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- mrvajj
F1 Winter Testing (2012)
- Thread starter Hun200kmh
- 440 comments
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- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
You have to start somewhere, they are here to win, but they are struggling with the budget and resources they have.
If we only had teams who could win, why not just kick out every team except McLaren and Ferrari?
F1 is just as much about the front of the grid as it is the back. The same applies to all sports - its just in motorsport the extra problem of money and resources makes it difficult for new teams to beat established teams. Do you ask the same of Conference-level football clubs? Whats the point in playing professional football if you can't make it to the Premier League? Same answer I give here - everyone has the same goal and everyone has to start somewhere.
Caterham is not a fair comparison really as they came in and continue with a far greater budget, experience and resources.
Marussia comprises of mainly Manor staff and HRT had Colin Kolles' Le Mans team (now they are having to hire again). Compare this to Caterham who employ half of Toyota's old F1 team and now quite a lot of ex-Renault and Force India staff.
I can't understand how anyone can say HRT or Marussia lack commitment. Simply making the grid takes a huge amount of commitment! If anything these teams work harder than the top teams as they employ well over half the people to do double the work!
- 2,073
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- mrvajj
A more pertinent question is if you aren't going to try then why bother? That may seem harsh but the truth is if they really wanted to compete, they'd have more resources/be improving their processes. I mean come on, this is Marussia and HRT's third year now, and they STILL can't build a car for testing? That's pretty pathetic.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
What's the point then in Sauber trying after 20 years? They have never built a championship-contending car. Isn't that pathetic too?
What about Ferrari's record in the 80s/early 90s? Would you have told them to give up? Ferrari's domination of 2000-2004 - should we have just not ran a championship and called it a day?
Why do people try to win despite the odds? Because thats what they love to do. That is in essense the whole point of sport - to beat the odds, to fight and succeed. If it were easy, it would be boring. To suggest people give up is to suggest that people don't compete - if people stop bothering to compete, what is the point anyone competing?
There are no absolutes of the future - HRT and Marussia will almost certainly struggle. But that doesn't mean they will always struggle. For all we know a major sponsor could turn up and transform their fortunes. Or they could bit by bit claw some performance in the way that Caterham have (albeit requiring a little better investment than currently). I don't see why they should give up though.
What about Ferrari's record in the 80s/early 90s? Would you have told them to give up? Ferrari's domination of 2000-2004 - should we have just not ran a championship and called it a day?
Why do people try to win despite the odds? Because thats what they love to do. That is in essense the whole point of sport - to beat the odds, to fight and succeed. If it were easy, it would be boring. To suggest people give up is to suggest that people don't compete - if people stop bothering to compete, what is the point anyone competing?
There are no absolutes of the future - HRT and Marussia will almost certainly struggle. But that doesn't mean they will always struggle. For all we know a major sponsor could turn up and transform their fortunes. Or they could bit by bit claw some performance in the way that Caterham have (albeit requiring a little better investment than currently). I don't see why they should give up though.
- 2,073
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- mrvajj
Erm, Apples v Oranges anyone? Sauber are capable of respectable results. HRT and Marussia aren't, and won't ever be, unless they decide to get serious about competing. Sauber are punching above their weight most of the time. HRT and Marussia aren't. I'm sorry, but in your third year if you can't get your car ready in time surely that's saying something?
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- jcm-16
peter_vod69
Ummm, no. Both of their cars are ready. They're both driveable and under last year's rules they would both be allowed to test already. However, under the new 2012 rules, they have to pass all crash tests before they can test. HRT have now passed all their crash tests, Marussia have one left. Even the top teams fail crash tests, all it means is that they're trying to be as fast as possible. They're trying to make the car as light as possible, but sometimes that means it's not quite strong enough to pass the crash tests.
- 2,073
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- mrvajj
- 996
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- jcm-16
peter_vod69
Under the 2011 rules they are both ready. The new rules force the teams to pass crash tests. Marussia's car is driveable, however they simply failed one of their crash tests. They'll be ready for the first practice session.
HRT have passed all crash tests and will be using their new car at the final test.
Mercedes didn't participate in the first test either, does this mean they don't try hard enough?
- 2,073
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- mrvajj
Relevance?
Everyone had access to the CURRENT rules.
But they were never going to have their car ready for testing anyway (apart from in their imaginations).
And with no yardstick, no idea how their car works on the track, they'll be geologically slow no doubt. Again.
Finally.
Hopefully.
