End of the road for manual shifters?

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LA's traffic isn't really all that bad. It's a pain at times, but you just have to know your way around it. I worked as a courier for a while, and drove a manual, all over LA and the West Side, at all hours of the day, and never minded it.

Yea, traffic during the day is ok. And I can see how it could be bearable if you did it for a living. But when you're stuck in it on your own time during peak hours it sucks. I learned all the back roads and shortcuts, but so did everyone else. It's odd to see a 10 mile long bumper-to-bumper traffic jam down a back road through a suburban neighborhood - but that's exactly what happens.

That being said, some people don't seem to mind traffic in a stick shift. I don't know why, it's becauseI think it's a pain. Not particularly difficult or anything, just irritating.
 
LA's traffic isn't really all that bad. It's a pain at times, but you just have to know your way around it. I worked as a courier for a while, and drove a manual, all over LA and the West Side, at all hours of the day, and never minded it.

We don't get big jams in Grand Rapids too often, but I've been stuck in my fair share down in Chicago with my Jetta, and it isn't fun having a stick. If there is ever a sticking point with having a manual transmission, it is bumper-to-bumper traffic, but most people aren't going to experience that everyday.
 
Being in bumper to bumper traffic isn't fun in a stick or an auto, it's just a question of weather or not you mind driving in heavy traffic with a manual. Personally it doesn't bother me one bit. but even if it did, the traffic is rarely bumper to bumber, stop start except during the morning and evening rushours on the main routes that I'd gladly still choose a manual anyway.
 
That's a very odd statement. Why not just go by a noble M400 and be done with it then? Granted it is a stick and about 100K$, but it also does 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. That beats out the ZO6 Vette.


He can't possibly have meant that. It would be silly to compare two different cars with different transmissions. A proper comparison would be the VW R32 6MT vs R32 DSG, or E46 M3 6MT vs SMG.
 
That's a very odd statement. Why not just go by a noble M400 and be done with it then? Granted it is a stick and about 100K$, but it also does 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. That beats out the ZO6 Vette.

Because I haven't got $100k? By that logic - why not go out and buy a Veyron?
 
I couldn't ever buy an automatic. I need the full control and the experience of a proper manual. As I have said in another thread nailing a heel and toe downshift into a corner is one of the joys of motoring.

Coming back to the poseur thing. With approx 90% of Ferraris now sold with the F1 shift does that mean all those 90% of buyers are proper hardcore enthusiasts or is it the other way. I know which way my money is on this one.

Another thing which made me laugh...

A friend (owns 993 and e46 m3) sent me a text yesterday after a test drive in a 335i. "Flappy paddle s***! ******* fast though."
 
He can't possibly have meant that. It would be silly to compare two different cars with different transmissions. A proper comparison would be the VW R32 6MT vs R32 DSG, or E46 M3 6MT vs SMG.

You'll get not argument from me on that. In fact, you're proving my point quite well.

Because I haven't got $100k? By that logic - why not go out and buy a Veyron?

So how much do you have? Do you want something that's really fast in a straight line or when you turn the wheel you can STILL go pretty fast? I'm asking in all seriousness because your statement about speed is a very narrow look at a cars performance. Finding a fast car isn't hard. Finding a fast car that can handle well, now THERE'S a good trick. :)
 
You'll get not argument from me on that. In fact, you're proving my point quite well.

Actually, it disproves your point (if I understood it correctly). In both those cases, the "automatic" is slightly faster than the manual version. Slightly, but definitely faster.
 
Actually, it disproves your point (if I understood it correctly). In both those cases, the "automatic" is slightly faster than the manual version. Slightly, but definitely faster.

What I was saying was that your statement was correct and it makes no sense in the world to pick a automatic over a stick just because it's 1 tenth of a second faster in a drivetrain wrenching zero to 60 dash.

Basically, M5powers logic is inherently flawed unless all he will ever do is drag race a car. If he ever plans on cornering, then 0-60 is NOT the only thing that matters in evaluating a cars performance.
 
I used to be die-hard only manual transmissions is what I want to own type of person. Now, I'm more accepting of paddle shifters and 6+ gear autos.

Cars like the Golf R and Scirocco, Juke, Pulsar(Sentra), 300 SRT8, Cherokee SRT, Skoda Fabia and Yeti . I've recently had a drive of these cars. The SRT cars, I had too much fun and didn't even care there is no manual variant. Yet, with the VWs, I thought of the fun I had with my A2 Jettas. Rowing gears from parkways in The Bronx to traffic in Manhattan. The DSG isn't bad for where I am now. I even asked my brother about his Macan Turbo S. He's a die-hard fan of manuals. In his opinion, he told me he doesn't miss a manual and would only move forward. His Harley is as "manual" as he will get for now.

