Feminism?

[FiftyBelowZero]

Sorry if this has been done before, I did a quick search and nothing showed up.

What are your opinions on feminism? Recently, feminism has gained some controversy, to the point where some people are nicknaming them "feminazis." To jog your memory, feminism is supposed to be women being active towards rights equal to that of men.

My opinion? In recent times, feminism has evolved into simply bashing men, nitpicking at the smallest or most ridiculous things and calling them sexist (example below), accusing everything of symbolizing rape (example below) and believing women should rule; which utterly goes against the concept of equal rights.

Some examples below:

Your baby's a boy? lol sexist

An example of nitpicking at small things and calling them sexist is Kate Middleton's baby. As soon as the baby was identified as a boy, lots of feminists on Tumblr and Twitter politely said they were "disappointed" that the the baby wasn't a girl; some extreme feminists on Tumblr began posting incessant rants that the baby wasn't a girl. I mean, what? Even the gender of a newborn baby can be classified as sexism?

Rapemas

I also mentioned some feminists pick random things in media and say they symbolize "rape culture." Here's a fresh example. Stupidity here is beyond limits, bending the rules of metaphors. I thought @Peter. would like to see this one.

Men's rights
There was also an issue about Target stores in Australia refusing to sell GTA V. The reason? The way it depicts "violence against women."

If it is true that is was pulled because of the "depictions of violence against women" then that is a disgusting double standard. Why aren't these people upset about the thousands of men you murder in the game, or the man that you're forced to torture?

I do wonder is this means Rockstar will add male prostitutes in the game, don't want to discriminate after all, right?

Your thoughts?

 

[Peter.]

A label given to people who have a perfectly acceptable belief that women deserve equal laws and rights to men, that's been taken over in the western world by several radical, keyboard warrior, anti-men nutcases that have spearheaded it into a movement against a world that they believe is out to get them.

Antics can be either hilarious, such as the several ludicrous ways in which they believe they are being oppressed, and several different new types of ways in which they are apparently 'raped', to disgusting, such as causing a grown man to deliver a teary-eyed apology after making a major breakthrough in astronomy for wearing a shirt he received from a friend. The latter makes me thankful that the 'feminazis' disguised as feminists aren't really here, otherwise my blood vessels would not be in the best shape.

 

[Luminis]

I can't really say much about the world wide situation; there are countries where women are severely oppressed, still.

As for Germany, well, there was a very well-written article published in one of the biggest German newspapers (that's actually of decent quality), the Zeit. It was written by two female sociologists and underlined what's wrong with feminism in Germany. Feminism has become a big part of our society and typically female problems are regarded as serious issues that have to be resolved. The two most glaring, remaining problems are the gender pay gap and the lack of females in leading positions within large corporations. Which might or might not be entirely down to discrimination, but no matter the reason, they're being taken very seriously.

At the same time, typically male issues aren't considered important, at all. Men still die five years earlier than women, on average, and that's just attributed to biological predispositions that can't be changed. There are three times more men committing suicide than women every year - no debate to be heard about it. Men are (I think, don't remember the numbers exactly) eight times more likely to suffer from burn-out or similar mental disorders caused by high levels of stress; nobody cares. Men have a considerably higher chance to become unemployed, fall victim to violence or become criminals themselves, which is not cared about either; it is sometimes even attributed to men being savages and, thus, at fault for those things (usually by more 'popular' German feminists, such as Alice Schwarzer). You wouldn't ever hear someone go "yeah, women kinda suck at their jobs, that's why they're getting paid less", that would be utterly sexist. Seems perfectly fine to say something similar towards men, though.

So, I don't mind feminism itself, what I do mind is that typically male problems aren't being discussed in public for fear of being seen as sexist or whatever.

 

[Lizard]

A label given to people who have a perfectly acceptable belief that women deserve equal laws and rights to men, that's been taken over in the western world by several radical, keyboard warrior, anti-men nutcases that have spearheaded it into a movement against a world that they believe is out to get them.

Radical Feminism originated in the 70s and 80s so no it isn't keyboard warriors.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Radical Feminism originated in the 70s and 80s so no it isn't keyboard warriors.

Typewriters => magazines, newspapers, leaflets, newsletters.

And back in the 70's women were able to type far better than men, because it was their job

 

[Liquid]

I'd rather go for egalitarianism over anything else; all rights for all people. Equality for everybody regardless of gender, sexual orientation, race, colour, ethnicity, nationality, religion, social status, age, height, hair colour or whatever doesn't float your boat.

