Europe - The Official Thread

[TheCracker]

I don't want to spend our tax dollars and borrowed money for your defense. Do it yourself.

Is it tax dollars spent on 'Europe's defence' or tax dollars spent on having it's own interests in a region of great importance?

Combine the British, French, Italian and German militaries together and you'd have a force any country would think twice about combating. Our militaries combined (and that doesn't include any of the other European forces) are a match for Russia's in troop, naval and airforce strength as well as in annual spending. It's nice to have you around, but we can look after ourselves.

 

[yas]

Hm Russia did more for defending Europe from Daesh and the rest of the cluster**** the US helped create not that far from NATO borders. In the mean time the US is very insistent that NATO members specifically buy american jets and accompanying service, be it far more expensive. Things are not as simple as defend yo **** yo self.
Attack on Russia would be ridiculous to even discuss.

 

[Tired Tyres]

The whole point behind NATO and to an extent the EU was to stop that bunch of constant quarrelling family members - the countries that reside within continent of Europe - from the fights that drew the rest of the planet into two world wars. Surely we are, as members of the NATO collective, stronger together?

The EEC was set up to stop the quarrelling. NATO was set up to keep the Russians out and the Germans down. The EU was set up to undo all the good the EEC did.

 

[Johnnypenso]

( Ignoring your spelling) Really like digging deep into the minutiae, don't we?

In principle, collective defense seemed a sound strategy at the time. Maybe it succeeded. But Afghanistan and the GWOT was, IMO, an unsound and irresponsible waste of time, money and life.

It was a sound strategy at the time. It's kept peace in Europe, kept the shipping lanes open for world trade, and, most importantly, kept the oil flowing out of the Middle East. The development of oil from shale, the discovery of huge natural gas reserves and the general explosion of carbon based energy reserves in the U.S. since the mid-90's has fundamentally altered the US need to play world police to keep the black stuff flowing and the ME from imploding. I see Trump as basically saying, "Look, you guys need the oil, we don't. You guys need protection from the Russians and China, we don't. We've been footing the bill and we don't want to any more. Start ponying up" So Trump goes on a world tour. He's visiting all the world leaders and behind closed doors he's saying, "If you're not with us, we don't care. You're our friend, we like you, but we can't afford to keep paying for your security. If you are with us you win and we win. If not, good luck, you're on your own. Pony up with some investment in the U.S., start paying more for your own security etc. . Abe wants to play ball because he knows he needs the oil to keep flowing and doesn't like the looming threat to the North. He ponies up with a half trillion or so in promised spending. I think he went to NK and said, "Ok Kim, here's the deal. You're either with us, or you can put in with the Chinese and/or the Russians. Korea and Japan is with us. Come take a look at how things work in SK, look at Japan, then take a look at China and Russia. You get the picture. You can have what your brothers and sisters to the south have, or you can have millions of people working in sweatshops and tilling the rice fields. The choice is yours we don't care which way you go. By the way, I have more firepower in the two subs parked 50 miles offshore than you have been able to develop in 20 years so don't jerk me around. Here's a video of what could be. Enjoy" He goes to Europe and get's lectured by Merkel and the EU and basically offered nothing and told, "Hey, if you stop being the nice guy this whole EU thing is going to fall apart". He shrugs, throws her some bubble gum and it's time for the next stop on the tour.

U.K. and the Trump balloon await. You're off to a good start Brits.

He's in a position of strength like the U.S. has never seen before and he's dictating the terms for the forseeable future and those terms are favourable to the U.S.

Spoiler: Usual caveat

This is entirely my own opinion, not a factual representation of what actually happened behind closed doors and anything in quotes is in quotes is for rhetorical purposes only and not an actual quote from an actual person. Read it like a play.

 

[baldgye]

He's in a position of strength like the U.S. has never seen before and he's dictating the terms for the forseeable future and those terms are favourable to the U.S.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Neat picture.

 

[Biggles]

I haven't been able to post recently because I've been busy on the phone with my broker buying into the arms industry.

Who needs a Cold War - happy times are here again for the military industrial complex!

 

[Johnnypenso]

I haven't been able to post recently because I've been busy on the phone with my broker buying into the arms industry.

