FITT-Hot Hatch Tuning Challenge - Final Results are in!

[DolHaus]

@DolHaus Do you have any ideas or solutions? Seems to be that more than 1 car needs to be used for testing. With similar power upgrades on each different car? Would that not blur the results and keep tunes as they were intended?

Forgive me if that 1st part didn't sound right, just a question not a shot.

I'm not entirely sure on what the problem is? Is there a group with stock/fixed gearing?
If its a case of the increased revs gained by power parts screwing up the stock gear ratios then I would suggest testing the cars that don't have any engine parameter changes first (Engine Tuning 1/2/3, ECU upgrade and Exhaust all change the rev limit). Maybe try resetting the trans once parts are applied/removed? I'm not sure what issue we're trying to solve here?

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Actually, I'm trying to figure out if there is an issue. The more I think about it, added different power upgrades should, in theory, change the powerband, thus changing redline. So either there is no problem just that some tuners found something better, or.....somehow switching between tuning sheets changes the final drive? Getting confused

 

[DolHaus]

My only thought would be that if the car has a fixed gearing setup (Stock/6/5 speed close ratio as opposed to Full Custom) it has defined speeds in each gear.

Lets say 1st gear redlines at 8000 rpm at a speed of 55mph

You then change the RPM parameters by fitting certain parts but the gearing still wants to keep the same MPH range

So now we have 1st gear redlining at 9000 rpm at the same speed of 55mph

This might be why there are changes perhaps? The gearing self adjusts to keep the MPH figures the same whereas it should just raise the top speed because of the extra RPM available. Whether this is a positive or negative thing would depend on the power/torque curve of the car in question.

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

Basically the more RPM boosting tune you've done, the better. To accelerate out of slow hairpin in 2nd gear, would you like your engine to bog down to low as 2000rpm or would you rather have 2500rpm?

A. 165hp Stock engine max red line at 7000rpm in 2nd gear, 92kph.
B. 165hp with higher max RPM engine max red line at 8000rpm in 2nd gear, 92kph.

The fixed gearbox tries to set each gear's max speed to same regardless of engine's revolution limit. So the latter would be revving higher at any given speed.

edit: DolHaus you just beat me to it.lol

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

To make the testing fairer, each time you modified the engine to tuner's intention, exit out the setup menu, re-enter the setup menu, reset the transmission, exit out and re-enter the setup to see to it the transmission looks valid.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

Does that correct the issue?

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

Does that correct the issue?

It seems so, if you don't do it in the right order you might inadvertently find your fixed-6speed somewhat whacky modified, the one with close 1-5 but 6th looong way out.lol The bug I used to see in GT5. So be careful.

edit: to illustrate clearly what I'm on about, do the following.

1. Apply all max rpm boosting tunes - stage 3 engine, CPU, racing exhaust, sports cat.
2. Buy 6speed fixed GB. Look at the graph and visually memorise the best you can.
3. Undo all the changes - set engine to stock, set standard GB.
4. Exit and re-enter the setup menu.
5. Set to 6speed fixed GB.
6. Reapply all the max rpm boosting tune.
7. Exit and re-enter the setup menu.
8. Look at the transmission graph and tell me what you think.

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

It seems so, if you don't do it in the right order you might inadvertently find your fixed-6speed somewhat whacky modified, the one with close 1-5 but 6th looong way out.lol The bug I used to see in GT5. So be careful.

Ok, thanks for the heads up and trying to figure this out. I will put a note out to testers later.

 

[backnfourth]

This transmission stuff is all very confusing. I tried messing around adding and subtracting parts, switching sheets, exiting and re entering menus. I can't figure out what is going on or what is having an effect on the graph and/or gear ratios. My personal solution (I know this isn't ideal for testers) is since there are 9 spec MiTo tunes, I will buy a fleet of 9 MiTo's and set them all up in the same order in regards to performance parts and transmissions. Additionally no one will have the obvious advantage of having a red MiTo. You all will get matte paint and 1 inch up gold ADVAN RGII rims

 

[Bowtie-muscle]

@backnfourth @biffa3 @Motor City Hami @jules283 and anyone else interested in testing MiTo Spec: in the interest of fairness and in an effort to avoid complications. It has been noted that an issue may arise while building tunes on multiple tuning sheets and switching back and forth, that there may be a concern with gearing. To avoid confusion or issues, please follow the following instructions:

To make the testing fairer, each time you modified the engine to tuner's intention, exit out the setup menu, re-enter the setup menu, reset the transmission, exit out and re-enter the setup to see to it the transmission looks valid.

