such as most of English, except for film analysis) I find useful to know as I use them every day when I'm typing or writing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Lol because the work is easy now. Mine as well just cheat on it and enjoy your day than spending hours on a useless assignment.

If students are openly cheating on their assignments, how does that mean they are ready for a greater challenge? Surely if they are cheating now, they will cheat when presented with more challenging work.

Would you finally answer one of my questions being are you fighting me because you feel the North American education system is perfect the way it is or are you agreeing with me in that there is definite room for improvement?

Neither. I'm disagreeing with you because I think you're an idiot. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. You're acting as if you speak for all schools and students in America, but you're basing all of your arguments on your own, limited experience. And when presented with the opportunity to expand your knowledge, you refuse. Here's your chance to say "You know, I can see how how Lev Vygotsky's Zone of Proximal Development is used in the classroom, but I don't think it works because of this, this and this". But instead, you claim you don't need to know any of that. If you have no idea how teachers teach, then how can you argue that teaching is ineffective?

Like I said, let's say you went to school in Miami, and all your arguments are based on what you experienced in one school there. With that in mind, please answer the following questions:

1) How on earth is what you experienced representative of what other students in the school experienced?
2) How on earth is what you experienced representative of what other students in the city experienced?
3) How on earth is what you experienced representative of what other students in the state experienced?
4) How on earth is what you experienced representative of what other students in another state experienced?
5) How on earth is what you experienced representative of what other students in rural areas experienced?
6) How on earth is what you experienced representative of what other students in other cities experienced?
7) How on earth is what you experienced representative of what other students on the other side of the country experienced?

The bottom line is that I think you and your posts can best be summarised with the expression "empty vessels make the most sound". And by that, I mean people who know nothing about a particular subject are often the ones who talk about it the most. You have consistently demonstrated that you don't know anything about the education system beyond your own, very limited experiences. And yet, you seem to think that you are the most qualified to "fix" it. No doubt a future in politics beckons, but for now you should either put up or shut up. Because if you don't, you're just going to embarass yourself further.

 

[Grand Prix]

If students are openly cheating on their assignments, how does that mean they are ready for a greater challenge? Surely if they are cheating now, they will cheat when presented with more challenging work.


Neither. I'm disagreeing with you because I think you're an idiot.

Is that really needed?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Yes.

Let's say I started a discussion on American politics. And in that discussion, I said "no Republican can be trusted". Now, I don't know any Republicans. I couldn't name one if you asked me to. In fact, I don't even know what makes a Republican a Republican. But I still stick to the belief that Republicans cannot be trusted, and make no effort to find out what Republicans stand for - even when invited to by other members of the forum.

What would you think of me then? I'd be an idiot.

In the same way, shmogt has demonstrated that he has no idea how classes are taught. He hasn't read any research on teaching methods, and cannot cite any studies that back up his claims. And when he is invited to broaden his knowledge (something he claims all students are desperate to do and their teachers simply don't recognise it) by a trained professional, he refuses. He hasn't even read up on Lev Vygotsky and Jean Piaget, the two men who shaped modern educational theory with the Zone of Proximal Development and the Theory of Cognitive Development. Nor has he seen Benjamin Bloom's Taxonomy, Kigotho's work on multiliteracies or any of the PISA reports - all of which form a substantial amount of key knowledge in this area. And to top it all off, shmogt is passing judgement on the educational system of an entire continent and claiming he knows what is best based on his experiences several years ago in a single American high school. He then goes into another thread and encourages students to cheat in their assignments when they think the work is too difficult despite claiming here that all students crave a greater challenge.

So, is it really needed?

Absolutely.

 

[Grand Prix]

Let me rephrase that: Was it necessary to insult him?

 

[Pupik]

Let me rephrase that: Was it necessary to insult him?

...oh sorry, I was listening to the morning birds chirp outside.

You're right, Gilles Villeneuve was a great driver.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Let me rephrase that: Was it necessary to insult him?

Did you not read my previous post?

shmogt has no idea what he is talking about. If he had any sense, he would go off and actually read up on the likes of Vygotsky and Piaget and Bloom, and he wouldn't post again in this topic until he had done so. I've already highlighted the critical flaws in his argument, which he has refused to address for six months now. All he is going to achieve by posting without doing any basic research is embarass himself even more than he has already.

Until he does demonstrate that he knows what he is talking about, this thread should probably be locked.

 

[Submerged]

About a teacher who had a different, offhanded style of teaching

I had a similar style of teacher, in the sense of a boring, monotone voice while she was talking about her subject (Psychology). I did the same like you, basically just railed against her and "blamed" her for my lower than expected grades as the year before, I had a more engaging teacher who kept our attention and asked pointed questions. However, the boring, monotone'd voiced teacher was insanely intelligent and really did know her stuff, you just had to really pay attention to find that out which was pretty hard work.

Since then, I realised that even though I did have a passion for Psychology while I was in her class, what I should have done was endured the lesson and then read around the subject far more and then started to question her a bit more during the lesson (with useful contributions) itself as it would have broken the flow a bit more and made it more interactive to the students.

A good teacher will adapt and change to fit the students, however if the students doesn't actively do anything and just sit there with eyes glazed over, the teacher can't actually change unless you, the student, start contributing to the lesson either by presenting ideas, facts or opinions to elicit some form of discussion on the topic on hand.

Sometimes with teachers, the feedback loop can get a bit closed down at times due to the amount of teaching that they may have to do. But that is the same for everyone.

 

[Joel]

Yes.

Let's say I started a discussion on American politics. And in that discussion, I said "no Republican can be trusted". Now, I don't know any Republicans. I couldn't name one if you asked me to. In fact, I don't even know what makes a Republican a Republican. But I still stick to the belief that Republicans cannot be trusted, and make no effort to find out what Republicans stand for - even when invited to by other members of the forum.

Inb4 Ron Paul 2012

 

[Liquid]

Inb4 Ron Paul 2012

In before Libertarian party.

 

[Keef]

My feeling is that true libertarians don't subscribe to any party, they simply vote for what is right.

If Omnis were in charge we'd have an Anarcho-capitalism party to blow everybody's mind.

 

[Grand Prix]

Did you not read my previous post?

shmogt has no idea what he is talking about. If he had any sense, he would go off and actually read up on the likes of Vygotsky and Piaget and Bloom, and he wouldn't post again in this topic until he had done so. I've already highlighted the critical flaws in his argument, which he has refused to address for six months now. All he is going to achieve by posting without doing any basic research is embarass himself even more than he has already.

Until he does demonstrate that he knows what he is talking about, this thread should probably be locked.

Yes I have read it.

Regardless of what you may think of him personally, I don't think a personal attack on the young man's intelligence was necessary. Play the game and not the man. If he refuses to co-operate with the debate, no one is forcing you to continue with the nonsense.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

That would require intelligence to attack.

 

[Slash]

Opinion =/= Fact, but I do see what you mean. There is far too much apathy towards learning amongst young people. Those who don't want to try, really don't want to. The teachers have to pull out all the stops to motivate these children, and when the pupils still don't give a flying and never will, the parents often complain. That's what it's like where I work anyway.

This is how it is in most schools, including mine.

 

[arora]

That would require intelligence to attack.

I'll bite, so calling someone an idiot is not attacking their intelligence? Sure you will say it's pointing out a lack of? I really can't follow your anger on this one.

I look at it this way, sure he's a frustrating kid, is this the same way you deal with the ones you encounter in your classes?