FITT - Moving on to GT6!

[tris_73]

Plus the price of PSN cards doesn't change according to currency. It changes based much more on where you live than what your currency is worth.
Just ask the Aussies.

Yep. It's what I like to think of as the 'you live in the best country on earth tax'.

 

[DigitalBaka]

Yep. It's what I like to think of as the 'you live in the best country on earth that used to be a prison colony tax'.

Fixed. I kid, I kid. I actually do have some family down in....somewhere near Sydney I think and when I can afford it I mean to find an excuse to go visit. Need to drive some of those wild cars you have down there! If they ever brought the Maloo up here my wife would have to find a very compelling reason why I shouldn't buy one. I already want a GTO/Monaro/whatever else they call it.

I guess when it comes down to it, if a host wants to chip in some gift cards or such that will be on their judgement. I would just caution to have a good way to determine who is going to get them beforehand that will stand up to scrutiny. People don't care as much if they get beat out for a pixel car but when there is some real money value...

On the schedule, I will say then that the one we have up now can be the official schedule. It is already up on the Google calendar and I am adding some things to the Facebook page and cross posting to Twitter as well. Harvey, if you're still with us somewhere you can go ahead and post it to the coming events post and maybe change the title of the thread so people will know there is a schedule in place...if they bother to look at the sticky. And see if you can add something about the social pages as well.

 

[Motor City Hami]

Here is the scoring system that I would like to use for my competition Rally & Street Challenge. It is a bit complicated, but I think it will keep things close, reward tuners for being almost as fast as the fastest tune and eliminate the need for round twos. I also think that there will be a nice balance between fastest tune and driver's choice. I will also attempt to give the older cars a chance by awarding a bonus point just for selecting them. You will see in the details that driver's choice, old car bonus and photo mode bonus points may be able to jump a tune two, three, four spots. I used real times from old FITT challenges for this sample scoring test run.

Goals:
• One round of testing
• Two groups A & B, all tuners will test the opposite group
• Lap time points based on average lap time, not finishing position
• Looking for a balance between lap time and driver’s choice
• Offer bonus points to even out older year cars

Total Possible Points
• 100 points Rally Dirt Track
• 100 points Street Tarmac Track
• 3 bonus points for driver’s choice
• 1 point photo mode
• 1 point old car bonus
• Total available points 205

Scoring (if 20 tuners/testers):
Group A - ten tunes, ten testers
• Testers run five to ten laps with each tune and record the fastest lap time achieved
• Calculate average lap time for each tune across the ten testers
Group B
Ten tunes - ten tunes, ten testers
• Testers run five to ten laps with each tune and record the fastest lap time achieved
• Calculate average lap time for each tune across the ten testers
Scoring calculation
• Fastest average lap time from the 20 tunes is awarded 100 points
• All other tunes are scored based on how close the average lap time is to the fastest
Calculation: fast lap time (1:21.668) / non-fastest tunes (123.778) = 98.3 points
See attached PDF for full scoring scenario

Issues:
The only real issue that I can see with the scoring system would be if all of the fastest test drivers were in one group. To help avoid this, I will ask all testers to send me a PM with their assessment of their driving skills on a five point scale. I will then seed the drivers with an as equal as possible between groups A&B.
1. I can hang with the GT Academy elite
2. My online winner percentage is much higher than my losing percentage
3. Win some, lose some
4. I am kind of a rookie
5. Gold license tests… I need some help just to bronze them

 

[Motor City Hami]

I guess when it comes down to it, if a host wants to chip in some gift cards or such that will be on their judgement. I would just caution to have a good way to determine who is going to get them beforehand that will stand up to scrutiny. People don't care as much if they get beat out for a pixel car but when there is some real money value...

If I did the tester gift cards it would be done purely on tuner vote for the highest quality feedback.

 

[DigitalBaka]

Interesting system. Curious to see how it will play out.

Perhaps in lieu of or addition to asking for the self-assessment from the drivers you could ask what their best time is in a specific event, such as the special events or a license test where the cars are the same with no tuning relevance. Since this event has a rally influence perhaps ask for a best time from a couple laps in the Loeb challenge. Need not be anything intense or long but if you can find something quick and standardized to use it may help get the distribution worked out. We could maintain a list if we plan to use the system going forward so that testers need not repeat every time but that may be getting a bit too WRS for something that should be a casual affair.

Just a brain dump on my part.

 

[dr_slump]

So I should translate how much I might be willing to spend into multiple forms of currency so everyone knows exactly how much I'd be willing to spend?

Plus the price of PSN cards doesn't change according to currency. It changes based much more on where you live than what your currency is worth.
Just ask the Aussies.

No, that's not what I meant.

If it's no problem for you in the USA to buy cards in other currencies, then it will surely work. What I wanted to say is that, as example me (I don't expect that I'll ever win this ), I can't use Dollar PSN cards. Same with PSN cards in euro, or yen, or whatever else than CHF. They simply don't work.

 

[CSLACR]

No, that's not what I meant.