I'm getting an Austin Mini soon and having a manual is fine for a vintage car like that. These new cars are effortless to steer and I don't mind that any longer. Thing is, something like a Suzuki Swift Sport I drove, it needs that manual. The auto just turns it from a go-kart into a shopping cart. Saps the fun out of it.

With the Falcon soon out of production. The latest high output Falcon FG Xs, have autos. I enjoyed my BA Mk II 6speed manual. Made me feel like I was driving a V8SC of that era. Now, I'm more accepting of the semi-autos as many top tier race cars use them. Plus, an XR6 I drove with the ZF auto was pretty damn good.

I have a Passat 2.0TDi for a weekend drive to Newcastle. My initial drive home with it wasn't bad. I'll see if it can impress me for the next 3 days.

If manuals do somehow cease to exist from vehicle production. I'll always have my Mini until then.
 
BIG gravedig! :lol:

Personally, I still love driving manual gearshifts. My current daily is a manual... because I see no point in getting a tiny-engined car and saddling it with the excessive drivetrain losses of a four-speed automatic.

Small cars, in general, still suffer a fuel penalty and a performance penalty from ATs. The only small car automatic I've driven in the past several years that ticks all the right boxes is the one on the Mazda2. Snappy shifts, satisfying manual control, and a very positive engagement thanks to good lock-up clutches and shifting algorithms.

That said, from a commuting point of view, most of these new CVTs do the job very well. And for bigger, more powerful vehicles and modern diesels, auto is now the way to go.
 
I switched from an manuel to auto because of my legs. Have had multiple ankle, knee and hip injuries, started work during the thickest part of morning rush and evening rush. I've literally been left in tears by the time I get home.
 
My first two cars were auto trans, but everything after that has been manual for the exception of my current daily driver which is a 6-speed auto. I caved and got something with an automatic simply for work commute purposes, but I'm not giving up on the manuals just yet! Got project car plans, just need to win the lottery first. :P
 
Arrived in Newcastle unscathed(smooth and comfortable ride). From a stop, that DSG doesn't know what it wants to do around town. Once the stop/start engages, I have to wait... Car moves... Plant foot... Give it some more... boost comes up and whammo! Every time. The Scirocco and Golf were okay. Maybe it's the diesel(or the 2nd gear starts).

When I had the Megane, that manual was easy in heavy traffic. Glad Renault only makes them in manual. The little Mirage i have as a project, is even easier.
 
I still largely agree with myself from 10 years ago. Since then I sold the manual I was driving at the time and bought an auto 330i - which I would not do any differently. I also bought a manual NSX instead of the auto - which I also would not do any differently.

I still think that the stick-shift layout is a terrible human interface and that people just like it because they like the control (which is achievable via other better interfaces) and because they think it's cool. Any time you need 3 feet and 3 hands to work a human interface it's a bad interface. There are songs on the piano where you have to hit 12 notes at a time - usually it's the thumb on each hand that needs to nail two adjacent notes. That's pushing the interface beyond what it does. Heel-toe is that way with the stick. I do it, frequently, but i don't think it's a good thing - it's a trick. Ok so you can juggle 4 balls at once - good for you - but you shouldn't have to.

The manual transmission was an ok solution to a problem that we no longer have. The people that cling to it do so out of a sense of nostalgia, and often will not admit that. There are people that insist that god intended that music have the pops and scratches of a record player.
 
I still think that the stick-shift layout is a terrible human interface and that people just like it because they like the control (which is achievable via other better interfaces) and because they think it's cool.
I still broadly agree that a manual transmission is now a poor interface - automatic gearboxes are a great example of genuine technology* - but I disagree that the sole reasons people hang on to it as an interface are control and impressing one's peers. I couldn't care less whether driving a manual is considered cool - I enjoy all manner of vehicles and pursuits that are woefully uncool, so driving stick is hardly going to neutralise my social ills.

I simply find it, on balance, more fun than driving an automatic. It varies from car to car of course: putting a stick shift in a fundamentally boring car doesn't make it fun, it just makes it a boring car that you have to exert more concentration in.

