Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)

[Bane0fEvil]

Wow. Flames flying everywhere. I play forza because I play Xbox. I used to play gran turismo because I was on playstation. The gt series has been more in depth and fleshed out longer than forza. It's just a fact. Forza has caught up now. Good for Xbox players.


...really just wanted to get first post down so I can get going on frs.

 

[tare30]

Here's how I feel about this GT vs FM thing all and all...

It is a good thing that both exist.

If there was no GT, we might not have Forza either.

If there was just one or the other, we might have one less impressive game due to lack of competition.


And yes, I play both GT and Forza (and RBR, iRacing, Dirt etc).

 

[hennessey86]

You WILL love it.

I went from PWTS to CSR to CSR Elite.

The CSR i got for free because my 1 year and 11 months old PWTS was dying on me. Fanatec offered me a GT2 as replacement. I asked for a CSR and got one instead.👍

The CSR was great, realy nothing wrong with it. But like you: i NEEDED that CSR ELite. I sold the CSR a month later and preordered the CSR Elite.

Man, i love that wheel.

Nothing wrong with the CSR Elite, but about the Clubsport Wheel: I NEED that wheel (keeping the csr elite though)

add me on xboxlive, do you play race pro ??

 

[JoeMaPampang]

Forza 4 vs Gt5 video pretty good one

 

[Goshin2568]

I want to start off by saying I want to love forza 4. So much. I love the way it was done, and 95% of the things in the game are great, and done better than GT5, I even agree the physics are above GT5. But T10 got a few things majorly wrong, and it screws the entire game up for me.

1. Force Feedback. It's just much too weak. I play with a Fanatec GT2, FF turned up to 100 and in game up to 100. Still not half as strong as it is with the GT2 on GT5. This ruins so many things. Turn in isn't crisp, it's harder to feel when the tail starts to get loose, and it's hard to know when you are near the edge of grip. Rumble strips aren't as strong either. There's just not that "tight" feeling that you get in GT5 and most PC sims that tells you there is plenty of grip. It's extremely aggravating.

2. Steering Modes. Sim steering irks me. So does normal steering. There needs to be a happy medium. Normal steering is pretty good for regular driving, the cars feel good, until you have to countersteer, and then it just becomes way too easy. Sim steering is great for drifting and most of the time great for countersteering. I love how they have implemented the correct amount of opposite lock required to catch a big slide. That being said, some times it is overdone. You don't need full opposite lock to catch a tiny bit of power over. For regular driving however, sim steering just utterly fails, it seriously does feel most of the time that you are towing a trailer or something. Just going around a corner at normal speed, it all looks fine until you exit the corner, and suddenly you are being swung the other way. It's ridiculously annoying, and leads me to the biggest of these three problems...

3. TWITCHYNESS. It's absolutely unbelievable. I am genuinely surprised it isn't discussed more frequently. Every car, no matter the power, no matter the steering mode, takes the concentration of a neurosurgeon to drive correctly. I can't stand it. To specifically test this, I took two cars I knew (through GT5 and reading and watching real world reviews) to be good to drive, balanced and confidence-inspiring. The 458 Italia and the E90 M3. I first drove them on FM4, no aids with both normal and sim steering. Exiting EVERY SINGLE CORNER , full throttle, half throttle, no throttle, progressively increasing throttle, didn't matter, I had to make some sort of countersteering motion. Every time, both cars. They would not just drive out of the corner. The only way I could do it was to slow down to a slow, uncompetitive speed. After doing a whole lap like this, I watched the replay, and it just looked like I was taking a nice little sunday drive! I couldn't push either of the cars at all without massive understeer or snap-oversteer. Then taking both cars to GT5, this problem did not exist. No aids on comfort softs, and they were stable as could be as long as I didn't drive like a maniac. But give the cars a flick, or a power over, and the tail stepped out, just as I would expect them to do. Watching fifth gear's review of the 458 Italia confirmed what I believed. They specifically said the car was "stable and inspired confidence". That's not at all how it was in forza.
I'm not alone in this belief of twitchyness. In the German comparison of FM4 vs real life with an M5 (no aids, wheel, sim steering) the reviewer specifically said that you couldn't get near the throttle mid corner like you could in the real M5, and that the car was unstable and hard to correct.

