Europe - The Official Thread

inCloud
And? We ain't talking about absolute monarchy, he cant ban Muslims.
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It's true that he technically can't outright ban muslims and/or islam - certainly not right now - but he can absolutely make them feel unwelcome, even ones that wouldn't even hurt a fly. And banning mosques and prayers is a pretty big step in that direction.
In effect, I guess such measures could be regarded as a de facto muslim ban - while you can exist in the country, said country doesn't want you and is doing whatever it can to make you want to leave (or preferrably, not make you wanna come there in the first place).
 
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sw3g005
but he can absolutely make them feel unwelcome
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To a degree. Guess people want it. Not sure if it help with immigration.
UKMikey
And? There's nothing centrist about banning mosques and Islamic prayer.
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No one banning mosques and Islamic prayers. Want and will do is different things.

Guess, pro HAMAS rallies have something to do with rise of right wing.
 
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People don't want that, but fear mongers get under the skins of these people. That's how the right gets voters.

Also I doubt there are many pro Hamas rallies, at least not in Europe.
 
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inCloud
And? We ain't talking about absolute monarchy, he cant ban Muslims.
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The problem is that if he could, he would do, and a large part of the country would hail him for doing it.

I dont understand why we should blame that somehow on the left btw.
 
p78
People don't want that, but fear mongers get under the skins of these people. That's how the right gets voters.

Also I doubt there are many pro Hamas rallies, at least not in Europe.
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Media multiply few rallies into many, sure people scared.

Gingerale
I dont understand why we should blame that somehow on the left btw.
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Most European countries are socialistic. Current immigration problems is on them.

Gingerale
The problem is that if he could, he would do, and a large part of the country would hail him for doing it.
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You overreacting.
 
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inCloud
No one banning mosques and Islamic prayers. Want and will do is different things.
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They promised to do this when elected. It's in their manifesto.

Whether the other parties let them do this or not, a pledge like that says a lot about where they are on the political spectrum.
 
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inCloud
Current immigration problems is on them.
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Immigration isn't a "problem" if you have a competent government. Right wing Governments skimming any public service to the absolute bone have no headroom for population increases because they don't want to spend tax revenues on the people, indigenous or not, if there's way it can flesh out the bank account of them or their friends instead.
 
UKMikey
They also pledged to leave the EU.
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Imposibru

MatskiMonk
Right wing Governments
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Its generalization. There are Argentinian lefties that ruined potential of richest country in the world and Saakashvili right government in Georgia that rebuild failed state into modern European country in 4 years. Problem isn't right or left, but incompetent populists.

Far right populists isn't solution for immigration politics, but its sign for lefties to overthink their program that doesn't work well enough, according to Dutch citizens. Europe can't become far right in one or two election cycles. That's my point.
 
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The United Kingdom proves that you can leave the EU, the wisdom of doing so is up to you, but the Netherlands as a eurozone member would be a car crash test case.
 
All the extreme ideas are not going to happen. The PVV needs the moderate parties to form a government and they'll never join if those ideas stay.
 
inCloud
You overreacting.
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No I'm not. Most people vote for him because of his islam viewpoints.

inCloud
Most European countries are socialistic. Current immigration problems is on them.
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Yes and most European countries are socialistic and thriving. But somehow we want to address all the problems we have on immigrants, which is a false statement. So to blame the left for that is wrong. Even so because the Netherlands has been right conservative for quite a while now. Most of our immigration comes from right governments, not from socialistic.
 
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Gingerale
No I'm not. Most people vote for him because of his islam viewpoints.
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While this is true I'd also argue that it's oversimplified. With the alt-right pipeline being a thing across media (actually, right wing media in general is over represented, and this video explains it pretty well), I think most people vote for his views on islam not because they're inherently bad people, but because they've been groomed into that ideology. People who subscribed to those views to begin with (eg. literal neo-nazis) tend to constitute such a small (albeit loud) minority in most countries that populist parties would most likely never be able to get a seat in parliament, let alone win elections. For example Brexit would've probably never happened if the nutjobs alone voted leave, nor would Trump get even remotely close to any of the support he's still enjoying by a fair share of the population.
 