Thank you for the inconvenience and I understand this may make things tedious.

Or you could follow the option @backnfourth has suggested above.

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

@Bowtie-muscle

I might add that use only the sheet A, leave B & C blank to further simplify and make each tunes more transparent. Just my 2 cents.

 

[jules283]

@backnfourth @biffa3 @Motor City Hami @jules283 and anyone else interested in testing MiTo Spec: in the interest of fairness and in an effort to avoid complications. It has been noted that an issue may arise while building tunes on multiple tuning sheets and switching back and forth, that there may be a concern with gearing. To avoid confusion or issues, please follow the following instructions:



Thank you for the inconvenience and I understand this may make things tedious.

Or you could follow the option @backnfourth has suggested above.

No problem. It's the way I test anyway as I know about the changing gear ratios thing.

 

[Bobby Steel]

1)Apply power parts / sets redline

2)Adjust tune / it auto adjust to red line set when a change is made

3) test set up

What's the problem?

 

[Motor City Hami]

Simple answer is Redline. Any power mods that change rev limit will alter gearing IF you make a change.

Think about it max speed and red line go together. To hit same "max speed" with different red line takes different gears.

This is why you need to apply all upgrades before setting in the settings.

Sorry Bobby. That makes very little sense. So if I took my street car and added an ECU upgrade, my transmission ratios would change? The actual numbers of the individual gear ratios should not change by adding power to a car. PD got the programming wrong yet again.

 

[Bobby Steel]

Sorry Bobby. That makes very little sense. So if I took my street car and added an ECU upgrade, my transmission ratios would change? The actual numbers of the individual gear ratios should not change by adding power to a car. PD got the programming wrong yet again.

No gearing stays but your top speed in each gear at rev limit will change if the ECU is set to hit a higher rev limiter. More rpm same gearing equals more speed.

In the game the gearing won't change until you make an adjustment, when you do the adjustment is then based on new rev limit.

But in game as in real life JUST raise the rev limit and your top speed in each gear goes up.

 

[Motor City Hami]

No gearing stays but your top speed in each gear at rev limit will change if the ECU is set to hit a higher rev limiter. More rpm same gearing equals more speed.

In the game the gearing won't change until you make an adjustment, when you do the adjustment is then based on new rev limit.

But in game as in real life JUST raise the rev limit and your top speed in each gear goes up.

Higher rev limiter should only mean the ability to shift later in each gear. It should not change the actual values. GT6 changes the actual values. I have seen them change without ever touching the gear box. Change from no engine tuning to Engine tuning stage 3 and I have seen some very random changes to the gearbox. Like 4th gear only changing.

I am particular about my gearbox settings. You won't find one posted tune from me where the last number in each gear is not a 5 or a zero. I want easy to type in values. Plus, this makes it really easy to see a ghost change like has been mentioned in this forum. When I see 4th gear change from 1.550 to 1.316, it is easy to spot.

 

[Bobby Steel]

Higher rev limit means a higher speed at rev limit with the same gearing, just like at 6000rpm your going faster than at 5500rpm in the same gear, When your shifting later, it's at a higher speed

So the "Max Speed" is altered when you readjust gears after changing redline. In game the gearing while individually set is still running on a preset gear range from "max speed" that's what's changing things in the game.

Make sense now?

 

[Bobby Steel]

Okay, I hope what I've said is clear to you now, and makes sense. I'm not sure how it didn't, I've not spoken on gears changing without touching the transmission. Not the same thing.

Gears changing without readjusting gears is different, I've not seen any changes to my gearing with swapping parts at all unless I touch the gears after.

I'm rather precise on my gearing, and I've had no issues when adding or removing parts unless I click on something in the transmission tab.

As I look at the car settings page in an Aventador, I'm adding and removing parts but nothings changing in my gearbox.

