Forza 4 Sound vs GT5 Sound

[Wolfe]

The change on the 1986 Civic Si in Horizon is so great that if your TV volume is adjusted for the high end, dropping into the low end will make you think the engine suddenly cut out.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I've heard it all now. A wheel with a clutch can change the engine sounds.

It actually does. Not BSing you. The wobble in the RPMs when you shift with a clutch is there. Specially when you let of the clutch slowly and not just quick shift.

Like i said before the Lamborghini Gallardo sounds amazing when you do that

 

[Samus]

I accept the sound of the actual shift could possibly sound different but it can't possibly change the general sound and tone of the entire recorded sample. The vacuum cleaners are always going to sound like vacuum cleaners. They're not suddenly going to sound like a growling V8 because you shift with a clutch.

 

[Lock2Lock]

I accept the sound of the actual shift could possibly sound different but it can't possibly change the general sound and tone of the entire recorded sample. The vacuum cleaners are always going to sound like vacuum cleaners. They're not suddenly going to sound like a growling V8 because you shift with a clutch.

Not the whole note but that lifeless shift sound and the being able to hit below idle RPMs does bring a whole new perspective on it. Also the RPMs decline different while using the clutch so the car does sound different.

And yep. Didn't say this fixes all the cars hahaha. But some. And surprisingly the old V8's don't really sound all that different with it

 

[Wolfe]

Gran Turismo has always had a terrible granny auto-clutch, so I'm not surprised shifting yourself sounds significantly different.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Gran Turismo has always had a terrible granny auto-clutch, so I'm not surprised shifting yourself sounds significantly different.

Granny auto-clutch hahaha nice way of putting it.

But yeah having a wheel like i have you can access the below idle RPMs (until the car shuts completely off). When you let the engine die and roll with it still in gear the engine turning sounds pretty cool (at least on the rotary engines)

 

[Samus]

Not the whole note but that lifeless shift sound and the being able to hit below idle RPMs does bring a whole new perspective on it. Also the RPMs decline different while using the clutch so the car does sound different.

And yep. Didn't say this fixes all the cars hahaha. But some. And surprisingly the old V8's don't really sound all that different with it

This is sounding very much like the "GT5 does have torque steer, it just isn't modeled in any way that resembles reality" argument.

 

[Lock2Lock]

This is sounding very much like the "GT5 does have torque steer, it just isn't modeled in any way that resembles reality" argument.

Hummmm don't understand how that is relevant to this neither will I get into the torque steer argument because it is completely pointless either way.

Anyway back on topic. If you have a proper setup it sounds different. I honestly don't care about going on about what is a proper setup for a sim (which it should be self explaitory which is proper equipment). So no it isn't relevant. If you don't have said wheel. I will kindly prove to you my point on the game. I am not making a video because then it will turn into some stupid argument about me not having proper recording equipment such as a capture card.

 

[Samus]

Look all I'm saying is the sound samples are what they are, no matter how you shift gears it's not going to change the overall sound of the sample. It's not possible. The videos posted above - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8285397#post8285397 are not going to suddenly lose the synthetic sound with a different gear change.

I brought that up because it's going along the same lines that you seem to like suggesting GT5 is good at things but only in certain, strange circumstances. You had to specially tune a car to demonstrate torque steer.

"GT5 does have torque steer, it just isn't modeled in any way that resembles reality"
"GT5 does have good sounds, it's just that you need a good steering wheel to notice"

 

[Lock2Lock]

Look all I'm saying is the sound samples are what they are, no matter how you shift gears it's not going to change the overall sound of the sample. It's not possible. The videos posted above - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=8285397#post8285397 are not going to suddenly lose the synthetic sound with a different gear change.

I brought that up because it's going along the same lines that you seem to like suggesting GT5 is good at things but only in certain, strange circumstances. You had to specially tune a car to demonstrate torque steer.

