Finally they got race cars correct!

[artboy76]

Turn 10 have achieved it. They made the R3-R1 cars drivable!

These sort of cars are the pinacle of motorsport, they spend millons of pounds to make these cars the best. They have aero all over the place designed to make them stick to the road.......

So they should feel like they are!

And they do!!

The R3 BMW is a perfect example, you can now get the power down and it handles awesome and the DTM merc is stunning!!

Theres an odd section of folks who think that these cars should be impossible to drive in a game when actually they are designed to be the opposite IRL!!

The DTM merc is as sharp to drive as i'd expect of a car with space ship aero. As it should be!

 

[Killer46]

They should be fairly easy when within their limits. It's when you go beyond the limits where they are little ****** to drive.

Many times (even in F3) having a small slide here or just touching the grass there equalled a violent spin.

 

[Carlos]

Theres an odd section of folks who think that these cars should be impossible to drive in a game when actually they are designed to be the opposite IRL!!

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Everything that is designed to be pushed to it's limits, is going to bite you so hard you wish you wouldn't even thought of driving it.

 

[PzR Crazy]

I do like how the cars are manageable around the limit. I feel they could make them more snappy, like other sims type games, and this certainly is jumped on by a lot of 'detractors', but for me, it's not killing the game at all, you lose momentum, you scrub loads of speed, but you do at least have every chance of keeping it pointing roughly in the right direction, the rest of the physics more then make up for it, making it far more rewarding/challenging then most games, as everything seems to affect your forward momentum.. that coupled with the Audio means I'm enjoying it more then FM3 by a country mile..

 

[artboy76]

Well for a start i dont believe my skills in a racing game mean that in real life i'd be able to drive the car like that anyway, but my point is that no one spends millions to develop a car thats usless or impossible to drive on the limit. They all want to build a race winner.

But obvioulsy within that you do get cars like HRT F1 and Virgin etc etc And the history of motorsport for every Red Bull theres hundreds of HRT's. But yeah i expect in a game for it to 'simulate' the ease at which these cars car be driven fast and hard. None of this nosense that its only 'sim' if the cars are nigh on impossible to drive but for the hermit like mole that sits on his PC all day playing iRacing stopping only to eat more fast food............

 

[t.o.]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Everything that is designed to be pushed to it's limits, is going to bite you so hard you wish you wouldn't even thought of driving it.

I'm with you on this one. These cars are designed to get the most of out of their components by a skilled driver.
EDIT: And that's not going to always mean easy to drive.

 

[artboy76]

I'm with you on this one. These cars are designed to get the most of out of their components by a skilled driver.
EDIT: And that's not going to always mean easy to drive.

Exactly a proffessional racing driver perhaps??

 

[Wolfe]

This game strikes a better balance between "top class roadcars/racecars are worthlessly impossible" and "top class roadcars/racecars are fluffy kittens" than any other console game I know, that's for sure. I haven't spent a lot of time with the race-spec cars yet, so I don't know how they feel.

 

[Fuzzv_W]

I do like how the cars are manageable around the limit. I feel they could make them more snappy, like other sims type games, and this certainly is jumped on by a lot of 'detractors', but for me, it's not killing the game at all, you lose momentum, you scrub loads of speed, but you do at least have every chance of keeping it pointing roughly in the right direction, the rest of the physics more then make up for it, making it far more rewarding/challenging then most games, as everything seems to affect your forward momentum.. that coupled with the Audio means I'm enjoying it more then FM3 by a country mile..

Well said.

 

[BryCivicSi]

How many of these race cars have you driven IRL to know they are correct as you say?

 

[local chap]

The R3 M3 is such a chore to drive. If they got "race cars right" I'd hate to be the other poor drivers on the track when that thing is out there.

 

[Kreepnslayer]

I'm with you on this one. These cars are designed to get the most of out of their components by a skilled driver.
EDIT: And that's not going to always mean easy to drive.

Exactly. There's a reason not everyone can be a race driver.

 

[Luminis]

Exactly. There's a reason not everyone can be a race driver.

Uh, yeah, because that has nothing to do with, you know, competing with the other drivers out there... There's a difference between driving a race car and driving a race car faster than 20 other guys for a few hours.

For example, Sport Auto had an article on the M3 GT2. You know, the one that's running in the ALMS championship and stuff. Jörg Müller, professional racing driver, said the following during that article: "A good endurance racer has to be easy to drive."