Ignore the bit that talks about wealth redistribution.

 

[Brend]

Radical Feminism originated in the 70s and 80s so no it isn't keyboard warriors.

If you are implying the Tumblrite radicalists these days are in any way related to groups such as the Suffragettes, I can only presume you are having a laugh. It is very much keyboard warriors who have way too much time on their hands choosing to ignore real issues in place of their own agendas which happen to carry around a lot of economical potential.


Strange that, eh?

For the most part, internet feminism 'leaders' exist to exploit money out of people, it's hard to take it seriously when they do something like selling feminist t-shirts where only 30% of the profits go toward the actual 'cause'.

 

[Com Fox]

The fact that Feminism has expanded in that some just bash Men for the most simplist thing, makes me not support them at all. Some of Feminist sound like they want Superiority, which IMO makes them worst as the Men that mistreat Women.

 

[DK]

I'm pretty sure there's a large "silent majority" of self-described feminists who don't bash men at every opportunity. It just so happens that the extremists are the most vocal.

 

[PeterJB]

I would say that recently is has been developing from 'men: boo!' feminism into 'we're all equals' feminism. There a lot of groups like this growing online.

 

[Neddo]

I listened to Can't Hold Us Down by Christina Aguilera and I noticed that even though she has point, song tells women that they should act like men instead of teaching women to tell something wrong for them.

There is real feminism which fights against stereotypes, rapes, lack of freedom and so on while fighting against oversexualisation. Just the true issues, which I as a male consider to be correct and real.

And then there is quasi feminism which considers rape as "right". The think that sex before marriage is the only way to prove that you're woman. All the bad sides of men they want to give to women and that's not good. A small joke is considered as antifeminism for them.

 

[eran0004]

To jog your memory, feminism is supposed to be women being active towards rights equal to that of men. My opinion? In recent times, feminism has evolved into simply bashing men, nitpicking at the smallest things and calling them sexist, accusing everything of symbolizing rape (I cannot explain here you'll probably die from cringing) and believing women should rule; which utterly goes against the concept of equal rights. Scarclely will you ever find an active feminist who's actually going for equal rights for men and women.

You don't need to be a woman to be a feminist.

Also, feminism isn't a single movement, it's a tree with thousands of branches. There is no central feminist agenda or organisation, there are thousands of independent ideologists, each with their own followers. The things you describe may be one radical branch of feminism, but it's certainly not representative for the entire tree. I live in a city where 10% voted for the feminist party in the EU elections last year, I have never met a single person who's been bashing men or believed that women should rule.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Antics can be either hilarious, such as the several ludicrous ways in which they believe they are being oppressed, and several different new types of ways in which they are apparently 'raped'

I would not not call that "hilarious" or "ludicrous". I would call that "terrifying" and "disturbing". According to Lena Dunham, a woman can be raped if she has consensual sex with a man, but later regrets it. I have actually seen someone at my university get accused of sexual assault under just such circumstances. It was completely devastating for him - the girl in question accused him to get back at him for something, and his life pretty much fell apart.

 

[Liquid]

According to Lena Dunham, a woman can be raped if she has consensual sex with a man, but later regrets it. I have actually seen someone at my university get accused of sexual assault under just such circumstances. It was completely devastating for him - the girl in question accused him to get back at him for something, and his life pretty much fell apart.

Things like that are disgusting. There have been stories about this in the past in Britain too. You'll have to excuse the source.

What neofeminism and/or misandry have to do with women being able to vote, earning the same salaries and opportunities as men for similar jobs and generally enjoying equal rights is beyond me.

 

[Northstar]

According to Lena Dunham, a woman can be raped if she has consensual sex with a man, but later regrets it.

There is one flaw in that argument, that being it could go both ways.

The thing that worries me most about all these new definitions of rape is that it will probably end up making it so nobody takes actual rape seriously anymore.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I'm a man who thinks that men and women are equal. I believe that men and women should have equal rights, pay, and roles in society. I also recognise that there are some differences between the sexes and these need to be accounted for, with laws such as those allowing women to take a maternity leave. This makes me a feminist.

