Fanatec CSW/CSR Elite Modders Thread *UPDATE February 2014*

[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

I kind of wondered if notching the belt would help. What method are you hinting at? You coy racer, you.

 

[eKretz]

RacerXX has his cooling already functional Cote, I just have to finalize my setup and then I'll share photos. RacerXX is more in the "show me yours and I'll show you mine" camp with the water cooling setup it seems, lol. Next he'll want to play doctor!!

 

[Cote Dazur]

Not sure what you mean…MOK water cooling ends cooling woes for the most part.

I was hoping for pictures, Fbb fading test, while having mok applied to the motors, just curious.

 

[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

After that, simplify and add bling.

Heh, not far off of old Colin Chapman's mantra.

 

[Cote Dazur]

I'll do a Fana-Blog on it at some point.

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👍

 

[eKretz]

Hmm, I just did a few little tests after setting up my new power supply, stall tested the Bühlers in parallel and singularly and then the Fana-Buchis. Interestingly, when holding the Fanas at stall @24VDC but slowly rotating the motor's shaft, they felt very jumpy/notchy, while the Bühlers felt like a perfectly constant smooth force. I also brought the motors up slowly from 0-30VDC under no load, just to listen. The Bühlers were smooth and quiet, but the Fanas were really acting odd. They were quiet for a certain amount of voltage change, then there would be a big jump in volume level for a certain range of voltage, then quiet for awhile, then a big jump, then quiet, etc. Sort of like it was fighting to build RPM, then jumping with a big increase, then fighting, then jumping, etc. These are brand new Fana motors too, never been in a wheel at all.

P.S. please disregard the copper coils on the motor here, this was just a scrap piece to see if the tubing would kink while wrapping and for a few preliminary tests. I'm making a jig for the final coils.

 

[MissJoan]

Hmm, I just did a few little tests after setting up my new power supply, stall tested the Bühlers in parallel and singularly and then the Fana-Buchis. Interestingly, when holding the Fanas at stall @24VDC but slowly rotating the motor's shaft, they felt very jumpy/notchy, while the Bühlers felt like a perfectly constant smooth force. I also brought the motors up slowly from 0-30VDC under no load, just to listen. The Bühlers were smooth and quiet, but the Fanas were really acting odd. They were quiet for a certain amount of voltage change, then there would be a big jump in volume level for a certain range of voltage, then quiet for awhile, then a big jump, then quiet, etc. Sort of like it was fighting to build RPM, then jumping with a big increase, then fighting, then jumping, etc. These are brand new Fana motors too, never been in a wheel at all.

Both of these phenomenon are likely related to the armature design differences. The Bühler motors having the "spiral" armature and what looks to be more poles.

 

[eKretz]

You think so? I'm not sure, I have a couple smaller straight armature 5 poles that are very smooth also. (The Fana-Buchis are 5 pole, the Bühlers 7 pole). It seems more like a cheap motor problem. Possibly brush contact related maybe? I really do not like the looks of the Buchi brush/comm interface. It's not so much a regular notchiness (or cogging effect, like I would expect the pole variation to feel) as a very weird irregular jumpiness. But then again, I'm no motor expert.

 

[MissJoan]

Cogging occurs when the armature poles align magnetically with the magnet poles in the motor. In a motor with a straight slotted armature, the poles will align in definitive location with relation to the magnets. In a motor with a skewed armature, these poles will be spread across the magnets causing the torque maximum to be "smoothed" All else the being the same, it is likely this has the side effect of decreasing the overall maximum torque output of the motor when compared to a similar straight slotted counterpart.

If you want to look more into the concept of skewed armatures you can just google that, there is a lot of information on it's use in overcoming reluctance torque (cogging).

 

[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

Today, 4:06 PM #221
MissJoan New Member
Cogging occurs when the armature poles align magnetically with the magnet poles in the motor. In a motor with a straight slotted armature, the poles will align in definitive location with relation to the magnets. In a motor with a skewed armature, these poles will be spread across the magnets causing the torque maximum to be "smoothed" All else the being the same, it is likely this has the side effect of decreasing the overall maximum torque output of the motor when compared to a similar straight slotted counterpart.

If you want to look more into the concept of skewed armatures you can just google that, there is a lot of information on it's use in overcoming reluctance torque (cogging).

That is good info, but how sure are you that's what it was? It didn't feel at all like the other 5 pole straight armature motor I tested (although as I said, it's a bit smaller).

That's because the Fana-Buchis™ were intimidated by your Killer Bees. After that test they sat there and peed themselves. Can I say that?

