Fight for $15. (Fast food protest)

[Exorcet]

There once was a market trend that said that a horseless carriage would never catch on. They built one anyway.

Yes, the example I use is the jet engine which was considered novelty compared to piston engines in aviation. However, these things don't necessary prove that the future is hard to predict, but that humans are bad at making predictions. Or maybe they're just short sighted. The original jets were novelties, but the later generations would not be.

Market trends and what people say about an idea before trying it are untrustworthy indicators of what can be teh next big thing. That is why they focus group products first.

One example is clothing trends. No trendsetting fashion designer (that would be one that creates the first of a new trendy fashion) looks for a trend on Facebook of people saying, "I wish they made shoes that look like X. They'd look so cute on me." Nope, multiple fashion shows happen every year. A handful create the style everyone will wear next year, and those people won't know they want it until they see it.

The Facebook bot example was simply in regards to data collection. Trendsetting requires personalty or insight into group preferences and behavior, which is why I mentioned the personification of an AI entity. It would be an attempt to mimic as closely as possible the behavior of trend setting people.

Same with food. Taco Bell breakfast sounded insane. To this day I know people that don't know White Castle makes breakfast and have a weird reaction when they find out. But both do well enough to make a profit. What machine would create Hot Dog pizza crust? I personally wonder what sane person would, but it happened.

It all comes down to thinking the human brain is a biological machine or not. If it's not, and it just works, you can't model it or model something after it. If it is a machine, you can probably emulate it on different hardware. I couldn't tell you the timelines for such things, but I don't see why it's not possible.

Hundreds of new ideas come out of each industry every year. They get focus group tested and maybe three to five make it to market, and then maybe only one will actually be a success. Too much human element is involved on determining success to automate the process.

Human element to me is just biochemistry that we don't yet understand.

That isn't to say that an emotion-chipped, bio-interfaced AI could do it. But can that be called automated anymore than having humans do it?

Maybe the better term then is non-human-directed.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Different numbers but the principle is the same and some of the fallout is likely the same as well:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/0...-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hplnws

The Times article said Price’s decision ended up costing him a few customers and two of his “most valued” employees, who quit after newer employees ended up with bigger salary hikes than older ones. “He gave raises to people who have the least skills and are the least equipped to do the job, and the ones who were taking on the most didn’t get much of a bump,” Gravity financial manager Maisey McMaster, 26, told the paper. She said when she talked to Price about it, he treated her as if she was being selfish and only thinking about herself. “That really hurt me,” she said. “I was talking about not only me, but about everyone in my position.” Approaching burnout, she quit.

Grant Moran, 29, also quit, saying the new pay-scale was disconcerting. “Now the people who were just clocking in and out were making the same as me,” he told the paper. “It shackles high performers to less motivated team members.” Price said McMaster and Moran, or even critic Rush Limbaugh, the talk show host, were not wrong. “There’s no perfect way to do this and no way to handle complex workplace issues that doesn’t have any downsides or trade-offs,” he said.

 

[McLaren]

Different numbers but the principle is the same and some of the fallout is likely the same as well:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/0...-rents-house-to-make-ends-meet/?intcmp=hplnws

I hadn't even thought of the scenario of a higher paid employee just getting a few dollars more to meet the new wage whilst the new guy gets a much larger raise. I'm curious if this happens enough to see those "veteran" employees demanding even more because they'd been there longer & as she said, "take on the most".

 

[FoolKiller]

I hadn't even thought of the scenario of a higher paid employee just getting a few dollars more to meet the new wage whilst the new guy gets a much larger raise. I'm curious if this happens enough to see those "veteran" employees demanding even more because they'd been there longer & as she said, "take on the most".

How many jobs are there between a $7.25 minimum and $15? A lot. And in some places the difference is a college degree or years of working your way up in the company from that minimum wage job.

 

[Swift]

I hadn't even thought of the scenario of a higher paid employee just getting a few dollars more to meet the new wage whilst the new guy gets a much larger raise. I'm curious if this happens enough to see those "veteran" employees demanding even more because they'd been there longer & as she said, "take on the most".

This has happened at that credit card processing company in Seattle. He raised everyone to 70K a year. Some of his top people split sitting that why should they bust their butt when the new guy gets the same amount.

