FIA will they ever stop ruining the Sport with new rules?

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When will the FIA ever stop? Probably never
Why not just ask the teams to race lawnmowers instead? Its at least quite "environmental friendly" :grumpy: I just don't get it, they try to cut cost, and yet the bigger teams would just waste more money on other things (Ferrari's hub caps to be precise) so whats the point at making these rules? Why not just have each team to spend a certain amount of budget to build an F1 car? The smaller teams can have more funds developing their cars while the bigger teams have to use their resources carefully. That would be much more even.....
 
I don't think it's so bad tbh, it'll hopefully bridge the gap between the best and worst car and reducing the use of the power hungry wind tunnels is a good idea, because they do use an incredible amount of power.

Ideal? Not really, but not a bad thing imo. The FIA have done far worse this last 12 months.
 
Agreed. The rich teams will always dominate the sport regardless of where you stop them spending money. It's completely stupid in a sport that has technology as a main attraction. I don't know why the FIA doesn't save the paper its wasting printing all these regulations on and just buy 22 cars from Lola / Reynard, stuff 600bhp in them, then hand those out to the teams. That's where it's going, one way or another.

The funny thing is, though, I thought all this daft FIA interference was a relatively new thing, but I was watching a load of classic races from the '60s and '70s on TV a few weeks ago. The racing certainly was more exciting back then, particularly in the '70s when they used to overtake like they were driving Formula Fords... which, considering they were mostly Cosworth powered, I suppose is not that far from the truth.. anyway what surprised me is that even back then, in the '70s and '60s, the FIA was habitually throwing stupid rules and regulations at the teams, often in mid season. So nothing's really changed. They've spent at least 45 years trying to screw Formula 1 up, and can't even manage that competently, so there's no reason to expect anything to change in the future.
 
and just buy 22 cars from Lola / Reynard, stuff 600bhp in them, then hand those out to the teams. That's where it's going, one way or another.

That defeats the whole purpose of Formula One because F1 has always been constructors competing against each other.
 
I actually don’t have a problem with this. I think it’s a great idea. It doesn’t take anything away from the fans, it is not restricting the cars in any way, it is a huge resource and cost saving measure, and it encourages ingenuity.

It’s definitely no worse than the testing limit.
 
I also think this isn't too bad. It'll make the teams think more carefully each time they do the tunnel tests, rather than doing as many tests as they wanted which could have been unecessary. Plus, it should give the lesser teams a better chance to compete as well.
 
If a team has $400 million to spend, they'll find something to spend $400 million on. No amount of cost cutting will stop that.

Don't windtunnels use far more electricity to start up than keep running 24 7?
 
If their electricity bill really concerns them then they'll rent the things out during the day and run their tests in the dead of night. In terms of being 'green' and saving energy and stopping climate change and saving the planet and the turtles, well finding any definitive figures for windtunnels is a pain. http://www.acppubs.com/article/CA6499518.html has some info about the newly constructed Concord tunnel in America and it's 7 megawatts consumption, but that's just for the fan, I've no idea how much power a several thousand tonne rolling road consumes. Considering the speeds in Formula 1 (both wind and road movement) I can't image the power difference between overcoming initial inertia during startup and actual continuous operation would be that huge - you'd probably be looking at quite a small difference in overall power consumption. Also remember that you can't just slot a new chassis in there at 300km/h without turning off the fan.
 
I don't think it's so bad tbh, it'll hopefully bridge the gap between the best and worst car and reducing the use of the power hungry wind tunnels is a good idea, because they do use an incredible amount of power.
...I was watching a load of classic races from the '60s and '70s on TV a few weeks ago. The racing certainly was more exciting back then...

Alfaholic, funny that you mention '60s and '70s races.

As Sureshot said - it'll bring cars closer together. And for some reason, looking at '70s, '60s and even '80s result-sheets, I can't help but wonder why it was "more exciting" back then. Sure, they overtook freely - but how often could they overtake in the first place? Look at this year. At worst, a car was lapped twice. A Spyker, usually. Mostly, not even twice.

But look at '70s results - having more than six cars on the same lap at the end was quite a feat - and races where cars finished 8 (or more) laps behind were not uncommon. For some reason, I don't see those as a good thing.