No it means they got some element of the design wrong, they were still on track to be ready, unlike the poor, unfortunates (whom we should all feel sympathy for, apparently) mentioned above. I'm sorry I just don't see why a lack of professionalism should be excused! At best they will both spend another season as mobile chicanes, at worst they will be unreliable and put their own drivers (and others) at risk, all while being a laughing stock.
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What are you basing that on? Before the MR01 failed the crash test, there was no evidence that the team would not be able to use the car at the final test.
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When the Marussia MR-01 finally does launch, I have a feeling we're going to be seeing a revised livery. They've just announced a partnership with Carlin in GP2, and this is the team's new livery:
And they're continuing their association with Manor Motorsports in GP3, with this livery spotted during testing at Estoril:
So I would not be surprised if the MR-01 launches with a similar design.
And they're continuing their association with Manor Motorsports in GP3, with this livery spotted during testing at Estoril:
So I would not be surprised if the MR-01 launches with a similar design.
- 10,373
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- Ardius_
I don't see how its any different, if you get rid of HRT and Marussia - the logic you are using surely wouldn't stop there? Whats the point in anyone turning up if they regularly show they can't compete with the rest?
Getting the car ready on time isn't the point you were making - but rather the general state of the team being uncompetitive as well as not getting the car ready on time. I don't see how this is different to a team regularly showing for 20 years they are incapable of challenging for the championship and only ever achieve average results. What is the point eh?
Why do you continue to refer to it as "get serious about competing"? How on earth are HRT and Marussia not serious? Its not as if they are sat their team base being lazy leaving things to the last minute! I'm sure it is quite the opposite!
Finishing last or struggling to compete or finish your car is not a sign of laziness or a lack of commitment.
- 22,551
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- HamiltonMP427
They're barely a three year old team...Sauber has been around much longer, you don't just figure F1 out over night. How do you know they're not serious, obviously you don't read to much F1 news if you think HRT aren't trying. They rebuild their entire group and are under new ownership and managment and even moving to a new area. Sauber should be punching above their weight they have had the practice, that should be obvious. Season hasn't started so not sure where you're getting the cars aren't ready from. Good job jumping the gun though.
The question I have is how long has Peter_vod watched F1 because I get the feeling that it hasn't been long.
Tired Tyres
Premium
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Tired Tyres
I think that's just a fair generalization, F1 has had several teams stick it out for nearly a decade with little success. Sauber has one win to show for it, but to be fair, they have never created a car that floundered in the "last third" of the pack, unlike, say...Osella, Arrows, or Ligier.
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- mrvajj
Sigh...
IF THEY WERE PROPERLY PREPARED AND READY THEY WOULD'VE STARTED TESTING THEM. THEY AREN'T SO THEY HAVEN'T.
It is clear that reading and comprehension aren't your strong points. If they were, you'd have noticed I wasn't directly comparing HRT/Marussia to Sauber, merely responding to Ardius' attempt to draw a long bow.
HRT and Marussia are still making the same stumbles they were when they came in. They either don't have, or will not find the budget, commitment or resources to compete. Either way, there shouldn't be room for excuses in F1.
Since the early nineties. But oh the waste those years have been! Obviously your knowledge is far superior to mine. You've probably got more F1 news websites bookmarked than I do, thus making you an expert, and how can I hope to compete with such a vast wealth of information and F1 expertise such as yours?
PS Questions usually have a QUESTION MARK at the end of them.
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- CHVRCHES_GTP
Sauber did produce a car capable of winning the championship but to be fair, it's both Sauber's and BMW's effort to design and build a good car. Sauber on their own might not have the same amount of budget and capability as when they were with BMW to build a championship winning car and BMW spent a large sum of money for developments - close to 100m Euro if I remember correctly.
The reason why their performance started to fall at the end of the season was due that they were already concentrating on their 2009 contender - at the same time they were also favouring Heidfeld to boost his qualifying performance.
- 10,373
- Manchester
- Ardius_
Yes, my point was that Sauber generally have stayed in roughly the same position. I don't think the 2008 car was capable of winning the championship, circumstances led Kubica to be in contention and the car was very good but in the end it didn't really fight for championship. If BMW had committed to 2008 rather than 2009, it would still have been tough for Kubica to win.
If we are asking what is the point after 3 years that HRT and Marussia haven't really improved, then why can't that question be levelled at any team? Its the same logic.
A similar example is Minardi/Toro Rosso. Although they are even worse because they are hamstrung by being the "Red Bull Junior Team" - not even being able to choose their own drivers that would be best for them.
