Europe - The Official Thread

[Famine]

It's like every European country arose from the merger of sub-national fiefdoms to which we all still identify with more strongly than our national capitals which often seek to serve their own interests more than the interests of those of us who live hundreds of miles away.

Or something.

 

[Liquid]

It's like every European country arose from the merger of sub-national fiefdoms to which we all still identify with more strongly than our national capitals which often seek to serve their own interests more than the interests of those of us who live hundreds of miles away.

Or something.

Funnily enough, I was going to post that these independence movements are somehow oddly similar to the Holy Roman Empire; a lot of these would-be breakaway countries are staunchly pro-EU and back in the day, by which I mean the 9th-19th century, a collection of (mainly German and Austrian) city states and regional kingdoms and dukedoms were independent but united by a supranational political body.

It's those city states and former dukedoms and kingdoms which form a lot of today's states, counties, departments in various European countries.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's like every European country arose from the merger of sub-national fiefdoms to which we all still identify with more strongly than our national capitals which often seek to serve their own interests more than the interests of those of us who live hundreds of miles away.

Catalonia's history as an independent is somewhat more recent than that (some argue that their historic independence should have been reinstated when Spain was formed after 1975), but I think I see your point. What's interesting is that in many national independence movements we see between 20%-40% of people actually stating an interest in independence. In Catalonia that sentiment is measured every year and it currently stands at around 60%. It's a very different place from other parts of Spain in terms of language, culture and (of course) history.

In practical terms it contributes about €17bn more in tax to the monarchist government than it gets back in government spending. Of the many pro-independence states Catalonia has, it seems, a far greater ability to stand alone as either a sovereign or federal state than the others.

A good friend has lived there since he was 9, he's now a Spanish national and strongly pro-independence. Mind you, he's Cornish by birth so I suppose it's in his blood

a lot of these would-be breakaway countries are staunchly pro-EU

It seems that Catalonia shares that sentiment - and they have the money to make a deal in the EU/EZ work. Would the remainder of Spain be in such a comfortable position if Catalonia became independent? I think they wouldn't.

 

[Liquid]

It seems that Catalonia shares that sentiment - and they have the money to make a deal in the EU/EZ work. Would the remainder of Spain be in such a comfortable position if Catalonia became independent? I think they wouldn't.

The cynic in me sees that as pretty much the main factor in most independence movements; losing money.

 

[Rage Racer]

Putin, STOP!

"Russia is suspected of meddling in Catalonia vote - Yahoo"

 

[TenEightyOne]

Putin, STOP!

"Russia is suspected of meddling in Catalonia vote - Yahoo"

All because "Assange is widely suspected of fronting for Russia"... really? First I've ever heard of that particular theory. Yahoo News looks a bit of a turd.

 

[Dennisch]

Putin, STOP!

"Russia is suspected of meddling in Catalonia vote - Yahoo"

I'm expecting that Russia will be involved in getting Friesland (Frisia) independent too.

 

[Liquid]

Merkel and her CDU/CSU appear to have won a plurality in Germany's federal election. The SPD say they won't enter in a grand coalition which means that the most viable option is a coalition between CDU/CSU (conservative), the FDP (classical liberalism) and the Greens. Any other combination excluding the SPD would not have a majority in the Bundestag.

AFD have won seats for the first time, with a share of the vote of up to 40% in east German districts, meaning that it's the first time since 1945 a "far-right" party has held seats.

"Far-right" is the appellation ascribed to them by the BBC but they don't offer the same appellation to UKIP, their Anglo-Saxon equivalents. The "true" neo-Nazi party in Germany, if such a thing is to be gazzetted, is the NPD (no seats) but the AFD is a few notches short of them. Still a worry for some that they have taken the votes of disillusioned CDU/CSU and SPD voters, as well as anybody who generally hates Merkel and sees her as an immigration enabler.

 

[Touring Mars]

Ireland is to have a referendum on abortion in 9 months time - unless they decide to give up on the idea...

 

[Liquid]

Ireland should have long repealled the eighth amendment. It didn't explicitly ban abortion but it gave equal recognition of life to both the foetus and the mother. There have been numerous subsequent cases where women die because doctors would not save the life of mothers due to not wanting to terminate the foetus; I find that contradictory to the foetus and mother both having right to life and also it goes against the Hippocratic oath.

It was a classic Charlie Haughey plan; draft this nonsense amendment and stall it so long that it's passed under his successor (Garrat FitzGerald) and he takes the flak instead.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Catalan leader claims victory in the referendum after a long weekend of clashes between Catalonian police and civilians with the Spanish state's police.

 

[Famine]

Catalan leader claims victory in the referendum after a long weekend of clashes between Catalonian police and civilians with the Spanish state's police.

What referendum?

 

[mustafur]

The way Spain has acted towards this is making things worse.

 

[jackargent]

Catalan leader claims victory in the referendum after a long weekend of clashes between Catalonian police and civilians with the Spanish state's police.

They weren't clashes. That implies equal blame. They were assaults by riot police on peaceful unarmed civilians.

 

[Dotini]

The way Spain has acted towards this is making things worse.

Do you think it may come to civil war?