Back on subject, though - I find it a good thing, the restrictions. At the same time, though, I still thing CFD shouldn't be restricted too much.
 
I was watching a load of classic races from the '60s and '70s on TV a few weeks ago. The racing certainly was more exciting back then

Based on what? Seeing the best races of two decades of racing? Of course when you watch a highlight reel of Grand Prix it looks more exciting than it is now.
 
You can easliy show a reel of "exciting" racing of the last 10 years that looks as good as the 70's / 80's.

But then you can watch 3 races of THIS YEAR of motogp and it puts the last 30yrs of F1 to shame haha.
 
I'm curious if the same people who get upset with this decision are also the same people who bitterly complain there isn't enough close racing and passing in F1.... one of the reasons for this has been the disparity between cars and the delicate balance of these complex aero packages that make it more difficult to pass due to the dirty air effecting the car set-up.

That said, I also don't want a NASCAR-esque F1 series... but I don't think the FIA does either... but it seems some people just like to blame the FIA for just about everything, even the weather... and even when they apparently are trying to give fans what they ask for, and that's more exciting close competitive races among more than just a couple of cars.

I realize it's far easier to complain than to try to come up with "reasonable" solutions, but I'm still curious though, for those that love to complain about the FIA... if you were in charge, what would you do to insure close competitive racing among a full field of F1 cars while at the same time encourage technological innovation within each team and so that each car is a unique reflection of each team's engineering efforts rather than just homologation clones?
 
I'm curious if the same people who get upset with this decision are also the same people who bitterly complain there isn't enough close racing and passing in F1.... one of the reasons for this has been the disparity between cars and the delicate balance of these complex aero packages that make it more difficult to pass due to the dirty air effecting the car set-up.

That said, I also don't want a NASCAR-esque F1 series... but I don't think the FIA does either... but it seems some people just like to blame the FIA for just about everything, even the weather... and even when they apparently are trying to give fans what they ask for, and that's more exciting close competitive races among more than just a couple of cars.

I realize it's far easier to complain than to try to come up with "reasonable" solutions, but I'm still curious though, for those that love to complain about the FIA... if you were in charge, what would you do to insure close competitive racing among a full field of F1 cars while at the same time encourage technological innovation within each team and so that each car is a unique reflection of each team's engineering efforts rather than just homologation clones?

Hmmm.... i get your point. Its still clear why the rules do always change for the better and why we do complain. But isn't it obvious that the cost to run F1 these days were more than it was some 20-30 years ago? It does make sense to cut down on wind tunnel testing and aero parts development, as well as making F1 even safer (think how many has dies during that era) Its all a good idea and all, but that doesn't change the fact that nowadays, its more likely that the cars are making the driver, not the driver making a name for themselves. Lewis Hamilton wouldn't be this famous if he wasn't driving a McLaren. Back then, team like Tyrell, Lotus, Cooper, Matra and the likes weren't the best team around, but they did have some of the drivers making a name for themselves with a car that is not entirely good.

But after reading Wikipedia, i just wondered why does the FIA doesn't allow technological advanced parts be developed like they were back then. Like the Tyrrell P34, or the BT46B ‘Fan car' as well as the Lotus cars (forgot which one) But they did bring some innovations to F1, why can the FIA let the other teams do that now?
 
But after reading Wikipedia, i just wondered why does the FIA doesn't allow technological advanced parts be developed like they were back then. Like the Tyrrell P34, or the BT46B ‘Fan car' as well as the Lotus cars (forgot which one) But they did bring some innovations to F1, why can the FIA let the other teams do that now?

Lotus 88?

Apart from the Tyrrell P34, the above two, the Brabham and the Lotus, were banned as soon as they showed up.

The Tyrrell was allowed to live simply because it wasn't such a great idea. While it reduced aerodynamic drag at the front, the car still had that same drag over the rear wheels. At the same time, the second set of suspensions and brakes meant extra unsprung weight. Those together made the car less-than-optimal, easily beaten by the Lotus 79.
Look at it this way - if it was such a good idea, why didn't other manufacturers go into it? (With the exception of March's attempt, which was also a failure)
 
Williams did and the six wheel machine was able to beat the usual FW07 (or was it FW08, whatever) quite easily. Their system had four small driving wheels at the rear though.
 
Lotus 88?