We could also look at Williams - whats the point in keeping racing when they are on such a very clear decline in form? Whats the point in Jaguar or even Red Bull competing (in its early years) when they struggled to really make anything from their cars for several years?
Everyone competes in sport for challenge and the love of competition. That is the "point" in HRT and Marussia continuing - because even scraping an entry and struggling to finish the car is a challenge in itself.
From a fans perspective, having HRT and Marussia in the sport gives another angle, another story to follow than just the winning teams and drivers. I like to follow the progress of such teams as they attempt to keep on the grid as much as I follow the winners.
These teams prove how hard it is to compete at the top level - and when they achieve success its much easier to appreciate and understand the seriously huge amount of effort it takes to get there.
My main gripe with this discussion though is the suggestion that somehow these teams lack commitment or are somehow being lazy. I can't even begin to describe how wrong that is and how far apart HRT is to the likes of say Andrea Moda....
HRT and Marussia today are no less professional and organised than say perennial tail-enders like Arrows and Minardi were. Back in the 80s and 90s it was quite common for teams to introduce their new cars mid-season if we want to talk about teams not finishing their cars on time!
- 22,551
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- HamiltonMP427
Teams have waited in the past to test their cars and they failed a crash test, that doesn't mean the car wasn't ready. A unforseen event happened and they had to go back and fix it. Ferrari failed the crash test this year too but came back because they have the money and man power. Also the all caps thing doesn't help you any, you come up with these daft points and hardly the insight to make them work.
It is clear that reading and comprehension aren't your strong points. If they were, you'd have noticed I wasn't directly comparing HRT/Marussia to Sauber, merely responding to Ardius' attempt to draw a long bow.[/QUOTE]
Well you obviously want to take pot shots because you cant clearly argue the point you should get your emotions in check it's the internet. It's called a rough comparison that I was going with as well, not saying you were trying to show a direct correlation but you didn't do yourselves any favors.
Really, that's funny HRT are getting KERS this year to compete, they figured out the stepped nose. They are also suppose to have the 2012 Williams Transmission. Once again HRT are moving to a bigger facility to get themselves more established they have Thesian Capital as their main owner and new management with a set idea where they want to go. Along with bringing in PDR they have a driver with a wealth of experience that knows how to help develop a true race car. All this shows a long term plan for HRT to be more than a back marker. They are making their own car for the first time which is probably another reason they weren't fully ready. They are rumored to also be working with Caterham in the same way RBR and STR did in 2009.
Marussia I'm more willing to make negative comments about, but the truth is they are trying and McLaren are helping them. They get to use the wind tunnel at McLaren and that is more than they had the past two years with the whole CFD. They are also not going to have a stepped nose, this has been claimed to be due to not figuring it out. However, since they're working at the McLaren facility and McLaren just happen to be the other car without it that might be more of the reason than any. They wont run kers and that could go either way for them. They are also claimed to have some mechanical help from McLaren like with that and the x-trac transmission.
Point is yes, you don't think they're worth the time of F1 and they're a joke. However teams like this have been around for quite some time in F1 it isn't anything new. For someone who has watched F1 for such a extended amount of time would be aware of that and just not foam from the mouth, that was the point to my curiosity about how long you've been an F1 fan.
It baffles me that you go around and take pot shots at people all the time, as if you're so greater than thou and you have this belated ego. Yet when a few of us strike out against you, you become somewhat emotional in your argument, get a grip and debate the topic respectfully all the other extra baggage can be done without.
Well I'm glad you recognize I'm far superior to you, it took you long enough
. Since I'm not really posing the question to him and just making a simple comment, it doesn't require it, if I instead posed it to you then it would have. If you're going to try and do some grammar 101 lesson please be a bit more informed and stop grasping for straws. If you want to teach me a grammar lesson do so in PM.^ Exactly, how many want to forget that it was normal for teams to do this back then and many worse teams could be named than the two backmarkers that are currently racing. This is what I dont understand, you can talk bad about HRT and Marussia as if they're the first teams to have these issues or better yet the first teams to fail the 107% because the 90s could easily be looked at to correct those who easily forget.
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- 29,984
- Bratvegas
- GTP_Liquid
Andrea Moda, Fondametal, Zakspeed, Haas-Lola, Life, Dallara, BMS, Onyx, FIRST, Forti, Lola, Osella, EuroBrun, Coloni, Pacific, Modena and AGS are all teams from the 'professional' era of the mid-1980s onwards who were arguably worse than HRT or Marussia. Andrea Moda especially; they're the #1 team failure on F1 Rejects.
