End of the road for manual shifters?

[TheCracker]

Automated manual and sequential 'boxes were developed initially for motorsport - it's little wonder that they're the ideal solution for track driving.

Enthusiastic driving on the road can be greatly enhanced if you add in the process of using a good manual gearbox. You're unlikely to be driving at any more than 8/10ths on any given stretch of road for any prolonged period of time, so gaining those valuable 1/10ths of seconds from quicker changes is irrelevant. Especially when the software for these automated gearboxes on road cars is tuned to a wide spectrum of driving situations. In my experience of the VW Group's DSG, it's not hard to wrong foot the electronic brain into stammering for a moment whilst it tries to work out if the driver's going to want an up change or a down change next.

On track you just want gear changes to be as quick and decisive as possible. If you're approaching a corner that you need to change down for, you've got enough on your plate trying to brake as late as possible, keeping the car balanced - or unbalanced if you need some movement at the rear, hitting the right turn-in point, loading the weight up on the outside tyres, carrying as much speed as you can and hitting the apex without unbalancing the car into too much under or over-steer so you can make a clean exit. Add into that a period of time where the drive to the wheels is interrupted by the clutch being engaged, and you're just piling on more opportunity to make a mess of things. A fluffed up change can cost you precious time, but a fluffed down change can easily see you spinning off.

 

[05XR8]

I did get to ride in a '12 R35 around a track. That's is a car that needs that transmission. I feel a manual would actually lesson its current performance.

I can say the same for something like an '80s Cressida. I drove a manual version and an automatic. From memory, the auto felt floaty. The manual felt hunkered down.

 

[niky]

I wonder if it's possible to manually shift an electric car? If you had an electric motor hooked up to a conventional gearbox, maybe it would work? I dunno.

Torque is probably too much for a regular gearbox to handle an electric motor, and it would add weight onto all of the batteries as well.

Electric sports cars have trouble with broken gearboxes... but more humdrum daily-use EVs don't. But since electric motors have such a wide range of speed, there's no real necessity to use more than one or two gears... economy gains simply don't outweigh the loss of efficiency from having a more complex, heavier gearbox as opposed to a direct drive or planetary drive.

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Still, it can be done. Torque-induced gearbox stress can be mitigated by simply limiting output in lower gears in exactly the same way some manufacturers limit torque in the first two or three gears on a number of conventional performance engines with manual gearboxes.

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If you have a sensor attached to the manual shifter and the proper algorithm, you can theoretically have the engine spin up or down to the exact rpm required for a clutchless shift into the next gear. Meaning you get the control and simplicity of a manual gearbox without the need for a clutch pedal.

 

[LM7325]

I get to drive the worst manu-matic currently for sale here. Two Fiestas, a '15 and a '16. The '15 is approaching 30k miles, the '16 is still basically new.

It is amazing how different the two feel. Miles have not been kind at all it seems. It was fine when I drove it, I put the first 15k on it almost exclusively. Now it feels all clunky, rough engagement, dim witted etc... The '16 will probably get that way even sooner, I rarely drive around any more with my new position.

If I could order a manual I would in a heartbeat. My fleet lease provider pretty much laughed at the notion when I attempted that.

 

[homeforsummer]

I wonder if it's possible to manually shift an electric car? If you had an electric motor hooked up to a conventional gearbox, maybe it would work? I dunno.

Torque is probably too much for a regular gearbox to handle an electric motor, and it would add weight onto all of the batteries as well.

Still, it can be done. Torque-induced gearbox stress can be mitigated by simply limiting output in lower gears in exactly the same way some manufacturers limit torque in the first two or three gears on a number of conventional performance engines with manual gearboxes.

I've driven one.

Was an interesting, and not unpleasant sensation. Basically only second and third are required, and broadly speaking you can leave it in third the entire time because the electric motor has more than enough torque to pull the gear's entire range. Second is only really for very quick getaways. First would probably just spin the tyres and fourth is an overdrive, which isn't as relevant for EVs as it is for combustion engines.