But I've driven enough cars now, fast and slow, excellent and poor, weird and straight-laced, to know that in cars designed explicitly for fun they're even more entertaining when you're able to invest extra skill in the process of something so fundamental to the car's progress. Pulling a little flap and getting a parp from the exhaust as the revs auto-match in a good DCT is all well and good, but I enjoy the physical action of judging throttle, clutch, shifter and brakes just-so, and enjoy it even more on the (increasing) occasions I get it just right.

I may never have the consistency to do so as a DCT might, but it's human nature to give it a go anyway, and there's a very primal satisfaction in executing a mechanical task, no matter how ultimately fruitless, to the best of your abilities. An electronic coffee maker might mix beans and water far better than grinding your own beans and compressing the granules in a cafetiere, and there's little good reason to do the latter when the former is so efficient. But the latter is tactile, and I've not yet used a paddleshift setup that's as tactile as a good manual.

On the flip side, I disagree with those who consider any car improved simply by virtue of it using a manual gearbox. Some - many, even - manuals are simply crap, and others are entirely inappropriate for the cars they might be attached to. A manual in a Rolls-Royce Phantom would be a besmirching of all that is wonderful about utterly effortless travel. Equally, an automatic Elise would be an empty experience when every other aspect of the car requires and rewards involvement.



* So, technology. An oft-misused term but one the automatic gearbox suits perfectly. Technology is knowledge applied to accomplish an objective, generally to make life easier - computers compute for us, automatic gearboxes streamline the complex process of shifting gears. In contrast, a hoverboard is not technology, it's frippery that's less efficient and less reliable than simply walking or riding a bicycle. And it makes you look like a tit.
 
Manual gearboxes in supercars will be no more. It's almost impossible to enjoy the car reasonably now. Sure you could bring up "BUT THE DODGE VIPER HAS A MANUAL AND THATS FAST UGHHHHHHHH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH CORVETTE", but there is not a single owner that I've talked to that has said they like it. They're manuals because it's cheaper to produce, rather than putting money into R&D like Porsche or McLaren for a DCT or KDD like Koenigsegg. People buying manuals make up for just barely 10% of the current market share now and it'll eventually go away anyways because electric is the way of the future.
 
I am sad manuals are slowly going the way of the Dodo. After spending 3 years wrestling with non synchronized dual range 10 speeds with bear trap clutches you would think I would dread the thought of rowing anymore. The thing is I absolutely enjoyed it, every rev match, every double clutch.

It is easy to mess up when you have no syncros guiding you, you have to get the RPM right in the sweet spot for each shift, if you miss, get ready for some horrible grinding. That was what really made it interesting for me. I still catch myself double clutching some shifts every time I drive a manual.

Automatics are taking over the big trucks also, I am glad I got my experience in before it was too late.
 
Since this thread was last active, I currently spend way more of my driving time with an automatic, and the Forester is very fun to drive overall compared to the automatics I spent the most time with before. That second part matters, because my opinion hasn't changed (though my attitude certainly has in the past nine years!) and it would be depressing to do all this driving in an automatic which lacks that redeeming quality.

I have adopted a new habit with it, using the console shifter liberally, which @Danoff would appreciate. The Forester needs revs to make power and "Earl" is kinda slow-witted. Earl is my nickname for the transmission, because I've always personified uncooperative behavior from a car. :)

I still think that the stick-shift layout is a terrible human interface and that people just like it because they like the control (which is achievable via other better interfaces)...
I have no objections to adapting to something else to achieve manual clutch engagement or mechanical (and preferably non-sequential) gear selection. Learning to ride a motorcycle was easy. You know I won't budge on those two elements of control, though. They are not inconsequential to me.

...I disagree with those who consider any car improved simply by virtue of it using a manual gearbox...A manual in a Rolls-Royce Phantom would be a besmirching of all that is wonderful about utterly effortless travel.
I think your celebration of what the Rolls-Royce represents highlights why we disagree. I don't think driving should be "utterly effortless travel". I'm proud of the privilege and responsibility, and I expect it to feel like operating a machine, taking control and getting all of my limbs involved.
 
I've been driving manual my entire driving career, yesterday I've purchased my first DSG car (Audi S4)
Always loved driving with stick but it's clear the paddles are going to be way faster the my hand movement will ever be.
 
I think your celebration of what the Rolls-Royce represents highlights why we disagree. I don't think driving should be "utterly effortless travel". I'm proud of the privilege and responsibility, and I expect it to feel like operating a machine, taking control and getting all of my limbs involved.
Automobiles are a rich tapestry. I get as much enjoyment, in its own unique way, from driving a Phantom as I do my MX-5, polar opposites they may be. The world would be a worse place were Rolls-Royce and what it represents not to exist, just as it would be a worse place if fun, lightweight sports cars that major on interaction didn't exist.