Who needs a Cold War - happy times are here again for the military industrial complex!

Profits before principles? Has a familiar ring to it.

 

[Imari]

Does power rule the world? Does might make right and ends justify the means? Is Trump pretty clearly in the process of getting rid of Merkel and May from the world scene?

I'd say May and the UK are getting rid of themselves with Brexit. Merkel and Germany seem to be doing just fine.

But on balance, and IMO, it may be that the time has come to shrink or even end NATO altogether.

No. It may be to the US benefit for the US to leave NATO. NATO still has significant value to the European allies.

All that misses the point that the US is ****ing tired of propping you Europeans up. Go do what you want. We are going to stop spending borrowed money on you. It's as simple as that.

Lol. You're propping the Europeans up, eh? How very Trumpian of you.

Times change. There are other strategies and principles that might be more profitably pursued. For instance, it is envisioned by the neocons currently trying to cluster around Trump, that the ultimate goal is to attack, invade and dismember Russia. The choicest provinces and resources would be distributed to our favored allies. Hint, hint. How would you like to suddenly own a huge percentage of the world's oil, gold, rare minerals, fresh water, timber and arable land??

I thought you said you were anti-war. This is your alternative to NATO?

 

[Hun200kmh]

Trump is an idiot, allienating friends and allies all over the world. You can see, from a great distance, what he is trying to do: to boost militar sales to the european countries. I don't think it will work to great effect. And I do think when he leaves office some of the ties broken or stressed will be mended, However … he is the involuntary actor and trigger of an awakening. He will watch western Europe arm itself. But it won't be because of NATO or as allies of the US. It will because the US can no longer be trusted.

And I am not sure I like the way this is going, or where it is heading.

Citing Tolkien …

The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. Much that once was is lost, for none now live who remember it

 

[baldgye]

I guess this fits in here best, but this fact-checking commentary on Trumps speech in Europe;

 

[MatskiMonk]

I guess this fits in here best, but this fact-checking commentary on Trumps speech in Europe;

What an epic epic shaft-clanger Trump is.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I guess this fits in here best, but this fact-checking commentary on Trumps speech in Europe;

My favourite bit is where he blames Obama for "allowing" Russia into Crimea but can't tell you what his position is other than he wouldn't have allowed it.

 

[baldgye]

Interesting observation on this forum and it's members, you only have to mention Trump being a general failure and people jump to his defence, citing North Korea as a huge victory. Yet post a video like the one above, where someone points out the lies, as he makes them and they go quiet...

Anyway!

“President Trump’s brazen insults and denigration of one of America’s most steadfast allies, Germany, is an embarrassment,” read a statement from Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi. “His behavior this morning is another profoundly disturbing signal that the President is more loyal to President Putin than to our NATO allies.”

via

 

[mustafur]

Yet one of the reasons he was critical of Germany was because of the natural gas pipeline from Russia saying Germany are not doing enough to combat Russia.

I don't get it.

https://www.afr.com/news/world/trump-takes-aim-at-germany-over-russian-pipeline-20180711-h12kju

 

[baldgye]

Again, this crosses a threw threads topics but




Asked about Brexit, all he can do is spout lies about himself

 

[Tornado]

Interesting observation on this forum and it's members, you only have to mention Trump being a general failure and people jump to his defence, citing North Korea as a huge victory. Yet post a video like the one above, where someone points out the lies, as he makes them and they go quiet.

For future reference and to avoid any future "observations", what would the appropriate level of glad handing be in response to a video where the Earth shattering conclusion is being drawn that Trump is a pathological liar?

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yet one of the reasons he was critical of Germany was because of the natural gas pipeline from Russia saying Germany are not doing enough to combat Russia.

I don't get it.

https://www.afr.com/news/world/trump-takes-aim-at-germany-over-russian-pipeline-20180711-h12kju

You don't? It's really simple. He criticised Germany for giving Russia money for energy. He wants them to give money to America for energy. When he criticised them on military spending it's because he wants them to spend more money. With American firms. See? Simple really.

 

[mustafur]

You don't? It's really simple. He criticised Germany for giving Russia money for energy. He wants them to give money to America for energy. When he criticised them on military spending it's because he wants them to spend more money. With American firms. See? Simple really.