Anyway, it required an interesting technique. Not quite flat-shifting, but if you lifted off the gas and reapplied it after changing gear (you still have to use the clutch) the change would be quite clunky, as the electric motor has no inertia - as soon as you lift off it stops spinning. So you have to keep the pedal applied during a change so it's more or less turning at the same rate when you engage the next gear.

In a classic Beetle, I found it quite entertaining, and it all added to the character. As did the mega-fast two-speed manual shift of EV West's 400bhp electric M3 that I got a passenger ride in. Think that was a custom gearbox though.

But the ease of use of direct-drive EVs still has its own appeal. Keeping a standard manual transmission is more a matter of mechanical simplicity when doing a conversion, but a reduction gear transmission as used in most EVs is the ideal setup.

 

[Aerocoupe]

I get to drive the worst manu-matic currently for sale here. Two Fiestas, a '15 and a '16. The '15 is approaching 30k miles, the '16 is still basically new.

It is amazing how different the two feel. Miles have not been kind at all it seems. It was fine when I drove it, I put the first 15k on it almost exclusively. Now it feels all clunky, rough engagement, dim witted etc... The '16 will probably get that way even sooner, I rarely drive around any more with my new position.

If I could order a manual I would in a heartbeat. My fleet lease provider pretty much laughed at the notion when I attempted that.

Do you know if that '15 has the "Powershift" auto? Those sound like problems many other Fiesta owners have complained about which I believe has recently incited a full on recall for them.

 

[LM7325]

Do you know if that '15 has the "Powershift" auto? Those sound like problems many other Fiesta owners have complained about which I believe has recently incited a full on recall for them.

They both have the powershift.

I have found the '15 is a little less aggravating in sport range, you can even shift manually once there.

On the topic of electric motors, It would seem a small high rpm capable motor paired with a proper CVT would be an interesting idea. A big high torque motor with reduction gear seems less than ideal.

 

[homeforsummer]

A big high torque motor with reduction gear seems less than ideal.

Why so? Electric motors spin to much higher speeds than engines so a reduction gear isn't really a compromise in either acceleration or top speed.

I've wondered about CVTs before but I imagine there's a good reason why nobody has paired up an electric motor with a CVT yet. Possibly because it's adding a layer of unnecessary complexity given the delivery of an electric motor.

You'd be in a weird situation where you'd actually want to keep the motor spinning somewhere in its mid-range, as power is developed at lower, rather than higher motor speeds. In contrast to a combustion engine where the engine builds to maximum power at higher revs. I don't know enough about CVTs to know whether you could do that without limiting the motor's RPM. And whether there's any point when with a motor doing twice the RPM you'd get the top speed you wanted anyway without the drivetrain losses of a CVT.

 

[LM7325]

Why so? Electric motors spin to much higher speeds than engines so a reduction gear isn't really a compromise in either acceleration or top speg twice the RPM you'd get the top speed you wanted anyway without the drivetrain losses of a CVT.

My thinking was in how motors tend to need a huge jolt of electrons to get up and spinning. Also, most industrial electric motors tend to be optimised for one speed.

It would seem a smaller motor, less torque, but same horsepower would use less power overall with a CVT due to much less spin-up energy needed. Then it could sit at an optimal rpm.

 

[homeforsummer]

My thinking was in how motors tend to need a huge jolt of electrons to get up and spinning. Also, most industrial electric motors tend to be optimised for one speed.

I think the software in electric vehicles is probably more sophisticated than that. Though again, I've not seen anyone try and pair an electric motor with a CVT (nor a torque converter auto, for that matter), so I'm not sure how well it'd actually work.

 

[LM7325]

I know I went a little off topic there. I was actually looking at a Tesla P85D dynomometer readout thinking there could be a better way...

Back to the Fiesta, the power shift really is ill concieved I admit. I have tried to be really smooth, it gets confused very often. Getting moving from a stop can be unnerving, it takes it's sweet time engaging. Once moving the 6 ratios are decently spaced, in drive it wants 6th by 40mph with light throttle.

Sport range keeps the RPMs where actual acceleration exists, but even there it is very sluggish off the line. Overall, give me my clutch pedal back, please...

 

[niky]

Powershifts are grenades waiting to go off. The only silver lining on the dark stormcloud that is the shuddery, juddery, slippy-slippy transmission in the Fiesta is that unlike earlier Powershifts, you can actually replace the clutch packs instead of swapping in a whole new transmission.

