First screening of all Six Star Wars

[Rue]

Hayden Christensen was, is, and will always be a SAPPY actor, and his pouty, boyish looks and wooden make-believe turmoil style of acting did not convince me that he had the acting chops to play Anakin Skywalker. Hell, even the kid from Phantom Menace did a better job; at least with him, you could dismiss his awful acting with the excuse "he's just a kid." Honestly, when Hayden tried to express anger, I actually laughed at him. Out loud. When he tried to express deeper emotions such as love, I groaned. Out loud. Anyone who tries to tell me that this guy is a suitable choice for Anakin Skywalker has no clue what they are talking about. In my opinion, he was hired for his looks and to attract more female viewers to the series.

Read my post at the end of the first page. This is all Lucas' doing!

 

[Swift]

Double posting = bad

 

[///M-Spec]

Well, I remember going to see Return of the Jedi with my dad, who wanted to see it even more than I did (I was about 6 at the time). And I bet most adult males around 50 years old today that I ask about the Star Wars Trilogy would say they loved it. Star Wars was way more than just three sci-fi movies when they were released, as I'm sure you already know. To suggest that they appealed to children only, to suggest that they did not have a tremendously lasting impression on the adults of the era, is to miss the phenomenon that was Star Wars completely.

That's cool your dad was excited about Return of the Jedi, but I would say he is an exception. My dad dutifully took me to all three movies the week they came out, but really couldn't care less about them. My father in law didn't even take his daughters; he let an aunt do it. And I would say most people older than 50 feel the same way.

Anecdotal evidence from both of us aside, can you honestly say the majority of Star Wars fans are not people 35 and younger, with 40 being the higher end? How old are the people attending the conventions? Reading the EU books? Collecting the comics and figures and dressing up as stormtroopers? I would bet real money that statistically, Star Wars fans (people that do more than just see the movie) were born after 1965 and not before. Star Wars is gen X, not baby boomer.

And I doubt very much if you saw my bedroom in 1983 you would think I "missed the Star Wars phenomenon completely". Dude, I was the Star Wars phenomenon. I had the toys, the trading cards, the freakin bedsheets; heck, I even entertained the adults at family gatherings with my own version of a one man (boy) Star Wars show. (you should have heard them laugh when I fought both sides of a lightsaber battle )

This crap we have today feels like "same old, same old" because that's exactly what it is. There's nothing in the way of special effects or technological innovations in either The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones that audiences haven't seen countless times before in arguably better movies. Therefore, viewers try to latch on to the characters in search of something "good" about the movies. And aside from Ewan McGregor, I don't see any characters with any depth at all. Natalie Portman is about as stone-faced as they come, as is the now completely-CG Yoda. Even Samuel Jackson's performance feels restrained ("No, he will not be trained." UGH).

Oh well. To each his own. There is nothing more for me to argue on a subjective level, the quality of the first two prequals. Opinions are opinions. FWIW, the prequel cast has good moments and not so good moments... just like the classic cast.

"It's you, Leia"
"Noooooooooooooo"
(whine) "But I was going to go to Tachi Station to pick up some power converters!!!"

All of which can be offset by the sheer brilliance of...

"I know." and "Tell your sister, you were right."

On an objective, techincal level, however, I think you are wrong. Phantom Menance had way more effects shots (over 1800, if I remember right) than any film before it. By way of comparision, a "big effects" film like T2 had 600ish. The level of production design for Menance and Clones blows away anything to come before them.

The standard reference disc for home theater sound systems continues to be the pod racing sequence from The Phantom Menance --a sequence, I may add, utterly blows away the very similar speederbike sequence from Jedi.

And really.. seriously, there is nothing that can rival the Jinn/Kenobi/Maul duel at the end of Menance. NOTHING.