"GT5 does have torque steer, it just isn't modeled in any way that resembles reality"
"GT5 does have good sounds, it's just that you need a good steering wheel to notice"

I get what you are saying. But i never said it changes the whole exhaust note. I stated (which is a fact) that the way the sound (or sound sample or whatever you want to call it) does sound amazingly different with a clutch and shifting. That auto shift sound and how it goes immediately to the sound sample at that recorded RPM sounds different. That bellow/wobble in the RPMs that you see in real life is there is you have a setup like said real life car. And one of the greatest examples of this is the Lamborghini Gallardo.

With any wheel with a true gear box makes the RPMs climb and decline differently producing a different sound. Get what i mean?

And also I cannot see which post you were referring to on that link because i am currently on the mobile app. My computer is working on something for work and I cannot use it to see that at this time.

 

[Samus]

Well even if that were true (and to be honest I can't be bothered to argue anymore based on the torque steer thread) it's still not exactly a plus point for GT5, is it? Some of Forza 4 cars may sound embellished but at least they all sound the same whether you use a controller or a wheel with clutch.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Well even if that were true (and to be honest I can't be bothered to argue anymore based on the torque steer thread) it's still not exactly a plus point for GT5, is it? Some of Forza 4 cars may sound embellished but at least they all sound the same whether you use a controller or a wheel with clutch.

I have no clue about this thread you keep referring to. But yeah i agree with you on that. Forza has got the shifting correct on both. But i am not complaining either way. Like i said before Forza has cared a lot about getting the sounds correct. GT5 not consistently. But i am just stating that a lot of it is I guess hidden (might be a good word for it I guess). Not all of them are bad in GT5 but many are.


But if you would like to hear for yourself what i am talking about in a lobby I would be fine to show you. Or I can try to record it with my phone but it probably will sound better first hand since I don't have a capture card.

 

[1241Penguin]

One of my gripes with the sound in Forza is that the transition in sound files (is it even that?) going up the RPM range is very obvious. In that sense, GT5's sound is more "clean."

 

[Lock2Lock]

One of my gripes with the sound in Forza is that the transition in sound files (is it even that?) going up the RPM range is very obvious. In that sense, GT5's sound is more "clean."

You talking about the fade in fade out that a few others have mentioned?

 

[DonZonda]

This is the worst sound ever it gives me headaches thats why I dont use this car ...




But yeah Kaz said too realistic!
Sad... Sad...

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It actually does. Not BSing you. The wobble in the RPMs when you shift with a clutch is there. Specially when you let of the clutch slowly and not just quick shift.

Like i said before the Lamborghini Gallardo sounds amazing when you do that

No, it doesn't. It might change how the samples are delivered to you, and what RPM's are possible to hear, but having a wheel absolutely does not change the samples themselves.

The C6 RM's will still sound like wheezy GM 4.3L V6's.

 

[1241Penguin]

But yeah Kaz said too realistic!
Sad... Sad...

Read:

There was a translator present - just not Translator-san (who I'm told has broken his ankle - get well soon Translator-san!) - and Yamauchi rarely speaks in English at all, let alone full interviews.

However, invoking "lost in translation", I kind of understand what he's getting at, even if I don't necessarily agree.


"Sound" is a complex field - it's not as simple as recording a noise and playing it back. A really basic example is how you sound differently on a tape recorder than you do in your head. While I'm sure that how they record sounds isn't necessarily how I'd do it (doing it on a dyno is sensible - loading the engine with no road noise), the simple fact is that you will not be able to tell the difference on an equaliser between the real car and the GT5 one. It'll be the same pitch (frequency) spectrum at, if you choose, the same volume. This is what I suspect Kazunori means by "too real" - 1:1 on the equaliser.

This isn't the problem with GT5's sounds. The problem is what he refers to as "sexier" sounds - or what musicians will know as timbre. If you play two musical instruments at the same pitch and same volume an equaliser will show no difference - but they're different, aren't they? You know how you can tell between a synthesiser version of an instrument and a real instrument - or a human voice and autotune? This is due to timbre - timbre is what gives "sexiness" to sound. You can even tell between two identical instruments played entirely in synch with each other due to timbre...