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I drove an Ecosport with just 5k kms (about 3,000 miles) on it the other month and it shuddered like hell when the transmission was up to running temperature. Bloody awful.

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CVTs are pointless for an electric motor. The most you would ever need, I think, is a mechanical planetary as on the Prius and some Lexii.

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Damn... @homeforsummer - that stint at GCR seems like it was so long ago!

That Beetle is beautiful. Had a go in a '71 Econo last month... the shifter was smooooooth, but gave absolutely no feedback as to whether you've actually found the gear you were looking for.

Still want to buy one, but it'd be impractical to have another motorized toy at this point in time.

 

[homeforsummer]

Damn... @homeforsummer - that stint at GCR seems like it was so long ago!

Left two years ago this month, but driving that Beetle was about three years ago now.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

The EV gearbox debate is something which has been played out in this year's Formula E season. Almost every team had their own idea as to what would work most efficiently, and as a result the grid has everything from single-speed to five speed gearboxes.

Renault e.Dams used a manual shifter for their two speed 'box - first gear is essentially to make the most of the motor's torque for a quick launch, and from there pretty much the entire race was covered in second. In the end it seemed to be the best compromise between weight (single speed cars like the DS Racing and NextEV used a second motor) and complexity (three, four and five speeds proved to be a little unnecessary).

 

[TheCracker]

The EV gearbox debate is something which has been played out in this year's Formula E season. Almost every team had their own idea as to what would work most efficiently, and as a result the grid has everything from single-speed to five speed gearboxes.

Renault e.Dams used a manual shifter for their two speed 'box - first gear is essentially to make the most of the motor's torque for a quick launch, and from there pretty much the entire race was covered in second. In the end it seemed to be the best compromise between weight (single speed cars like the DS Racing and NextEV used a second motor) and complexity (three, four and five speeds proved to be a little unnecessary).

I had no idea that Formula E was anything other than a single-spec race series. You learn something different every day!

 

[05XR8]

I did warranty for Ford Australia. The Fiesta and Focus autos were horrible. The Mondeo is bulletproof. Before I left at the end of 2014, the Fiesta and Focus were to use the Mondeo setup. Reading from the above posts, doesn't seem like that has happened. Shame.

 

[GTP_Ingram]

I had no idea that Formula E was anything other than a single-spec race series. You learn something different every day!

It was a spec series for the first season to encourage enough teams to enter on an even footing. From season two, the rules are gradually opening up year-on-year to further EV development: this year, teams were allowed to develop their own motor and gearboxes, but chassis and batteries remained the same for everyone so it was clear who was developing the most efficient electrical tech.

 

[Danoff]

Automated manual and sequential 'boxes were developed initially for motorsport - it's little wonder that they're the ideal solution for track driving.

Enthusiastic driving on the road can be greatly enhanced if you add in the process of using a good manual gearbox. You're unlikely to be driving at any more than 8/10ths on any given stretch of road for any prolonged period of time, so gaining those valuable 1/10ths of seconds from quicker changes is irrelevant. Especially when the software for these automated gearboxes on road cars is tuned to a wide spectrum of driving situations. In my experience of the VW Group's DSG, it's not hard to wrong foot the electronic brain into stammering for a moment whilst it tries to work out if the driver's going to want an up change or a down change next.

On track you just want gear changes to be as quick and decisive as possible. If you're approaching a corner that you need to change down for, you've got enough on your plate trying to brake as late as possible, keeping the car balanced - or unbalanced if you need some movement at the rear, hitting the right turn-in point, loading the weight up on the outside tyres, carrying as much speed as you can and hitting the apex without unbalancing the car into too much under or over-steer so you can make a clean exit. Add into that a period of time where the drive to the wheels is interrupted by the clutch being engaged, and you're just piling on more opportunity to make a mess of things. A fluffed up change can cost you precious time, but a fluffed down change can easily see you spinning off.