I would need an example. A set up where removing or adding a particular part changes gears without me clicking on MS/any gear/FDG to initiate the change.

 

[DaBomm4]

This is the test I did to show what is going on that @JujiroMatsuda is saying. I did this test with the car I was in when I logged into the game, the same rules apply for all cars with the 5/6 speed transmissions though. The HP is included for proof of power modifications.

The first image is no power modifications with the six-speed transmission.

This second picture is with most modifications on WITHOUT resetting the transmission.

The third picture is the same power mods but AFTER resetting the transmission.

The result of my test, when you are using non-customizable transmissions and you changes power mods, you have to should reset the transmission also.

Edit: For all FITT Challenges that require non-customizable transmissions, resetting the transmission after installing power mods should now be required by testers in my opinion.

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

This is the test I did to show what is going on that @JujiroMatsuda is saying. I did this test with the car I was in when I logged into the game, the same rules apply for all cars with the 5/6 speed transmissions though. The HP is included for proof of power modifications.

The first image is no power modifications with the six-speed transmission.
View attachment 145493

This second picture is with most modifications on WITHOUT resetting the transmission.
View attachment 145494

The third picture is the same power mods but AFTER resetting the transmission.
View attachment 145495

The result of my test, when you are using non-customizable transmissions and you changes power mods, you have to should reset the transmission also.

Edit: For all FITT Challenges that require non-customizable transmissions, resetting the transmission after installing power mods should now be required by testers in my opinion.

Wow, even the value of each gear is changed, I guess I was wrong in an unfavorable way for PD.lol

I took for granted that the ratio for fixed GB surely wouldn't be affected from modified power mod like customisable GB would but my mistrust towards this game led me to test it and discovered the flaw.

Oh well, where is the face icon for palm faced?lol

 

[DaBomm4]

Wow, even the value of each gear is changed, I guess I was wrong in an unfavorable way for PD.lol

I took for granted that the ratio for fixed GB surely wouldn't be affected from modified power mod like customisable GB would but my mistrust towards this game led me to test it and discovered the flaw.

Oh well, where is the face icon for palm faced?lol

I thought so too until I did this test. I didn't test by rpm change though. Amazing what 5 minutes can show. Lol

 

[Woodski_427]

It doesn't seem unreasonable that they use an algorithm to set the gears based on power and maybe other variables, rather than a fixed database of ratios for each car.

The big problem IMO is the way the tuning tabs aren't independent, and get contaminated with the engine and weight reduction staging from other tabs. Presumably a hangover from GT5.

Edit: and the lack of documentation from PD of course.

 

[DigitalBaka]

@DaBomm4 Thanks for the visuals, that really helps me see what you guys are saying while I'm not in front of the console.

Now that I see what is going on it makes sense. Redline increases, speed at redline increases given the same gearing, that's a given. Since PD's trans is set to a certain speed (224 in this case) it makes sense that the ratios would change to keep that speed. The problem I have is that it isn't done on the fly instead of when switching back and forth, which can't really be that hard to code.

Bug or poor coding, I think this is definitely something we should be publicizing in the various guides and discussions. People have a hard enough time setting gear ratios, perhaps this is why. The recommendation that trans always be installed and/or set last should go a long way to things being more consistent across every tune.

 

[DaBomm4]

@DaBomm4 Thanks for the visuals, that really helps me see what you guys are saying while I'm not in front of the console.

Now that I see what is going on it makes sense. Redline increases, speed at redline increases given the same gearing, that's a given. Since PD's trans is set to a certain speed (224 in this case) it makes sense that the ratios would change to keep that speed. The problem I have is that it isn't done on the fly instead of when switching back and forth, which can't really be that hard to code.

Bug or poor coding, I think this is definitely something we should be publicizing in the various guides and discussions. People have a hard enough time setting gear ratios, perhaps this is why. The recommendation that trans always be installed and/or set last should go a long way to things being more consistent across every tune.

I agree, I like things when I can see it too, and it shows a lot in this case.

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

I would've posted the photos if I had my camera I happen to lent it out to a friend of mine YESTERDAY!lol One bloody photo speaks better than my wall of txt, I know. Glad my point been finally got across.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Okay, I hope what I've said is clear to you now, and makes sense. I'm not sure how it didn't,

If you are finished talking down to me Bobby, you may find time to read @DaBomm4 post.