I really like FM4 as a whole, but they got the most important thing wrong. The actual feel of the driving. Even the physics are great, there is just something wrong with how the input gets from the driver to the game, and how the feedback gets from the game to the driver.

 

[thelvynau]

Thats is very interesting I have seen the quote it doesnt feel right over in the gt5 forums when describing forzas driving.

 

[Scaff]

I want to start off by saying I want to love forza 4. So much. I love the way it was done, and 95% of the things in the game are great, and done better than GT5, I even agree the physics are above GT5. But T10 got a few things majorly wrong, and it screws the entire game up for me.

1. Force Feedback. It's just much too weak. I play with a Fanatec GT2, FF turned up to 100 and in game up to 100. Still not half as strong as it is with the GT2 on GT5. This ruins so many things. Turn in isn't crisp, it's harder to feel when the tail starts to get loose, and it's hard to know when you are near the edge of grip. Rumble strips aren't as strong either. There's just not that "tight" feeling that you get in GT5 and most PC sims that tells you there is plenty of grip. It's extremely aggravating.

2. Steering Modes. Sim steering irks me. So does normal steering. There needs to be a happy medium. Normal steering is pretty good for regular driving, the cars feel good, until you have to countersteer, and then it just becomes way too easy. Sim steering is great for drifting and most of the time great for countersteering. I love how they have implemented the correct amount of opposite lock required to catch a big slide. That being said, some times it is overdone. You don't need full opposite lock to catch a tiny bit of power over. For regular driving however, sim steering just utterly fails, it seriously does feel most of the time that you are towing a trailer or something. Just going around a corner at normal speed, it all looks fine until you exit the corner, and suddenly you are being swung the other way. It's ridiculously annoying, and leads me to the biggest of these three problems...

3. TWITCHYNESS. It's absolutely unbelievable. I am genuinely surprised it isn't discussed more frequently. Every car, no matter the power, no matter the steering mode, takes the concentration of a neurosurgeon to drive correctly. I can't stand it. To specifically test this, I took two cars I knew (through GT5 and reading and watching real world reviews) to be good to drive, balanced and confidence-inspiring. The 458 Italia and the E90 M3. I first drove them on FM4, no aids with both normal and sim steering. Exiting EVERY SINGLE CORNER , full throttle, half throttle, no throttle, progressively increasing throttle, didn't matter, I had to make some sort of countersteering motion. Every time, both cars. They would not just drive out of the corner. The only way I could do it was to slow down to a slow, uncompetitive speed. After doing a whole lap like this, I watched the replay, and it just looked like I was taking a nice little sunday drive! I couldn't push either of the cars at all without massive understeer or snap-oversteer. Then taking both cars to GT5, this problem did not exist. No aids on comfort softs, and they were stable as could be as long as I didn't drive like a maniac. But give the cars a flick, or a power over, and the tail stepped out, just as I would expect them to do. Watching fifth gear's review of the 458 Italia confirmed what I believed. They specifically said the car was "stable and inspired confidence". That's not at all how it was in forza.
I'm not alone in this belief of twitchyness. In the German comparison of FM4 vs real life with an M5 (no aids, wheel, sim steering) the reviewer specifically said that you couldn't get near the throttle mid corner like you could in the real M5, and that the car was unstable and hard to correct.

I really like FM4 as a whole, but they got the most important thing wrong. The actual feel of the driving. Even the physics are great, there is just something wrong with how the input gets from the driver to the game, and how the feedback gets from the game to the driver.

I have to say that I couldn't disagree more with this if I tried.

FM4 I find to be totally progressive in regard to how you apply power, and as such the degree of under and oversteer is almost entirely down to your right foot and how you drive the car. If I had to pick one that is twitchy it would be GT5 as the lack of progression in the tyre model in GT5 takes you from grip to loss with almost zero warning.

You mention lots of comparisons with GT5 and with what you have read, but have you tried comparisons against your own driving experience? From mine I have to say that in regard to under and power oversteer FM4 is a lot closer to how cars should react that GT5 is.

In regard to the 458, what you forget to mention is that when Plato said that he was driving the car at moderate speeds on the road and still got the back to twitch under power.

Would you be able to provide a reply or video to illustrate your issue, or details of a corner the M3 or 458 are not capable of taking at the correct speed (and what speed you expect them to be able to take it at).