My main issue with a high minimum wage, besides shutting out young people. Is that it stifles the desire for self enrichment. Why should one go to college or a trade school if they can get 31K for just showing up to any/all jobs?

 

[Blitz24]

How many jobs are there between a $7.25 minimum and $15? A lot. And in some places the difference is a college degree or years of working your way up in the company from that minimum wage job.

Wouldn't the raise to the minimum wage also effectively eliminate the need to going for higher education if a simple burger flipper could make more money off the bat than a college graduate with a useful degree?

 

[Swift]

Wouldn't the raise to the minimum wage also effectively eliminate the need to going for higher education if a simple burger flipper could make more money off the bat than a college graduate with a useful degree?

Hey! I just said that!

 

[FoolKiller]

Wouldn't the raise to the minimum wage also effectively eliminate the need to going for higher education if a simple burger flipper could make more money off the bat than a college graduate with a useful degree?

That depends. If the raise is within one business or industry, then yes.

If that raise is legislated nationwide, then no, because it will only be a matter of time before the market adjusts and $15/hr is worth as much as today's minimum, so you still need the degree to get ahead. The unfortunate reality is that poverty and being poor is a comparison statement, not a set-in-stone dollar amount. Making minimum still puts you at the bottom of the economy.

 

[phillgt2002]

..............

I'm curious. Why did this person get banned?

 

[DK]

I'm curious. Why did this person get banned?

From what I heard, he responded to a post celebrating Eid ul-Fitr in the Islam thread with something along the lines of a Muslim getting lynched.

 

[Grayfox]

I'm curious. Why did this person get banned?

Doesnt matter why he got banned?

It is none of our business.

If you want an answer, The user broke an AUP rule

The only ones it matters do are the banned user and the staff.

 

[Tornado]

Plus it was kind of obvious that it was going to happen eventually anyway, so what does the specific reason matter?

 

[niky]

From what I heard, he responded to a post celebrating Eid ul-Fitr in the Islam thread with something along the lines of a Muslim getting lynched.

Lynched to smithereens.

Whether the staff agrees with you or not, all opinions can be expressed on GTP. And even when the poster in question claimed persecution from the "Politically Correct" brigade, no disciplinary action was given for his opinions. This did not, however, stop people from disagreeing with him.

But when your only purpose in posting is to incite outrage and to troll other members because you cannot post a coherent argument, or to suggest that the only good Muslim is a dead one, then there's no reason, really, to be on this board.

-

Nothing else to discuss, really. Any further questions about said person should go in the Support Forum.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/minimum-wage-push-could-bring-robots-to-restaurants/ar-BBlNiTA

 

[Liquid]

The original jets were novelties, but the later generations would not be.

Just as an aside, the steam engine was certainly a novelty which was ignored and was seen as having no practical use; the first steam engine was invented by an Alexandrian Greek named Heron in the 1st century AD. It was a novelty trinket which rotated a small ball. Nobody really saw its potential until James Watt coupled it with the idea of operating machinery and perfected a continuous rotary motion 1700 years later.

Human predictions of the future are usually off because we cannot forsee the advent, or use, of a new technology until it actually arrives. Things like Zeerust show how good we are at predicting future life.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Wouldn't the raise to the minimum wage also effectively eliminate the need to going for higher education if a simple burger flipper could make more money off the bat than a college graduate with a useful degree?

How can you make more money off the bat than a burger flipper when a minimum wage is in force? The same maybe, not less.

 

[Blitz24]

How can you make more money off the bat than a burger flipper when a minimum wage is in force? The same maybe, not less.

Unless it's a full wage increase to all fields (which does nothing to help the economy), the gap between higher education and no education shrinks significantly.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Unless it's a full wage increase to all fields (which does nothing to help the economy), the gap between higher education and no education shrinks significantly.

The gap may or may not shrink but that doesn't mean a college graduate will make less money than someone flipping burgers. The point of a college degree is long term gain for short term pain so being closer in wages to a burger flipper for a year or two should never outweigh the long term prospects afforded by a marketable college degree.

 

[Swagger897]

marketable

This, is why you go to college. You pick up a trade and you work for what you studied. In the workers mind, you are changing jobs, but in the employers view, you are an asset in transition.

Flipping burgers isn't much of a marketable trade, while being an accountant, pilot, or dentist is. If one were to get into the debate of fry cook V. chef, that's different if one attends culinary schools.