Apart from the Tyrrell P34, the above two, the Brabham and the Lotus, were banned as soon as they showed up.

The Tyrrell was allowed to live simply because it wasn't such a great idea. While it reduced aerodynamic drag at the front, the car still had that same drag over the rear wheels. At the same time, the second set of suspensions and brakes meant extra unsprung weight. Those together made the car less-than-optimal, easily beaten by the Lotus 79.
Look at it this way - if it was such a good idea, why didn't other manufacturers go into it? (With the exception of March's attempt, which was also a failure)

You can always link him to Wikipedia Metar;)
 
Lotus 88?

Apart from the Tyrrell P34, the above two, the Brabham and the Lotus, were banned as soon as they showed up.

The Tyrrell was allowed to live simply because it wasn't such a great idea. While it reduced aerodynamic drag at the front, the car still had that same drag over the rear wheels. At the same time, the second set of suspensions and brakes meant extra unsprung weight. Those together made the car less-than-optimal, easily beaten by the Lotus 79.
Look at it this way - if it was such a good idea, why didn't other manufacturers go into it? (With the exception of March's attempt, which was also a failure)

Though, interestingly, the drag got to a point where an extra 15hp was being gained over rivals. However, it is clear that the benefits are greatly outweighed by the downsides, and the special cornering sequence (the corner was divided into small sections to negotiate) cost driver Ronnie Peterson an otherwise solid season (for instance, his crash with Gilles Villeneuve in the 1977 Japanese GP, where the Canadian, unfamiliar with the sequence, tried to overtake the Swede).

Lotus had its own innovations which were perhaps more effective sooner, and Lotus was an established pioneer in innovation for F1, as opposed to Tyrrell.
 
Williams did and the six wheel machine was able to beat the usual FW07 (or was it FW08, whatever) quite easily. Their system had four small driving wheels at the rear though.

Not as far as I remember. Both March, Williams and Ferrari decided that the system had no actual advantage over the conventional four-wheeled counterparts. From what I remember, the March was raced unsuccessfully, while the Williams was shelved because it just wasn't faster. The Ferrari wasn't raced because Lauda crashed.
 
The difference of then versus now was that then they were essentially inventing things to make the cars (theoretically) faster. Now they are essentially just throwing money at the already established ideas to have increases over the teams that don't have the money to throw at the same ideas. Seriously, the only radical new idea that I can immediately think of is the Williams FW26, and its total failure makes me think that this rule change is necessary to prevent teams from just continuing to throw money at the same thing. It may actually inspire innovation.
 
And the MP-4/22's nosebridge doesn't count? As do, of course, the MP-4/20's viking-horns, the winglets Renault brought, Ferrari's wheel-covers?
 
Not as far as I remember. Both March, Williams and Ferrari decided that the system had no actual advantage over the conventional four-wheeled counterparts.
I still disagree. http://www.forix.com/8w/sixwheelers.html says:

"the Williams team then pressed on with its six-wheeler project and during the summer of 1982 a new car surfaced. This time an adapted FW08-01, codenamed FW08D, hit the Donington Park track. Its four-wheel driven times were stunning. In fact, they were so good that the FIA issued their 1983 regulations including a clause that outlawed six-wheelers and four-wheel drive."

Sounds like fast to me. :D
 
And the MP-4/22's nosebridge doesn't count? As do, of course, the MP-4/20's viking-horns, the winglets Renault brought, Ferrari's wheel-covers?
You have to realize, of course, that I said "that I can immediately think of."
 
I hate the way the FIA keep throwing rules in, you talk about no new innovation! this is because of the stupid rules eg
a few yrs ago michelin designed a tyre that became wider during a race and then returned to its orginal size after the race, needless to say the FIA banned it.
Again last year renault designed an ingenius system in the front of the cars that helped stability through corners, it was some sort of swinging weight balance, this was ofcourse banned by the dam FIA.

There are many other examples that i will think of and post again.

As for the wind tunnnels, maybe but this is extreme, the teams could be aloud to use them as much as they want if they powered them with there own renewable energy, eg private wind powered turbines!
 