What constitutes timbre is tough to pin down - it's essentially every characteristic of a sound that isn't the frequency or volume It's often referred to as "sound colour" and you'll hear terms bandied about like ADSR (attack [the start of a note], decay [normalisation from the attack to the sustain], sustain [the intended note], release [return to zero]), but it's really tough to explain and even tougher to compress and shove onto a CD/DVD/BD, uncompress, dynamically simulate and allow space for a game.

What many games do to substitute for timbre is make it louder and add more bass - because we associate noise, particularly bassy noise, with feeling. If you can feel the noise move through you it feels more "real" (and at real race tracks, sound hits you like a wall). Shoved through a set of TV speakers, it sounds "better" than the quieter and more accurate (in terms of the equaliser) note. GT games don't do this (with the exception of GTHD) and so, through TV speakers, they sound like ass because there is neither real feeling nor fake feeling - just the frequencies and volume. They sound better if you have speakers with better range and quicker reactions or if you have a good amp to dig the sounds out (on the pair of monitor speakers I usually use for gaming, GT5 sounds fine, if a little vague sometimes. Good enough at least that my wife can hear I'm driving a V8, three walls and a floor away) but the lack of timbre or a substitute for it prevents the realism.

There's certainly more they could do. Sound recording needs to be primarily in the driver's seat for cockpit, in the engine for nosecam, two feet behind and four feet above the car for coptercam (though winding in some essence of the other two for each will help add character). It needs to be pushed through a spectrometer rather than an equaliser before being passed as satisfactory. It needs to be optimised for different settings - the ghacky 2W TV speakers most people play through, a stereo system, a basic surround system (2.1), a middle surround system (5.1), a geeky surround system (7.1) and a full cinema system (what's this up to now? 14.2?).

Or they could make it louder and add bass.


Take "real" as "faithful frequency and amplitude reproduction" and take "sexier" as "better timbre or bassier/noisier" and the response makes sense.

 

[RACECAR]

I always thought the "Too Real" comment was taken way out of context.

 

[wrc900]

I think that both are pretty bad in terms of accuracy, but overall I'd have to go with Forza.
They make the game much more exciting.

 

[TwistyDrift]

I think that both are pretty bad in terms of accuracy, but overall I'd have to go with Forza.
They make the game much more exciting.

True, to be honest I watched this Forza video of a Honda Civic and you can actually hear the vtec kicking in and the cross over in GT5 errr not really but it's good enough.

 

[lxl ICEMAN 1894]

I don't hear sound, I hear engine notes. I would like RFactor or Raceroom quality car sounds but GT6 and FM5 will produce that when they have a console that can cope.

Maybe FM and GT are both playing the minimalist game of not doing all they can so next time they can improve. Gets old. Orginal GT games had horrible sounds and I still love them! Would be nice to have better sounds but I'm not gunna stress!

 

[Lock2Lock]

No, it doesn't. It might change how the samples are delivered to you, and what RPM's are possible to hear, but having a wheel absolutely does not change the samples themselves.

The C6 RM's will still sound like wheezy GM 4.3L V6's.

Once again never said it changed the samples themselves.

How the samples are delivered sure. Better wording I guess. Makes them sound different when they are delivered differently. But i never said the change. Sorry for the confusion.


And those RMs actually don't sound like V6s anymore. That RM crap sound has been long gone.

 

[Wolfe]

I don't hear sound, I hear engine notes. I would like RFactor or Raceroom quality car sounds but GT6 and FM5 will produce that when they have a console that can cope.

rFactor still has the same great sounds even if you play it on a dusty old PC. The PS3 is actually ideal for high-quality sound because BluRay offers so much space for uncompressed files. A bit ironic, that.