 

[Azuremen]

This, is why you go to college.

And thus we have an entire generation of kids with business degrees that can't find jobs because they didn't develop a usable skill set.

Going to college isn't the answer - developing skills and knowledge is.

As for your fry cook vs. chef, I find that a pretty crap way to view it given the number of highly talented creatives that have next to no formal training...

 

[Swagger897]

And thus we have an entire generation of kids with business degrees that can't find jobs because they didn't develop a usable skill set.

Yes, if you view it like that. A lot of people I know are taking pointless degrees, but it really depends on what they plan to do with them. Not all are business majors, but some do have a general direction of what they actually want to do with it (the most of them actually want to start their own).

But yeah, it's similar to someone who goes to an aviation dedicated school in the time of a recession or what not, when absolutely no airline is going to hire any pilot... There's no fallback to airport management really. That's why a lot of people like me are taking accounting, engineering (which IMO is too saturated right now to do that), meteorology, physics, etc... to get to the pilot career, so we can have a fallback.

As for your fry cook vs. chef, I find that a pretty crap way to view it given the number of highly talented creatives that have next to no formal training...

I was thinking of more like Casino Chefs in Las Vegas, or major hotel chain chefs... not someone who wen to LCB and works at a metro-Atlanta pub...

 

[niky]

A lot of master chefs (that I know of) start from the bottom... and only got their chance at further education after proving they had the aptitude and ability to go further.

I think the distinction between fry cook and chef is more along the lines of professional athletes.

Lots of schlubs who are just talented enough to get by. And then you have the few who have the skill to do it professionally.

 

[Swift]

And thus we have an entire generation of kids with business degrees that can't find jobs because they didn't develop a usable skill set.

Going to college isn't the answer - developing skills and knowledge is.

That's true. So it goes to the broader question, why is college for everyone pushed so hard for the last thirty years or so? There are many vocations and industries that pay well with certifications or licenses. But the country has all the young people so focused on degrees so Noe they are all watered down. Kinda like inflation. Since so many people have degrees, coupled with the aging generation retiring later, it leaves many college graduates out if the industry they studied for. That's not even taking into account the H1 visa program that subplants us citizens for legal aliens.

 

[MatskiMonk]

For me, any prospective employee is a mix of attitude, experience and knowledge, the 'more' of each these they have, the greater their ability (and therefore worth) will be. A qualification is a good indicator that they will have knowledge, but on it's own it doesn't guarantee anything. The mix of these characteristics required for any job will vary - but for my money attitude is the key (think of it like A(E+K)!) and unfortunately the general attitude of those in minimum wage jobs is often poor. It can be difficult to know if they are in the position because of their attitude, or vice versa, but often it can be the small things that matter.

 

[niky]

That's true. So it goes to the broader question, why is college for everyone pushed so hard for the last thirty years or so? There are many vocations and industries that pay well with certifications or licenses. But the country has all the young people so focused on degrees so Noe they are all watered down. Kinda like inflation. Since so many people have degrees, coupled with the aging generation retiring later, it leaves many college graduates out if the industry they studied for. That's not even taking into account the H1 visa program that subplants us citizens for legal aliens.

Everyone wants to get the most possible income out of their education. Not everyone can be a Donald Trump or a Michael Jordan, but everyone wants the chance to be one.

-

And then there's the further problem of the reactivity of education to jobs. When you have high demand in one industry, it takes educational institutions about three to five years to catch up to the demand. At which point, you will either have enough graduates or... given that there are so many schools in so many countries giving the same courses... way too many.

We've observed a six or seven year boom-bust cycle for many high demand occupations (requiring College degrees) in the US.

Uh... high demand because not a lot of Americans are willing to go to the expense of studying for those occupations... something touched upon in the "Multiculturalism" thread, or one of those endless debates... as it's a similar problem to the UK. Not enough doctors or health workers... because not enough Americans/Brits taking up the courses due to the difficulty and expense.

Funny that so many people are not only focused on degrees... they're focused on the wrong degrees if what they really want is money...

 

[Joel]

As for your fry cook vs. chef, I find that a pretty crap way to view it given the number of highly talented creatives that have next to no formal training...

And chefs for that matter. Culinary school is a great thing to do if you want to be a chef, but it isn't necessary and it's very common that chefs have no formal training or schooling.

