FF tunes don't make any sense

[CSLACR]

If you drive in rush hour traffic it is a daily occurrence. People slam on the brakes in their SUVs, turn the wheel and end up blocking traffic for hours. But the dodge ram in this game can take turns at almost the same speeds as a sports car? LOL. You can't even get NASCARs to flip over when you have a pileup at 200mph.

You were talking about cars, not trucks.

Without downforce, most of the cars in this game would flip over with racing tires.

But since you want to change to trucks and SUV's, I feel obligated.





Just because it's possible to flip something, doesn't mean you have to.
I'm not saying the Dodge Ram is terribly realistic or otherwise in GT5. You seem to feel it's very easy to flip anything on 4 wheels, and if you know what you're doing, it's actually easy not to.

 

[chuyler1]

Ok, maybe I need to clarify my previous statements a little more. I was implying that sticky race tires on a stock street vehicle would make it very easy to flip the car/truck under braking, cornering, or both at the same time. Race cars use stiffer suspensions to limit body roll with the stickier tires and they use downforce and ground effects to keep the car on the track.

The game appears to let a car roll to the point of hitting the bump stops on one side and fully extending the suspension on the other side, but it is difficult to get those wheels off the ground. Furthermore, evasive maneuvers in vehicles that have poor handling rarely result in what would be a catastrophic real world accident.

Your videos show that in the right hands, at the right speed one can control a large vehicle in a slide. However, many drivers in real life, and in this game too, don't quite have that control. Attempting to turn under hard braking (abs or not) can easily flip a vehicle. Especially if a wheel comes in contact with an uneven surface like the side of a track or rumble strip.







These aren't the best examples...but its hard to find accidents with live footage. I've driven past plenty of 1 car rollovers where the car did not come in contact with the guard rail, they simply weren't paying attention and when traffic slowed down they hit the brakes too hard then at the last minute decided to swerve out of their lane...thus resulting in a rollover. Modern technology helps reduce the whiplash affect by using ABS and stability control but it still happens.

 

[Scaff]

Like Obama say : YES WE CAN. Nordschleife km 1 turn sequence no kerbs.

PEUGEOT 206 RC '03 // 500 PP // RACING SOFT

><(((((°>°°°°°°°°°°°°°

That doesn't look like lift off oversteer at all. Why is the front wheel off the ground?

That look at lot more like stiff suspension and a bump in the track causing that, this is what lift off-oversteer causing a rear tyre to lift looks like...

...notice the clear load shift to the left front of the car, the front tyres still planted on the ground and the rear right tyre being the only one off the ground.


Scaff

 

[CSLACR]

Ok, maybe I need to clarify my previous statements a little more. I was implying that sticky race tires on a stock street vehicle would make it very easy to flip the car/truck under braking, cornering, or both at the same time. Race cars use stiffer suspensions to limit body roll with the stickier tires and they use downforce and ground effects to keep the car on the track.

The game appears to let a car roll to the point of hitting the bump stops on one side and fully extending the suspension on the other side, but it is difficult to get those wheels off the ground. Furthermore, evasive maneuvers in vehicles that have poor handling rarely result in what would be a catastrophic real world accident.

Your videos show that in the right hands, at the right speed one can control a large vehicle in a slide. However, many drivers in real life, and in this game too, don't quite have that control. Attempting to turn under hard braking (abs or not) can easily flip a vehicle. Especially if a wheel comes in contact with an uneven surface like the side of a track or rumble strip.


These aren't the best examples...but its hard to find accidents with live footage. I've driven past plenty of 1 car rollovers where the car did not come in contact with the guard rail, they simply weren't paying attention and when traffic slowed down they hit the brakes too hard then at the last minute decided to swerve out of their lane...thus resulting in a rollover. Modern technology helps reduce the whiplash affect by using ABS and stability control but it still happens.

Yeah, those are actually as bad of examples as you could get, being that every single one crashed into something before rolling over.

I did really enjoy watching the total moron in the van swerve into the filming vehicle just to stop 100 feet short of what they so desperately needed to avoid.

But anyway, like you said, it's possible to roll SUV's and trucks fairly easily, but if you going to convince me cars roll so easily like your original statement, well, you're gonna need more then videos of a few nimrods.
You can roll a car, but 99.99% of the time, it involves hitting something, or a drastically uneven surface.

Of course none of this detracts from the fact that cars don't lift off the ground easily enough in GT5, you're right, they don't.

Without downforce, most of the cars in this game would flip over with racing tires.

This is the comment I took issue with, after all.
We also still haven't addressed if down force can even help keep a car from flipping in the scenarios it usually requires to flip a car.
I simply can't see how it would help prevent it, being that it adds grip, kinda like the racing tires you mention do. One might be inclined to believe extra grip from down force would compound the issue.

 

[shirakawaa]

Have a look at this example:


Another example of roll over that can't happen in GT5:


Same, handbrake + soft suspensions induced rollover:
(this is a really good video)


etc...