Heh, or trying to intimidate the Killer Bees. Too bad they're all bark and no bite.

 

[MissJoan]

That is good info, but how sure are you that's what it was? It didn't feel at all like the other 5 pole straight armature motor I tested (although as I said, it's a bit smaller).

Ha ha, you sound like my ex. I will then ask you, how sure are you that is not the cause?

They are your motors to test. Your pictures of the armatures on your motors show they are skewed. So I hinted at this likely being the case for smoother operation. I have seen many of these motors used in low speed applications, often coupled with an optical encoder. Did your motors have one of these attached?

There are also harmonics involved as the motor changes speed which are in part caused by the reluctance torque as the motor moves away from the poles. This is also reduced/smoothed on the skewed armature design.

If I could recommend a process to you, it would be to clean your Mabuchi motors well and break them in. Then test again. You may be having some issues with the brushes. This will all be subjective.

The skewed armature design will reduce cogging force no matter as this is a proven design methodology. Maybe you can devise a method to measure cogging force. I can think of a few that would be suitable for use in comparative testing only. Only then will you have some objective data.

While the motors are free to move about, you should consider establishing baseline measurements of their efficiencies at different heat levels. I am somewhat surprised that this has not been done yet and/or posted.

It would be a good idea to establish what impact heat has on the motor itself and not only the circuitry through which it is being driven. Motors that are inefficient can experience significant decreases due to heat, especially in areas of the motor which cannot be directly cooled such as the armature.

I hope you do not mind my insight into these processes. Experiments by laypersons in such fields are quite interesting as the processes used often vary greatly.

 

[Mayaman]

Do any of you experts want to do some contract work? I'd like to move my CSR elite buttons either to an external box or to the space left by the removal of the airbag from my Porsche GT2 wheel. It's a custom project for my GT2 cockpit. Thanks

 

[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

OK. Joan, it sems like maybe you are misunderstanding my last post. I wasn't comparing the Fana-Buchi motor to the Buhler, which is a skewed armature. I was comparing it to another 5 pole motor with a straight armature from my motor pile. The irregular notchy feeling at stall with the Fana-Buchi wasn't there in the other 5 pole straight armature motor. That motor also gained RPM smoothly while the Fana-Buchi had sort of fits and starts.

So anyways, since I felt pretty sure it had to be brush/comm related, I went ahead and did a water break-in on the Fana-Buchi. (As I said, this was a brand new motor fresh from Fanatec, so I hadn't broken it in yet). I ran it in both directions for a couple minutes up to 30VDC in reverse osmosis filtered water, then allowed it to dry out (helped it with a heat gun) and re-oiled the motor shaft at the bushings. After break-in it's running up the RPM under no load smooth as silk. At stall it is MUCH smoother, with only the slight regular cogging that I expected to feel the first time. So it looks like it was a brush issue after all.

If I could recommend a process to you, it would be to clean your Mabuchi motors well and break them in. Then test again.

Good call, I did have a feeling it was something to do with the brush contact.

While the motors are free to move about, you should consider establishing baseline measurements of their efficiencies at different heat levels. I am somewhat surprised that this has not been done yet and/or posted.

It would be a good idea to establish what impact heat has on the motor itself and not only the circuitry through which it is being driven. Motors that are inefficient can experience significant decreases due to heat, especially in areas of the motor which cannot be directly cooled such as the armature.

I hope you do not mind my insight into these processes. Experiments by laypersons in such fields are quite interesting as the processes used often vary greatly.

I would be happy to do so, if you'd like to outline a good objective way to test this. I am happy to have another contributor, feel free to add your insight wherever you'd like. I am more experienced with the mechanical processes in modding, I am just getting more into the electrical side. I have plenty of experience with electrical mods, but only following a guide with modifications to circuits, etc. so I am happy to have you and RacerXX here to give some more insight into the electrical/circuits side of things.

 

[eKretz]

Hey eK, make sure you measure your black stamped steel motor mount bracket. Don't be surprised if it is off more than expected, mine was. With some minor rework or shimming, mine can be square, even, and true to the world.

Also consider ditching the stock all-threaded motor mount to aluminum plate allen bolts. The ones for setting motor belt tension. Their threads can dig into the sides of the slots in the aluminum plate. Personally I despise lock washers so those mysteriously vanished too. Instead use bolts (or even better, studs) that are unthreaded for at least part of where they pass through the main base plate. Maybe add a slight countersink to the beginning of the threads in the motor mount brackets too. To avoid any thread pull-out if you stay with bolts. Two of mine have some thread pull-out which can affect how they lay on the flat plate. A bit sloppy as delivered, but easy to tidy up.