sw3g005
While this is true I'd also argue that it's oversimplified. With the alt-right pipeline being a thing across media (actually, right wing media in general is over represented, and this video explains it pretty well), I think most people vote for his views on islam not because they're inherently bad people, but because they've been groomed into that ideology. People who subscribed to those views to begin with (eg. literal neo-nazis) tend to constitute such a small (albeit loud) minority in most countries that populist parties would most likely never be able to get a seat in parliament, let alone win elections. For example Brexit would've probably never happened if the nutjobs alone voted leave, nor would Trump get even remotely close to any of the support he's still enjoying by a fair share of the population.
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Oh I'm not disagreeing in that, I don't think 30% of the Dutch people is bad, HOWEVER, I do believe that if you are a anti racist you would never vote for him. Simple as that.

Also, it's a very dangerous underestimation to think that someone like Wilders, whos political program is almost purely focussed on 'getting rid of immigration and islam', will never be able to do so. It's a slippery slope, and again, people don't vote for it thinking he will never pull it off, they vote vor him because they hope he can.
 
Gingerale
No I'm not. Most people vote for him because of his islam viewpoints.
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Yes, but it doesn't mean they share them. Enema or **** dilemma.

Gingerale
But somehow we want to address all the problems we have on immigrants
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Thats hot topic, nothing more.

Gingerale
I do believe that if you are a anti racist you would never vote for him
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Maybe ,they believe in institutions and that system will balance itself.
 
I honestly don't see how people can look at the UK, immigration, the left versus the right, and EU membership, and come to the conclusion immigration is a problem caused by the left and that leaving the EU and becoming even more right-wing is any kind of solution. That **** is b-a-n-a-n-a-s.

The party in government here has openly admitted it has to create a culture war to stand a chance in the next election, you can't even trust that they want to stop immigration, they're saying they do, and 'othering' the migrants, so we give them the power to do it, and what happens... record immigration! Nearly 10 years ago our Prime Minister was talking about getting net migration under 100,000... they've been in power since, told us we had to leave Europe to regain control of our borders, we left Europe, that same party managed to stay in power and where's net immigration? 700,000+.

Racism is an issue, perhaps just Islamophobia or perhaps simple tribalism (depends on whatever label you want to use)... but we should never lose sight of why we're being told what we're being told.

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Gingerale
Oh I'm not disagreeing in that, I don't think 30% of the Dutch people is bad, HOWEVER, I do believe that if you are a anti racist you would never vote for him. Simple as that.
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Yuuup. Some people are definitely more vulnerable to the pipeline than others, though once again, I'd argue that's less due to racism and more due to ignorance (which in turn is likely benevolent in nature). Unfortunately, the pipeline also has a tendency to corrupt people - some are able to get away, while others become a lost cause :indiff:
Gingerale
Also, it's a very dangerous underestimation to think that someone like Wilders, whos political program is almost purely focussed on 'getting rid of immigration and islam', will never be able to do so. It's a slippery slope, and again, people don't vote for it thinking he will never pull it off, they vote vor him because they hope he can.
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It's unfortunate, but far too many people/nations have a "can't happen here" attitude regarding populism, and that has, far many times in the past, proven itself to passively allow populists to not just exist but flourish. Why else do you think the following quote exists? "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
 
www.dailymail.co.uk

Rise of Europe's new far Right: Army of young nationalists on march

The young man swaggered along a side street in the Spanish capital. He was sporting tattoos, a thin moustache and wearing a T-shirt with the logo: 'The White Race. Save European Identity.'
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

