Fight for $15. (Fast food protest)

[NLxAROSA]

People should get raises by the amount of years and input. Then people who are stuck there, like moms or what ever the reason, can still get a somewhat normal salary to keep a head above the water. I too think work like this is for the young people, but it happens more and more older people get stuck there.

Which is the exact reason why older people are expensive here. And with pension age rising (67 in NL now), this means anyone over 50 is pretty much unemployable. A very bad situation IMO. Wage should never be related to years of work, age, or input. Output: yes. 👍

Our minimum for an adult (adult in age = 23 +) is 12,39 dollars (9,58 euros). That times 40 (one work week) is 495,6 dollars. Then let's pretend a month is 4,5 weeks so that's 2230,2 dollars only tax should come over that (on my salary it's 42% ()) so you would get minus 936,684 (=42%), ending up with only 1293,516 dollars.

At minimum wage, you pay way less than 42% of income tax. If you look up the minimum monthly wage in NL (rijksoverheid.nl), it's EUR 1495,20 per month for a 23 year old (less if you're younger). After taxes (which are not a lot at minimum wage) you remain with EUR 1303,70 (see loonwijzer.nl), which is around USD 1678,-

 

[Carlos]

Which is the exact reason why older people are expensive here. And with pension age rising (67 in NL now), this means anyone over 50 is pretty much unemployable. A very bad situation IMO. Wage should never be related to years of work, age, or input. Output: yes. 👍

At minimum wage, you pay way less than 42% of income tax. If you look up the minimum monthly wage in NL (rijksoverheid.nl), it's EUR 1495,20 per month for a 23 year old (less if you're younger). After taxes (which are not a lot at minimum wage) you remain with EUR 1303,70 (see loonwijzer.nl), which is around USD 1678,-

You're right, that is a problem. Now I think about it again, I still do think it would be better to get a raise every year for working at the same job for say the first 5 to 10 years. I think that's pretty fair. That's the situation where I work and yes there are some people that really don't deserve their raise, but they don't get a raise forever. The normal working people shouldn't be punished with not getting anything more just because they can't get a better function. In many companies it's hard to get a better function, like at McDonald's they only need a few managers in comparison with burger flippers. It doesn't have to be much but over the years it should be enough to go rent a house ánd go on vacation.

Oh yeah I messed that calculation up quite bad Thanks for doing the research 👍

And reminded me I have still 44 working years to go

 

[Xilor]

Asking for your wages to be doubled is a great way to discredit your cause. If they were demanding something a bit more reasonable, like $10/hr, I'm sure they would garner a lot of support. But as it is the majority of the population will just have a laugh and get on with their day.

 

[Danoff]

Some of the employees are single moms who can't do anything because they haven't been able to go to college.

Raising minimum wage makes it harder for them to find a job. The idea is to find a job, get some work experience, and find a better job. You can't do that if you can't get the first one because it costs more than you can earn.

 

[Crash]

Some of the employees are single moms who can't do anything because they haven't been able to go to college. They can't quit the job and go to college because then they can't pay rent.

It certainly isn't easy, but it's also not that rare for people to work full time jobs and go to evening school/night classes at a local college. Working full time and going to school aren't mutually exclusive.

Let's skip the trouble; make the minimum wage $10 and an increase of 7% every year.

That is absolutely untenable. Historically, prices double roughly every 20 years or so due to inflation. A 7% increase each year means that the minimum wage would roughly double in 10 years.

 

[Imari]

It certainly isn't easy, but it's also not that rare for people to work full time jobs and go to evening school/night classes at a local college. Working full time and going to school aren't mutually exclusive.

There's also learning on the job. Most employers will fall over themselves to get at someone with a professed interest in educating themselves and becoming better at their job. I teach some of our factory hands a little chemistry and mechanical maintenance on the side, and our financial officer is tutoring one guy in accounting. It's extra value for the workers in that they get to gain these skills for free, and it's extra value for us in that we get skilled workers at a lower wage than if we had to bring them in off the street, and if we have vacancies we can sometimes fill upwards from within.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I'm reasonably sure that humans could be eliminated nearly entirely from the process of making and serving your average McDonalds meal. Quality and consistency would probably increase, and serving times would decrease, that is something that Joe Consumer might actually pay a couple of cents extra for. Paying burger flippers more money for doing the same job, not so much.

 

[Danoff]

There's also learning on the job. Most employers will fall over themselves to get at someone with a professed interest in educating themselves and becoming better at their job. I teach some of our factory hands a little chemistry and mechanical maintenance on the side, and our financial officer is tutoring one guy in accounting. It's extra value for the workers in that they get to gain these skills for free, and it's extra value for us in that we get skilled workers at a lower wage than if we had to bring them in off the street, and if we have vacancies we can sometimes fill upwards from within.

