F1 stepped nose?

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So, if this new rule mandates the height of the nose, how come McLaren is the only team (thus far, still a couple of unveilings to go yet) that hasn't gone for the Formula Lego approach? Surely the smooth curve of the McLaren is more aerodynamicly efficient than a sudden gradient?
 
So, if this new rule mandates the height of the nose, how come McLaren is the only team (thus far, still a couple of unveilings to go yet) that hasn't gone for the Formula Lego approach? Surely the smooth curve of the McLaren is more aerodynamicly efficient than a sudden gradient?

McLaren have always had a low nose compared to the others, it's part of their design philosophy. They had a nose and tub that was way below the maximum height last year, so they (unlike most of the field) could simply further develop the nose as they usually would. Other teams had high tubs, and since the rules changed it was either design a new tub or simply put a step in the nose.

mp427-noses.jpg
 
This is impossible (short of making Formula 1 a spec series). In order to close every loophole in the rules, the FIA would need to think of every possible interpretation of the rules. And then they would need to write the rules in such a way that there is no (or at least very little) room for further interpretation. At which point they would need to reassess the rules and think of every possible interpretation that a) they missed the first time around, and b) which arises from the re-writes of the rules. Even if they made a perfect rulebook, designers will always make more money exploiting loopholes than they would closing them, and so someone would find a way to come up with something new.
Then again, the reason why a new innovation always seems to be through a loop hole, is because the regs are so restrictive. But from FIA's point of view: competitive grid > loop hole saga once a while.

I thought one of the biggest reasons for the demise of ground effects was their unpredictable behavior if they became unsettled during cornering, which led to some horrific accidents. Granted, track safety, preparation, and car construction is much safer since the early-1980s, but I wonder if that will always be a bit of a "dirty word" to the FIA for those reasons.
There was a plan to (originally for 2013, then with the postponing for 2014) to have a big chassis revamp and introduce grounds effects, but the TEAMS rejected the plan... =>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/9307861.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/formula_one/13412925.stm
http://www.crash.net/f1/news/169091/1/ground_effect_abandoned_as_teams_plan_for_2013.html
 
Write unequivocal regulations at least for some parts of the car is much easier than you may think. But they don't want to, that's the problem.

If the Regulation state:
- Mandatory: For safety reasons front nose MUST have THIS shape with THESE demensions. You will receive 3D CAD data with the exact shape and dimensions. If your car for whatever reason won't mach 100% what we request, your team will NOT be allowed to race.
Very good rule, if the point was to have a spec nose. Spec nose, unless you specify "THIS shape" and "THESE dimensions". And once you do that, you'll have room for interpretation.

Sounds clear to me, problem is money is more important than regulations, that's why BS happen.
What has money have to do with the wording of the rules? These loop hole rows aren't exactly good PR and distract from the track action. Teams can't be happy with wasting money on banned solutions either.
 
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If the result of the actual regulations is team are the stepped nose loophole, for safety reasons they can consider to introduce a spec nose.

About F1 politics, you know what happen with Mosley in 2009 right? Unclear rules and grey areas give political power to FIA and Bernie. That's why F1 regulations are written like that. Do you remember when Ferrari was asking for better rules, the FOTA, all that noise etc etc? Here's a quote from wikipedia:
On 29 July 2008, the ten currently competing teams created the Formula One Teams Association (FOTA) to negotiate the terms of contract. After a dispute between FOTA and the FIA in the first half of 2009, a new Concorde Agreement was signed...
Do you know HOW they kept Ferrari quite and signed this C.A. ? Paying them a LOT of money. Ferrari last year earned more money than RB and McL despite winning only one race. Quite strange isn't it? There's an article on Autosport about that, I have the italian version here http://formula1passione.blogfree.net/?t=3862414#entry14399577 You can look for the original, or use google translate.
 
Ferrari have been paid to be in the championship since as long as I can remember. In fact all the teams are paid by the FIA - 50% of the revenue of F1 goes to the teams - but exact values aren't known. It's said it's based on success (Ferrari being most successful) and time spent in the sport (Ferrari being the longest) as well as results.
 
Ferrari have been paid to be in the championship since as long as I can remember. In fact all the teams are paid by the FIA - 50% of the revenue of F1 goes to the teams - but exact values aren't known. It's said it's based on success (Ferrari being most successful) and time spent in the sport (Ferrari being the longest) as well as results.