Müller also mentioned how the M3 GT2 is already incredibly easy to drive fast and that notion was seconded by Sport Auto's writer Marcus Schurig.

Looking at the representation in some games, no amateur driver should ever be able to just climb into a race car and drive it around Oschersleben for a few laps and get out of it alive again. However, exactly that seems to be pretty possible in real life. And I, for one, trust the opinion of seasoned race car drivers and Sport Auto's writer a bit more than the usual idea that race cars are almost impossible to control.

If anyone's interestet, here's the article. It's in German, though.

 

[Kreepnslayer]

Uh, yeah, because that has nothing to do with, you know, competing with the other drivers out there... There's a difference between driving a race car and driving a race car faster than 20 other guys for a few hours.

For example, Sport Auto had an article on the M3 GT2. You know, the one that's running in the ALMS championship and stuff. Jörg Müller, professional racing driver, said the following during that article: "A good endurance racer has to be easy to drive."

Müller also mentioned how the M3 GT2 is already incredibly easy to drive fast and that notion was seconded by Sport Auto's writer Marcus Schurig.

Looking at the representation in some games, no amateur driver should ever be able to just climb into a race car and drive it around Oschersleben for a few laps and get out of it alive again. However, exactly that seems to be pretty possible in real life. And I, for one, trust the opinion of seasoned race car drivers and Sport Auto's writer a bit more than the usual idea that race cars are almost impossible to control.

If anyone's interestet, here's the article. It's in German, though.

Wow. Sorry I said anything, captain. Your comment really comes off snotty.

Still, I'd be willing to bet there's a huge freakin difference between an easy to drive, every day kind of a car and a full blown race car.


Plenty of people want to drive fast or race and think that just because they might be able to do it in a game means they can do it in real life. Then the harsh reality of a guard rail, tree or other car sets in when they get in over their head.

I remember reading articles about journalists not even being able to get a race car off the line without stalling it out numerous times much less drive the car anywhere near where a real race driver can.

I think these drivers do think these cars are "easy" to drive, but that's them. That's because a lot of them have a gift and have honed that gift into something special.
It would be like a piano virtuoso saying that Chopin is "easy" to play. It very well might be for him, but to the average person we couldnt even touch it.

I even see plenty of people show up to the little Autocrosses I attend thinking their hot stuff because they've got a fast car and they can't even drive it well enough to post decent times. They go away humbled when people in lesser cars end up smoking them.

I'm sorry. I'll stick to the belief that for average people a race car would be tough to drive at the limit. I think easy is a relative term here.

 

[Luminis]

I'm sorry. I'll stick to the belief that for average people a race car would be tough to drive at the limit. I think easy is a relative term here.

And I'd say that, for an average person, driving every car at the limit would be a challenge. Somehow, though, people seem to think that they are supposed to be able to drive a road car at the same pace as the Stig does, but driving a race car at the same pace as him should be impossible. I don't quite get where that notion comes from, really.

You gave the perfect example yourself: Your average Joe can't even get the most out of his daily driver, but nobody seems to have a problem with being able to do so in a game. It's just when it doesn't have a license plate that people seem to think it should actually be impossible for your average guy to drive it at the limit. Which really doesn't make sense, does it?

Oh, and by the way: The sole point of posting that article was to make a point against the idea that race cars have to be impossible to drive unless you're a gifted driver.

 

[Kreepnslayer]

You gave the perfect example yourself: Your average Joe can't even get the most out of his daily driver, but nobody seems to have a problem with being able to do so in a game. It's just when it doesn't have a license plate that people seem to think it should actually be impossible for your average guy to drive it at the limit. Which really doesn't make sense, does it?

It actually does make sense to me. Theres a lot more going on in a car in real life than there is in any game or sim no matter how good it is.

The notion that an average person that can't drive their WRX fast enough to beat me in my lame Ford Focus should be able to strap into a race car and have no trouble driving it at the limit makes no sense to me.

I still maintain that easy is a relative term in this case

 

[Wolfe]

KreepnSlayer, a racecar should be easy for any initiated driver to handle at a reasonable pace. That was Luminis' first point as I understand it. In a RWD car like an M3 GT2 there's a huge difference between taking a corner at 50mph in 5th gear, and doing the same in 2nd. You may be pushing the front tires to the limit either way (and appear fairly quick while doing it), but drivetrain lash from the high RPM of 2nd gear would make the car more unpredictable. Anyone with performance driving experience knows this and would temper their driving in order to maintain control of the car, especially in a non-racing hypothetical like this. You don't have to drive at 10/10ths to drive quickly; in endurance racing you often don't want to drive at 10/10ths at all.