For enthusiastic driving where you don't care about the last 1/10ths of a second, you can avoid taking the turn at the limit and do the shift mid-turn. After removing your foot from the brake while coasting you can blip the throttle for the shift and take off when you've completed the turn. It's the novice way out of the heel-toe. Heel-toe is really only important when you need to avoid upsetting the balance of the car because you're at the limit and don't want to spin.

I agree that a DSG is better at the track than a manual gear box, but a manual is still better at the track than a manumatic with a torque converter. For enthusiastic driving though, the manumatic is fully capable of delivering gear changes when you need them. The point that I was addressing, where for some reason we care exactly when the clutch gets let out, is that you don't even really need that kind of precision at the track. For enthusiastic driving it's even less important.

There are other times when a torque converter gets in the way. It's a little (I stress little here) annoying during an ice autocross. The direct connection of throttle-to-wheels sans torque converter is helpful for maintaining the long drifts that you want to set up to get around an ice course. It's not as important as a myriad of other things though. For example I'd take a manumatic with an LSD over a manual with an open diff hands down... and I think most people would do the same after a few laps around an ice track.

On the whole, even the manumatic has the traditional manual fairly well beat.

 

[homeforsummer]

For enthusiastic driving where you don't care about the last 1/10ths of a second, you can avoid taking the turn at the limit and do the shift mid-turn.

Could you clarify what you mean by mid-turn? I've always considered it bad technique to change gear in the middle of a corner unless absolutely necessary, as it can upset the balance of the car.

After removing your foot from the brake while coasting you can blip the throttle for the shift and take off when you've completed the turn. It's the novice way out of the heel-toe. Heel-toe is really only important when you need to avoid upsetting the balance of the car because you're at the limit and don't want to spin.

That's why it's important, but it's also nice to do everything in one fluid motion - maintaining constant pressure on the brake and heel-toe down the 'box to the required gear.

I learned to heel-toe by way of regular rev-matching - coming off the gas a little earlier before a turn or junction, rev-match as the car slowed down to get used to how much throttle was required for a smooth change, then braked as necessary for the remainder. But once I'd figured it out (and once you get used to the brakes in each individual car - sometimes a pain with modern over-servoed brakes), it's much more pleasant doing it all together.

There are other times when a torque converter gets in the way. It's a little (I stress little here) annoying during an ice autocross. The direct connection of throttle-to-wheels sans torque converter is helpful for maintaining the long drifts that you want to set up to get around an ice course.

I quite enjoyed my last experience of ice/torque converter auto:

Admittedly not quite as much as my previous experience of ice/rear-drive/manual/LSD (370Z Nismo) and ice/lots of power/AWD with rear bias/DCT (GT-R), but then the Skoda required a fairly rudimentary technique that involved the Scandinavian Flick, an armful of lock and mashing the pedal to the bulkhead. I think my conclusion here though is that driving on ice is fun in basically anything...

On the whole, even the manumatic has the traditional manual fairly well beat.

What I said earlier taken into consideration, I don't think I've ever driven an automated manual I'd choose over a regular manual transmission as they all seem rather unsophisticated.

I've certainly driven ones I've not minded, but they never seem to quite meet the promise of what they should be: that is a gearbox with a direct connection between engine and wheels with fast, clutchless control.

They require technique to operate smoothly and quickly, which I like, but in the wider scheme of things it does make them rather pointless for anyone who'd habitually choose an auto as I suspect most just want an auto that does everything with minimal human input.

 

[Danoff]

Could you clarify what you mean by mid-turn? I've always considered it bad technique to change gear in the middle of a corner unless absolutely necessary, as it can upset the balance of the car.

It's poor technique for sure, and yes it can upset the balance of the car... but it can also upset the balance of the car when you're threshold braking. Like I said, it's a cop-out.

I choose to drive a manumatic every day over a manual (330i auto), and it's not because I choose auto out of habit or because I do everything with minimal human input. For daily driving it offers the best of all worlds (for me anyway). I can control a downshift when I want it, and I have no clutch to mess with during endless stoplights and traffic.

 

[05XR8]

I guess I'm one, when in traffic, that feels less stress as I don't have to have my foot on the brake. Today's clutches are so light, just lifting off creates movement without throttle input.

