Formula 1 Pirelli Gran Premio d'Italia 2024Formula 1

[Grayfox]

What happens after the next race?
Does KMag still have 12 points or are they wiped even though not expired.

 

[TumeK5]

What happens after the next race?
Does KMag still have 12 points

Pretty sure how it works is his penalty points for Singapore are reset to 0.

Edit: and after doing some reading, it's like this:

Every penalty point awarding incident has an expiry date on its own; this means after 12 months have passed since the incident in question, the points awarded from that expire instead.

This then answers my earlier question about the winter break being counted in the 12 months: it doesn't matter.

 

[Famine]

I'm not really sure what the McLaren argument is here: everyone's right.

McLaren is focused on the Constructors' title. This is what brings the money in to the team. "Papaya Rules" clearly mean "sure, race, but the team comes first".

Both drivers appear to be on-message here, and while the team might have a gripe at Piastri's pass holding up Norris and allowing Leclerc past - ultimately resulting in the race win for Leclerc (although not the only factor in doing so) - it's on Norris and his shoddy starting. I don't think either of them have very good starts generally - perhaps the McLaren is harder to launch and Norris is struggling more with it - but Norris can't be passed by his team-mate if he's not in a position to be passed by his team-mate.

Yes, McLaren probably should have swapped the drivers too in order to push Norris's own title prospects (as it is, he qualified first and his main rival qualified seventh, but the points swing was just 7pt to Norris as it would have been with a 1-2 between him and his main rival) but it's not a zero-risk prospect at all.

They were likely also still thinking until quite late on that Piastri could have caught up with Leclerc or benefitted from a late Ferrari oopsie (not unusual) and could still have made it happen on the last lap, but yes going off-line on a 52-lap old circuit is not without potential problems from all the crap that accumulates over there - and while F1 cars do seem to be more reliable than ever these days, all the systems designed to run high-stress for 90 minutes can go pop if they're asked to back off for a few seconds and then come back on maximum again. It's part of why pit stops are the most troublesome times for F1 cars.

McLaren's gone for what's best for the team, not what's best for one of its drivers. I think it suspects that there's more chances for Norris to significantly gap Verstappen in the last few races given that Red Bull is now far enough back that its consultant hotelier who isn't one of two RBR directors at all honest is complaining about the front wings on the McLaren and Mercedes.


Norris himself says he's not been driving like a champion, and if he doesn't start thinking he does deserve it soon he's going to end up missing out because that crap gets into your head.

 

[ElectricNaz]

And yet those are all things the team will be thinking of when making these calculations. Overtakes are calculated risks, that happen in typically the same areas of the track every time (making those areas cleaner and less debris/risk etc). Neither of you will like it but that is reality, all of those factors will be weighed up, IF, they were to think about doing it.

So strange.

50/100m before the start line, the whole car could explode and at that speed would still win the race. Maybe the driver might be blown to smithereens but they would still win

@Famine has a purple font that makes me really feel like I've been told off. Sorry boss I'll get back to my desk and work harder, sorry please don't hit me with that ruler!

 

[GlamFM]

I'm not really sure what the McLaren argument is here: everyone's right.

McLaren is focused on the Constructors' title. This is what brings the money in to the team. "Papaya Rules" clearly mean "sure, race, but the team comes first".

Both drivers appear to be on-message here, and while the team might have a gripe at Piastri's pass holding up Norris and allowing Leclerc past - ultimately resulting in the race win for Leclerc (although not the only factor in doing so) - it's on Norris and his shoddy starting. I don't think either of them have very good starts generally - perhaps the McLaren is harder to launch and Norris is struggling more with it - but Norris can't be passed by his team-mate if he's not in a position to be passed by his team-mate.

Yes, McLaren probably should have swapped the drivers too in order to push Norris's own title prospects (as it is, he qualified first and his main rival qualified seventh, but the points swing was just 7pt to Norris as it would have been with a 1-2 between him and his main rival) but it's not a zero-risk prospect at all.

They were likely also still thinking until quite late on that Piastri could have caught up with Leclerc or benefitted from a late Ferrari oopsie (not unusual) and could still have made it happen on the last lap, but yes going off-line on a 52-lap old circuit is not without potential problems from all the crap that accumulates over there - and while F1 cars do seem to be more reliable than ever these days, all the systems designed to run high-stress for 90 minutes can go pop if they're asked to back off for a few seconds and then come back on maximum again. It's part of why pit stops are the most troublesome times for F1 cars.