And with the one exception of the Siege of Helm's Deep in The Two Towers, where could an audience see a vast, epic sci-fi/fantasy battle where every shot was a pure effects shot like Geonosis a "countless" number of times?? (don't say Minas Tirinth, because that was a year later... and that would still number only two)

Wrong in so many ways you are!

This may be true, if it weren't so positively false.


M

 

[DQuaN]

And really.. seriously, there is nothing that can rival the Jinn/Kenobi/Maul duel at the end of Menance. NOTHING.

M

I thought a duel was between two people? Duet, Duel, Dual, 2

 

[Swift]

Anecdotal evidence from both of us aside, can you honestly say the majority of Star Wars fans are not people 35 and younger, with 40 being the higher end? How old are the people attending the conventions? Reading the EU books? Collecting the comics and figures and dressing up as stormtroopers? I would bet real money that statistically, Star Wars fans (people that do more than just see the movie) were born after 1965 and not before. Star Wars is gen X, not baby boomer.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Even though alot of parents brought their children to the movie, many young adults were looking forward to Empire and ROTJ.

So, thanks, you proved my point exactly!

And really.. seriously, there is nothing that can rival the Jinn/Kenobi/Maul duel at the end of Menance. NOTHING.

Except for the incredibly weak ways that Quigon and Darth Maul were killed. I mean they have all those skills, but Qui Gon falls for the oldest trick in the book and Darth maul gets cocky and suddenly slow and can't react to Obi wan's incredibly predictable actions. Before that thouh, yep, best fight in the history of Star Wars movies.

 

[///M-Spec]

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Even though alot of parents brought their children to the movie, many young adults were looking forward to Empire and ROTJ.

So, thanks, you proved my point exactly!

Are you sure? Someone who was a "young adult" looking forward to Empire in 1980 would have been in his/her early 20s. Thus, they were born in 1955-1960.

This same person today would be 50 to 55 years old. How many 50 year olds are you seeing at Celebration III or camping out to see the new movie? They all look pretty young to me... (well, you can't tell the ones under the stormtrooper outfits... but I bet they're younger than 50).

Except for the incredibly weak ways that Quigon and Darth Maul were killed. I mean they have all those skills, but Qui Gon falls for the oldest trick in the book and Darth maul gets cocky and suddenly slow and can't react to Obi wan's incredibly predictable actions. Before that thouh, yep, best fight in the history of Star Wars movies.

All the major characters have pretty weak deaths if you think about it. Kenobi commits suicide, Yoda dies of old age and Palpatine is --what? Thrown off a railing into a pit. All of them, as Sam Jackson puts it, "go out like punks".

The only Star Wars character that dies in a glaze of glory is the nameless A-Wing fighter pilot who takes out the Super Star Destroyer at the end of Jedi. Now he didn't go out like a punk.


M

 

[Anderton Prime]

Anecdotal evidence from both of us aside, can you honestly say the majority of Star Wars fans are not people 35 and younger, with 40 being the higher end? How old are the people attending the conventions? Reading the EU books? Collecting the comics and figures and dressing up as stormtroopers? I would bet real money that statistically, Star Wars fans (people that do more than just see the movie) were born after 1965 and not before. Star Wars is gen X, not baby boomer.

I'm not saying the biggest fans are the 50+ year-olds who were parents during the Star Wars craze. But keep in mind that people who are 50 now were about 20-25 when the movies were released, and I know there were PLENTY of people that age who were completely infatuated with everything Star Wars back in the late 70s and early 80s.

I had the toys, the trading cards, the freakin bedsheets

Ah ha ha, I had the bedsheets from Return of the Jedi. But they only fit a twin size bed, so I had to give them up when I upgraded to a queen size bed. Not sure if that was a bad thing or not...

On an objective, techincal level, however, I think you are wrong. Phantom Menance had way more effects shots (over 1800, if I remember right) than any film before it. By way of comparision, a "big effects" film like T2 had 600ish.