The endless lift off or riding the brake, accelerate, foot on the brake in traffic with an auto, seems more of a burden to me. While using engine braking with a manual in 1st gear, I can creep to a halt or put in neutral to creep or coast to a halt. Downhill grades are even better. Uphill, I just create space from the car ahead.

However, when traffic clears, speeding away in an auto feels good.

 

[homeforsummer]

I choose to drive a manumatic every day over a manual (330i auto), and it's not because I choose auto out of habit or because I do everything with minimal human input. For daily driving it offers the best of all worlds (for me anyway). I can control a downshift when I want it, and I have no clutch to mess with during endless stoplights and traffic.

Is it the SMG? Admittedly I've not tried one of those so they may be fine, though BMW has obviously moved back to ZF auto boxes so it must have seen automated manuals as a bit of a dead-end.

The endless lift off or riding the brake, accelerate, foot on the brake in traffic with an auto, seems more of a burden to me. While using engine braking with a manual in 1st gear, I can creep to a halt or put in neutral to creep or coast to a halt. Downhill grades are even better. Uphill, I just create space from the car ahead.

Can't agree on that. Using the clutch is a much more finely-controlled action than depressing the brake or the gas pedal to move along - I can drive an auto in traffic all day, but finely clutching and declutching over the biting point - ensuring pulling away is always smooth - soon gets tiring in traffic, as any fine motor skill would. Even with a light clutch pedal.

And obviously in really slow traffic in an auto, literally all you need to do is apply and release pressure on the brake. I can accept and agree with more or less any defence of the manual transmission for anything else, but making it out to be better in traffic than an automatic is a non-starter, unless you never really experience heavy traffic.

 

[Danoff]

Is it the SMG? Admittedly I've not tried one of those so they may be fine, though BMW has obviously moved back to ZF auto boxes so it must have seen automated manuals as a bit of a dead-end.

Nope, not an SMG. Just a regular slush box. It downshifts at least as fast as I could do in a manual during traffic, so when I want to overtake I just grab the lever, punch it down one, change lanes and dump the lever back into drive. Works pretty well. I also downshifted under braking routinely for a particular turn back when I was living in CA because I needed to be on the gas at the start of that turn (steep uphill to a short merge at 80mph).

 

[05XR8]

Is it the SMG? Admittedly I've not tried one of those so they may be fine, though BMW has obviously moved back to ZF auto boxes so it must have seen automated manuals as a bit of a dead-end.

Can't agree on that. Using the clutch is a much more finely-controlled action than depressing the brake or the gas pedal to move along - I can drive an auto in traffic all day, but finely clutching and declutching over the biting point - ensuring pulling away is always smooth - soon gets tiring in traffic, as any fine motor skill would. Even with a light clutch pedal.

And obviously in really slow traffic in an auto, literally all you need to do is apply and release pressure on the brake. I can accept and agree with more or less any defence of the manual transmission for anything else, but making it out to be better in traffic than an automatic is a non-starter, unless you never really experience heavy traffic.

I don't commute to Sydney from where I am. When I lived in Melbourne, it wasn't tiring in my Megane. However, driving in and around the five boroughs of NYC for most of my years, I don't feel it was a chore with the manuals I owned. I guess I loved the cars I drove, not to think much about it being a burden as some may feel.

 

[TheCracker]

Whilst I agree that I've never found driving a manual in heavy traffic, day in day out, in any way a chore. I can't agree that it's in any way easier either.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't like automatic creep either, but it's only a chore in vehicles with heavy brake effort.

The only time in my life I've been worn out by clutching in traffic, it was from almost two hours of "stop-and-go" traffic that never actually stopped, but crept along constantly at a speed slower than idling in 1st, in the aftermath of an accident on a freeway.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Ford Sticks Instruction Tag On Manual Fiesta Telling Drivers How To Shift

 

[Northstar]

Well you can't very well save the manuals unless you teach people to drive them now can you?

 

[Tornado]

Plus the Fiesta might have a crappy manual in it, so that might be to save "experts" from themselves.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Plus the Fiesta might have a crappy manual in it, so that might be to save "experts" from themselves.

Having driven (albeit briefly) a Mk7 Fiesta, I can say that the gearbox is actually very good.