McLaren's gone for what's best for the team, not what's best for one of its drivers. I think it suspects that there's more chances for Norris to significantly gap Verstappen in the last few races given that Red Bull is now far enough back that its consultant hotelier who isn't one of two RBR directors at all honest is complaining about the front wings on the McLaren and Mercedes.


Norris himself says he's not been driving like a champion, and if he doesn't start thinking he does deserve it soon he's going to end up missing out because that crap gets into your head.

Basically. Though I absolutely disagree that a position swap is somehow risky business.

The real risk here is them losing their shot of winning the drivers title which, I insist, is the one people care about.

Never forget 2007.

 

[Grayfox]

sorry please don't hit me with that ruler!

 

[Famine]

Basically. Though I absolutely disagree that a position swap is somehow risky business.

There's quite a gap between "risky business" and "not a zero-risk prospect".

The real risk here is them losing their shot of winning the drivers title which, I insist, is the one people care about.

The viewing public care more about the WDC, but for the teams it's all about the WCC because it's a vital source of income. WDC is just a vanity, but of course they want a driver who can win it because it's rare (but not exceptionally so) that a team wins one without the other.

Although the exact numbers aren't public, there's about $10m difference between first and second in the WCC. In fact winning the WCC - while it comes with a wind tunnel testing time penalty now - probably covers a team's entire permitted costs for a season of about $140m. That means not having to rely on risky sponsors to make up the shortfall.

 

[GlamFM]

Yeah yeah. I know that. And I’ll say again that a position swap yields the exact same amount of points towards the WCC while also increasing their chances to win the WDC.

Whatever people think the risk of swapping positions on track is (still a real head scratcher for me) I assume most would agree it’s well worth it in this case.

That’s where team orders come into play.

It’s not like “team orders” is a new made up term. Team orders have always been part of the sport.
The only reason I can think of why McLaren don’t deploy team orders is contractual details with either one or both their drivers.

It remains baffling.

Anyway. I’m not really rooting for any driver. My favorite is probably Alex so I don’t really have a horse in this race.
I still find McLaren fumbling this infuriating to watch.

 

[Grayfox]

The real risk here is them losing their shot of winning the drivers title which, I insist, is the one people care about.

Dont know if you remember the fall out when Ferrari asked Barrichello to stop before the line for Micheal but it was not good for Ferrari.

Plus the team does not really care what people care about, the WDC does not bring in money to help pay staff, the WCC does
The WCC brings in prize money which leads to bonuses for the staff which in turn makes them want to do even better so they get more bonuses
It also makes more sponsors take note of the teams performance which leads to the possibility of more money.

 

[McLaren]

That’s perfectly fine if you just want to drive around and not win the championship.

If you do want to win it you HAVE to prioritize the driver who has:

A: a healthy lead over his teammate

and

B: an actual (slim) shot at winning the championship.

Yes, except Lando has to first put himself into such positions that allows the team to do so. That's very difficult when Lando's teammate is actually capable of winning a race himself which now requires Lando to be on his game, otherwise, Oscar will be getting priority in whichever race they're in if Oscar has a legitimate shot to win. Oscar sacrificing potential victories is not a good look for Lando; if both McLarens are competing for a race win, then it shows Lando actually has to race for to keep his title hopes alive.

Bringing up Red Bull does not really apply here. The times Checo has moved over has been when Max is clearly faster to begin with and Max is chasing down other cars ahead of Checo, & when they are allowed to race, Max has been above-and-beyond the faster driver. It's pretty equal footing at McLaren, though, so again, if Lando wants to compete for a title, he's going to have actually adapt & beat Oscar like any other opponent.

 

[Tired Tyres]

McLaren to consider team orders to aid Lando Norris title bid, as Max Verstappen calls his Red Bull "undriveable"

McLaren are to consider imposing team orders to help Lando Norris overhaul Max Verstappen, who says his Red Bull is "undriveable".

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Liquid]

In theory its a race ban, but the FIA dont want to be seen as bannning someone as it does not look good for the sport

A rubbish ethos to have. Rules are there to be adhered to. The notion that enforcing good standards makes you look "weak" is personally very annoying to me. It's completely antithetical and paradoxical to the truth - reinforcing good standards shows the class needed to compete with the self-proclaimed best drivers in the world.