And we're all well aware of Ferrari's longstanding veto that was given to them to keep them sweet.
 
If the result of the actual regulations is team are the stepped nose loophole, for safety reasons they can consider to introduce a spec nose.
You said writing clearer rules with no loop holes (for some areas) is easy, but then your solution is more spec parts?

About F1 politics, you know what happen with Mosley in 2009 right? Unclear rules and grey areas give political power to FIA and Bernie. That's why F1 regulations are written like that.
No matter how well you write the rules, there are still 1000 engineers who try to interpret them differently. This problem doesn't go away.

Do you remember when Ferrari was asking for better rules, the FOTA, all that noise etc etc? Here's a quote from wikipedia: Do you know HOW they kept Ferrari quite and signed this C.A. ? Paying them a LOT of money. Ferrari last year earned more money than RB and McL despite winning only one race. Quite strange isn't it? There's an article on Autosport about that, I have the italian version here http://formula1passione.blogfree.net/?t=3862414#entry14399577 You can look for the original, or use google translate.
So, they paid Ferrari so that Ferrari would support purposedly badly written regulations... ok. :dunce:
 
So, they paid Ferrari so that Ferrari would support purposedly badly written regulations... ok. :dunce:
No, they didn't pay Ferrari to support regulations that were deliberately written badly. They paid Ferrari to stay in the sport. At the time, Ferrari had been the only team to compete in all fifty seasons of the championship. They decided that they were Formula 1, and that the sport would not survive if they left. Naturally, they decided to extort the FIA with this, threatening to leave unless the FIA paid them off. The FIA acquised, and Ferrari got an $80 million payout.
 
So, they paid Ferrari so that Ferrari would support purposedly badly written regulations... ok. :dunce:
Welcome to the real World. :)

Let's say, using other words, Ferrari is not "supporting badly written regulations" but their position is MUCH SOFTER now, than 2009. Basically they are "accepting" it, because of the very profitable Concorde Agreement.
 
I think you'll find that once the details of the technical veto and payments came to light, the other teams expressed their dissatisfaction enough that the FIA stopped paying Ferrari and Ferrari gave up their technical veto.
 
Technically it's FOM from Bernie, not FIA who pay the money. Teams to run in F1 must find a deal with Bernie signin the Concorde Agreement. You said Ferrari extort, but if they weren't that important Bernie could run F1 without them.. Wonder why that's not what happen'd. You can also say Bernie corrupted Montie. There's no black and white here... just lot of grey areas, like the Regulation. :)

PS. English is not my 1st lenguage may I ask what exactly do you mean with "technical veto"? Thanks.
 
if they weren't that important Bernie could run F1 without them.. Wonder why that's not what happen'd.
They did it at a time when there were less teams on the grid than there were today. They were also supplying several other teams at the time, so a complete withdrawal would jeopardise the existence of those teams, too.

PS. English is not my 1st lenguage may I ask what exactly do you mean with "technical veto"? Thanks.
Ferrari had the right to veto the technical regulations. If a change was proposed that Ferrari did not like, then they could vote no on it in private and the changes would not go ahead, regardless of how much actual support the changes had. So if every team supported it, but Ferrari did not like it, then they could get the changes dropped, and there was nothing the other teams could do about it.
 
As a McLaren fan, I hope the age-old correlation between aesthetics and speed means they have a championship year.

As for regs being exploited, it is one of the things I like about F1, and I suspect they intentionally keep things a little on the grey side then rule a foul when someone pushes it too far.

And for the Lego nose (that's brilliant!), they are pretty ugly, and just as I was getting used to the 2009+ reg car styles too...

Anyway, most sahll be revealed not until Melbourne quali and then not really until the race is over to see which design philosophy is best. How many days to go now?..
 