If it's no problem for you in the USA to buy cards in other currencies, then it will surely work. What I wanted to say is that, as example me (I don't expect that I'll ever win this ), I can't use Dollar PSN cards. Same with PSN cards in euro, or yen, or whatever else than CHF. They simply don't work.

Good point, they'd have to be purchased...somehow. I assume you could buy foreign PSN cards in the US, off the internet, but I don't know where, how, or how much it would cost.
I know Australia is expensive, so somewhere like there might cost a US buyer around 2-3X what it's actual usable value would be. (Meaning you'd spend $30 to give a prize that would only cost you $10 on the PSN).

It's still up to the hosts, (assuming it is possible), but it's certainly something to think about.
GTP memberships are easier, and maybe cheaper, but for those already premium there is no prize that way.

 

[Ronald6]

Is it possible to transfer money on paypal?

 

[CSLACR]

This all seems like too much work to get people to do something they must do to make these shootouts even possible, if I'm perfectly honest.
If people want shootouts, they need to be testers sometimes. :shrug:

 

[VTiRoj]

Is it possible to transfer money on paypal?

Yes. Be sure to mark it as a gift or else PayPal will take some money off you for the transaction fee.

 

[Ronald6]

Yes. Be sure to mark it as a gift or else PayPal will take some money off you for the transaction fee.

Excellent.
I'll probably use that method for my Caterham Shootout. Lets see how that goes.

 

[krenkme]

If I'm honest, I will never host another shootout if this is the path we are headed. (I was not planing another anyways, because of my last.)

But if we are going to turn shootouts into who has the biggest wallet to give prizes, I'm out... I tune for FUN (I know some hate me saying that, but it's true), and I test whenever I can, that is also for fun. This is a game, but if we are putting money up, and demands for testing then it stops being fun, and is no longer a game.

I too want a better turn out from testers, but maybe it just might be the complexity and length of the shootouts that are keeping the turnout down.

Take a look at my shootout, or the roadster shootout for example. Simple, fun, quick, and a good turn out for testers.

Again, just my two ¢

 

[Ronald6]

The only reason I need to "give out prizes" is so that those who do not have Spa can get it to tune for round two.

Like Krenkme, I also hope these shootouts don't go the path of real $$$ prizes.

Excepting premium membership and DLC as needed.

 

[Motor City Hami]

But if we are going to turn shootouts into who has the biggest wallet to give prizes, I'm out... I tune for FUN (I know some hate me saying that, but it's true), and I test whenever I can, that is also for fun. This is a game, but if we are putting money up, and demands for testing then it stops being fun, and is no longer a game.

This was bouncing around in my head as an issue which is why I posed the question to the FITT community. So, no monetary rewards for testing because it is a slippery slope. I agree.

But, I do think that the old way of doing these shootouts is dead. We have made it far too time consuming for the testers and therefore have seen the tester turnouts disappear. I tested for the Cote D'Azur classic car shootout and that was a nine hour investment of time. Then I tested the JGTC with two different sets of cars and that was alot. I didn't test for the Nurburgring because I am not a huge fan of that track nor did I have the time to do that much testing. Now, with all of the extra shootouts this summer, all begging for testers, we have spoiled a good thing.

In my opinion, it is time to try a different way. Tuners need to also test or we have no testers. If that means a tuner sits out a few, then it is what it is. If the shootout is cool enough, with cars and tracks that the tuner is interested in, then testing will be a reasonable price to pay for tuner involvement. Maybe we break it down further and only require testing of 5 or 6 vehicles and seek volunteers to test more?

For my Rally/Street I want to minimize the amount of testing necessary yet still offer up a cool concept. I have picked two short tracks - one dirt for the Rally car and one tarmac for the street version. And, no second rounds.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

In my opinion, it is time to try a different way. Tuners need to also test or we have no testers.

How about an old GT4 thing?

Tuners are allowed (possibly make this a requirement instead?) to test all cars except their own, and drop the lowest score from everyone's averages.

If all tuners have to test all cars that aren't theirs, it works out about perfect... Just, it might drop tuner entrance levels a bit.

 

[CSLACR]

We have made it far too time consuming for the testers and therefore have seen the tester turnouts disappear.

Historically, if my memory serves me right, we haven't lost or gained testers, really. Some shootouts generate a bunch of testers, other make the testers say "meh".

We never had that many testers on any kind of regular basis, always more or less depending on the shootout.

Tuners are allowed (possibly make this a requirement instead?) to test all cars except their own, and drop the lowest score from everyone's averages.

This would punish the tuners that are faster drivers, being unable to drive their own car while running the faster laps in everyone else's.
Maybe dropping the fastest time from each car could fix that though...

 

[Motor City Hami]

For seading the testers into the groups, which go people prefer?

Option A - everyone sends me a PM with their driving rank based on this scale
1. I can hang with the GT Academy elite
2. My online winner percentage is much higher than my losing percentage
3. Win some, lose some
4. I am kind of a rookie
5. Gold license tests… I need some help just to bronze them

or

Option B - All testers buy a new Honda Civic Type R '08, do an oil change and add sport hard tires. Then, go to the tarmac track we will be using and PM me their lap time. Open to other suggestions here. Just looking for a tighter way to rank testers than the self reported method in option A.