You are correct that a total novice should stand no chance trying to, say, divebomb Laguna Seca's first hairpin on their first try. That's the mistake novices make -- leaping right into driving at 10/10ths when for them it's really 10/3rds. But a racecar is still not very different from a normal car; with the discipline I described above, anyone should be able to live through a lap behind the wheel of a racecar.

What I think Luminis was trying to say in the second post is that it makes no sense for a complete novice to have no issues with a virtual roadcar, and then get clobbered by the unruly antics of a virtual racecar. If anyone and their mother can drive a street legal M3 as fast as the Stig, that's the simulator's problem. If the same simulator makes the M3 GT2 a worthless tire-shredding merry-go-round, that just doesn't make sense.

I still maintain that easy is a relative term in this case

It is. But I think "easy" can scale further down in skill level than you might expect.

 

[artboy76]

Interesting comments. I'd say i'm a pretty competent virtual driver. I'm pretty good at driving my real life cars too, many track days and i currently drive an Alfa GTV V6 with Q2 and many more mods.
But certainly as far as driving virtual race cars from over the years i'm good at it. Get my Dad on my wheel and pedals and a driving game and hes usless!!! Hes in his 60's and never played computer games before apart from when i force him to test my experiment.

See he can drive a car in real life very well, he used to race cars and my 2 brothers both followed in his foot steps and my older brother is a trebel champion in his race series in the UK. You dont have to beleive me but its true and we can all drive cars / karts / motorbikes well, its in out DNA.

So my bros and my Dad are proven race drivers and im not, yet on Forza i rule over them and they are rubbish cant even control squat.... cause i have practise on the games over years and years!!

thats all, so in a game i should beable to drive an R1 car at least not spin out all the time, see its a game!

forza nails aero and a tight expensive technical marvel thats a high class race car....nails it. yes in real life i could drive one but not be a world beater!! thats the point, i can punch but i couldnt beat Tyson in the ring!!

for a seasoned gamer on race titles you should find those cars 'easy' to drive// simple.

 

[Luminis]

It actually does make sense to me. Theres a lot more going on in a car in real life than there is in any game or sim no matter how good it is.

The notion that an average person that can't drive their WRX fast enough to beat me in my lame Ford Focus should be able to strap into a race car and have no trouble driving it at the limit makes no sense to me.

I still maintain that easy is a relative term in this case

Wait, who exactly said that an average Joe should be able to strap into a race car and drive it at the limit, if he can't drive his WRX at the limit?

All I'm saying is, if someone's able to drive a WRX at the limit in the game, why would it be that much harder for him to drive a race car at the limit? Okay, a WRX might not be the perfect example. But, first off, race cars aren't necessarily murder machines. They're not build to be hard to harness, quite the opposite.

What rubs me the wrong way is that people are perfectly fine if they can buy themselves a Zonda Cinque, drive it at the very limit like a boss and everything is fine. It's a road car, after all, so they're supposed to be able to control it, right?

And then, they're getting themselves a Zonda R, drive it just as close to the limit and complain about how tame the race cars are... All I'm actually saying is, if you're able to drive a road car at the limit in the game, I see no possible reason why all race cars should tear your head of, per se.

If I'm able to break a Top Gear Power Lap record set by the Stig, why would I not be good enough (ingame, of course) to drive a race car as fast as he does?

What I think Luminis was trying to say in the second post is that it makes no sense for a complete novice to have no issues with a virtual roadcar, and then get clobbered by the unruly antics of a virtual racecar.

Thanks Wolfe, my point exactly. I never quite understood why video games make it seem like race cars have to be hell to drive. The game should be coherent. Either make all cars hard to handle at the limit, so hard that you actually have to be a professional to handle even the road cars at a 10/10 pace, or make all of them usable for, well, the average Joe.

 

[Kreepnslayer]

Look, reading and rereading posts I think you and I are debating essentially the same thing.

I don't believe that you're average person that can't get the most out of their daily driver could drive a race car at the limit. Your first reply to me made it sound like race cars are perfectly easy for anyone to drive fast. Anyone at all.

Again, I say there's a reason not everyone can be a race driver.