Scaff

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I have played both games quite a lot. The biggest thing that Forza has over GT is the leaderboards allowing you to see how you and your cars compare to other drivers. There are also a couple of good tracks on Forza which we do not get on GT such as Fujimi and Maple Valley and Forza does not have that God awful whine from the race tranny. I think i also prefer the driving view in Forza and of course the paint and tune save/load options are better in Forza.

GT5 on the other hand has more cars, cars that are more true to life, better feel, much more fun when racing either the AI or human drivers. The AI in Forza 4 is just horrible. The PI system in Forza 4 is badly broken many cars in fact most cars just can not be made to be competetive in any class. Pretty much no realism imo. Cars are heavier or lighter than they are in real life, power is not the same as the real car, upgrades are not realistic.
Example Mazda Furia 500 pounds heavier in Forza 4 than in real life and the accel is much slower than the real car. Mazda 787B in Forza has 2 restrictor plates that can be removed to get a bit more power. In GT5 there is no restrictor plate but you can add a turbo which gives it more power than it can get in Forza 4. In real life they car that ran at Lemans had an optional turbo that they did not use but could have and would have raised the power to much more than you can get on it in Fioza. Just like GT5.
I guess they did all this restrictor stuff to try and level out the field a bit and in the case of the R1 class it did kind of work but there are far to many cars that can not be built in any class to where they can compete with the field many needing to be 1 or even 2 classes higher just to contend in a race. Power to weight ratio is not given proper due when it comes to accelleration, aero dynamics are not given enough weight for top speed and in general the cars do not seem to perform based on physics so much as some random valuespicked by turn 10. The speed, handling and accel graphs in Forza are pretty much meaningless with cars rated lower actyally being stronger and cars rated higher being weaker. They put way to much weight on the gears on some cars and none on others. Some cars a sport tranny will cost you 30 PI where others it will lower your PI by 1-5 points allowing you to add additional parts to the car. It is just horrible the way they have did this.

GT5 on the other hand does no have classes but the PI system is much better cars that have similar PI will be somewhat competive with each other. The AI in GT5 is much improved over GT4 and much better than Forza 4. The online racing is more fun on GT5. GT5 also has some cool tracks not found in Forza.

Overall both games have there upside and downside but overall I like GT5 better. In fact if GT5 had a leaderboard system and PS had a party chat system where I could talk with my firends while playing and compare laps without haveing to write them down then both myself and many of my friends would have not even bothered with Forza 4.

I hope that Turn 10 eventually sorts out the PI issues and try a bit harder to give the cars a more true to life performance and upgrade options. I hope that GT will have a leaderboard system in there next installment and make the A-Spec races a bit harder like they were in GT4. Would be awesome if they brought back the A-Spec points they had in GT4. I used to love trying to get the max spec points on each race, It presented a real challenge and made single player mode a lot of fun whereas in GT5 the races are 2 easy with only 2 or 3 being a challenge and in Forza the horrid AI just makes them a pain.

 

[Scaff]

I have played both games quite a lot. The biggest thing that Forza has over GT is the leaderboards allowing you to see how you and your cars compare to other drivers. There are also a couple of good tracks on Forza which we do not get on GT such as Fujimi and Maple Valley and Forza does not have that God awful whine from the race tranny. I think i also prefer the driving view in Forza and of course the paint and tune save/load options are better in Forza.

I actually wish we had more of the tranny wine in race moded cars, that should be what you can hear in a stripped car with a straight cut box.

GT5 on the other hand has more cars, cars that are more true to life, better feel, much more fun when racing either the AI or human drivers. The AI in Forza 4 is just horrible. The PI system in Forza 4 is badly broken many cars in fact most cars just can not be made to be competetive in any class. Pretty much no realism imo. Cars are heavier or lighter than they are in real life, power is not the same as the real car, upgrades are not realistic.
Example Mazda Furia 500 pounds heavier in Forza 4 than in real life and the accel is much slower than the real car. Mazda 787B in Forza has 2 restrictor plates that can be removed to get a bit more power. In GT5 there is no restrictor plate but you can add a turbo which gives it more power than it can get in Forza 4. In real life they car that ran at Lemans had an optional turbo that they did not use but could have and would have raised the power to much more than you can get on it in Fioza. Just like GT5.