 

[Onboy123]

Hmm…MCH, one thing, though I'm not sure if it's major enough to be taken into consideration, would it not make more sense to pick the car based on the shootout itself or something along those lines? (i.e FF shootout, pick a FF within regulations as the fixed car, 500PP shootout, use a stock E92 M3/C63 AMG or something at 500PP-ish when stock)

I just think that this would be "better" since not everyone is happy with an FF and vice-versa, so using that car as the fixed point for which testers will be ranked by in shootouts from now on might not be entirely fair.

 

[nomis3613]

Option B is a lot more reliable than option A. To reduce tester effort, perhaps said Civic could be placed on sharing?

EDIT: also, I completely agree with Onboy ^

 

[VTiRoj]

Why not just pick a car from arcade mode and run a time trial from there? No breaking in required, just pick the car and the tyres and off you go. Every drivetrain is represented so Onboy's idea can work too.

FF - Volvo C30
FR - BMW M3
4WD - Subaru Impreza
MR - McLaren MP4
RR - Fiat 500

Gran Turismo 5 Arcade Car List

 

[CyKosis1973]

/\ /\ /\

That...

{Cy}

 

[Onboy123]

Why not just pick a car from arcade mode and run a time trial from there? No breaking in required, just pick the car and the tyres and off you go. Every drivetrain is represented so Onboy's idea can work too.

FF - Volvo C30
FR - BMW M3
4WD - Subaru Impreza
MR - McLaren MP4
RR - Fiat 500

Gran Turismo 5 Arcade Car List

Hmm…Fiat 500 would require a bit of change to the "completely stock" idea, wouldn't it? I'm not sure our testers would have the patience for lapping in that thing.

And MP4…please no. I've been traumatised by it after a drive in my 800+hp one…so ANYTHING BUT THAT. PLEASE. I BEG YOU. A 458 OR ANYTHING BUT A MP4. *traumatic screaming*

 

[USARMYCOMBATVET]

*Poof*

 

[VTiRoj]

Hmm…Fiat 500 would require a bit of change to the "completely stock" idea, wouldn't it? I'm not sure our testers would have the patience for lapping in that thing.

And MP4…please no. I've been traumatised by it after a drive in my 800+hp one…so ANYTHING BUT THAT. PLEASE. I BEG YOU. A 458 OR ANYTHING BUT A MP4. *traumatic screaming*

If a tester doesn't have the patience for a Fiat 500, then they probably don't have the patience to be a tester in the first place. It's a hidden test within a test. Testception.

There's no 458 in arcade mode, hence why I chose the MP4.

 

[Onboy123]

If a tester doesn't have the patience for a Fiat 500, then they probably don't have the patience to be a tester in the first place. It's a hidden test within a test. Testception.

There's no 458 in arcade mode, hence why I chose the MP4.

I see, I see. Clever. Tch, lucky coincidence.

Then an Elise, a Tesla, ANYTHING BUT THAT!

 

[VTiRoj]

I see, I see. Clever. Tch, lucky coincidence.

Then an Elise, a Tesla, ANYTHING BUT THAT!

An Elise is fine.

Besides I'm not saying "these car the cars you must use, all hail Emperor Roj of the 5th reich!" I'm just saying there's a car for every drivetrain.

 

[USARMYCOMBATVET]

An Elise is fine.

Besides I'm not saying "these car the cars you must use, all hail Emperor Roj of the 5th reich!" I'm just saying there's a car for every drivetrain.

What must we do next, my Fuhrer? Just kidding. You made me lol.

 

[CSLACR]

I don't have the patience to hot lap a Fiat 500. Nor should that matter.

If you're making an all-inclusive time trial to rank drivers, something we can glance at for future shootouts as reference, it's best to pick a standard FR, something with close to 50/50 balance and enough speed to get skilled drivers into trouble.
It also has to be a track with enough corners to trip up on.

Of course for all this there's already a WRS qualifier that some drivers have already run, cutting the workload down.

But if it's just for this shootout, it should be a car at these shootout specs, on these(one of) shootout tracks. The more difficult track.

 

[Motor City Hami]

I was thinking about getting a ranking for just this shootout.

Using arcade mode time trials is a great idea. The most difficult track will be the dirt track. There are three rally cars in Arcade mode, Citroen C4 WRC, Ford Focus RS WRC and the Suzuki SX4 WRC. I could pick one for our use and all testers would submit a time on the shootout dirt track.

The other option is to use a 4WD, in the spirit of rally cars, on the shootout tarmac track. The Impreza, Evo or Delta HF would be closest to what we will use for the competition. I think our testers will be more consistent on tarmac because most of our time is spend there vs. dirt. The dirt times could be deceiving especially since the Rally cars don't handle great without tuning. At least some of the street cars are driveable with some understeer.

 

[Ronald6]

I think our testers will be more consistent on tarmac because most of our time is spend there vs. dirt. .

If the testers/drivers can't handle dirt, a completely different driving style, then it should be highlighted.

It's better to know their skill for all relevant driving styles before testing groups are chosen.