 

[Grayfox]

Rules are there to be adhered to

This statement is lost on the FIA.
They punish one driver for breaking X rule one race but the next race when another breaks X rule they do not punish.

Heck they cant make their minds up on track limits.
One race, you go over any bit, penalty, next race, you can go off and get nothing.

 

[McLaren]

Unfortunately for KMag, while he & Gasly may feel a race ban is unfair b/c they believe their contact wasn't worthy of a penalty, he's not getting banned b/c of his driving here at Monza. He's getting banned because of his horrendous driving over other races. His antics at Miami alone, significantly put him in this position. Worse yet, he admitted that he was fine with what he did to incur those penalties. He only has himself to blame.

Race stewards in Miami imposed five penalty points on Magnussen's superlicence during the course of the event in Florida - doubling his existing total to 10.

Drivers face an automatic one-race suspension if they accrue 12 penalty points across a rolling 12-month period.

All the penalties were well deserved - no doubt about it. But I had to play the [team] game again.

"I started using these stupid tactics which I don't like doing, but at the end of the day I did my job as a team player and Nico scored his points because I got that gap for him so Lewis and Tsunoda couldn't catch him.

"Not the way I like to go racing at all, but it was what I had to do."

Kevin Magnussen runs risk of F1 race ban after penalty-filled Miami GP takes him to brink of limit

Haas driver Kevin Magnussen now has to navigate the final 18 races of the 2024 season without picking up two further penalty points on his superlicence; Stewards imposed five points on the Dane across Miamis Sprint weekend; F1 2024 continues at Imola on May 17-19

www.skysports.com

 

[Famine]

And I’ll say again that a position swap yields the exact same amount of points towards the WCC while also increasing their chances to win the WDC.

It does, but again it's not a risk-free thing to do - and they have to be aware of not only overhauling Red Bull but the fact Ferrari is also outperforming Red Bull now. Over the last four races, McLaren have scored 141, Ferrari 105, and Red Bull only 70.

Risking an 18pt swing (loss of 15pt for losing third, Ferrari gaining 3pt for Sainz's promotion from 4th to 3rd) or worse in order to swap the drivers for no benefit towards the team is not ideal.

I agree that they could have done it, but I also don't think it's a surprise that they didn't. It's also not a surprise they didn't do it at the finish line, given all the hubbub over Schumacher and Barrichello (Austria, 2002) - and to a lesser extent Bottas and Hamilton (Hungary, 2017) - which quite a lot of F1 fans will remember.


And you'll find me saying at the last time there was a Piastri/Norris swap kerfuffle that McLaren may regret not prioritising the lead championship driver. Piastri is of course not mathematically out of it (in fact I think only Logan Sargeant was until Monza), but at this point of the season they really need to pick one to prioritise where it's relevant and convenient without hindering the other.

 

[GlamFM]

Yes, except Lando has to first put himself into such positions that allows the team to do so. That's very difficult when Lando's teammate is actually capable of winning a race himself which now requires Lando to be on his game, otherwise, Oscar will be getting priority in whichever race they're in if Oscar has a legitimate shot to win. Oscar sacrificing potential victories is not a good look for Lando; if both McLarens are competing for a race win, then it shows Lando actually has to race for to keep his title hopes alive.

Bringing up Red Bull does not really apply here. The times Checo has moved over has been when Max is clearly faster to begin with and Max is chasing down other cars ahead of Checo, & when they are allowed to race, Max has been above-and-beyond the faster driver. It's pretty equal footing at McLaren, though, so again, if Lando wants to compete for a title, he's going to have actually adapt & beat Oscar like any other opponent.

If your argument is that Lando has to win on his own for his team to prioritize him you have to explain to me where exactly the prioritizing comes in.

Lando not only brought himself into the position he is in in the championship - he also had pole in Monza.

That’s where other teams with a shot at winning would have told Oscar not to attack Lando - especially not in such an aggressive way that not only brought Charles into the mix, but actually given how close it was in the end opened the door for Charles’s win. (And put Lando in P3 at the time)

Zak Brown said that he was not happy with the overtake after the race btw.