You can only understand this if you understand economics.

People have to earn their pay. Nobody is going to hire you to make less money for them than you cost. They'll just choose not to. You can't force them to because they'll run out of money. If your employees cost more than they earn, you shut down the company. So when you learn on the job, you increase your earnings potential, which means you're more valuable to the company. They'll be happy to pay you more as you earn more money.

Likewise, you cannot raise minimum wage above what employees can earn or they'll all get fired. To an extent, you can increase their earnings potential by preventing anyone from competing at a lower price, but that is not indefinitely extendable for a multitude of reasons. The ultimate reason is that people don't have to buy your products.

 

[KSaiyu]

Short answer: no.

Long answer...

 

[JMoney]

If you want better wages, find a different job. These protestors don't seem to know how business works, and that higher wages will equal fewer employees. People seem to think that harder work should mean more pay, but that's not how it works. Higher skill means more pay. And fast food jobs do not require much skill.

 

[Jubby]

What's the most expensive cost in running most service businesses...? Oh, yes! Labor. It won't hurt at all to double it.

There's a reason the people are complaining about this, most of them don't understand economics and how to run a business... they aren't in a position that they need use this information, so it seems so simple to just do it. "What harm can it do?"

 

[Zenith]

What's the most expensive cost in running most service businesses...? Oh, yes! Labor. It won't hurt at all to double it.

There's a reason the people are complaining about this, most of them don't understand economics and how to run a business... they aren't in a position that they need use this information, so it seems so simple to just do it. "What harm can it do?"

Just make the minimum wage $1,000,000/year! Everyone will be wealthy!

 

[FoolKiller]

People should get raises by the amount of years and input.

And screw the guy who has been there less time but is ten times more productive.

Here's another question: You raise minimum wage to $15 an hour. What do you do for the employee already making $15 an hour after years of earning pay raises?

But ultimately, let's look at what happens if you raise minimum wage to $15 an hour. The job ad for the position goes from "no experience necessary" to "minimum four years experience" or something along those lines. They don't want to spend two weeks paying a guy $15 an hour to be trained when they can instead hire an experienced employee who requires almost no training.

If you worry about the single mom with no experience or schooling then don't raise the minimum wage so high that the guy with some schooling and experience will always be the preferred option.


And what is wrong with no minimum wage, where two guys are applying for a job that pays $7? As he turns in his application the second guy says, "I'll do it for $6." Second guy gets the job at $6 an hour. Better yet, what's wrong with a guy going to his boss and saying, "My performance numbers show that I am 50% more productive than anyone else on this staff. I feel I deserve a raise." If he gets that raise is it unfair to the others who are left at some minimum wage rate?

 

[Carlos]

And screw the guy who has been there less time but is ten times more productive.

Here's another question: You raise minimum wage to $15 an hour. What do you do for the employee already making $15 an hour after years of earning pay raises?

But ultimately, let's look at what happens if you raise minimum wage to $15 an hour. The job ad for the position goes from "no experience necessary" to "minimum four years experience" or something along those lines. They don't want to spend two weeks paying a guy $15 an hour to be trained when they can instead hire an experienced employee who requires almost no training.

If you worry about the single mom with no experience or schooling then don't raise the minimum wage so high that the guy with some schooling and experience will always be the preferred option.


And what is wrong with no minimum wage, where two guys are applying for a job that pays $7? As he turns in his application the second guy says, "I'll do it for $6." Second guy gets the job at $6 an hour. Better yet, what's wrong with a guy going to his boss and saying, "My performance numbers show that I am 50% more productive than anyone else on this staff. I feel I deserve a raise." If he gets that raise is it unfair to the others who are left at some minimum wage rate?

With input I meant the same as what you are describing. I too think it's fair that guy who puts in 50% more gets more money.

 

[Keef]

http://mises.org/daily/6868/The-Unseen-Costs-of-the-Minimum-Wage

Maybe if they knew economics. Oh, right... fast food workers.

Looking forward to ordering by smartphone soon.

Seriously, if I could place my Mac D's order in-app on my way there, walk in, tap my iPhone on the wireless payment thing, grab my bag and go, I would be so happy. No effiing around with retarded fast food employees.

Props to Raising Cane's and Chick-fil-A employees who actually put in effort. They're going places.

 

[Joel]

With input I meant the same as what you are describing. I too think it's fair that guy who puts in 50% more gets more money.

It's fair that the guy who produces 50% more gets more money.

 

[Jubby]

It's fair that the guy who produces 50% more gets more money.