 

[lxl ICEMAN 1894]

rFactor still has the same great sounds even if you play it on a dusty old PC. The PS3 is actually ideal for high-quality sound because BluRay offers so much space for uncompressed files. A bit ironic, that.

And iRacing/RFactor don't have 900 cars to chose from and a track editor, and a complete offline mode, and a B-Spec... and and, so I'll sacrifice a little sound I guess!

 

[Scaff]

And iRacing/RFactor don't have 900 cars to chose from and a track editor, and a complete offline mode, and a B-Spec... and and, so I'll sacrifice a little sound I guess!

I strongly suspect that GT5 doesn't fill a Blu-ray and as such a good amount of space was available for uncompressed sounds, hell I would have take better produced compressed audio (which is what Forza uses) over what we have right now.

Going back to the quote from Famine on GT5's audio and some of the issues it has with it, one thing that I posted in the original thread that came from was:

While I agree with Famine's comments here it does still raise a few points for me:

• I think Kaz is being rather generous with this when applied to certain cars, which may well have 'real' sounds, but 'real' as in from a different car (most of the Lambo's spring to mind here).
• The element of production in regard to sounds is what shocks the most, these may be straight from the recording, but that does then beg the question as to why? Nothing sounds good as a straight from the source recording, you could take any musical recording pre-production and in most cases it will sound unbalanced and nasty. Yet that appears to be what Kaz says has been done with GT.

Now listening via a good system does make a difference, its still not enough of a difference to make up for the issues mentioned above. Take any of GT's competitors and do the same and they also improve. In other words GT5 via a 5.1 system only sounds 'better' if you view it in isolation.

I don't have a clue what PD seem to have against production for audio, its needed as without it sounds just don't sound 'right'. Its not cheating or false, and while it can certainly be overdone; every piece of music you listen to has been produced to better recreate what it would sound like if you were listening to it in person.

 

[Samus]

I strongly suspect that GT5 doesn't fill a Blu-ray :

Not even close, it's around 14GB IIRC.

 

[Lock2Lock]

Thinking back at a few claims that there was a problem with the positioning of the sound on GT5. There were a few threads complaining about with a 5.1 surround sound system while driving the 787B. A few have said "the sound while in cockpit/hood view" that the exhaust sound only came mostly from the right rear speaker. Some of them may not have known that the positioning for that sound was actually correct according to the cars actual exhaust position.

With that said. I have yet to find many games that do this with that much accuracy. And on other cars with a single exhaust on one side I can tell where the exhaust is on the car.

 

[Wolfe]

^ It seems PD want to go the synthetic route even if they do have recorded samples. As in, they care more about how the sound "functions" in a virtual space than how it sounds from a given vantage point. I've read about the 787B echoing down the Mulsanne straight from all the way down the track. Impressive detail, but what good is it if the game sounds like crud overall?

 

[Zer0]

Lamborghini Gallardo.

Same synthetic sound that plagues GT5.

(with clutch)


In some cases GT5 would only need a "crappy speaker" game setting to bring to those direct recordings some Forza feel. The audiophile nature of the GT5 sound is the cause that sound so different depending of the setup. Can also be externally altered and boosted in a more large scale than other games.

 

[Scaff]

In some cases GT5 would only need a "crappy speaker" game setting to bring to those direct recordings some Forza feel.

Because given your track record posting flame-bait is a smart idea.

The audiophile nature of the GT5 sound is the cause that sound so different depending of the setup.

The only audiophile thing about GT5's sound is that it can be output as LPCM, which in itself just gives you uncompressed audio, it does nothing to change the lack of production or the quality of the samples.

Can also be externally altered and boosted in a more large scale than other games.

Please tell me exactly what I am able to do on £2k's worth of AV equipment with GT5 that I can't do with any other title?

I only ask because it would appear that you are actually talking nonsense.

Yes GT5 does sound better through my AV kit in comparison to simply using TV speakers, but so does any other title that I route through it, as a result every other racing title I put through it improves and they all still sound better than GT5.