They did it at a time when there were less teams on the grid than there were today. They were also supplying several other teams at the time, so a complete withdrawal would jeopardise the existence of those teams, too.
So Bernie kept Ferrari becuase he can save Toro Rosso and other small teams? :) That's not the main reason and you know. Without Ferrari, all the sponsor, F1 partners, TV, wouldn't pay the same amount of money to Bernie.
Ferrari had the right to veto the technical regulations. If a change was proposed that Ferrari did not like, then they could vote no on it in private and the changes would not go ahead, regardless of how much actual support the changes had. So if every team supported it, but Ferrari did not like it, then they could get the changes dropped, and there was nothing the other teams could do about it.
Thanks for the explaination, so kind of make sense now. Montezemolo accepted the money and added this veto so he can somehow control the way this Regulation is goin to. Let's not forget after Schumacher era, Mosley and FIA gradually removed every single Ferrari weapon using the excuse of costs reduction. (no more eletronic, no more new engines, no more private tests, etc). And considering what happen'd in 2009 with the illegal BrawnGP, this technical vero (and the money) are the effect of all this power struggle.
Still don't think this connection between wording of the regulations and the other political stuff is as direct in the real real world as you want to make it.
If reality hurts you are free to believe what you want. I understand you and I won't blame you for that.
 
So Bernie kept Ferrari becuase he can save Toro Rosso and other small teams? :) That's not the main reason and you know. Without Ferrari, all the sponsor, F1 partners, TV, wouldn't pay the same amount of money to Bernie.
Stop trying to make out that Ferrari were somehow innocent in all of this. They blackmailed the Powers That Be into paying them off because of their inflated sense of self-worth. Just look at every rule change they have suggested in recent years - third cars being their most recent favourite - and claimed that it will be for the benefit of the sport. Sure, Formula 1 might get something out of it, but Ferrari always has the most to gain.
 
I thought one of the biggest reasons for the demise of ground effects was their unpredictable behavior if they became unsettled during cornering, which led to some horrific accidents. Granted, track safety, preparation, and car construction is much safer since the early-1980s, but I wonder if that will always be a bit of a "dirty word" to the FIA for those reasons.

Indeed, but plenty of cars today use ground effects safely such as Indycars. The idea isn't to become solely reliant on either wings or ground effects, just less reliant on the wings or to be more specific, less reliant on airflow over the front of the car to grip in the corners.
Although the unpredictability of ground effects coupled with the F1 teams' relative lack of experience designing a ground-effects car are part of why the idea was dropped.

I still think there is some merit to the idea, anything to get the cars so they can follow each other closer in the corners. DRS, KERS and the silly small/big wings are not helping this issue, just patching it up by making it so that car behind can regain the ground they lost from the turbulence.
This is why DRS in particular is seen as rather cheap and false way of creating overtaking - its not something bred from any kind of skill but simply a way of dodging the real issue and increasing a statistic. Its a joke that F1 has to rely on such a system just to make overtakes possible. Forcing a situation where the driver in front must submit to the driver behind simply because a certain distancing was achieved is such a cold and arbitrary way of deciding an overtake.
 
Indeed, but plenty of cars today use ground effects safely such as Indycars. The idea isn't to become solely reliant on either wings or ground effects, just less reliant on the wings or to be more specific, less reliant on airflow over the front of the car to grip in the corners.
Although the unpredictability of ground effects coupled with the F1 teams' relative lack of experience designing a ground-effects car are part of why the idea was dropped.

I still think there is some merit to the idea, anything to get the cars so they can follow each other closer in the corners. DRS, KERS and the silly small/big wings are not helping this issue, just patching it up by making it so that car behind can regain the ground they lost from the turbulence.
This is why DRS in particular is seen as rather cheap and false way of creating overtaking - its not something bred from any kind of skill but simply a way of dodging the real issue and increasing a statistic. Its a joke that F1 has to rely on such a system just to make overtakes possible. Forcing a situation where the driver in front must submit to the driver behind simply because a certain distancing was achieved is such a cold and arbitrary way of deciding an overtake.

IMO DRS was a great addition... if a driver is holding another one back in a dificult circuit to overtake its great and gives him a chance to cach someone that might be taking advantage from that and keep the race interesting if not then the driver that was overtaken in the last lap can overtake in the following and keep the race interesting... IMO its a win win situation.
 
IMO DRS was a great addition... if a driver is holding another one back in a dificult circuit to overtake its great and gives him a chance to cach someone that might be taking advantage from that and keep the race interesting if not then the driver that was overtaken in the last lap can overtake in the following and keep the race interesting... IMO its a win win situation.

So basically Senna at Monaco 92 wouldn't happen then. 👎
And how many times did we really see the overtaken driver re-overtake the following lap in the DRS zone last year? Almost never - why? Because you've already put the faster car ahead, some of the defending and battling you would normally get is taken away. Sure, there were some tracks which DRS created a battle where there would otherwise be none. But there were also times where it robbed us of a great fight on the track as the driver behind could just breeze past.