It may be fair, but there's a bigger problem here. The guy who produces the lesser amount should be fired. Then give some of that money to the guy who produces more. A great incentive.
Get two people to produce 50% more, then fire the lowest producer, share the profit and get rid of dead weight.
It's sad that doesn't happen anymore with all of the new labor requirements and collateral damage when terminating workers. Businesses are afraid of unemployement compensation and the fact that most states don't really give a crap that some workers suck (by intention or lack of skill).
Oh... and that guy that produced 50% more will be moving onto a better job soon and make 1.5-2+ times as much as he has been.<-- That's how you get your $15.00 per hour.

 

[Joel]

I used that wording because @Carlos said it's fair that the guy who has 50% more input gets paid more. That's wrong, the guy who outputs more will be paid more. It doesn't matter if you're the hardest working guy in the world if nothing you do is valuable.

 

[Carlos]

I used that wording because @Carlos said it's fair that the guy who has 50% more input gets paid more. That's wrong, the guy who outputs more will be paid more. It doesn't matter if you're the hardest working guy in the world if nothing you do is valuable.

That person would be sitting at the wrong table. It's not even fair to let somebody put so much effort into something he can't. I think it's fair to help them get a different job in the firm and if that's not possible the door. But like @Jubby said that guy who does 50% more will probably move on too because he is under challenged. It would be a boss's dream if the over achievers would stay where they are but that's not their nature. Then you have to keep in mind if your work consists working in a team those people need to fit together in some way. We have guys on the floor that are pretty slow and their output in percentage is lower than what we expect but the reason they stay is because they are the people that can educate the new employees, show up for overtime, care to participate in meetings instead of just hearing it out. Some days we think darn can't we get rid of him but maybe it's good those rules are there because valuable people would have been fired. It also protects the never achieving anything people but it's very hard to put them in boxes.

 

[KSaiyu]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/19/la-minimum-wage_n_7336932.html
Los Angeles Votes To Raise Minimum Wage To $15

It's happening?

On Tuesday, the Los Angeles City Council set itself up to raise its minimum wage from its current level of $9 per hour to $15 per hour in 2020. The bill still faces a final vote. But based on the 14-1 vote on Tuesday, it’s all but certain to pass. It’s a major victory for labor unions and liberal organizations.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121855/los-angeles-raising-minimum-wage-15-shows-fight-15-worked

 

[Lizard]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/19/la-minimum-wage_n_7336932.html
Los Angeles Votes To Raise Minimum Wage To $15

It's happening?

On Tuesday, the Los Angeles City Council set itself up to raise its minimum wage from its current level of $9 per hour to $15 per hour in 2020. The bill still faces a final vote. But based on the 14-1 vote on Tuesday, it’s all but certain to pass. It’s a major victory for labor unions and liberal organizations.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/121855/los-angeles-raising-minimum-wage-15-shows-fight-15-worked

Bloody hell. That is more than even the Labour party here wanted.

 

[Danoff]

Bloody hell. That is more than even the Labour party here wanted.

Sooner or later you guys in the UK will realize that the US is just as socialist on many policies, and on some we've got you beat.

 

[Joel]

Seriously, if I could place my Mac D's order in-app on my way there, walk in, tap my iPhone on the wireless payment thing, grab my bag and go, I would be so happy. No effiing around with retarded fast food employees.

Props to Raising Cane's and Chick-fil-A employees who actually put in effort. They're going places.

This is already a thing in France and a number of other European countries. In French McDonalds restaurants there's usually only 2 or 3 regular cash registers, and then a bunch of touch screen machines where you just choose your order, pay with your credit card, and your receipt has an order number. The only interaction with the employee is when they ask if you want mayo or ketchup. I'm pretty sure you can order online for pickup or with a phone app too (like a Dominos pizza order) but I haven't tried that.

It's funny what happens when jobs which require unskilled labour are ludicrously expensive to fill. The machines speak 5 languages too.

 

[KSaiyu]

I'm no economist but....is the biggest negative with this job losses?

Reading this article as a primer
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...iggest-city-yet-to-approve-a-15-minimum-wage/

 

[Danoff]

@KSaiyu

The biggest negative is that it's immoral to inject force into an otherwise voluntary contractual arrangement. A side effect is job losses and artificial increased costs of certain goods.

The bottom line is that these workers can't earn that paycheck. The result will be a restructuring of business practices to avoid hiring. The more US employees cost (Social Security, OSHA, healthcare, minimum wage, reasonable accommodations, and of course frivolous litigation), the more pressure employers have to not hire, outsource, or hire illegal immigrants.