GT5 has as many issues with car specs being wrong as FM4 does.

As for some cars dominating the leaderboards and always getting raced, GT5 has as many issues with this as FM4 does, difference being that T10 have revised the PI system to help balance this.

I guess they did all this restrictor stuff to try and level out the field a bit and in the case of the R1 class it did kind of work but there are far to many cars that can not be built in any class to where they can compete with the field many needing to be 1 or even 2 classes higher just to contend in a race.

Uhh they added restrictor plates because that's what they use to limit the power of LMP cars, and a hell of a lot of other race series:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictor_plate

Power to weight ratio is not given proper due when it comes to accelleration, aero dynamics are not given enough weight for top speed and in general the cars do not seem to perform based on physics so much as some random valuespicked by turn 10. The speed, handling and accel graphs in Forza are pretty much meaningless with cars rated lower actyally being stronger and cars rated higher being weaker. They put way to much weight on the gears on some cars and none on others. Some cars a sport tranny will cost you 30 PI where others it will lower your PI by 1-5 points allowing you to add additional parts to the car. It is just horrible the way they have did this.

The simply reason why items can both increase or decrease PI is that weight is accounted for in all components in FM4, which GT5 doesn't.

GT5 on the other hand does no have classes but the PI system is much better cars that have similar PI will be somewhat competive with each other. The AI in GT5 is much improved over GT4 and much better than Forza 4. The online racing is more fun on GT5. GT5 also has some cool tracks not found in Forza.

The AI in both is fairly rubbish, but as long as you don't steamroller it in FM4 it will race clean enough.




Scaff

 

[JDMKING13]

I love FM4 tire physics but something with the driving does not connect with me like GT5 does. I have been driving in FM4 like a mad man to figure it out. I will play with a car for and hour on the same track GT5 has and switch. No Hud clutch etc. And even with FM4 great tire physics the driving doesn't connect with me. I have a CSR wheel that was made for FM4 but I swear the wheel feel better with GT5. It feels more natural with GT5 while with FM4 it feel weird I cannot explain it. I drive in 900 degrees mode but It just doesn't feel right.

 

[HBR-Roadhog]

I actually wish we had more of the tranny wine in race moded cars, that should be what you can hear in a stripped car with a straight cut box.

The whine actually makes my head hurt so I could definitely do without it.

GT5 has as many issues with car specs being wrong as FM4 does.

Possibly as there a twice as many cars but I have noticed it more in FM4

As for some cars dominating the leaderboards and always getting raced, GT5 has as many issues with this as FM4 does, difference being that T10 have revised the PI system to help balance this.

It's not just dominating the leaderboards it is that many of the cars can not be made to be competive with other cars in any class no matter how you build them they always will end up 1-2 classes higher when you give them the required parts to make them competive. There really seems to be no rhymn or reason to the PI system. The stock gearing on many cars is rubbish and they will charge you 30 pi to change the final drive on many of these where others have a decent stock gearing and they reward you with 1-5 PI when you add the adjustable tranny, this alone is responsible for many of the dominant cars. Pretty much all the Hondas, the Chevy Spark, The Alfa Spider just to name a few.

The new PI changes did very very little to help any of the issues. They did however delete many LB times which were not effected by the PI change, I think 1 car I driove on one track went from a 425 to a 426 all the others are still right were they were before yet they removed dozens of legit times with the PI change.

Uhh they added restrictor plates because that's what they use to limit the power of LMP cars, and a hell of a lot of other race series:

I knwo they use restrictors in racing, the point is the Mazda 787b stock should have 732 HP you get this only when you remove the restrictors that it did not have. The Mazda also had a large turbo that could be added to it and would give another 200 or so HP which is not available. Also the stock tranny in FM4 is not a race tranny which is just plain stupid. Who ever heard of an LMP car without a race tranny.

The simply reason why items can both increase or decrease PI is that weight is accounted for in all components in FM4, which GT5 doesn't.