In the same way I get as much enjoyment from going on road trips as I do from hammering around a track, as indeed I do from applying every skill I have to squeeze maximum MPG from a car.

The ultimate boredom for me is not "car without stick", it's "driving without variety".

For the record, I still ask every automotive engineer I interview whether they will continue a commitment to manual transmissions, because ultimately I find them fun and I have little interest in the pursuit of pure speed at the expense of something I enjoy. So take from that what you will.
 
When even steering has gone electric, it's nice to still have some mechanical connection to the processes of the car. I love manual gearboxes. Even the rubbish ones. If it is rubbish, then you just accept its limitations and try to get the best out of it.
 
VXR
Even the rubbish ones. If it is rubbish, then you just accept its limitations and try to get the best out of it.
I'm very much the opposite, and bad manual gearboxes are one of the reasons I'm entirely open to the idea of automatics in many cars.

A poor gearbox is a component you cannot get away with not interacting with. It's up there with bad steering for me, though even bad steering is only really a problem if you're deliberately driving for enjoyment, whereas a bad gearbox is bad whether you're driving for enjoyment or just trying to drive to the shops.

The example I like to use is the Mercedes B-class. Merc have never been particularly good at manual gearboxes but the B-class's 'box is the worst I've ever used. There's no feeling of mechanical connection in the lever whatsoever - it might as well be changing the stereo for all the tactility it offers - and it's compounded by poor throttle response and a mushy biting point to the clutch, and heel/toe is completely out of the question because of the pedal positioning and the grabby brakes.

The complete inconsistency of every component means it's impossible to derive pleasure from the process - neither lever nor pedals give you satisfactory outputs to any of your inputs. Trying to get the best from it isn't possible because there's no "best" to seek.

What frustrates me about bad manuals too is that it's so obviously possible to create a good one. Mazda can. Honda can. The one in my old Fiat Panda 100HP was great, and I quite enjoy the one in my long-term Kia. And people have been creating great-feeling gearshifts for decades - one of the best I've used was in a Mk1 Ford Escort. Spacing pedals in a way that you can heel/toe must be easy enough too - once again, I've not driven a modern Mazda in which it's not possible, be that the MX-5 or a CX-3. So I cannot abide by companies that can't get it right.
 
Old news, different views
http://www.ford-trucks.com/articles/manual-transmission-dead-never-coming-back-ever/

This also applies to the slew of electric cars available and in development. Gearing new drivers to not even thinking about a manual. It's now more important to have mobile phone and app connectivity in a car than what type of engine it has.

I've come across several people that have not driven an auto in years. When they have been faced with using an automatic transmission car, they almost don't know how to drive them. It wasn't about the type of car. Some felt they didn't have control of the car. It gave them a sense that they were not as alert because there was nothing for them to do.
 
It gave them a sense that they were not as alert because there was nothing for them to do.
I've never really understood this concept. If someone is worried about losing concentration on driving the moment the act of shifting is delegated to electronics, they shouldn't be driving an auto or a manual.
 
Instead of zoning out in an automatic, I'm actually more distracted by it when it makes an undesired gear change or I need to play charades with the computer to request a downshift. I drove my in-laws' Ford Freestar on a trip to Minneapolis last month, and by the end of our return trip I was sick of digging deep in the throttle pedal and fiddling around to "find" a downshift without getting a full-sail-ahead double downshift. And the slip of the torque converter made it distracting to maintain a speed.

Driving a manual is so reflexive that it doesn't draw my attention away from anything else.
 
VXR
Even the rubbish ones. If it is rubbish, then you just accept its limitations and try to get the best out of it.
I used to think the same thing when the only manuals I had driven were sport compacts and Hondas. Rubbery shifters aren't too bad so long as you're careful where you put the stick, but bad clutches are something that I cannot stand and I have a hard time understanding how the supposed inherent enjoyment comes into play.


This realization came with a car I had been really looking forward to driving, as well.
 
I'd actually be happy to delete the clutch from the equation completely, I want to be able to select the gear myself but if it can be done by purely moving the stick I'm all in for the idea. There are H patterns that can do it, just a bit harsh for road use though, but that's what I'd call my preferred type of gearbox. Naturally a clutch would still be necessary for starts and stops but those are few and far between when compared to shifts.
 
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