A track thats difficult to overtake on should be difficult. Taking that away gives us more overtakes but less quality overtakes. People remember Piquet and Senna at the Hungaroring because its so difficult to overtake and Piquet had to pull off an overtake with some very visible skill, not simply because they changed positions.

I watch motor-racing for racing. Not for X number of overtakes. I can quite happily watch a race with 0 overtaking manouveres as long as there are plenty of battles.
 
So basically Senna at Monaco 92 wouldn't happen then. 👎
And how many times did we really see the overtaken driver re-overtake the following lap in the DRS zone last year? Almost never - why? Because you've already put the faster car ahead, some of the defending and battling you would normally get is taken away. Sure, there were some tracks which DRS created a battle where there would otherwise be none. But there were also times where it robbed us of a great fight on the track as the driver behind could just breeze past.

I dont really agree with that, there's not much situation where DRS killed a good fight, can you mention one important fight that was killed by DRS ? OK it let people like schumacher who had trouble qualifying overtaking much easier slower car, but that's not bad, I quite like it. When I'm racing on game I hate that I'm stuck someone slower than me who's blocking my every move. At least with DRS those kind of things dont happen because they can't move back and forth on the straight. Even more wiht the new rule, where the driver moving from left to right, can't remove to left to take the next right turn. I like the direction F1 is taking actually, more spectacular at least for me. When I'm watching a race I love to see overtake. For me the Schumacher area was very boring.
 
Stop trying to make out that Ferrari were somehow innocent in all of this. They blackmailed the Powers That Be into paying them off because of their inflated sense of self-worth. Just look at every rule change they have suggested in recent years - third cars being their most recent favourite - and claimed that it will be for the benefit of the sport. Sure, Formula 1 might get something out of it, but Ferrari always has the most to gain.
Again, what you fail to understand is Ferrari wanted to move away from this Bernie F1 and the BS FIA. If Bernie down on his knees, imploerd Ferrari to stay you should blame him instead. Look this is the indycar Enzo Ferrari built in 1986.

C_3_Media_794626_immagine_xl.jpg
 
I dont really agree with that, there's not much situation where DRS killed a good fight, can you mention one important fight that was killed by DRS ? OK it let people like schumacher who had trouble qualifying overtaking much easier slower car, but that's not bad, I quite like it. When I'm racing on game I hate that I'm stuck someone slower than me who's blocking my every move. At least with DRS those kind of things dont happen because they can't move back and forth on the straight. Even more wiht the new rule, where the driver moving from left to right, can't remove to left to take the next right turn. I like the direction F1 is taking actually, more spectacular at least for me. When I'm watching a race I love to see overtake. For me the Schumacher area was very boring.

DRS doesn't stop people weaving on straights nor am I saying I particularly enjoyed the lack of overtaking in the past decade.
No, I don't like that faster cars can easily pass slower cars - that isn't racing. So what you're saying is that even if a slower car manages to beat a faster one thanks to strategy or qualifying, that it doesn't matter that they are unable to defend their position effectively and a far faster car is given a free pass?

Overtaking should be easier but it shouldn't be a free pass. If the cars could follow each other in the corners, the overtakes would be easier but Schumacher would still have to do the work to get past and the defending driver still has a chance. DRS doesn't do that, it basically forces the slower car into a position it cannot defend by giving the car behind such a speed advantage on a straight that there is no chance of counter-attacking or out-braking.

Take the 1992 Monaco example. If we applied DRS to that scenario (lets just assume we could make Monaco big enough for DRS to be effective), you're saying you would be happy seeing Mansell breeze past Senna instead of the real outcome? You get your overtake but it is it better?

Defensive driving is just as much a part of an on-track battle as overtaking is. And believe it or not, but you can drive defensive without "blocking every move". DRS to me is going the direction of completely eliminating defensive driving, and then we just have a NASCAR-style drafting overtake...without the oval to counter-draft overtake.
 
DRS doesn't stop people weaving on straights nor am I saying I particularly enjoyed the lack of overtaking in the past decade.
No, I don't like that faster cars can easily pass slower cars - that isn't racing. So what you're saying is that even if a slower car manages to beat a faster one thanks to strategy or qualifying, that it doesn't matter that they are unable to defend their position effectively and a far faster car is given a free pass?