That is not the case. A sport tranny for a Honda may reduce the weight by 5 pounds or so which if anything should cause the PI to go up, you also get an adjustable final drive which if anything would cause the PI to go up but on a Honda it goes down. Mean while on some other cars the same weight drop results in a smaller power to weight ratio difference and raises the PI by up to 30 points where if anything it should be less of an increase due to weight as the weight is not a big a factor. Again this causes big problems in the PI GT uses power to weight ratio and the result is much better.

The AI in both is fairly rubbish, but as long as you don't steamroller it in FM4 it will race clean enough.

You must be playing a different Forza than I am, time after time I have had them cut me off in the corners, hit me in the sidefront middle rear, use me for brakes and ever other thing you can think of to make the racing no fun at all. Basically the AI drives like there are no other cars on the track and if you move to the inside line in a corner with an AI on the outside you can be assured that you will be hit and your lap will be disquallified and quite likely your car will end up spinning aroudn and facing the opposite direction. It is in a word horrible. GT5 is much better and even then leaves a lot to be desired.

Ironically in FM4 if you turn collisons off then the AI will slow up and try not to hit you

 

[Brian 7h3 King]

You must be playing a different Forza than I am...

I won't stick my neck out to defend the quality of FM4's AI, but keep in mind that they do not all drive the same way; some are more aggressive than others. You see the video Scaff just posted.

Who ever heard of an LMP car without a race tranny.

The car is more than 20 years old man, it really did have three pedals and five gears connected to an H-shifter.

 

[Scaff]

It's not just dominating the leaderboards it is that many of the cars can not be made to be competive with other cars in any class no matter how you build them they always will end up 1-2 classes higher when you give them the required parts to make them competive. There really seems to be no rhymn or reason to the PI system. The stock gearing on many cars is rubbish and they will charge you 30 pi to change the final drive on many of these where others have a decent stock gearing and they reward you with 1-5 PI when you add the adjustable tranny, this alone is responsible for many of the dominant cars. Pretty much all the Hondas, the Chevy Spark, The Alfa Spider just to name a few.

The stock gearing on cars is the stock gearing, I don't see how that makes a bit of difference, some will win out some will loose out. GT5 is no different if you take two cars with the same PP stock, one could well have appealing standard ratios and another not.

On the general point of PI, it is calculated very differently in Forza to GT and while you find issue with how its dealt with in Forza I can't stand that GT doesn't take into account tyres.

The new PI changes did very very little to help any of the issues. They did however delete many LB times which were not effected by the PI change, I think 1 car I driove on one track went from a 425 to a 426 all the others are still right were they were before yet they removed dozens of legit times with the PI change.

Disagree, the cars it was aimed at hitting (the US muscle mainly) it was on the whole fairly effective at doing.

I knwo they use restrictors in racing, the point is the Mazda 787b stock should have 732 HP you get this only when you remove the restrictors that it did not have. The Mazda also had a large turbo that could be added to it and would give another 200 or so HP which is not available. Also the stock tranny in FM4 is not a race tranny which is just plain stupid. Who ever heard of an LMP car without a race tranny.

The 787b's R26b engine had 690bhp in race trim according to Mazda...

http://www.rotaryeng.net/Mazda_R26B_US.pdf

....I would also be interested in a source for the turbo upgrade for the 787B, as I've never come across that before. I am aware that Mazda has since '92 made claims that they could get 900-ish bhp out of the engine, but that could be achieved in many ways.

That is not the case. A sport tranny for a Honda may reduce the weight by 5 pounds or so which if anything should cause the PI to go up, you also get an adjustable final drive which if anything would cause the PI to go up but on a Honda it goes down. Mean while on some other cars the same weight drop results in a smaller power to weight ratio difference and raises the PI by up to 30 points where if anything it should be less of an increase due to weight as the weight is not a big a factor. Again this causes big problems in the PI GT uses power to weight ratio and the result is much better.

Not all the transmission upgrades reduce weight which is why the PI points are not a set change in value.

You must be playing a different Forza than I am, time after time I have had them cut me off in the corners, hit me in the sidefront middle rear, use me for brakes and ever other thing you can think of to make the racing no fun at all. Basically the AI drives like there are no other cars on the track and if you move to the inside line in a corner with an AI on the outside you can be assured that you will be hit and your lap will be disquallified and quite likely your car will end up spinning aroudn and facing the opposite direction. It is in a word horrible. GT5 is much better and even then leaves a lot to be desired.