Exactly; that's one of the major problems with Phantom Menace. Having 1800 effects shots is rarely something to be proud of, unless again you've got one hell of a cast of fine actors to carry the movie through (which, as I've mentioned previously, was not the case with either Phantom or Clones). The entire movie comes across as being somehow un-human, and it's a direct result of having so few scenes where the actors are actually interacting with their environments and other characters. The entire movie seemed like it was CG. I wonder why the hell they even bothered to hire human actors; they could have further abused technology and made them CG too...

The standard reference disc for home theater sound systems continues to be the pod racing sequence from The Phantom Menance --a sequence, I may add, utterly blows away the very similar speederbike sequence from Jedi.

I'm sorry, but even though the Ewoks are pretty lame, seeing young Anakin argue with Sebulba (perhaps the lamest, stupidest character in Phantom next to Jar-Jar) still deserves a chuckle, which takes away from the podrace scene. And again, I don't believe that effects alone make a movie great. If it weren't for Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellan, Sean Astin, and even Elija Wood, all three Lord of the Rings movies would have been merely adequate at best. Effects don't make a movie. Don't agree? Watch Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, or Sky Captain: The World of Tomorrow. It takes ACTING to make a movie great. And not one actor in all of Phantom or Clones can hold a torch up to Harrison Ford.

And really.. seriously, there is nothing that can rival the Jinn/Kenobi/Maul duel at the end of Menance. NOTHING.

Only one problem, and that is that I didn't give a rat's a$$ about the characters fighting in that battle. I knew Obi Wan wouldn't die, and I didn't care if Qui-Gon lived or not. Darth Maul was pretty cool, until he actually LEANED OVER THE EDGE TO SEE IF OBI-WAN HAD FALLEN, AND GOT HIMSELF KILLED IN ONE OF THE STUPIDEST, LAMEST, MORONIC VILLAIN DEATHS OF THE ENTIRE SERIES!

Granted, the actual battle was cool, but I liked the Luke vs. Vader one from Jedi way better, because of the weight the fight carried with it. It actually MATTERED who won in that fight.

 

[Swift]

I'm sorry, but even though the Ewoks are pretty lame, seeing young Anakin argue with Sebulba (perhaps the lamest, stupidest character in Phantom next to Jar-Jar) still deserves a chuckle, which takes away from the podrace scene. And again, I don't believe that effects alone make a movie great. If it weren't for Viggo Mortensen, Ian McKellan, Sean Astin, and even Elija Wood, all three Lord of the Rings movies would have been merely adequate at best. Effects don't make a movie. Don't agree? Watch Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, or Sky Captain: The World of Tomorrow. It takes ACTING to make a movie great. And not one actor in all of Phantom or Clones can hold a torch up to Harrison Ford.

Only one problem, and that is that I didn't give a rat's a$$ about the characters fighting in that battle. I knew Obi Wan wouldn't die, and I didn't care if Qui-Gon lived or not. Darth Maul was pretty cool, until he actually LEANED OVER THE EDGE TO SEE IF OBI-WAN HAD FALLEN, AND GOT HIMSELF KILLED IN ONE OF THE STUPIDEST, LAMEST, MORONIC VILLAIN DEATHS OF THE ENTIRE SERIES!

Granted, the actual battle was cool, but I liked the Luke vs. Vader one from Jedi way better, because of the weight the fight carried with it. It actually MATTERED who won in that fight.

I agree about the effects. If it wasnt' for Lawrence Fishburne, would the first matrix even be watchable?

But, when you talk about the Luke vs Vader rematch, that's an unfair statement. You know the future of the series when you watch Episode I. So yeah, you know Kenobi is going to live and most likely the other two are going to die. But in ROTJ, we don't know Episode VII, so it only really "matters" because we dont' know the sequel yet.

And in essence, that's what's pretty much killing the storytelling ability of the prequels. We all know exactly how it's going to end up. So the challenge now is to tell the story in a very cool way. So far, that HASN'T been accomplished.