This is the test I did to show what is going on that @JujiroMatsuda is saying. I did this test with the car I was in when I logged into the game, the same rules apply for all cars with the 5/6 speed transmissions though. The HP is included for proof of power modifications.

The first image is no power modifications with the six-speed transmission.
View attachment 145493

This second picture is with most modifications on WITHOUT resetting the transmission.
View attachment 145494

The third picture is the same power mods but AFTER resetting the transmission.
View attachment 145495

The result of my test, when you are using non-customizable transmissions and you changes power mods, you have to should reset the transmission also.

Edit: For all FITT Challenges that require non-customizable transmissions, resetting the transmission after installing power mods should now be required by testers in my opinion.

 

[Bobby Steel]

Not talking down but at the same level. As I made no sense to you chin up, you made no sense to me.

It's the same thing

The gears on the 6speed are set based on the redline from power parts installed when you add the gearbox.

Change red line and gears will be different to hit the same top speed. If you remove the 6spd when reapplied it will use the new redline to calculate top speed.

This is a GOOD THING

This can be used to get more top speed out of the 6spd. Shhhhhh

Install the 6spd before you add any performance parts that raise the red line and it will have faster gearing vs if you instal it after.

Maybe tuners should take that into consideration and instruct people to either set the 6spd before installing all power parts, after installing them OR part way, example add ECU then 6spd and after add the rest of the power upgrades.

If the 6spd is the last thing added it will have the slowest top speed. Where adding it before raising redline will add all the speed from the redline increase above the fixed max speed setting.


I still don't see the ghost changing gears Motor City is talking about.

 

[killerjimbag]

Higher rev limiter should only mean the ability to shift later in each gear. It should not change the actual values. GT6 changes the actual values. I have seen them change without ever touching the gear box. Change from no engine tuning to Engine tuning stage 3 and I have seen some very random changes to the gearbox. Like 4th gear only changing.

I am particular about my gearbox settings. You won't find one posted tune from me where the last number in each gear is not a 5 or a zero. I want easy to type in values. Plus, this makes it really easy to see a ghost change like has been mentioned in this forum. When I see 4th gear change from 1.550 to 1.316, it is easy to spot.

100 % correct Hami. I also always have my last gear's at 5 or 0. It does change the values when switching.

 

[JujiroMatsuda]

Not talking down but at the same level. As I made no sense to you chin up, you made no sense to me.

It's the same thing

The gears on the 6speed are set based on the redline from power parts installed when you add the gearbox.

Change red line and gears will be different to hit the same top speed. If you remove add the 6spd when reapplied it will use the new redline to calculate top speed.

This is a GOOD THING

This can be used to get more top speed out of the 6spd. Shhhhhh

Install the 6spd before you add any performance parts that raise the red line and it will have faster gearing vs if you instal it after.

Maybe tuners should take that into consideration and instruct people to either set the 6spd before installing all power parts, after installing them OR part way, example add ECU then 6spd and after add the rest of the power upgrades.

If the 6spd is the last thing added it will have the slowest top speed. Where adding it before raising redline will add all the speed from the redline increase above the fixed max speed setting.

Yeah we all know that but in this case we want the opposite, the shorter gearing. The car barely gets up to 6th speed on main straight. Before that straight there is this mid-fast right hander that's so crucial for getting it right to set a faster lap time. I'd like it to stay on 4th gear to take that corner, I want to avoid having to use 3rd gear only for a little bit and upshift. The car has stock clutch and is turbo-charged. The unnecessary shifting costs you time. So shorter gearing enables me to use 4th gear in usuable power band on that corner, and it can be achieved with reseted transmission that gives me slightly shorter ratio.

 

[DigitalBaka]

I have seen numbers change on me before, though usually in the suspension. Maybe not the same thing @Motor City Hami is talking about.

If you just randomly swing the sliders over without being precise and stop you'll end up at x value. If you go out of the tuning screen and come back the value will sometimes change a point or two. I have seen this with toe, camber and spring rate so I don't discount that it happens in the transmission and probably aero and power limiter as well. Anywhere there's a large range of values I would guess could have this happen.