Ironically in FM4 if you turn collisons off then the AI will slow up and try not to hit you

I simply cite the video posted above, plenty of close racing with the AI and no brake checks, no cutting off, etc.

While the AI in both still needs a lot of work, both AI's act far better if you race against them as you would a real person.

Oh - don't bypass the swear filter again please.

Scaff

 

[hennessey86]

I keep reading GT5 has more feel, I can't feel anything. Yes its heavy but there is zero feel for what the tires are doing, where as in forza you can feel everything. It may not be as heavy as GT5's but I would rather have more feel.

 

[JDMKING13]

I keep reading GT5 has more feel, I can't feel anything. Yes its heavy but there is zero feel for what the tires are doing, where as in forza you can feel everything. It may not be as heavy as GT5's but I would rather have more feel.

I guess It really come down to your preference, and I understand what you mean with the feeling FM4 gives you that lightness in the wheel when loosing tire grip(under steering). FM4 driving overall feels weird to me a little unnatural while in GT5 it feels as if i'm driving my Honda civic SI with the inputs. Both have ups and down but I am enjoying both. That's kinda hard for some folks.

 

[hennessey86]

I guess It really come down to your preference, and I understand what you mean with the feeling FM4 gives you that lightness in the wheel when loosing tire grip(under steering). FM4 driving overall feels weird to me a little unnatural while in GT5 it feels as if i'm driving my Honda civic SI with the inputs. Both have ups and down but I am enjoying both. That's kinda hard for some folks.

I had a great session on GT5 last night in a shuffle race lobby with comfort soft tires, under the right circumstances GT5 can be epic.

 

[JDMKING13]

I had a great session on GT5 last night in a shuffle race lobby with comfort soft tires, under the right circumstances GT5 can be epic.

Thats one of the reason why I enjoy GT5 I can put any tire on any car even if its a sucky tires. In my league If you don't keep up with your tires you will eventually have to drop a grade down to simulates worn tires. I hope FM lets us choose any tire and allow us to have some type of power limiter in the future. 👍

 

[Spagetti69]

What's happening Roadhog?
I thought you were done with the Forza franchise after the way you were treated in F3.
How come you changed your mind?

Glad to see you picked it up.

 

[Scaff]

I guess It really come down to your preference, and I understand what you mean with the feeling FM4 gives you that lightness in the wheel when loosing tire grip(under steering). FM4 driving overall feels weird to me a little unnatural while in GT5 it feels as if i'm driving my Honda civic SI with the inputs.

The lightness as you run past the peak of the tyres slip angle is exactly what I love about FM4's tyre model, its what tyres do and for me is a part of what makes it feel natural.

Both have ups and down but I am enjoying both. That's kinda hard for some folks.

I enjoy both, but for me GT5 has become more about collecting the cars that than tuning or driving them, the issues with the tuning and tyre model have just become a bit old for me. Which is honestly, as a major fan of GT from the launch day of the first game, as much a shock to me as anyone.

Thats one of the reason why I enjoy GT5 I can put any tire on any car even if its a sucky tires. In my league If you don't keep up with your tires you will eventually have to drop a grade down to simulates worn tires. I hope FM lets us choose any tire and allow us to have some type of power limiter in the future. 👍

A greater range of tyres in FM would indeed be welcome, the power limiter however is a cheap way of fooling the PI system, as it just flattens the power and torque curve. Its not realistic at all, a power limiter that actually reduced the curve in a more balanced manner would be better and welcome in both.

What I would love to see in Forza is the ballast system from GT5, as ballast placement is valuable tool within tuning.

 

[Goshin2568]

I keep reading GT5 has more feel, I can't feel anything. Yes its heavy but there is zero feel for what the tires are doing, where as in forza you can feel everything. It may not be as heavy as GT5's but I would rather have more feel.

But heaviness is feel...

For me personally, all I need to know about the tires is how much traction is available. The heavier the wheel, the more traction the car has. That's exactly the way it is in every car I've ever driven. In GT5, the wheel never really goes light, so it's a little harder to detect under and oversteer, but at least the wheel feels good and is heavy for cars with good handling. The opposite (and in my opinion much worse) problem exists in FM4. Yes, the wheel goes light when the steering angle exceeds the tire's travel angle. But it's never heavy in the first place. It just leads to a huge disconnect from the car. If the wheel never tells me the tires are gripping in the first place, what's the point of it telling me when they aren't?