Had Oscar raced anybody but Lando in this situation this would most likely have been a crash.

McLaren won nothing yesterday, but lost a lot.

 

[MagpieRacer]

If your argument is that Lando has to win on his own for his team to prioritize him you have to explain to me where exactly the prioritizing comes in.

Lando not only brought himself into the position he is in in the championship - he also had pole in Monza.

That’s where other teams with a shot at winning would have told Oscar not to attack Lando - especially not in such an aggressive way that not only brought Charles into the mix, but actually given how close it was in the end opened the door for Charles’s win. (And put Lando in P3 at the time)

Zak Brown said that he was not happy with the overtake after the race btw.

Had Oscar raced anybody but Lando in this situation this would most likely have been a crash.

McLaren won nothing yesterday, but lost a lot.

No, the argument is that Lando isn't doing enough to be in a position where they can swap risk free or whatever, he didn't have the pace the pressure Oscar.

Whatever people think the risk of swapping positions on track is (still a real head scratcher for me) I assume most would agree it’s well worth it in this case.

It's not a headscratcher, both @Famine and myself have explained why it isn't just as simple as a team deciding to swap positions late on. It really isn't that much of a headscratcher.

 

[GlamFM]

No, the argument is that Lando isn't doing enough to be in a position where they can swap risk free or whatever, he didn't have the pace the pressure Oscar.

So what now? Does he have to pressure Oscar, or does he have to be in a position where they can safely swap?

Lando came in 3.5 seconds behind Oscar with no cars in between. Great position to swap if you ask me.

Edit - you know, kinda exactly like they did in Hungary when Lando pulled a 6 second gap on Oscar and they still made them swap.

Still an absolute MIRACLE to me that Londos car didn't explode or something when he went off line. Super risky.

 

[MagpieRacer]

So what now? Does he have to pressure Oscar, or does he have to be in a position where they can safely swap?

Lando came in 3.5 seconds behind Oscar with no cars in between. Great position to swap if you ask me.

Edit - you know, kinda exactly like they did in Hungary when Lando pulled a 6 second gap on Oscar and they still made them swap.

Still an absolute MIRACLE to me that Londos car didn't explode or something when he went off line. Super risky.

You mean after they undercut Piastri to cover Hamilton having led the whole race on pure pace? Oh and by the way the overtake was done in an overtaking zone at the end of the DRS straight which, as I pointed out in an earlier post, is less risky. Still not risk free and would still have looked stupid if something happened to the car. Plus if Norris had actually switched position when told, when the cars were closer, it would have been even lower risk, and he was still allowed to race Oscar, so if he was as fast as he thought he was, he would have had no issue getting past Piastri on pace. Something Norris himself admitted was stupid from his side.

The other difference that you're willfully ignoring, is they weren't chasing a race leader from another team in Hungary, they were racing themselves, Piastri/Mclaren still had to chase Ferrari and Leclerc, the point at which it became clear that was no longer doable was later on the last lap at which point the swap is at the highest risk based on the aforementioned risks multiple people have pointed out to you. For the sake of 2 points, with 232 still to race for.

 

[GlamFM]

You mean after they undercut Piastri to cover Hamilton having led the whole race on pure pace? Oh and by the way the overtake was done in an overtaking zone at the end of the DRS straight which, as I pointed out in an earlier post, is less risky. Still not risk free and would still have looked stupid if something happened to the car. Plus if Norris had actually switched position when told, when the cars were closer, it would have been even lower risk, and he was still allowed to race Oscar, so if he was as fast as he thought he was, he would have had no issue getting past Piastri on pace. Something Norris himself admitted was stupid from his side.

The other difference that you're willfully ignoring, is they weren't chasing a race leader from another team in Hungary, they were racing themselves, Piastri/Mclaren still had to chase Ferrari and Leclerc, the point at which it became clear that was no longer doable was later on the last lap at which point the swap is at the highest risk based on the aforementioned risks multiple people have pointed out to you. For the sake of 2 points, with 232 still to race for.

Man I get it. You like Oscar - I like him too. I actually vastly prefer him over Lando.

If McLaren were competing in some popularity contest they'd have won big yesterday. Unfortunately they compete in the WDC and there they screwed up.

Not only by not swapping, but by allowing their drivers to go at it in the first place.