And that list doesn't include 'successful' backmarker teams like Minardi, Arrows or the late Tyrrells. Or flops that on occasion did well like Larrousse or Leyton House.
Give HRT/Marussia credit. They've come in and as others have pointed out, done better and been better prepared than some other teams, lest we forget.
And that list doesn't include 'successful' backmarker teams like Minardi, Arrows or the late Tyrrells. Or flops that on occasion did well like Larrousse or Leyton House.
Give HRT/Marussia credit. They've come in and as others have pointed out, done better and been better prepared than some other teams, lest we forget.
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MazdaPrice
The main "fault" with today's F1 is that it's too reliable, teams like AGS, BMS Dallara, Zakspeed, and a few others managed to claim a few points based on their reliablility when front-runners broke down or crashed out.
On average, I'd say maybe 12 drivers finished each race from the 1970s through the mid-1990s. Even front runners had unreliable moments and some off-races where they were occasionally average. Mid-pack teams are also more consistent, too. Looking back, perhaps twice a decade produced 20 finishers in a single event. For the past few years, it now happens roughly every other event.
With 10 points-paying positions today, but usually 18 finishers, and the "stability" of top teams from weekend to weekend, there's little chance to break into the points. These slow teams are rarely way too slow so as to be hazards, they're not getting lapped 7-8 times a race, either.
Even the "worst" teams today have a level of dedication and professionalism that many teams from the past would have only dreamed of. Part of that is the way F1 has transformed over the years, but some of the shenanigans of the past have also been shed.
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You are correct Pupik. Lest we forget Suzuki in the Larrousse on the podium at Suzuka in 1990. Or Onyx on the podium at Estoril in 1989 thanks to Stefan Johansson. BMS also scored two 3rd positions.
Increased reliability has made it ever harder for the backmarkers to creep into the points.
Increased reliability has made it ever harder for the backmarkers to creep into the points.
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- mrvajj
The all caps was because I getting annoyed at the fact that I had to repeat myself, because you couldn't be bothered reading.
And you weren't? With your snide, "I wonder how long Peter's been watching F1" rubbish?
Nobody outside HRT has seen a car though. Hence my comment about them not being ready.
Again, where is their car? Why wasn't it at the first, or even second test? Because it wasn't (and still isn't) ready!
Yes, there have been teams in the past that have done a much worse job than HRT or Marussia, but the era has long since passed where you should be excused for any of the rubbish they are going on with. The sport is simply too professional these days to have teams not showing up to tests. Especially, especially when the aforementioned teams are as far behind the eight ball as they are. I don't think they are a joke, I think they aren't up to the job.
Baffles you? You took the first shot chief. Oh and why would you (and these "others") need to "strike out" if you are so much better at arguing, and you can leave emotion out of it? Methinks what is good for the goose isn't necessarily what is good for the gander...
PS I think you mean "inflated ego". Belated means "coming later than it should".
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By your logic, McLaren was a rubbish team in 2003, since their MP4/18 which was supposed to contest the 2003 season, was never raced, because of multiple crashes in testing, and crash test failures.
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Go ahead and start a team in Formula 1 with something like $40,000,000 and be successful. Then you can talk.
Stop bringing up Sauber as a comparison, Sauber has far more technical resources and talent, as well as experience and funding as HRT and Virgin, they are hardly punching above their weight, if you ask me.
HRT and Marussia are unspectacular, yes, but the fact that they are down but never out, keep on fighting for results, and try so very hard, all the time, is admirable. They survive on what is pocket change to a team like Ferrari.
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- Ardius_
Actually I brought up Sauber only to serve as a similar example against this logic of "failing to make progress so many times so what is the point?".
Simply because they don't make progress in 2, 10, 20 hell 50 years doesn't mean teams should just give up. If you're going to end up in such an anti-competitive attitude, you shouldn't be taking part in sports in the first place.
In a similar vein, its why I don't hold a lot of love really for car manufacturers fully owning teams - because they are rarely in the sport for the long term and regularly pull out when they don't get the results they expect or because of their own financial problems. But unlike a major sponsor simply leaving a team, manufacturers seem to just allow teams to collapse entirely..though to be fair Honda, BMW and Renault have at least tried to help the teams they left this time around.
These companies shouldn't be owning teams entirely because they are not getting involved for sporting, competing reasons but for marketing reasons. Giving up is a regular option for them.
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