Europe - The Official Thread

[Dennisch]

So, ensuring that diplomacy can function is not a good reason?

I'm pretty confident that they can still function properly when they have to adhere to the same rules and laws as us common folks.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I'm pretty confident that they can still function properly when they have to adhere to the same rules and laws as us common folks.

The immunity is there to prevent intimidation by a host country's bailiffs or police, overall it's a concept that's worked pretty well for five thousand years. They do have to adhere to the same rules and laws, what make you think they don't?

Diplomats get prosecuted for crimes the same as everybody else, it's just that that the due process is a little more complicated. At the very least the diplomat becomes persona non grata and can be expelled.

 

[Dennisch]

They do have to adhere to the same rules and laws, what make you think they don'

Because we have had the same incidents with diplomats here, and even though they don't leave the country, things like traffic penalties aren't paid for.

It should be like everyone else. You do something that you aren't allowed, you pay the fine or go to jail, no matter what your status is.

 

[Johnnypenso]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-40332532

A car deliberately hit a police van before bursting into flames on the Avenue des Champs-Élysées in central Paris, police officials say.
The driver died in the incident. Police found a Kalashnikov rifle, handguns and gas bottles in the car.
"Security forces have been targeted in France once again," Interior Minister Gérard Collomb said, calling it an "attempted attack".

 

[PeterJB]

Mobile car bombs, that's a new one.

 

[Rage Racer]

Mobile car bombs, that's a new one.

Not new at all. The "Shakhidmobiles" are used widely by the Daesh in Syria and Iraq.
There were also terrorist attacks with explosive-rigged cars in Russia (North Caucasus, particularly Chechnya), and, maybe, Israel (not sure).

 

[TenEightyOne]

Mobile car bombs, that's a new one.

Sarcasm, no?

 

[PeterJB]

Yes. I tend to think of typical car bombs as being stationary.

 

[Tornado]

Mobile car bombs, that's a new one.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes. I tend to think of typical car bombs as being stationary.

That would generally be the Irish so. Suicide bombers have been using vehicles for nearly 100 years.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Brussels Station incident. One small explosion reported and one person "neutralised."

 

[Dotini]

An odd, little explosion, like this?



TWITTER/REMYBONNAFFE
6
Brussels Central station has been evacuated amid reports of an explosion – this unverified picture posted on Twitter purports to show the suspected explosion

 

[Fryto]

An odd, little explosion, like this?



TWITTER/REMYBONNAFFE
6
Brussels Central station has been evacuated amid reports of an explosion – this unverified picture posted on Twitter purports to show the suspected explosion

Scary, this is on my daily route to/from work. That picture seems real to me, as it is indeed Brussels-Central. Supposedly it was taken seconds after the first small explosion. Officials say the bomb was poorly made, didn't fully detonate and caused just a small explosion and flame burst. The suspect then tried to flee the scene but was shot by military personnel on patrol in the station.

 

[Dennisch]

Things are going great in Hamburg today at the G20 summit. It looks like half the city's cars are burning.

 

[UKMikey]

Was there a thread about the would-be "Jackal" trying to assassinate Emmanuel Macron this week or is there simply nothing to discuss regarding the case?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/worl...macron-in-front-of-donald-trump-a3578321.html

 

[Carbonox]

Things are going great in Hamburg today at the G20 summit. It looks like half the city's cars are burning.

That's one way to cut down emissions.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Was there a thread about the would-be "Jackal" trying to assassinate Emmanuel Macron this week or is there simply nothing to discuss regarding the case?

I'm not sure what exactly was "Day of the Jackal" style about it. He wasn't engaged in a murderous spree across the country whilst hiding his identity and he told a load of people that he didn't know that he was trying to buy a weapon. Day of the Jackass, more like.

 

[Dotini]

According to overnight BBC radio, "aging leftists with ponytails and thinning hair" were out in the streets protesting Macron's latest labor laws.

Here's a report from the NYT.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/12/world/europe/france-labor-law-protests.html?mcubz=0

 

[TenEightyOne]

Iceland's coalition government is collapsing over the PM's apparent support for heterosexual paedophile Hjalti Hauksson.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Iceland's coalition government is collapsing over the PM's apparent support for heterosexual paedophile Hjalti Hauksson.

Why did you feel the need to mention his sexual preference? Is that relevant to pedophelia?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Why did you feel the need to mention his sexual preference? Is that relevant to pedophelia?

Utterly irrelevant. I just found this interesting.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Utterly irrelevant. I just found this interesting.

Don't get the connection, sorry.

 

[Liquid]

Meanwhile in Spain, the Spanish government is well into its crackdown in Catalonia as the Catalans plan to hold their own referendum on independence.

More than a dozen Catalan government officials, including the junior finance minister, have been arrested. The Spanish Civil Guard has also 'intercepted' 45,000 envelopes containing information the Catalan government was planning to distribute to make its citizens aware of the referendum.