Also note how in the last example the car rests on its side while In GT5, it looks as if there's an invisible hand trying hard to put rolled over cars back in their original position.

 

[CSLACR]

Interesting video.
What does that tell us?

 

[chuyler1]

Good example Shirakwa, in the wet no less. It shows the car has more grip in its outside tires than the suspension can handle. Thus allowing the car to rollover under heavy cornering speeds.

Back to my comment about DF. I guess its more about center of gravity and ground effects than downforce. Some of the Keicars in the game should flip more easily than the Dodge Ram simply because their wheelbase is far too narrow compared to their height.

 

[XDesperado67]

Just a thought here but downforce shouldn't help prevent rollovers IRL. Not an expert on the subject by any stretch of the imagination but most aerodynamic downforce is created in the same way an aircraft wing produces lift via movement of air over its surfaces. Once a car gets in a position where the air is not flowing over its surfaces in the proper direction, that aerodynamic surface is no longer capable of providing any significant downforce. Because of this loss of downforce a car might actually be more prone to a rollover if this is a sudden and extreme event as it goes from significant downforce helping the car grip the ground to a near total lack of it. Might help explain some of the rollovers you see in drag racing, but that's merely speculation on my part.

 

[CSLACR]

I hope all those videos aren't for me, I'm sure if I want I can find cars that "should" roll not rolling for all these examples as well.

I certainly agree... Wait, is anyone still reading?
I certainly agree that cars don't roll easily enough in GT5, in fact, I'm the one that brought this up by saying I think GT5 has a secret hidden stability control.

What I disagree with is this:

Without downforce, most of the cars in this game would flip over with racing tires.

It's a pretty bold generalization if you ask me, let alone (spot-on btw Desperado) the down force factor.
There's a metric ton of factors that can cause a car to flip, and racing tires certainly make it easier.

 

[chuyler1]

Apparently you didn't read my comment. I retracted and said

I guess its more about center of gravity and ground effects than downforce.

But still...under braking, with racing tires, most cars in this game would overextend their suspensions. They would have so much weight transferred forward that a single twitch of the steering wheel would cause them to flip over. After thinking about it further, I don't think downforce will prevent it....actually nothing will prevent it short of proper suspension and weight distribution.

 

[shirakawaa]

@CSLACR: In a late attempt, I was just trying to back up my original statement (from last page) that in GT5 it's much harder than real life to make cars roll over unless you put racing soft tires, the post was not directed at you in particular. This argument itself was also hypothesized by me to be one of the possible reasons why GT5 cars' suspensions don't always behave as expected, especially with tuning and with certain cars (FF drivetrains).

 

[CSLACR]

Apparently you didn't read my comment. I retracted and said

I did read, but you didn't address this:

most of the cars in this game would flip over with racing tires.

Of course it also depends on what is meant by "most".

Also, ummmm

and ground effects

What?

@CSLACR: In a late attempt, I was just trying to back up my original statement (from last page) that in GT5 it's much harder than real life to make cars roll over unless you put racing soft tires, the post was not directed at you in particular.

I would very much agree, as said previously.
Of course, even with RS, they're still too hard to roll over if I'm not mistaken.

This argument itself was also hypothesized by me to be one of the possible reasons why car's suspension don't be have as expected especially with tuning.

I don't know that they're linked, but they could be.
I think the suspension action in this game is pretty pitiful, but what can you expect, a team of 7 guys built this suspension action 20 years ago, and even now that they've grown to "huge" and with over a hundred people, they can't seem to be bothered to fix it at all, through 4 more titles, they haven't really touched it.

 

[CyKosis1973]

That doesn't look like lift off oversteer at all. Why is the front wheel off the ground?

That look at lot more like stiff suspension and a bump in the track causing that, this is what lift off-oversteer causing a rear tyre to lift looks like...

I stepped out of the conversation a long time ago. Thought I'd just drop this one in though. The below is a shot of a RKM Yukamobile. As you can see, nothing particularly stiff about the rear of the car, blatantly off the curb and looking remarkably like the picture you've posted. I didn't really have anything else to add, just wanted to say it is possible to cock a wheel ... you just have to try really hard..!!

{Cy}

 

[CSLACR]

The things is, every picture I see of this is on the Nurb, where bumps can cause that for you,(many that don't show visually) where in real life, bumps aren't needed to make it happen.
I haven't tried to do this in GT5, but from what I hear it can't be done on a flat, smooth surface.

 

[CyKosis1973]

The things is, every picture I see of this is on the Nurb, where bumps can cause that for you,(many that don't show visually) where in real life, bumps aren't needed to make it happen.
I haven't tried to do this in GT5, but from what I hear it can't be done on a flat, smooth surface.

I concur entirely. My brother and I spent ages trying to turn cars upside down. We got there eventually.

However, the first picture I posted above is at Hatzenbach, so there's plenty of left-right action on the car and in my humblest opinion, the track is reasonably flat through that section. I find most of the tracks to be utterly flat, and maybe that plays its part in cars not cocking wheels easily.