 

[huskeR32]

At the same time, typically male issues aren't considered important, at all. Men still die five years earlier than women, on average, and that's just attributed to biological predispositions that can't be changed. There are three times more men committing suicide than women every year - no debate to be heard about it. Men are (I think, don't remember the numbers exactly) eight times more likely to suffer from burn-out or similar mental disorders caused by high levels of stress; nobody cares. Men have a considerably higher chance to become unemployed, fall victim to violence or become criminals themselves, which is not cared about either; it is sometimes even attributed to men being savages and, thus, at fault for those things (usually by more 'popular' German feminists, such as Alice Schwarzer). You wouldn't ever hear someone go "yeah, women kinda suck at their jobs, that's why they're getting paid less", that would be utterly sexist. Seems perfectly fine to say something similar towards men, though.

So, I don't mind feminism itself, what I do mind is that typically male problems aren't being discussed in public for fear of being seen as sexist or whatever.

Not that these things aren't important, or worthy of our concern - they are. But this is utterly irrelevant to a conversation about feminism. None of the issues you mention are caused by one group of people subjugating another.

As an aside, do you happen to have a source for the claim of higher unemployment? I've never seen any substantial evidence one way or the other on that.

 

[niky]

I listened to Can't Hold Us Down by Christina Aguilera and I noticed that even though she has point, song tells women that they should act like men.

No it doesn't.

It simply says that women have a right to speak their mind. If you believe that being outspoken is not a gender-appropriate behaviour, then you have never hung around with a group of girls.

-

That's the problem. If you think you know how a woman should act, should dress, should talk... that's sexist. Assigning gender appropriate behaviour and decorum as defined by you, for others.

-

Now, stating that women, in general, are not as physically strong as men, or as proficient at many types of sports, that is simply stating a fact.

This doesn't change the fact that there are women who are better than most men in many disciplines, just as there are men who are better than most men.

-

Every time I see words like "feminazism" or "social justice warrior", I cringe. Definitely, some radical voices in the movement have gone over to full-blown misandry, but responding by labelling the movement in such ways simply reflects the labeller's prejudices and biases, whether they're conscious or not.

In the end... the noisy ones? That's just noise. You can choose to engage or ignore. Guess which choice nets them less notoriety, exposure and monetary gain?

 

[Imari]

The phrase "97% on board with feminism" describes me fairly well.

If you haven't done, have a read of what happened to Scott Aaronson recently and why I think it's pretty dangerous for men to be openly feminist. And by feminist, I mean in support of equal rights for men and women, not some bizarro anti-patriarchy world where men shut up and do as they're damn well told for the misfortune of being born with a penis.

http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/

Many feminists have their 🤬 together and are great. There's a very vocal minority that seem to see this as their personal road to power and have made it their crusade to see that those with dangling organs are oppressed as they damn well should be.

🤬 that.

 

[Neddo]

No it doesn't.

It simply says that women have a right to speak their mind. If you believe that being outspoken is not a gender-appropriate behaviour, then you have never hung around with a group of girls.

Actually Lil' Kim line
"If the guy have three girls then he's the man
He can either give us some head, sex a roar
If the girl do the same, then she's a whore"
is kinda wierd yet very wise. I just don't see how it is ok to have sex with many people on both sexes lol. But this is true feminist song. I guess that these lines just speak about how people talk when they see a woman with few guys and what they make up in heads even though the woman didn't even touch guys let alone had sex with any of them. This song also doesn't oversexualise feminism. You're right about this song. It makes Christina even better singer, writer and role model.

Now for the awful feminist song which says that woman rule the world (and beat sucks)

 

[FiftyBelowZero]

I would not not call that "hilarious" or "ludicrous". I would call that "terrifying" and "disturbing". According to Lena Dunham, a woman can be raped if she has consensual sex with a man, but later regrets it. I have actually seen someone at my university get accused of sexual assault under just such circumstances. It was completely devastating for him - the girl in question accused him to get back at him for something, and his life pretty much fell apart.

No, we're talking feminists listing random things as "rape culture." That's why @Peter. used quotation marks on the word. I've seen many Tumblr feminists list Christmas as "Rapemas" as the concept of Santa Claus somehow symbolizes and promotes rape.

 

[Luminis]

Not that these things aren't important, or worthy of our concern - they are. But this is utterly irrelevant to a conversation about feminism. None of the issues you mention are caused by one group of people subjugating another.

It's not a matter if oppression, agreed. I just think it's quite interesting that one gender has a lobby for their problems and the other seemingly doesn't.