 

[FoolKiller]

Everyone wants to get the most possible income out of their education. Not everyone can be a Donald Trump or a Michael Jordan, but everyone wants the chance to be one.

I don't think you quite understand his question.

He isn't asking why so many people think they need a college degree. He is asking why politicians and society in general are making it sound as if the only acceptable option is to get a degree. They promote more and more federal aid to help kids go to school and tell kids that their idea of working on cars is a bad idea and that they need to have a college degree to even make a decent wage. I remember seeing one of my teachers ask a fairly smart guy who really just wanted to be a mechanic if he really wanted to be successful and have a good income. The same thing was done for many of the farm-raised kids. About 90% of my graduating class went to college. More than half got a 2-year associates degree then figured out what they really wanted to do and found a trade school to learn those skills.

When I was in college I got to know the guy that ran the cafeteria. He had a four-year philosophy degree. I asked him what kind of jobs you got with a degree like that and he said, "managing a college cafeteria."

My best friend has a history degree and has yet to have anything to do with history since he graduated.


The simple fact is that we create societal pressures of the expectations of what you should achieve to be "successful" in life and many people follow that path, only to not find success or even what they want to do with their lives. For those people all we have done was talk them into a debt that they will have trouble paying.


We do a similar thing with home ownership. As far back as Reagan there has been talk in campaigns about having every family in a house. People need a house. Home ownership is a great thing. We should adjust policy in ways to allow as many people as possible to live in a home, no matter their ability to afford it. And people wonder how the housing bubble happened or why the policies that led to it were done. Because someone decided that renting was a bad thing.



The question @Swift is asking is: Why are we telling kids that have no desire to be in college, have no future plans that require college, or completely lack the ambition to follow up on a career after college (if they even managae to get a degree before dropping out) that they should be in college or they are just another loser?

 

[niky]

The question @Swift is asking is: Why are we telling kids that have no desire to be in college, have no future plans that require college, or completely lack the ambition to follow up on a career after college (if they even manage to get a degree before dropping out) that they should be in college or they are just another loser?

The same reason. Because parents and politicians want these kids to be "winners"... focusing on putting people in the position to make more money, without considering the fact that there are too many people going through those tracks, already.

It's something that's filtered down through the educational levels... probably not where you are (remembering your complaints about Common Core), but out here in Asia, where schools give entrance exams for First Grade, and the pressure for high grades pushes students to suicide.

Not a very well rounded way of creating an employable society.





*Uh... as to letting kids take up liberal arts courses for which employment outside of teaching is effectively nil... no comment.

 

[Swift]

The same reason. Because parents and politicians want these kids to be "winners"... focusing on putting people in the position to make more money, without considering the fact that there are too many people going through those tracks, already.

It's something that's filtered down through the educational levels... probably not where you are (remembering your complaints about Common Core), but out here in Asia, where schools give entrance exams for First Grade, and the pressure for high grades pushes students to suicide.

Not a very well rounded way of creating an employable society.

*Uh... as to letting kids take up liberal arts courses for which employment outside of teaching is effectively nil... no comment.

Uh, wait.

I understand that things are different in the Philippines then in the USA. But our economy is very diverse. While I truly wish our parents and system would push for better academic performance from out children, it doesn't mean that college is the only avenue to becoming a successful adult. Carpentry, plumbing, HVAC, electrician, Locksmith, AES mechanic, computer networking technician, etc. They all make upwards of $35K - $75K a year. That's a very good living, unless you're in Manhattan

So, college isn't the end all be all.

 

[Imari]

Uh, wait.

I understand that things are different in the Philippines then in the USA. But our economy is very diverse. While I truly wish our parents and system would push for better academic performance from out children, it doesn't mean that college is the only avenue to becoming a successful adult. Carpentry, plumbing, HVAC, electrician, Locksmith, AES mechanic, computer networking technician, etc. They all make upwards of $35K - $75K a year. That's a very good living, unless you're in Manhattan

So, college isn't the end all be all.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the average tradesman earns more in Australia than the average university graduate, once they're out of their apprenticeship and they're not legalised slaves any more.

Knowing what I know now, if I purely wanted to make the most amount of money I could I wouldn't have gone to university. You're mostly better off in a trade with 3-4 years experience than starting with a degree and several tens of thousands of dollars of debt.