It's no surprise that Andrea Stella said after the race that they will now talk about team orders and Zak said after the race he wasn't happy with Oscars overtake.

Oh and "multiple people" have not pointed out to me the risks of swapping. You made up some nonsense about broken drive shafts and Famine said it wasn't 100% risk free.

I'm not new to F1. I've not been brought in by Netflix. I remember WDCs where it came down to the wire from my 30+ years watching the sport.

This is not how you win the close ones.


Let's move on.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Man I get it. You like Oscar - I like him too. I actually vastly prefer him over Lando.

If McLaren were competing in some popularity contest they'd have won big yesterday. Unfortunately they compete in the WDC and there they screwed up.

Not only by not swapping, but by allowing their drivers to go at it in the first place.

It's no surprise that Andrea Stella said after the race that they will now talk about team orders and Zak said after the race he wasn't happy with Oscars overtake.

Oh and "multiple people" have not pointed out to me the risks of swapping. You made up some nonsense about broken drive shafts and Famine said it wasn't 100% risk free.

I'm not new to F1. I've not been brought in by Netflix. I remember WDCs where it came down to the wire from my 30+ years watching the sport.

This is not how you win the close ones.


Let's move on.

Mclaren are competing in the WCC. Norris is doing his best ti throw away the WDC.

If you think it's nonsense then that's a you problem.

 

[McLaren]

If your argument is that Lando has to win on his own for his team to prioritize him you have to explain to me where exactly the prioritizing comes in.

Not what I said.

Yes, except Lando has to first put himself into such positions that allows the team to do so.

He has to get out in front or at least, ahead of Oscar. Letting Oscar get past can change team strategy b/c Oscar has the ability to win as much as Lando.

Lando not only brought himself into the position he is in in the championship - he also had pole in Monza.

Which he immediately lost for the 4th time this year on a GP opening lap (5th if you count the Shanghai Sprint). Every time except Zandvoort, this has ended up affecting his race b/c the person (or in Spain, 1 of the people) who got past him went on to finish ahead of him.

That’s where other teams with a shot at winning would have told Oscar not to attack Lando - especially not in such an aggressive way that not only brought Charles into the mix, but actually given how close it was in the end opened the door for Charles’s win. (And put Lando in P3 at the time)

In the view potentially costing the team WCC points, yes, it was a baffling move. In regards to the WDC, the team was intent on letting them race.

Charles ultimately won b/c of a tire gamble that paid off.

Zak Brown said that he was not happy with the overtake after the race btw.

I haven't seen any quote that says he was unhappy about it. By his own words, he told them to race by 'Papaya Rules' and then said that's what Oscar did. At worst, he said it was an aggressive pass & they will look at it, but he didn't seem to say anywhere he was unhappy with it.

Papaya Rules are, you know, it’s your teammate. Race him hard, race him clean, don’t touch. That happened.

Had Oscar raced anybody but Lando in this situation this would most likely have been a crash.

This is just pure speculation.

McLaren won nothing yesterday, but lost a lot.

"A lot" is exaggeration. Once again, those 2 points for Lando will not be a deciding factor in his championship pursuit. You need to revisit the options McLaren had here.

A) Charles is pulling a 1-stop that could affect his race with an easy overtake (as shown by Sainz losing out to both McLarens). Oscar is allowed to pursue Charles with Lando in tow as the lead was coming down significantly per lap & it could be more points for both McLarens. At worst, Charles holds on, McLaren secures a guaranteed 2-3 anyway.

B) McLaren abandons chasing Charles for more points b/c Oscar will have to back off to let Lando catch up and get 2 more points. McLaren ends up with the safe 2-3 result they would've still been guaranteed going after Charles, though.

It's not difficult to comprehend why McLaren went with Option A. They still get the results of Option B as a team, but with the added possibility of gaining even more.


If you want to move on from this, okay. Although, it would be amusing if you tried that, "Man I get it. You like Oscar" retort towards me whose had multiple avatars showcasing who I support.

 

[Jezza819]

Watched the replay last night. Can't believe Ferrari got a strategy call right but on home soil it was worth taking the chance. Charles still had to pull it off but he managed to do it. A Ferrari winning in Italy is still one of the best things in sports.

 

[Veinz]

I finally watched it last night too and what a race. Oscar’s pass on Lando was mega, if Lando wants priority then he needs to step it up.