Los Angeles is basically saying "we want you to hire as few low-end workers as you possibly can, and if your business model relies on it, please fold up shop".

...and you thought the number of unused checkout lanes at your grocery store was bad now....

 

[Joel]

@KSaiyu Price floors create a shortage, there's tons of people who are willing to work for $15 an hour (or lease an apartment for $400 a month), but far less people willing to pay $15 an hour (or rent out an apartment for $400 a month). That's the basic econ 101 answer, that this will lead to fewer jobs because there's simply far less people willing to employ at that price than people willing to work at that price.

The other negative consequence is that it will probably make things even worse for the people living paycheck to paycheck working at McDonalds. I used to work in a basic family restaurant, the staff there were mostly high school kids at minimum wage, and 20 somethings working for a few dollars above minimum wage. It was a lot harder than working at McDonalds, but the bit of extra pay and the variety in food we could make ourselves at work instead of eating McD's made it worth working long hours in a 65C kitchen. Supervisors were paid around $12 an hour, and I can tell you these people would be gone in an instant if McDonalds was paying $15. Suddenly the single mom who didn't graduate high school, or the 17 year old looking for a first job are going to be competing with 25 year olds who've been working for the past 4 years as a supervisor and saute cook at a real restaurant.

Right now we have lots of college educated people working for around $15 an hour, and in a lot of pretty stressful and difficult fields. I'd imagine for a lot of them they'd be reconsidering the hours spent on TPS reports or carrying 2x4's around if they could get the same amount of money pulling up a fry basket.

 

[Danoff]

@KSaiyu Price floors create a shortage, there's tons of people who are willing to work for $15 an hour (or lease an apartment for $400 a month), but far less people willing to pay $15 an hour (or rent out an apartment for $400 a month). That's the basic econ 101 answer, that this will lead to fewer jobs because there's simply far less people willing to employ at that price than people willing to work at that price.

It also makes alternatives significantly more viable. Grocery stores have been teetering on implementing RFID tags in every item so that you can just push your cart through the door and get charged. They didn't because it costs them for each item. They just need something like this to push them over the edge of not hiring any cashiers at all. A 50% increase in labor prices will drive some fascinating technology development to circumvent humans.

 

[Pupik]

How gradual is the change to $15/hour? 10 cents a year?

I can see it now: legal discrimination against those with less than eight arms so the push for automation can really begin. You read it here first.

Seriously, the problem will be having automated production, is that it still likely has greater initial operating and maintenance costs than a worker at $15/hour.

 

[Joel]

It also makes alternatives significantly more viable. Grocery stores have been teetering on implementing RFID tags in every item so that you can just push your cart through the door and get charged. They didn't because it costs them for each item. They just need something like this to push them over the edge of not hiring any cashiers at all. A 50% increase in labor prices will drive some fascinating technology development to circumvent humans.

That sounds really interesting. The idea being that you'd set up an account and it would charge your credit card for whatever RFID tags it detects going though the door?

I was saying earlier to an old post from Keef commenting about how he wishes McDonalds would just let you order online and pick up your food like you can with a pizza chain. That's already a thing in Europe, and there's usually 2 or 3 times as many self order machines where you pay by credit card compared to regular cash registers with a human worker. I'd imagine it won't be long before you see those machines in LA. Generally the only interaction with fast food workers here is when they call your order number out loud, you nod, and then they ask if you want ketchup or mayo (always mayo - they should automate this too).

 

[KSaiyu]

@KSaiyu
The other negative consequence is that it will probably make things even worse for the people living paycheck to paycheck working at McDonalds. I used to work in a basic family restaurant, the staff there were mostly high school kids at minimum wage, and 20 somethings working for a few dollars above minimum wage. It was a lot harder than working at McDonalds, but the bit of extra pay and the variety in food we could make ourselves at work instead of eating McD's made it worth working long hours in a 65C kitchen. Supervisors were paid around $12 an hour, and I can tell you these people would be gone in an instant if McDonalds was paying $15. Suddenly the single mom who didn't graduate high school, or the 17 year old looking for a first job are going to be competing with 25 year olds who've been working for the past 4 years as a supervisor and saute cook at a real restaurant.

I used to be a Kitchen Porter at a family run Italian restaurant. Harsh work and not even some of the best pizza in London could make up for it. My next job was in a warehouse which was the final straw that pushed me to return to education. Come to think of it, if I was getting a crazy good minimum wage in those jobs my life could have turned out a lot differently.

@KSaiyu
...and you thought the number of unused checkout lanes at your grocery store was bad now....

It is scary to think how quickly this has happened in the small Tescos/Sainsburys around here. Some days they practically have to beg customers to go in that lane rather than self service.