For decades after that, the far-Right in Spain never dared show its face in public. But that changed in 2019 when the fiercely anti-immigration Vox party won its first foothold in the Cortes, Spain's parliament.
Vox's fortunes have since soared. It now holds nearly a third of the seats in the Cortes after promising a populist agenda of tighter borders, stricter law and order, and the deportation of illegal migrants coming to Spain across the sea from North Africa.
An extraordinary 27 per cent of those under the age of 35 voted for the party in a national poll a year ago. And it's predicted that in other EU nations huge numbers of the young will follow their lead by shifting to the Right in elections for the European Parliament this June.
The fact is that, here in Spain, where one in three people under 25 are jobless and immigration is soaring, trust in mainstream politics has taken a hammering.
The T-shirted youth at the Sunday rally said he plans to cast a vote (yes, for Vox) in the forthcoming polls. But many young Spaniards have lost faith in the ballot box entirely.
They are instead staging media-grabbing protests all over the country in support of a far-Right credo of nationalism and populism.
The poster boy of this rebellion is a well-educated political science student in his twenties called Cesar Pintado.
Like the youth in the T-shirt, he comes from Valladolid with its unsavoury fascist past.
Pintado is linked to a rebel movement called Revolt which is fiercely critical of Spain's Left-wing leaders, and their woke-leaning liberal agenda. Since January, which was soon after Revolt first emerged as an entity via TikTok and other social media, the movement has staged noisy rallies of the young in 11 cities across the country — in every one denouncing the ruling Socialists and prime minister Pedro Sanchez.
Hundreds of Revolt supporters turned up on New Year's Eve at Sanchez's headquarters in Madrid waving Spanish national flags.
Provocatively, they threw around sex toys and Catholic rosaries to get attention from the Press. Out came a papier-mache life-size figure of the premier which they then beat with sticks — an act which his Leftist party denounced, predictably, as a hate crime.
Revolt has already gained 30,000 followers on the social media site X, formerly Twitter, with its messages online calling for 'pressure on the streets against a traitor government' intent on destroying Spain.
'We are gathering in a great patriotic wave to unify Spain. We embrace our Spanish identity. We reject wokeism as a movement defined by anti-racism, feminism, and in favour of LGBTQ rights, and Marxist global forces,' goes the Revolt propaganda machine.
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There is an anti-EU message too. Europe, it claims, is killing the 'uniqueness of individual nations'. The bloc 'promotes massive and uncontrolled immigration... which will lead to a continent where Europeans lose control of their own countries'.
Pintado, a rousing orator, has said at rallies: 'Young people now have the opportunity, and responsibility, to stand up and organise a great revolt to reclaim Spain.'
Spain, of course, is not the only EU country where the far-Right is rising. There has been a dramatic turn against liberal conservatism across the bloc, particularly among the under-30s.
In Germany last week, a survey showed the hardline Alternative for Germany (AfD) is now the most popular party among under-30s.
The survey notes that politically conservative and xenophobic statements have increased among this age group as they object to mass 'refugee flows' causing lack of housing, overburdened medical services and social division.
And even in the mild-mannered Netherlands the message is the same.
Twenty-seven-year-old political activist and 'darling of the young Right' Eva Vlaardingerbroek said on Friday in a speech aired on social media: 'If we don't start to fight for our continent, the time in which we live will go down in history as the time Western nations didn't need to be invaded to be conquered. Our (EU) corrupt elite invited the invaders in.'
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Tomorrow night is the best night in Europe every year - the Eurovision Song Contest. However, it hasn't gone smoothly this year and a proper poopstorm is brewing.

To massively oversimplify, the only word you need to hear is: Israel.
To explain it fully, prepare for a wall of text.

In 2022, Russia and Belarus were both ejected from the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) who organise the event for the roles they had in the invasion of Ukraine. Ukraine competed that year and took victory 3 months after the invasion with what was a worthy performance on the night for a song which had become an anthem of solidarity in the country.

Europe was effectively united against Russia, so although Ukraine's victory was not unexpectedly sealed with a massive public vote, this was a popular and minimally controversial win.

2023 and the win split Europe as Sweden took victory with a song which was overrated by the Professional Juries and which massively underperformed in the Public Televote, with the popular Finnish entry uniting Europe in support of it, only to see the lead Sweden had from the Juries impossible to overcome.

Israel is still waging a controversial and massively dividing war against Hamas Palestine and thus the were were many calls to the EBU to stop Israel from competing due to the humanitarian crisis they were causing. As the aggressor in the war, Israel is seen more as the Russia in this situation than the Ukraine. Many other delegations competing threatened to pull out of competing, but in the end were persuaded by the EBU that Eurovision is a Song Contest, not a Political contest (officially...). Artist competing for these other nations have all faced relentless protest and social media bullying wanting them to withdraw in protest at Israel competing, so much so that the artists all had to put out a joint statement condemning the war but not expressing wishes to withdraw. This abuse has not stopped.