Spain considers any Catalan independence referendum illegal because, according to the Spanish constitution, "Spain is indivisible". Spain is however a signatory to numerous international treaties recognising the right to self-determination.

 

[Hun200kmh]

This is getting serious. A de facto replacement of the catalonian police for the national spanish police force has been made, and new reinforcements are arriving. SkyNews has this

According to Sky sources, three large government vessels with members of the Policia Nacional, the primary anti-riot body in Spain, have docked in Barcelona.

Polls suggest the majority of catalans don't want Independence. But polls also suggest that "no" voters won't ... vote, while "yes" voters will turn up in force. The referendum "law" conveniently doesn't require a minimum of attendance for the referendum to be binding or valid. The atmosphere on the ground is toxic, with the pro-independece calling the anti-indepedence "traitors" and any kind of reasoned arguing is by now something of the past.

I hope some sense prevails. But this can turn nasty.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I hope some sense prevails. But this can turn nasty.

Catalonia's GDP is higher than Qatar's, if my memory serves me correctly. What a prize for the "Spanish" government - I'm pretty sure that's the main reason for all the enforced inclusivity.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Catalonia's GDP is about 1/5 from the entirety of Spain. They could probably survive on their own, although their economy would be hit hard. Of course Spanish economy would also be hit hard. But I don't think money is the core issue to be honest.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Catalonia's GDP is about 1/5 from the entirety of Spain. They could probably survive on their own, although their economy would be hit hard.

It depends, with a E28k per capita GDP figure (very high compared to other Spanish regions and other countries in general) the EU would very likely accept them into the Euro unless they choose peseta. There's also the possibility that other Catalan-esque regions might try to join the new independent state.

What the central government are doing is unthinkable. The parallel would be Scotland's independence referendum (they're a separate country, one of the four grouped as "United Kingdom") being declared illegal with the Scottish police force and procurators being replaced with Metropolitan officers.

 

[zzz_pt]

Spain has had problems for decades with the Basque Country (with a language that's older than Spanish itself and right in between Spain and France) and never let them have a referendum for the independence. Why would they let Catalonia be independent, given they're the richer region of Spain. Spain would be dismanteled as soon as 1 region would get independence. I have friends from Galicia, Andalusia, Catalonia, Madrid, Canary Islands and Valencia and every single one of them, except Luís from Madrid, would like, in one or way or another, to have full independence from Madrid and the other regions.

In every region, from what they tell me, the sense of belonging to their particular region is way stronger than the sense or proud of being Spanish. That only makes these independence calls a natural consequence, given time. Pro-region / anti-Madrid parties and social movements are things waiting to happen, given the right context - mainly financial crisis and political clashes.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Spain has had problems for decades with the Basque Country (with a language that's older than Spanish itself and right in between Spain and France) and never let them have a referendum for the independence. Why would they let Catalonia be independent, given they're the richer region of Spain.

It's clear why central government wouldn't, it's not so clear why they shouldn't. People who identify with a nationality have a collective, established, legal right to self-determination. The example I gave early was the United Kingdom - each country has its own language, its own parliament (except England) and its own police force/judiciary (except Wales). The people of Scotland were able to gain an independence referendum which ended in vote to stay part of the Kingdom.

Why shouldn't Catalonia have the same ability to vote?

 

[zzz_pt]

It's clear why central government wouldn't, it's not so clear why they shouldn't. People who identify with a nationality have a collective, established, legal right to self-determination. The example I gave early was the United Kingdom - each country has its own language, its own parliament (except England) and its own police force/judiciary (except Wales). The people of Scotland were able to gain an independence referendum which ended in vote to stay part of the Kingdom.

Why shouldn't Catalonia have the same ability to vote?

Never said they shouldn't. On the contrary, in principle, I'm in favor of self-determination. But I don't know why would Madrid allow them to have the referendum and independence given the fact they didn't do it for the Basque Country. That was my point. I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Me thinking they should have the referendum means zero because I'm not voting.

There's this tendency I guess, the richer parts of a country to ask to be independent. There are people who'd like the north region of Italy to be independent, for instance. Others wanted the state of California to be independent. Even in Portugal (mostly in the North, where I live and in Madeira Islands), there are people who would love to be independent from the state capital, much like in Catalonia.

I'm not sure there's an absolute right answer for this question though. Where do we stop with the self-determination idea? Is there a limit? If Catalonia gets the independence, Madrid has to grant it to every other region if they want it (I'm not aware of anything that Catalonia has going for it that other regions don't, like a language / idiom). And Madrid would be left in the middle of nowhere, with no coast, surrounded by poorer states and, basically, strangled. I think that's the "fear" behind the government's strong stance against it.

I think it's too complex of a subject for me to understand and make judgement that I'm confident with tbh. As I've said, in principle I'm in favor of it. But I'm not so sure it would be the best decision for the spanish people as a whole.