So, going with the title of the thread. I think it would feel very strange mixing those movies as they are LITERALLY from a different generation.


MSpec, you're absolutely right. There aren't the 50 somethings out there waiting for tickets and all. But that doesn't mean they won't see it the second weekend it's out to avoid some of the crowds.

 

[Anderton Prime]

You're telling me that when you watched Luke fight Darth Vader, you thought Vader might win? Come on now.

But I agree that watching the movies all in a row would not succeed very well in telling a sensical, linear narrative. The main reason is that the prequels look newer and more polished than the originals. I remember reading somewhere that Lucas' explanation for the difference in the ships, etc. (sleek and sexy in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the clones, clumsy and bulky in Episodes IV, V, and VI) was that the Empirre did so much damage to the entire universe with the Clone Wars that they had to salvage scraps to build ships like Tie Fighters and the Death Star. Sort of makes sense I guess...

Also, let me ask Swift and M-Spec this: If Lucas had such far-advanced technology to make the prequels as he wished he could make the originals (a feat he's tried to accomplish by re-mastering and "cleaning up" the originals, with questionable success) why are the prequels so inferior to the originals? Even if you like the first two prequels, you can't claim they're better than the originals.

 

[Swift]

You're telling me that when you watched Luke fight Darth Vader, you thought Vader might win? Come on now.

But I agree that watching the movies all in a row would not succeed very well in telling a sensical, linear narrative. The main reason is that the prequels look newer and more polished than the originals. I remember reading somewhere that Lucas' explanation for the difference in the ships, etc. (sleek and sexy in the Phantom Menace and Attack of the clones, clumsy and bulky in Episodes IV, V, and VI) was that the Empirre did so much damage to the entire universe with the Clone Wars that they had to salvage scraps to build ships like Tie Fighters and the Death Star. Sort of makes sense I guess...

Also, let me ask Swift and M-Spec this: If Lucas had such far-advanced technology to make the prequels as he wished he could make the originals (a feat he's tried to accomplish by re-mastering and "cleaning up" the originals, with questionable success) why are the prequels so inferior to the originals? Even if you like the first two prequels, you can't claim they're better than the originals.

Well, let's see...Darth Vader one the first fight...so it was a possibility to win again. Infact he was winning until Luke lost his cool.

Uh, I don't have a clue what you're talking about with the prequels. I really don't like them at all. They're ok I guess, but just really dumb in my mind. Horrible horrible storytelling.

And lucas didn't clean up the originals. That was done with the release just before the medling. It was the perfect version. Everything was just redone and updated without adding all kinds of stupid junk.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Sorry, not sure we're on the proverbial same page, Swift. I'm talking about the new DVD releases of the original Trilogy, where Lucas added scenes, put Hayden in as Anakin's Jedi ghost at the end of Episode VI, changed the music at the end of Episode VI, snipped out critical bits of film that showed bad guys getting blasted in order to make it less violent, took out Boba Fett's original voice and used Temuera Morrison's (Jango Fett from Episode II) instead, took out the original face of Emperor Palpatine in Episode V and replaced it with Ian McDiarmid's, and a whole bunch of other minute changes that, to me, detracted from the magic of the originals and made me lose almost all respect for Mr. George "I can do anything I want with MY movies" Lucas.

 

[Swift]

Sorry, not sure we're on the proverbial same page, Swift. I'm talking about the new DVD releases of the original Trilogy, where Lucas added scenes, put Hayden in as Anakin's Jedi ghost at the end of Episode VI, changed the music at the end of Episode VI, snipped out critical bits of film that showed bad guys getting blasted in order to make it less violent, took out Boba Fett's original voice and used Temuera Morrison's (Jango Fett from Episode II) instead, took out the original face of Emperor Palpatine in Episode V and replaced it with Ian McDiarmid's, and a whole bunch of other minute changes that, to me, detracted from the magic of the originals and made me lose almost all respect for Mr. George "I can do anything I want with MY movies" Lucas.