As an aside, do you happen to have a source for the claim of higher unemployment? I've never seen any substantial evidence one way or the other on that.

Still looking for the article, but I don't think it's been published online anywhere. I'll post it if I manage to find it.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I would not not call that "hilarious" or "ludicrous". I would call that "terrifying" and "disturbing". According to Lena Dunham, a woman can be raped if she has consensual sex with a man, but later regrets it. I have actually seen someone at my university get accused of sexual assault under just such circumstances. It was completely devastating for him - the girl in question accused him to get back at him for something, and his life pretty much fell apart.

Of course, Dunham is the same person who talked about exploring her sexuality with her younger sister as kids, using candy to bribe her, and compared herself to a sexual predator, only to then be outraged when people used those two specific words in articles relating to the story?

@Imari - Cheers for the link, a good read indeed.

 

[Carbonox]

Of course, it's only a small minority of feminists gone crazy. Such a small minority that the relatively new "Feminist Initiative" party in Sweden, with the most backwards goals I've ever seen from any party, almost got 4% of all votes in the most recent elections, and even got an MP for the European parliament earlier last year.

 

[Alutec]

When females have to point out that they're a feminist is kind of annoying lol.

 

[Joel]

Agree very much with @niky , using "feminist" as a pejorative and terms like SJW or Feminazi is pretty cringey and just way out of touch. Using a bunch of mostly teenagers on tumblr who are going through typical teenager things to judge feminism as a whole is a bit like using PUA forums to judge all men. You'd have to be completely delusional to believe that feminists have made life harder for men than for women. It reminds me a lot of the people who cry about "reverse racism" as if it's actually harder to be white than black in the USA/western world.

On another note, there's more nuance to the "new" definitions of rape than just a feminist power grab. For a long time unless a woman was violently grabbed kicking and screaming and held down it wasn't "real" rape. Sure it's silly that someone could retroactively take away consent from what was then a consensual one night stand, but that really doesn't appear to be something happening in a lot of cases.

The discussions around rape and consent are changing because the stranger violently grabbing a woman in a back alley or slipping a drug in a drink type of rape aren't nearly as common as other types. If you're a woman alone with a guy on a date, and he's kept asking and you've repeatedly said no, how long are you going to feel safe saying no if he keeps getting more and more agitated and he's clearly stronger than you? If you've said no 10 times, and then reluctantly say yes the 11th time because you're beginning to fear for your safety, is that something we should be accepting as consensual sex? Should we tell a woman who said no 10 times and then said yes once for fear of her safety that she can't do anything about it because she said yes once?

 

[Imari]

You'd have to be completely delusional to believe that feminists have made life harder for men than for women. It reminds me a lot of the people who cry about "reverse racism" as if it's actually harder to be white than black in the USA/western world.

Stop it.

Just because women have disadvantages in some areas, doesn't mean that men don't have valid complaints as well.

Just because it's tough for some black people, doesn't mean that some white people don't have it tough as well.

Just because black people often face racism, doesn't mean that sometimes white people don't face it too.

And just because women often face sexual discrimination or whatever, doesn't mean that sometimes men don't face it too.

It's OK to admit that. Someone else's suffering or hardship does not diminish your own.

🤬, if everyone could just admit that then maybe it could be less of a Men Vs. Women thing, and more of a "let's get some social equality going up in here" thing.

Nobody claimed that men have it harder than women on the whole, or that white people have it worse than blacks on the whole, but this sort of massive dismissal of the issues of any group that isn't the majority does no one any favours.

On another note, there's more nuance to the "new" definitions of rape than just a feminist power grab. For a long time unless a woman was violently grabbed kicking and screaming and held down it wasn't "real" rape. Sure it's silly that someone could retroactively take away consent from what was then a consensual one night stand, but that really doesn't appear to be something happening in a lot of cases.

That it can happen in any cases is pretty scary if you're a guy.

I don't want women to get raped, but neither do I want to be branded a pariah and go to prison because a women changes her mind or gets pissed off at me.

The discussions around rape and consent are changing because the stranger violently grabbing a woman in a back alley or slipping a drug in a drink type of rape aren't nearly as common as other types. If you're a woman alone with a guy on a date, and he's kept asking and you've repeatedly said no, how long are you going to feel safe saying no if he keeps getting more and more agitated and he's clearly stronger than you? If you've said no 10 times, and then reluctantly say yes the 11th time because you're beginning to fear for your safety, is that something we should be accepting as consensual sex? Should we tell a woman who said no 10 times and then said yes once for fear of her safety that she can't do anything about it because she said yes?