Yeah I already saw most of that, the first time I ever pulled my motors I noticed how out of square it was. I'm thinking of making an aluminum heatsink/motor mount actually, have a few sketches made.

 

[eKretz]

Ahh, just got done wringing this car out for a bit on GT5 at FFB 5 checking for wheel fade in a few different cars, reminds me of when I drove this one:

It seems like I get the most fade in GT5 with F1, FGT, and X2010.

I have a little helper who likes to climb up into my lap and interrupt me so my wheel gets a chance to cool down between tests:

He has made a mod suggestion here and there. Mainly he would like a sippy cup holder and snacks dispenser on the wheelrim, heh.

 

[lemansfanatic]

Cant wait to see if someone will try brushless motors someday.

 

[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

Somebody could try that someday. I saw a guy in one of the forums, ISI maybe? who is making his own FFB controller, I think he said it was capable of running a brushless, and it's going to be free/shareware. He is going to make pcb's and offer them for sale too I think. Last I saw he was running a Bodnar wheel (motor) with his prototype.

On another note, mrbasher has had a discussion with me over PM and sorted out a few issues and explained a few things and I have told him he is welcome to contribute in this thread and any contributions would be valued. So hopefully we'll get some T500 comparisons and notes as well.

 

[Cote Dazur]

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On another note, mrbasher has had a discussion with me over PM and sorted out a few issues ..snip... So hopefully we'll get some T500 comparisons and notes as well.

👍

 

[RacerXX]

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[lemansfanatic]

They may not make your teeth whiter and day happier. You lose brush wear and friction and they can run cooler. But many BL motors seem to be unhappy when run near stall (0 rpms) and of course their controllers are more complex and some software/firmware changes may be needed. The RC guys just gear down when they go brushless for instance.

Sim wheels could be geared down too but notice the trend in higher end wheels…lesser use of gear ratio to boost torque, which has subjective feel benefits. So if a Fanatec CSR is at about 36:1 and a CSR-E around 20 and a Bodnar at 1:1 (wheel shaft = motor shaft) that is kind of interesting isn't it?

You could also just use a larger BL motor to make up for any stall torque deficits. But the Physics VS Economics relationship seems to favor brushed motors in the mainstream sim wheel products. And going larger would raise BL sim wheel pricing.

There are higher end brushed motors with 15-25,000 hour life expectancies too. Part of the woes we see on many sim wheels are that they use motors with a lowish expected lifetime in the first place, per the motor makers. Most Mabuchis are rated at 20-300-2000 hours for instance.

Back to stall RPMs. Most brushed motors are not intended to be used at that RPM range. Many brushed motor makers like to see RPMs over 1000 in order to keep the commutator slots clean. We never see anything close to 1000 RPMs. And we use the smallish motors at a large percentage of their stall torque. If one rule of thumb is not to exceed maybe 15% of the stall current…well ALL consumer sim wheels blow way past that figure. Our motors are being run hard and put away wet as the saying goes. No wonder some act up! And no wonder why no mainstream wheels provide enough FFB torque (IMO) nor can any of the stronger ones run without some fade. Some fade quite significantly in use.

Well said. My understanding of small electric motors does indeed come primarily from the rc world so your statement made a lot of sense.

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[eKretz]

Getting ready to try out the new motors:

I'll let you guys know how it feels after I try it out. I'll probably do a cold wheelcheck graph for comparison just to check it out but I don't have my water cooling setup finished yet.

 

[RacerXX]

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[eKretz]

OK, here's a refresher view of the stock wheel's graph:

Here's the Buhlers @24VDC:

Buhlers @30VDC:

Buhlers @36VDC:

I haven't done a scale test yet, will get to that later today. Got the rugrat to supervise/feed/play with/teach. I haven't driven it yet either, should also be later today.

P.S. These Buhlers accelerate like a BOSS. Look at the graph how they're almost full speed immediately, and the reversal curve is MUCH sharper/quicker.

P.P.S. The graph legends are the same, primary y-axis is degrees rotation, secondary y-axis is force command and reported position. I was tired when I finished, so I forgot to title the graphs and label the axes, sorry!

 

[lemansfanatic]

Is VDC volts of direct current? If so what does the stock run at and why are you able to run the Buhlers at different Volt levels than stock?

 

[RacerXX]

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