In GT5, I can tell how positive a car's steering is by taking one hairpin. If the wheel is tight and heavy, I know exactly what the car is doing, and it leads me to believe that that car if driven in real life, would have a good, positive feeling steering feel. On the other hand, if it's a bad handling car, the wheel feels numb and unresponsive. Can I still drive the car? Definitely. Is this an issue with the game? No. That car in real life probably has numb steering.

In FM4, all of the cars feel like they have numb steering. Some worse than others, but none good. I have never, ever, ever gotten into a car in FM4 and said to myself "Wow! This car feels great!". Yes the tire model is good, and the feedback from the tires is good, but there is never a connection to the car.

I think it boils down to this: In GT5, I can feel what the tires and wheel feel like when I'm doing things right. It just feels fantastic. When you are doing things wrong, it's much worse. That leads to complaints about tires suddenly losing traction, and no being able to feel understeer and oversteer very well. GT5 great FFB turns to crap once the car is pushed too hard.
In FM4, it's the polar opposite. Yes, the tires tell you all about them losing grip, and the wheel goes light, and you can feel the oversteer, and the tire model is progressive, etc, etc. But, you never get to feel that feeling of "This car is gripping the road well!" when you are doing everything right.

 

[Scaff]

But heaviness is feel...

For me personally, all I need to know about the tires is how much traction is available. The heavier the wheel, the more traction the car has. That's exactly the way it is in every car I've ever driven. In GT5, the wheel never really goes light, so it's a little harder to detect under and oversteer, but at least the wheel feels good and is heavy for cars with good handling. The opposite (and in my opinion much worse) problem exists in FM4. Yes, the wheel goes light when the steering angle exceeds the tire's travel angle. But it's never heavy in the first place. It just leads to a huge disconnect from the car. If the wheel never tells me the tires are gripping in the first place, what's the point of it telling me when they aren't?

In GT5, I can tell how positive a car's steering is by taking one hairpin. If the wheel is tight and heavy, I know exactly what the car is doing, and it leads me to believe that that car if driven in real life, would have a good, positive feeling steering feel. On the other hand, if it's a bad handling car, the wheel feels numb and unresponsive. Can I still drive the car? Definitely. Is this an issue with the game? No. That car in real life probably has numb steering.

In FM4, all of the cars feel like they have numb steering. Some worse than others, but none good. I have never, ever, ever gotten into a car in FM4 and said to myself "Wow! This car feels great!". Yes the tire model is good, and the feedback from the tires is good, but there is never a connection to the car.

I think it boils down to this: In GT5, I can feel what the tires and wheel feel like when I'm doing things right. It just feels fantastic. When you are doing things wrong, it's much worse. That leads to complaints about tires suddenly losing traction, and no being able to feel understeer and oversteer very well. GT5 great FFB turns to crap once the car is pushed too hard.
In FM4, it's the polar opposite. Yes, the tires tell you all about them losing grip, and the wheel goes light, and you can feel the oversteer, and the tire model is progressive, etc, etc. But, you never get to feel that feeling of "This car is gripping the road well!" when you are doing everything right.

Feel and how it relates to handling is a quite subjective and personally thing.

I don't relate heavy steering to feel and communication at all (talking real world here), certainly the best handling cars I've had the pleasure of driving have not for the vast majority had heavy steering at all.

Even unassisted steering doesn't need to be heavy at speed and a good number of cars I've come across with heavy steering have also been quite devoid of steering feel (hello Audi). The Lotus Elise is still a benchmark for steering feel, yet despite being unassisted unless you are parking one the steering is light, direct and totally communicative.

Heavy steering isn't feel to my mind, its a simple preference, me I would much rather have direct communicative steering.

Doesn't mean anyone is wrong, rather that we have a different set of preferences.