Overtaking should be easier but it shouldn't be a free pass. If the cars could follow each other in the corners, the overtakes would be easier but Schumacher would still have to do the work to get past and the defending driver still has a chance. DRS doesn't do that, it basically forces the slower car into a position it cannot defend by giving the car behind such a speed advantage on a straight that there is no chance of counter-attacking or out-braking.

Take the 1992 Monaco example. If we applied DRS to that scenario (lets just assume we could make Monaco big enough for DRS to be effective), you're saying you would be happy seeing Mansell breeze past Senna instead of the real outcome? You get your overtake but it is it better?

Defensive driving is just as much a part of an on-track battle as overtaking is. And believe it or not, but you can drive defensive without "blocking every move". DRS to me is going the direction of completely eliminating defensive driving, and then we just have a NASCAR-style drafting overtake...without the oval to counter-draft overtake.

Wrong wrong wrong. Monaco is something else simply put, saying let's say we can overtake blahblahblah. DRS didnt change a single thing this year. And it wont because it's a track out of time. However if I want to be a little bit of an ass, I could say that for example that with DRS Senna wouldnt have taken prost out on suzuka but rather would have try to overtake him properly. That's something I would have love to see honestly.

Weaving and DRS is 2 different things, however weaving now is forbidden in the rules, you can only do 1 change. Check the new rules for this year.

You have your opinion I have mine, it's obviously different from yours so why not staying here, there's no need to try to convince me, I've been following F1 for 22 years now and the last year was one of the most exciting for me to follow since the prost-senna era.
 
So basically Senna at Monaco 92 wouldn't happen then. 👎
And how many times did we really see the overtaken driver re-overtake the following lap in the DRS zone last year? Almost never - why? Because you've already put the faster car ahead, some of the defending and battling you would normally get is taken away. Sure, there were some tracks which DRS created a battle where there would otherwise be none. But there were also times where it robbed us of a great fight on the track as the driver behind could just breeze past.

A track thats difficult to overtake on should be difficult. Taking that away gives us more overtakes but less quality overtakes. People remember Piquet and Senna at the Hungaroring because its so difficult to overtake and Piquet had to pull off an overtake with some very visible skill, not simply because they changed positions.

I watch motor-racing for racing. Not for X number of overtakes. I can quite happily watch a race with 0 overtaking manouveres as long as there are plenty of battles.

This. I was almost in tears when Schumacher lost out on a possible 2nd place at Montreal, which he drove like a man on a mission to get to in the first place, only to have Button and Webber breeze past. KERS and these new Pirelli tyres do the trick well enough, KERS helping considerably if you ask me. The choice of extra power to use either to attack or to defend, but limited per lap, helps us to have some good battles, so long as every car has it.

Wrong wrong wrong. Monaco is something else simply put, saying let's say we can overtake blahblahblah. DRS didnt change a single thing this year. And it wont because it's a track out of time. However if I want to be a little bit of an ass, I could say that for example that with DRS Senna wouldnt have taken prost out on suzuka but rather would have try to overtake him properly. That's something I would have love to see honestly.

Weaving and DRS is 2 different things, however weaving now is forbidden in the rules, you can only do 1 change. Check the new rules for this year.

You have your opinion I have mine, it's obviously different from yours so why not staying here, there's no need to try to convince me, I've been following F1 for 22 years now and the last year was one of the most exciting for me to follow since the prost-senna era.

Senna took Prost out in 1991 because Prost did the same to Senna in the previous year, gifting Prost the title, while Senna was disqualified because of Balestre's Frenchman bias towards Prost. Not only that, but Ayrton demanded that the grids be switched, so that he could start on the clean side of the grid and be able to benefit from his pole position, but his demands were rejected. DRS would probably not have changed anything back then.

Weaving on a straight has been banned for decades. You were always only allowed one single defensive move on a straight. The only change this year is that you now are not allowed to defend like Schumacher did against Hamilton at Monza last year, meaning you are now not allowed to swerve back at the last minute to have the racing line into the following corner, you have to hold your stance into the next corner.

This new rule is probably going to cripple the defending car even further, because now he will not only have no chance of stopping the already faster car from breezing past artificially with up to 20kph of advantage on the straight, but if he dare defend on the straight, he will have the disadvantage into the following corner. I can understand this on safety grounds, but it is a new rule created arguably due to DRS, and will make it even more effective, and thus, kill the quality of the racing further.
 
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