Oh, and I guess back on topic here since we sort of hijacked this thread with our silly debate, I don't find the race cars in FM4 any more or less difficult to drive than they were in FM3.

 

[omgitsbees]

Speaking for myself only, if I were to get into a real life race car, and attempt to take it around a track, I would get myself killed within the first few laps.

 

[artboy76]

For me i found some cars in FM3 stupid, like the R3 Zonda, now in FM4 its a joy to drive, yes it'll bite yo, but it brakes well and corners well put down it power well.

Check out its wing!! FFS!

It should corner well!!!!

Thats my point.
I could get in that car IRL and drive it. Not break the Nurb ring record, just drive it, maybe stall it at first but not just spin around and around.

I'm a handy GAME driver, i know this from forza etc etc.
I know i can drive any car i've driven IRL pretty well.
All i'm saying is if you get a pro driver into a well prepped Race car with pounds of downforce and sticky tyres, he'll drive it!
Then it comes down to his skills and race craft if he can win or not.

So in a GAME if i'm a good driver IN GAME, then i should therefore get into a race car IN GAME and drive well.....thats all im saying...and Forza nails it.

Its like with F1, yes its the pinacle of motorsport, but that dosent mean that the cars are undriveable monsters! Listen to how Brundle talks of the RED BULL. These cars are technical marvels.
Even a car like the HRT is advanced and pretty amazing in car terms, not compared to the best F1 cars but certainly compared to most race cars and road cars.

So why then would you make one impossible to drive in a driving game?

I swear its the sad virtual iRacers who expect a virtual car to be nigh on impossible to drive and if it isnt they call out games like Forza as arcade! its myths!!

 

[PzR Crazy]

I think it's a tricky subject, one where there are many right answers..

I think there is a lot of truth in the obvious differences between video game and real life.. The main one is the missing feedback that lets you instantly know if the car is starting to rotate, the feeback that stops you just mashing the throttle at every oppertunity, when tracking a car, I've never had any car massively let go and bit me as much as occurs in-game (some games are more viscious then others).. I tend to be able to sense the limit, and found everything I've tracked has had nice progressive limits, a small amount of slide induces, just a smidge of understeer before the rear starts to let go..

Because the feedback is missing in-game, you are left with a problem, if you do nothing, then although technically it might appear more accurate on paper, the actual experience in-game is going to differ to real life, you will find the car biting you much harder as you just can't sense the 'g' forces at all, you can't sense that little rotation that could be the sign that one of the car's axles is approaching the limit etc.. You will be driving the car in a manner that you never would in real life..
This is where I think T10 have obviously used some artistic licence, by making it more progressive, and more 'safe' when it gets out of shape, they have widened the limit, made it much more linear, this is technically not as accurate to real life (IMO), but as an experience of driving, I think it's probably closer to what people experience themselves, ie. you only see a small amount of people really losing it on trackdays, they aren't going around fishtailing at every opportunity..

All I am saying, is I believe FM4 has a wide/progressive/artificial limit to the handling, and that although not technically accurate, I think it's not a terrible attempt at bending the rules to try and give an experience closer to real life for most people.

While the good/bad of this is obvious and can be argue'd ad infinitum, you have to temper it all with the actual layers of physics that surround the tyres.. making it soft does not make it easier to get a fast laptime.. fast laptimes are gained when you are keeping it just on/over the limit, where you never want more then a few percent slip on any axle, or you won't be carrying the optimum momentum.. it's what you have to do in optimising momentum that often gets overlooked IMO, and one area that shows the complexity of a physics engine.. on this level, I like FM4..

 

[artboy76]

I think it's a tricky subject, one where there are many right answers..

I think there is a lot of truth in the obvious differences between video game and real life.. The main one is the missing feedback that lets you instantly know if the car is starting to rotate, the feeback that stops you just mashing the throttle at every oppertunity, when tracking a car, I've never had any car massively let go and bit me as much as occurs in-game (some games are more viscious then others).. I tend to be able to sense the limit, and found everything I've tracked has had nice progressive limits, a small amount of slide induces, just a smidge of understeer before the rear starts to let go..