Competition always has and always will breed innovation, and will do so regardless of economic cost. The notion that teams were inventing back then and aren't anymore is wrong, teams these days have to work within an immensely stringent framework of rules governing what they can and can't implement. In the most simplistic terms I can imagine it in, it's the difference between giving one kid 200 Lego blocks and another kid 20 and then being surprised that the kid with 20 didn't make something as revolutionary as the kid with 200.

For all those arguing in defense of the FIA and their attempts to 'give us what we want' I say yes, the FIA has made considerable improvements in the last two years - after considerable failures in the prior 4, which I'm not sure if they've yet atoned for. That said, where was our AMD sponsored FIA F1 survey this year? Sure, AMD don't have much in the way of money left, but you're telling me the FIA couldn't find another sponsor if that was the problem? The real problem was a spy saga that engulfed the middle of the year when the survey normally runs and would have tainted responses.

If the FIA was actually serious about increasing overtaking they should revert to car designs similar to 1990, with the addition of ground effects - no winglets, wider cars, smoother surfaces on those cars which means more space for sponsors, so everyone wins. I fail to understand how there can be moaning about the lack of overtaking and 'field spread' year on year without people calling for designs that generate downforce from an area far less susceptible to turbulence/interference.

Oh, and Small Fryz wins - MotoGP puts F1 to shame these days and it's quite saddening, the number of races that end with 5-6 passes for the lead on the final lap alone is just amazing. Massa v Kubica in Fuji is the only moment all season to come close that I can think of.
 
If the FIA was actually serious about increasing overtaking they should revert to car designs similar to 1990, with the addition of ground effects - no winglets, wider cars, smoother surfaces on those cars which means more space for sponsors, so everyone wins. I fail to understand how there can be moaning about the lack of overtaking and 'field spread' year on year without people calling for designs that generate downforce from an area far less susceptible to turbulence/interference.

Problem is, as soon as those innovations were found in the first place - winglets, and the like - then you can't actually ban them properly, without resorting to spec cars.

Look at the engines. They're basically identical now, with the power-difference between best and worst estimated at around 30-40HP. Kinda puts the 1500HP Vs. 650HP Turbos of the '80s to shame?

Field-spread is, I believe, no longer an issue. It has come to the degree of closeness where even crappy drivers, like Christijan Albers, in crappiest cars, like the Spyker, are only lapped once or twice. That's as close as it gets, considering the results from previous decades.

At the same time, you can't just tell F1 to "forget" what was developed and honed for the past few years. Ultra-advanced winglets and flow-conditioners are all over the cars, but those are easy to ban. But how do you "force" a team to smooth out the surfaces, when they have found, through research, that curvatures are more efficient? You could just as well tell them to return to the '60s days of four-wheeled cigars. You can restrict, but that has to be done with care if you don't want NASCAR.

You can restrict the size of wings, the number of planes, the number of objects - but, life has shown us - whenever you restrict grip, someone claws it back in an even more instable way: The FIA banned slicks? Laptimes were just as fast just shortly afterwards. Overtaking was rarer. No traction-control? No ground-effects? Whatever happens, whenever a simple, foolproof idea that's overtaking-friendly is banned, the next solution is less overtaking-friendly.

Roo
If a team has $400 million to spend, they'll find something to spend $400 million on. No amount of cost cutting will stop that.

^ I still think this is the best response in the thread. No windtunnel? No engine-developement? "No tyre-developement? Fine, we'll develop [INSERT PART HERE] instead." The significance of said part will be less important though, considering the three most important aspects are now restricted.
 
I still think this is the best response in the thread. No windtunnel? No engine-developement? "No tyre-developement? Fine, we'll develop [INSERT PART HERE] instead." The significance of said part will be less important though, considering the three most important aspects are now restricted.

You realise the FIA is doing this on purpose, right?

What is the next big innovation that regulations will actually permit in 2009 and will slash lap times?

KERS!

The FIA is trying the channel spending into that area. They are basically forcing manufacturers to spend tens of millions on R&D for these systems so in a few years weÂ’ll actually have an efficient method of turning wasted energy into usable energy that might actually be usable on road cars.
 
That said, where was our AMD sponsored FIA F1 survey this year? Sure, AMD don't have much in the way of money left, but you're telling me the FIA couldn't find another sponsor if that was the problem? The real problem was a spy saga that engulfed the middle of the year when the survey normally runs and would have tainted responses.

I distinctly remember answering one this year as I did last year.
 

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