We get to February, and the EBU rejects the songs submitted by the Israeli delegation for being too political. The song "October Rain" was a bit too on-the-nose with reference to the October 7 attack by Hamas on Israelis. This wiwibloggs article explains the references.
The Israeli delegation eventually kept the song from October Rain and hastily, badly, rewrote some lyrics to make the song "Hurricane", which barely passed EBU screening, but was still allowed to compete.

In Malmo this week, there have been many protests against Israel's participation. The delegation have either been to the Arena or in their Hotel rooms for security reasons. During the Family and Jury shows on Wednesday, Israel was roundly booed by the full arena of fans for the duration, as reported by many media outlets. Come the televised Semi-Final, and suddenly the audio seems to have the audience cheering. Fan footage shared on Social Media showed the opposite, the boos were there just as much. The EBU has introduced anti-booing technology since 2015, when the Russian entry was booed just as bad after the annexation of Crimea in 2014.

Israel then was announced as one of the 10 qualifiers to the Grand Final. From a purely musical standpoint, that seemed fair. The song was well sung, staged alright and was performed sincerely. From a moral standpoint, it needed to have been a NQ.

However, the s***storm we may see was "leaked" by RAI in Italy. It is part of the rules of the contest that no country is to share their results from the Semi-Finals. The only result allowed is the 10 qualifiers in a random order so as to not interfere with people's voting patterns before the Grand Final. However, somebody at Rai must have seen the results of their Televote and realised something was up and it needed to be shown as a warning. (For legal reasons everything in italics is purely speculation by me, RAI have released a statement denying it). Most of the 16 entries got votes between 2% and 6% of the share, with the second highest vote going to Netherlands with 7.3%. Concerningly, 39% of the Televotes went to Israel.


Is this a warning to Europe that the protest/support votes for Israel are going to swamp the Grand Final? Granted we only have numbers from one nation which have been stated to be incomplete, but it paints a bleak picture for what was at best the 5th best performance of the night.

I'm a big fan of Eurovision, and have followed this one for months. There are 5 standout songs in the Grand Final of which any one of those would be a deserving winner. We are now staring at the prospect of a divisive war that should have disqualified the nation in the first place railroading an undeserved entry to a third year in a row with a controversial winner. It is worth stating that Ukraine in 2022 and Sweden in 2023 were in that pool of "good enough to win", this Israeli entry certainly is not, especially as it is a hastily reworded "**** Palestine" anthem. With 5 strong entries which will all take a share of the continent's votes, diluting the chance of any of them uniting Europe against the prospect of an overwhelming Israeli vote, this could open the door.

The EBU have made their bed and have to now sleep in it. There is no way to disqualify Israel now, and if the televote is so strongly in Israel's favour, they have to take it. The running order for the final is the best they can do to nullify Israel. The entry is palced on quite early, sandwiched before a good Lithuania and just after one of the favourites - Netherlands' Europapa, a high-energy novelty song with plenty of European imagery and the biggest singalong of all entries.

And now the Netherlands were refused from rehearsing on Friday! Joost Klein (Netherlands' entry) was banned after an "incident" behind the scenes during the rehearsal, no details of which have been released and we can only speculate. He has now been also banned from performing in the Jury final, the performances on Friday night which determine the Jury vote, which makes up 50% of the final scores of the whole tournament. Joost's Semi-Final 2 performance will be shown instead to the Juries. A Press Conference with some entries was cancelled on Friday night, whether it had anything to do with this is unknown.


The EBU have badly mishandled this situation, and tomorrow's Grand Final could end up being a disaster. Fingers Crossed Netherlands are reinstated (or disqualified fully in time with a proper explanation that is reasonable) and someone like Switzerland, Ireland or Croatia come away with the win instead of...
 
I still remember the controversy when they won twice in a row, the second time in their home country.
 
Israel getting 300+ votes in the televoting coupled with the outstanding booing (it really stood out) for them throughout was... quite something.

As was the producer dropping the Netherlands' 12pts for Switzerland as fast as possible to yet more tremendous booing. The Dutch RTL commentator said "**** the EBU" in an earlier live intetview on Dutch TV.
 
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