I agree with all comments regarding the difficult of getting wheels off the ground, absolutely no argument from me. However, the ever present pedant in me just wanted to point out that you can, but it's far, far harder than IRL, far harder...

{Cy}

 

[chuyler1]

reasonably flat through that section. I find most of the tracks to be utterly flat, and maybe that plays its part in cars not cocking wheels easily.

Try running the tracks in a kart. There are a lot of bumps that go unnoticed when driving the circuits in your average car. But I do agree, most tracks IRL have patchwork, cracks, and other imperfections. GT5 road surfaces seem pretty mundane, aside of course from the graffiti on the ring and improperly placed tire marks on other tracks.


I think we are beating around the bush here. We all seem to agree that it is extremely difficult to lift wheels off the track. The discussion needs to move toward whether a driving aid is causing this, and if so, whether it is messing with vehicle dynamics.

 

[CSLACR]

I don't think there's any way to really show for certain that there is a driving aid.

I'm pretty sure there's far more evidence that the suspension settings are backwards then we'll ever be able to compile for the existence of a hidden driving aid, and people still can't agree on that.
I was merely mentioning what I believe I feel while driving offline, a stability control not all that unlike SRF, but only for the rear wheels.

It also explains (for me) why when I take new cars out on track offline, I need to readjust more and more for over-steer, because it always seems like it's almost there, but next thing I know, I have drastic settings, and I'm finally satisfied with the handling.

Online, I can nearly tune without driving, depending on the car, because the small changes actually make a big difference, and the rear doesn't almost-but-not-quite slide for endless changes until absurdity is finally reached.
Ironic, I started out hating online physics and loving offline, and now it's flip-flopped.

 

[XDesperado67]

Just downloaded the newest car pack and I have to say for those who think cars don't lift up enough under hard cornering the VW 1200 should set you straight or upside down more like it. Ran a full tune one at 456PP (not fully broken in yet) in the 500PP Seasonal race at Tokyo on RS tires and had a heck of a time getting it to keep the inside wheels down. It would rather lift them up to the point of rolling over than go into a skid.

Another example of a car like this in the game is the Isuzu Piazza XE '81 a standard.

Neither car is exceptionally top heavy nor were they particularly prone to roll overs in real life. My conclusion is that PD didn't spend the same amount of time and attention to detail on the various car modelling process for all the cars they have in the game and that the interaction between the various bits of coding they use to determine how a car handles suffers in some cases to the point it is readily apparent.

 

[oopssorryy]

Has anyone tried to do this without ABS? I've always heard that ABS has hidden traction aids. I'll try to test it tonight, if I can figure out how to drive well with it off.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

There's something I want to bring to everyone's attention...

And that is Tein's Gymkhana Master coilover setups. Every single FWD set I've seen the rates for has had the rear RIDICULOUSLY soft compared to the front.

You can't explain that.

 

[chuyler1]

Has anyone tried to do this without ABS? I've always heard that ABS has hidden traction aids. I'll try to test it tonight, if I can figure out how to drive well with it off.

Yes, we discussed this a few pages back. Abs is an aid. In real life it limits oversteer by preventing lockup and distributing brake pressure. In the game, it does the same. FF vehicles with poor weight distribution show the worst entry under steer because their rear brakes are essentially disabled by ABS under hard braking. Tuners work around ABS by setting very high rear bias or introducing massive ride height changes and negative rear camber. The second you turn off ABS you will have to restart the tuning process since a good deal of the entry under steer will disappear as rear tires build more heat under braking. In FF cars, I am usually quicker with abs off, but I haven't mastered the brake modulation enough to turn it off for other drivetrains and improve my lap times.

 

[JackWilson]

After reading Scaff's guide on tuning brakes for GT4, I have found it alot easier to drive without ABS in GT5, and without setting the brake balance at very low values.

A quick read on that should help anyone understand how to tune the BB properly.

 

[oopssorryy]

Yes, we discussed this a few pages back. Abs is an aid. In real life it limits oversteer by preventing lockup and distributing brake pressure. In the game, it does the same. FF vehicles with poor weight distribution show the worst entry under steer because their rear brakes are essentially disabled by ABS under hard braking. Tuners work around ABS by setting very high rear bias or introducing massive ride height changes and negative rear camber. The second you turn off ABS you will have to restart the tuning process since a good deal of the entry under steer will disappear as rear tires build more heat under braking. In FF cars, I am usually quicker with abs off, but I haven't mastered the brake modulation enough to turn it off for other drivetrains and improve my lap times.

I havent yet figured out how to drive well with it off, so my results are odd. I still get a lot if corner exit understeer, I was hoping it would help.

 

[dr_slump]

I havent yet figured out how to drive well with it off, so my results are odd. I still get a lot if corner exit understeer, I was hoping it would help.

You don't really brake at corner exit. (?)

 

[oopssorryy]

You don't really brake at corner exit. (?)

I thought there might have been more aids hidden within ABS that helped with traction.

 

[dr_slump]

I thought there might have been more aids hidden within ABS that helped with traction.

Probably not.