That went completely over your head, it was a sarcastic answer to what Baldeye was quoting.

 

[Tired Tyres]

That went completely over your head, it was a sarcastic answer to what Baldeye was quoting.

But my answer wasn't exactly serious either.

 

[baldgye]

For future reference and to avoid any future "observations", what would the appropriate level of glad handing be in response to a video where the Earth shattering conclusion is being drawn that Trump is a pathological liar?

 

[Dotini]

You don't? It's really simple. He criticised Germany for giving Russia money for energy. He wants them to give money to America for energy. When he criticised them on military spending it's because he wants them to spend more money. With American firms. See? Simple really.

Somebody finally gets it. Trump is not a pathological liar, he is a pathological salesman.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Liar...

Salesman...

...

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Again, this crosses a threw threads topics but




Asked about Brexit, all he can do is spout lies about himself

This was a weird mix of Abe Simpson telling one of his multi-faceted yarns, and a grade school kid asked to do a presentation in front of the class on a book they haven't read.

 

[Dotini]

According to reports, European ministers have been left reeling in confusion as to what Trump actually intends to do. Equally, it is suggested this unpredictability is just the way The Don wants it.

 

[SestoScudo]

Hm Russia did more for defending Europe from Daesh and the rest of the cluster**** the US helped create not that far from NATO borders. In the mean time the US is very insistent that NATO members specifically buy american jets and accompanying service, be it far more expensive. Things are not as simple as defend yo **** yo self.
Attack on Russia would be ridiculous to even discuss.

Russia defending Europe from ISIS. What a joke lol

You do realise they went into Syria to prop up the murderous dictator which they have a friendship with. Russia was mainly attacking the rebels until isis became a threat to Bashar. If isis was running rampant for the Russians they dont care as long as their boy aka Bashar is not threatened.

 

[TexRex]

This was a weird mix of Abe Simpson telling one of his multi-faceted yarns, and a grade school kid asked to do a presentation in front of the class on a book they haven't read.

It may only be July, but that's definitely a contender for POTY.

"One trick is to tell 'em stories that don't go anywhere, like the time I caught they ferry over to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for my shoe, so I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days, so I tied an onion to my belt which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em; 'Gimme five bees for a quarter,' you'd say. Now where were we? Oh yeah, the important thinig was that I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn't have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones--"

 

[mustafur]

Russia defending Europe from ISIS. What a joke lol

You do realise they went into Syria to prop up the murderous dictator which they have a friendship with. Russia was mainly attacking the rebels until isis became a threat to Bashar. If isis was running rampant for the Russians they dont care as long as their boy aka Bashar is not threatened.

All of which was blow back from the Iraq war.

The murderious dictators are better then what tends to follow.

 

[SestoScudo]

Syria and Libya could have avoided a civil war if their power hungry leaders put in the necessory reforms and then give up power with an election. But nope they would rather keep their power and even use brute force to keep it.

Syrian civil war could have been avoided if Bashar like the Tunisian dictator gave up its power the Syrian civil war was also made worse with many countries involving itself through interventions and backing numerous groups with the use of proxy warfare. Like in the past Syria has become a place for indirect warfare between many countries like it happened in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Spain and many other countries in the past.

 

[yas]

You are throwing a lot of parallel (and I am sorry for the term) bullpoop here.
Do you seriously think all these conflicts were because of people's struggles for... Democracy?
Yes, Russia did interfere to defend it's interests foremost. However they did it effectively and now ISIS has lost most of it's territory. I hate Russia's foreign policies as the next guy, but that worked better for Europe's interest. The US and West could keep on dropping bombs for hundreds of years and still be no closer to any form of success.

And while I guess you will keep on dropping cnn quotes, I need to put these here:
What ISIS is, what lead to its forming and why non of the arab spring countries got off in a better state before they got rid of their dictators:
http://wartard.blogspot.com/2014/09/the-idea-of-isis-history-and-future-of.html?m=1

Why the bombs were not effective:
http://wartard.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-west-v-isis-air-strikes-just-mean_6.html?m=1

Note both articles are from almost four years ago, before the Russians interfered.