Because the feedback is missing in-game, you are left with a problem, if you do nothing, then although technically it might appear more accurate on paper, the actual experience in-game is going to differ to real life, you will find the car biting you much harder as you just can't sense the 'g' forces at all, you can't sense that little rotation that could be the sign that one of the car's axles is approaching the limit etc.. You will be driving the car in a manner that you never would in real life..
This is where I think T10 have obviously used some artistic licence, by making it more progressive, and more 'safe' when it gets out of shape, they have widened the limit, made it much more linear, this is technically not as accurate to real life (IMO), but as an experience of driving, I think it's probably closer to what people experience themselves, ie. you only see a small amount of people really losing it on trackdays, they aren't going around fishtailing at every opportunity..

All I am saying, is I believe FM4 has a wide/progressive/artificial limit to the handling, and that although not technically accurate, I think it's not a terrible attempt at bending the rules to try and give an experience closer to real life for most people.

While the good/bad of this is obvious and can be argue'd ad infinitum, you have to temper it all with the actual layers of physics that surround the tyres.. making it soft does not make it easier to get a fast laptime.. fast laptimes are gained when you are keeping it just on/over the limit, where you never want more then a few percent slip on any axle, or you won't be carrying the optimum momentum.. it's what you have to do in optimising momentum that often gets overlooked IMO, and one area that shows the complexity of a physics engine.. on this level, I like FM4..

Really interesting read. I think for me if i play and enjoy a racing game, even using my wheel and pedals i never think in my head that i could do what i do in game in real life. I know im a good driver IRL and very capable. But you do get people who play these games and question things like lap times compared to real life and i swear they think that if they are driving Gods in game it means they will be IRL and could get the same times!!
If they can its just coincedense anyway.
Lewis Hamiltons little brother is a virtual race champion and Lewis admits he cant beat him on any driving GAME..... but Lewis has won a World Championship IRL!

I balme GT5 for this myth of the GT academy. That could be the Cadbury academy and they could wittel down drivers form thousands then find a good one then say chocolate makes them a good race car driver!!! Matters not that they once played GT5!!! FFS!! lol

 

[RX-7_FD3S]

I dont agree I think simulator like Rfactor, GT5 or FM4 can help people learn many things about racing. Line, braking point, how to go faster on a corner than someone else (by watching ghost and stuyding what to do), how to overtake people etc.. how to pace your race and not over drive.

Sure it's not because you're hella fast in a game that you could go to a track and be fast, there's other factor like fear, your brain telling you it's not a game, and many other factor. However if you takes two people let's say at 20 y.o., one that never did any racing game . and on the other hand someone that is racing virtual cars since 12 and is a good racer (no ramer, all assist guy etc.) and you'll see that the guy used to racing game will be a lot faster on racetrack. I'm pretty sure of that.

 

[prymet1me]

You guys are looking way too deep into this,....its a game after all. The cars should be accessible to anyone who plays even if you go all assists off. A good console game should be able to blur the line with the race cars and FM does it really well. Its not "arcade" but you dont have to be a pro race driver to drive the R class cars.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I was also very surprised when I was playing the demo then picked the Zonda. I thought for sure it was going to be impossible to drive with all assists off but I was wrong. The car is VERY drivable. Thats when I knew they made a huge improvement with the traction in F4. There are some cars out there that can be a handful but the majority of the race cars are in fact, drivable. There are still some traction issues with certain cars but overall its much much better than F3 traction.

 

[Killer46]

I was also very surprised when I was playing the demo then picked the Zonda. I thought for sure it was going to be impossible to drive with all assists off but I was wrong. The car is VERY drivable. Thats when I knew they made a huge improvement with the traction in F4. There are some cars out there that can be a handful but the majority of the race cars are in fact, drivable. There are still some traction issues with certain cars but overall its much much better than F3 traction.

The Zonda should be drivable. I hate nothing more than a game artificially making this harder than they should be, especially if it's a "simulator".

 

[Luminis]

The Zonda should be drivable. I hate nothing more than a game artificially making this harder than they should be, especially if it's a "simulator".

Agreed. Problem is, a lot of people seem to be dead set on the idea that it's only realistic if it's hard. Who cares about dozens of reeviews that state that the Zonda for example, is pretty easy to drive fast? It's only realistic if it's nigh impossible to control a fast car...

That's the impression I get from some folks, at the very least

 

[Killer46]

Agreed. Problem is, a lot of people seem to be dead set on the idea that it's only realistic if it's hard. Who cares about dozens of reeviews that state that the Zonda for example, is pretty easy to drive fast? It's only realistic if it's nigh impossible to control a fast car...

That's the impression I get from some folks, at the very least

My reply to those people is "So you obviously think it's more realistic than real life"