 

[ScottPuss20]

McLaren have to stop pussyfooting and make some hard decisions or they will ruin things for themselves. If you're starting one-two, you must do everything you can to protect it from your opposition. Piastri's move compromised Norris and allowed Leclerc to jump into second place, which ultimately compromised the strategy further down the track. If Piastri stayed put, and played the role of rear gunner, things would've turned out better for the team. McLaren need to lay down the law and think about the long game because at this rate, the rivalry between the two team mates will explode. Argue all you like about who's the best driver but Norris has more points than Piastri and is much closer to Verstappen, so he must be prioritised.

 

[MagpieRacer]

McLaren have to stop pussyfooting and make some hard decisions or they will ruin things for themselves. If you're starting one-two, you must do everything you can to protect it from your opposition. Piastri's move compromised Norris and allowed Leclerc to jump into second place, which ultimately compromised the strategy further down the track. If Piastri stayed put, and played the role of rear gunner, things would've turned out better for the team. McLaren need to lay down the law and think about the long game because at this rate, the rivalry between the two team mates will explode. Argue all you like about who's the best driver but Norris has more points than Piastri and is much closer to Verstappen, so he must be prioritised.

Charles and George were too close to try and play that game on lap 1.

 

[AshenGraey]

As much as I like watching Piastri eclipse Norris from a performance standpoint, I cannot deny the fact that Norris is the main and closest challenger to Verstappen. With that said, I agree with anyone saying that McLaren really needs to help Norris clinch this by prioritizing him and clearly tells Piastri that from now on, he needs to be the rear gunner to create a buffer and provide support especially if he is behind Norris. If he is ahead of Norris because Norris either botched it or dropped the ball, he just needs to get on with his race and keep doing the already exceptional job that he's been doing by bringing in the points, the podiums and the win if within grasp.

I get that Norris is not really not helping himself with his terrible starts, his negative attitude and massively fluctuating performance but he is still P2 in the standings and has a real shot at challenging Max especially now that Red Bull are really vulnerable. Again as entertaining as it was to watch them race, with 8-9 races left in the season and such a big gap to Max in the standings, I can't help but think that they are shooting themselves in the foot and will never get the WDC that way. I reckon Piastry cannot win this championship without Max having at least 1 DNF so why let him attack Norris and take more points off? On the flip side, I do get the counter points to this argument and will also agree that with the many mistakes Norris has been making, he's just not really WDC material (at least not yet anyway) and doesn't deserve to win it especially if the team has to step in to help him.

On a side note, that was a masterful performance by Charles and Ferrari to pull off that blinder. Overall a good race compared to the snoozed fest Zandvort was. Also I still can't believe that after last year and the start of this year, the red bull is finishing nearly 40 secs behind P1. They either are really struggling or everyone just leapfrogged them because they were clearly the slowest team out of the top 4 here.

 

[TheCracker]

Seems to me that McLaren's main issue is that they never expected to find themselves as potential title (drivers and constructors) contenders this season. The first 10 races had Max and Redbull performing as they had been since 2021 and it felt like they were just going to walk it again. It's been a long decade+ road since McLaren were really at the sharp end, their strategy has been about maximising constructor points as that's a big issue with next seasons budget as the driver's title, the title that gets all the headlines, has seemed well out of reach - until now. I don't think they were fully prepared to contend for the driver's title and their strategy calls have shown that.

 

[EngieDiesel]

Seems to me that McLaren's main issue is that they never expected to find themselves as potential title (drivers and constructors) contenders this season. The first 10 races had Max and Redbull performing as they had been since 2021 and it felt like they were just going to walk it again. It's been a long decade+ road since McLaren were really at the sharp end, their strategy has been about maximising constructor points as that's a big issue with next seasons budget as the driver's title, the title that gets all the headlines, has seemed well out of reach - until now. I don't think they were fully prepared to contend for the driver's title and their strategy calls have shown that.

I feel like they also didn't expect to have two drivers who could easily deserve the number 1 driver position. It almost feels like McLaren are letting them fight it out over who is going to have that spot next season instead of directly choosing one themselves and probably fostering some resentment over it, because neither guy would be happy with being told they have to play the part of rolling roadblock when both are performing as well as they are right now.