Straw man alert. That is not consensual sex, and is not at all what's being discussed. Saying yes when you mean no isn't consent. Being coerced or threatened into doing something is not consent. I doubt you'll find many people who disagree with this.

On the other hand, consenting and then changing your mind the next day is still consent. That there are people arguing that this is valid is a problem.

 

[Maccer_42]

The discussions around rape and consent are changing because the stranger violently grabbing a woman in a back alley or slipping a drug in a drink type of rape aren't nearly as common as other types. If you're a woman alone with a guy on a date, and he's kept asking and you've repeatedly said no, how long are you going to feel safe saying no if he keeps getting more and more agitated and he's clearly stronger than you? If you've said no 10 times, and then reluctantly say yes the 11th time because you're beginning to fear for your safety, is that something we should be accepting as consensual sex? Should we tell a woman who said no 10 times and then said yes once for fear of her safety that she can't do anything about it because she said yes?

I'd like to think no one on these forums at least would say that's consensual, because it clearly isn't, The one question I have regarding rape that I feel is unclear to me is in regards to Alcohol / Drunk sex, I hear a lot of people say "If she's drunk she can't consent". I'm not trying to argue that getting a woman black out drunk and having sex with her is okay, because it isn't, that's rape, same with going out to bars and clubs with the sole mission to pick up sloppy drunk women too drunk to know what's happening to them.

But for me I feel there is a large grey area, hypothetically you start talking to a woman at bar / club, both sober or only 1 or 2 drinks in you at the time of the initial meeting, you both start chatting more and drinking more which leads to more flirting and eventually one of you says "Hey want to come back to my place tonight?" and end up having sex. Was that rape? Or was that consensual?

I think it's common knowledge for adults that they go to bars and clubs with the hopes of meeting someone, maybe not with the intent of having sex that very night, but alcohol can speed up that process. This happens a lot. We've all had or at least heard of one night stands, and sometimes, probably often they end up being a regret.

But is it rape though or just a drunken mistake?

I think it's safe to assume that the woman in this hypothetical should know the reason the guy is talking to her is because he finds her attractive and wants to try his chance at a potential relationship / opportunity to have sex given the location of where they met, it would be pretty naive not to realise that in my opinion. Now a "tumblr feminist" might find that attitude to be sexist for a man to approach a woman with the intent of getting a relationship or sex out of it, and it is if he expects her response to be a guaranteed yes, but I don't think it is if he's just trying his chances.
And I've seen it argued in these kind of hypothetical's that because the woman was drunk regardless of if she agreed to go back to his place or invited him to hers, because she was drunk makes it impossible for her to consent. But I disagree, she's an adult she knows the setting she's in and what the most likely intentions of the guy are, and how alcohol can impair ones judgement, she might regret it the morning after but I don't think that justify's it to be rape.

But maybe I'm victim blaming or shaming, I really don't know.

 

[Luminis]

^ Isn't that getting a bit difficult now? I mean, the thing is that two clearly consenting adults are having intercourse and, all of a sudden, the male's being accused of rape. As for the alcohol, I'd say that you could say it's rape if the guy intentionally got the girl too drunk to refuse him; that's basically the same as drugging her, imho. If she's been drinking because she wanted to, how's a guy even to know how impared her decision making is going to be?

A drunk driver isn't a victim, either, why should a drunk :censored:er be?

 

[Imari]

But is it rape though or just a drunken mistake?

I think mostly not rape.

If a person has had so much to drink that they're clearly insensible, and someone takes advantage of that to have sex with them then that's rape, regardless if they would have consented if they were able.

If a person has had a couple of drinks then they're completely fine to make the decision.

However, if a person gets pretty drunk and goes home with someone that's fine. If they wake up the next morning and decide that they definitely wouldn't have done that if they were sober...too bad.

Adults choose to drink knowing what it does to them. They have a right not to be taken advantage of in that state, but they're still responsible for any decisions that they make.

If I get drunk, get in a car and run over a pack of children I'm still responsible, no matter how much I wouldn't have done it when sober.
If I get so drunk that I don't know my arse from my elbow, and someone puts me in a car and tells me it's their new GTA simulator I'm probably not, and they should be punished for taken advantage of my incapable state.

Edit: Great minds think alike @Luminis.