 

[mustafur]

Do you think it may come to civil war?

Probably not, i haven't seen any indication of Catalan rebel forces forming but it could go that way.

Shooting people who are unarmed with rubber bullets because they are lining up to vote is not what democratic countries should be doing and Spain could risk the Catalans getting support from Europe..

 

[Dotini]

Probably not, i haven't seen any indication of Catalan rebel forces forming but it could go that way.

Shooting people who are unarmed with rubber bullets because they are lining up to vote is not what democratic countries should be doing and Spain could risk the Catalans getting support from Europe..

I would think that the central government, even in a "democracy", has a monopoly of authority within the borders of the nation/state. It would be as illegitimate for Catalan to secede from Spain as it was for the Confederacy to secede from the Union of the United States. No?

 

[mustafur]

I would think that the central government, even in a "democracy", has a monopoly of authority within the borders of the nation/state. It would be as illegitimate for Catalan to secede from Spain as it was for the Confederacy to secede from the Union of the United States. No?

Not the same thing, the Catalans haven't showed any Force and historicly have been a country before they where part of Spain, even though they where merged in conquest the desire doesn't look like it's left, and with the aggressive actions of the Franco Dictatorship this has made things significantly worse.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What referendum?

I sense a deeper meaning to your question than its simple face value

The referendum held across Catalonia held today. You might (and I guess will) argue that referendum in this sense may not subjectively satisfy the first part of the definition (legislative process) but I'd counter that it satisfies the second part of the definition (popular initiative).

I would think that the central government, even in a "democracy", has a monopoly of authority within the borders of the nation/state. It would be as illegitimate for Catalan to secede from Spain as it was for the Confederacy to secede from the Union of the United States. No?

Nope. If Scotland had voted for independence then that process would be recognised in international law as signed to by the USA amongst many other countries (including Spain). I see no reason why a Catalonian vote should be any different. They're already pretty independent in terms of language, police and parliaments, much as Scotland is.

 

[Dotini]

Not the same thing, the Catalans haven't showed any Force and historicly have been a country before they where part of Spain, even though they where merged in conquest the desire doesn't look like it's left, and with the aggressive actions of the Franco Dictatorship this has made things significantly worse.

Spain is recognized as the established and seated nation in the UN. Where is the international support for what Catalans are trying to do?

@TenEightyOne

Wasn't Scotland granted authority by London for it's referendum?

 

[Famine]

I sense a deeper meaning to your question than its simple face value

At this time I can tell you, with full clarity, what you all know and what we have seen today; today, we have not had a referendum for self-determination in Catalonia.

So apparently it didn't happen and we're all mistaken by militarised police forces assaulting voters that weren't there and breaking into polling stations that don't exist.

 

[mustafur]

I think if Scotland showed the same desire as the Catalans they would be a fully independent country by now.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So apparently it didn't happen and we're all mistaken by militarised police forces assaulting voters that weren't there and breaking into polling stations that don't exist.

I'm with you now - your questioning usually has the accuracy and reach of a laser cutter so I thought I was about to be grilled on my use of the term "referendum"

It seems from that official statement that we are all indeed mistaken - our mistake and, apparently, Catalonia's too.

Some images at the BBC, may contain images of a violent nature.

Wasn't Scotland granted authority by London for it's referendum?

By its Queen, yes. Her primary residence is in London but she shoots a lot of Scottish animals when on holiday.

 

[Famine]

I assume we've all seen Sky News's appalling, and now deleted (but still cached), Tweet? If not:

 

[Milouse]

So apparently it didn't happen and we're all mistaken by militarised police forces assaulting voters that weren't there and breaking into polling stations that don't exist.

Precision welcome, since your "what referendum?" could had legitimately referred to the fact that the result of a "referendum" , which holding is accepted by mostly only one side of the voters, is meaningless.

 

[Sprite]

I assume we've all seen Sky News's appalling, and now deleted (but still cached), Tweet? If not:

​

So nothing different to when England supporters rock up for a footie match, apart from less toplessness from lardy chavs.

 

[UKMikey]

So nothing different to when England supporters rock up for a footie match, apart from less toplessness from lardy chavs.

And more rubber bullets presumably. The UK prefers the plastic variety.

 

[Famine]

So nothing different to when England supporters rock up for a footie match, apart from less toplessness from lardy chavs.

It was more Sky's comment that suggested the Catalan voters deserved it.

 

[Touring Mars]

I think if Scotland showed the same desire as the Catalans they would be a fully independent country by now.

And therein lies the rub - it surely matters more that a good majority of Scots do not want independence than the fact that those who do are really passionate about it.

 

[ClydeYellow]

Do you think it may come to civil war?

Doubtful. The Spanish Armed Forces are clearly not on the side of the Catalan separatists, same goes for the Guardia Civil.

On a scale going from 1 ("brain dead moron") to 10 ("same, but with a 0 in the end"), how idiotic can Rajoy be? It's one thing to ignore a referendum because it's uncostitutional, another thing entirely to send the riot police to beat up voters. At this point you're basically forbidding people from putting crosses on pieces of paper, and enforcing this prohibition with far excessive force - the results are for everybody to see.