Yeah, that's the garbage I'm talking about. There was a release jsut a few months prior to the Re-release of Starwars in theatres. it was great, everything was simply touched up very nicely.

I think going back and trying to recreate things fromt he past is just dumb. If he wants to do it that badly, why not redo the movies entirely.

 

[Anderton Prime]

No, these changes were made for the DVD release only. The re-mastering and cleaning up of the prints and a few minor changes like improving the Death Star's explosion at the end of Episode IV and the extra scenes with Jabba and Han Solo in Episode IV and the altered death of Greedo in the Cantina bar and the Dewbacks with Storm Troopers riding them were for the "Special Editions" of all three originals.

Bottom line, there are now no fewer than FOUR verisons each of A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi. It is my contention - and you can take it or leave it - that Lucas is a finickety little pissant who crossed the line of "artistic liberty" long ago, and we're now seeing how little talent he has left with his latest releases (and let's not forget the fact that this man has rested on his laurels for TWENTY FRIGGING YEARS, relying on royalties and re-release after re-release of the only successful films he's ever made).

No other big-wig director in Hollywood has that kind of track record. Lucas' campy space-westerns were completely on the money when the came out twenty years ago, but that formula obviously doesn't work anymore. Lucas once said he waited so long to make the prequels because the technology didn't exist until a few years ago to allow him to create them as he envisioned them in his mind. So basically, he needed to wait until computers could do all the work, and he could hire big Hollywood faces to act in his CG monstrosities with little talent, and hope the whole thing worked. Well, both prequels so far can quite obviously be counted as a monumental failures.

 

[Swift]

you're still missing what I'm saying. Right before the reRelease of a new hope, maybe 6 months or so, there was an upgraded version released on VHS with the half faces of yoda, darth vader and a storm trooper. Those were the GOOD ones. I would to God I could get those on DVD instead of the overdone CG carnage that is on the DVD's.

Oh well.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Yes, I agree, those were the ones with only re-mastered prints and THX sound. I used to have them on VHS, but they were only the full-screen ones, so I traded them to my brother.

 

[Flerbizky]

you're still missing what I'm saying. Right before the reRelease of a new hope, maybe 6 months or so, there was an upgraded version released on VHS with the half faces of yoda, darth vader and a storm trooper. Those were the GOOD ones. I would to God I could get those on DVD instead of the overdone CG carnage that is on the DVD's.

Oh well.

hehe... It pays off to be old skool sometimes - Laserdisc - 8 Disc Box edition

 

[Swift]

hehe... It pays off to be old skool sometimes - Laserdisc - 8 Disc Box edition

Ain't that the truth! :dopey;

 

[///M-Spec]

But I agree that watching the movies all in a row would not succeed very well in telling a sensical, linear narrative. The main reason is that the prequels look newer and more polished than the originals.

The restoration work done for the DVD release is mindblowingly good. The image and sound quality are up to par with anything released in the last 5 years.

And with the one exception of the Han/Greedo scene, the changes for the DVD versions don't bother me a single bit. Therefore all is (mostly) well in my Star Wars universe.

Also, let me ask Swift and M-Spec this: If Lucas had such far-advanced technology to make the prequels as he wished he could make the originals (a feat he's tried to accomplish by re-mastering and "cleaning up" the originals, with questionable success) why are the prequels so inferior to the originals? Even if you like the first two prequels, you can't claim they're better than the originals.

The defining feature that the OT has (and the PT doesn't) is a sense of dire urgency because the threat has already materialized. The Empire has already taken over the galaxy. The Jedi are already extinct and Palpatine has already won. Our heroes are fighting a losing battle with overwhelming odds against an invincible foe. This always makes for an interesting story right off the bat.

In my mind, this is what makes the OT a fair bit more compelling from a narrative standpoint.

In the PT, you don't have this immediate sense of doom. The Jedi are all-powerful, the Republic is only beginning to crumble and Palatine is slinking around in the dark. That's why the first film is call The Phantom Menace, not The In-Your-Face-Kicking-Your-Butt Menace. The threat is far more subtle and everything unfolds slowly.

Hence, less sense of urgency.

Imagine if they did a PT to The Matrix, where it started with the creation of the robots and the Matrix itself. Everything starts out fine and gradually a sinister robot causes the destruction of the human race while the main characters try to foil the robots but fail.

Doesn't sound as cool or interesting an idea, does it?

Moreover, your OT trilogy hero is the perfect hero: the one that succeeds. Luke eventually DOES return his father from darkness and defeat the Emperor. He DOES make the right choices at the end.

Your PT trilogy hero is the tragic hero: the one that fails. Anakin eventually does fail in everything he tries and dooms the entire galaxy to darkness. And I believe modern movie audiences DO NOT like tragic heroes.

So from a storytelling standpoint, you could say the OT has some inherent advantages over the PT.

BUT the whole point of the PT is NOT to try and recreate the same story of the OT. It's to show how everyone gets to where they were in the OT storyline. It's the first part of a longer, single story and should be thought of that way, NOT as a stand alone peice of work.

EDIT: Re: DVD verions.

Sorry, my DVDs f-n rock. You guys can worship the past if you want, but the DVD versions of the films are superior.

EDIT2: Looks like I completely missed another post of Anderton's before I replied here. I'll get to that in a later post.


M

 

[Swift]

The restoration work done for the DVD release is mindblowingly good. The image and sound quality are up to par with anything released in the last 5 years.

And with the one exception of the Han/Greedo scene, the changes for the DVD versions don't bother me a single bit. Therefore all is (mostly) well in my Star Wars universe.

Well, I just think they could've left out all the animals and junk that didn't need to be there. Like the Banthas in the desert on Tatooine before Luke tore up Jabba, that made sense. But to have all kinds of beasts distracting you in the space station was just there because Lucas was bored or something. Oh, I totally agree with the Jabba scene in Episode IV. What a travesty that was. Jabba certainly put on a lot of weight between the two movies.

Imagine if they did a PT to The Matrix, where it started with the creation of the robots and the Matrix itself. Everything starts out fine and gradually a sinister robot causes the destruction of the human race while the main characters try to foil the robots but fail.

Doesn't sound as cool or interesting an idea, does it?

M

They did make that for the matrix. It was part of the animatrix and the most boring sections of the DVD. So yes, I agree with what you're saying on that point.

 

[Anderton Prime]

Exactly, Swift. The prequel story to Star Wars should have been a book, or at best an animated cartoon. Then I wouldn't have to argue over this.

hehe... It pays off to be old skool sometimes - Laserdisc - 8 Disc Box edition

LASERDISC?! What did that cost you, about $300?

 

[Flerbizky]

Exactly, Swift. The prequel story to Star Wars should have been a book, or at best an animated cartoon. Then I wouldn't have to argue over this.



LASERDISC?! What did that cost you, about $300?

The Player or the box set ....

I think, if memory serves me correct, that I paid around US$ 250 for the box set... Used but in like new condition.. Not a single scratch on any of the discs !...

 

[Anderton Prime]

I was asking about the price of the discs. That's the reason I didn't buy a laserdisc player, because the technology was considered "old" and because something new had just arrived at stores when I went shopping...it was called a DVD player. So I let the salesman finagle me into buying the very first Toshiba DVD player ever, for $600. This was in 1996 or 1997, whenever DVD hit the market. There were only four movies committed to DVD at that time:

In the Line of Fire
Fly Away Home
Jumanji
Legends of the Fall

I bought In the Line of Fire, so I would have something to play on the machine when friends came to see it. It was pretty harrowing until they released the next wave of 8 movies, which included Total Recall, so I knew everything would be okay then.