In regard to GT5 and FM4, I don't personally find that GT5 has that much variation in the steering feel, particularly with the standard cars, with most of them feeling like they lack much variation in weight. The two things that most impressed me with FM4 (and this was from as far back as the demo) was the progression with the tyre model and the sense of mass that they cars have, comparing the M5 from the demo with the WRX and I could sense the difference in mass and the effect that has on the cars balance, load to tyres, etc. That's something I've always found lacking in GT, although it did improve post 2.0 its still not a match to FM4 for me. As a result the model in FM4 communicates all I need, telling me exactly what load I have on the tyres and how they are being worked and it does so in an analogue manner, in contract I find GT5's communication to be digital, grip is on or off.

 

[hennessey86]

But heaviness is feel...

For me personally, all I need to know about the tires is how much traction is available. The heavier the wheel, the more traction the car has. That's exactly the way it is in every car I've ever driven. In GT5, the wheel never really goes light, so it's a little harder to detect under and oversteer, but at least the wheel feels good and is heavy for cars with good handling. The opposite (and in my opinion much worse) problem exists in FM4. Yes, the wheel goes light when the steering angle exceeds the tire's travel angle. But it's never heavy in the first place. It just leads to a huge disconnect from the car. If the wheel never tells me the tires are gripping in the first place, what's the point of it telling me when they aren't?

In GT5, I can tell how positive a car's steering is by taking one hairpin. If the wheel is tight and heavy, I know exactly what the car is doing, and it leads me to believe that that car if driven in real life, would have a good, positive feeling steering feel. On the other hand, if it's a bad handling car, the wheel feels numb and unresponsive. Can I still drive the car? Definitely. Is this an issue with the game? No. That car in real life probably has numb steering.

In FM4, all of the cars feel like they have numb steering. Some worse than others, but none good. I have never, ever, ever gotten into a car in FM4 and said to myself "Wow! This car feels great!". Yes the tire model is good, and the feedback from the tires is good, but there is never a connection to the car.

I think it boils down to this: In GT5, I can feel what the tires and wheel feel like when I'm doing things right. It just feels fantastic. When you are doing things wrong, it's much worse. That leads to complaints about tires suddenly losing traction, and no being able to feel understeer and oversteer very well. GT5 great FFB turns to crap once the car is pushed too hard.
In FM4, it's the polar opposite. Yes, the tires tell you all about them losing grip, and the wheel goes light, and you can feel the oversteer, and the tire model is progressive, etc, etc. But, you never get to feel that feeling of "This car is gripping the road well!" when you are doing everything right.

I honestly don't see what your talking about, GT5 has zero feel. The wheel is the exact same weight weather your going a hundred through 130r or 20 round the monaco hairpin. Forza has weight, the vibration motors in Fanatecs are used to great effect and the wheel translates grip from the tires perfectly. That's what a good car feels like, even old cars like the F40 with no power steering have feel and are not just a dead weight all the time.

 

[Spagetti69]

I almost sure that GT Forcefeedback took a nose dive after one of the patches. Can't remember which. Rumble strips lost their, Er rumble, etc.

What did impress me with GT,s FF was the Karts. They felt excellent. Maybe it's because the Kart in real life almost has an on/off grip level. Well when I've driven one it seems like that. Heavy steering too.

 

[t.o.]

I honestly don't see what your talking about, GT5 has zero feel. The wheel is the exact same weight weather your going a hundred through 130r or 20 round the monaco hairpin. Forza has weight, the vibration motors in Fanatecs are used to great effect and the wheel translates grip from the tires perfectly. That's what a good car feels like, even old cars like the F40 with no power steering have feel and are not just a dead weight all the time.

Man I've been saying this for the longest but I was starting to feel I was the only one who was getting this especially the part about the vibration motors. GT5 does not use those motors at all because those are a Microsoft spec. And their absence shows, big time for me when playing GT5.

Of course I've been saying this so many times people are probably getting tired of it. lol. I'm sorry but wheel feel between GT5 and FM4 is no comparison. GT5 doesn't even come close. If you own a Fanatec and both games you should know exactly what were talking about. If you don't then:
A) Your Fanatec is broke
B) Your settings are all messed up
C) Your ability to feel is SEVERELY hampered

 

[Spagetti69]

I thought if running abs on a fanatec eliminates engine rumble but you get brake lock up vibration instead.

Turn off the ABS function and the rims motors reflect engine revs.

Almost sure this applets to GT too.

 

[JDMKING13]

Man I've been saying this for the longest but I was starting to feel I was the only one who was getting this especially the part about the vibration motors. GT5 does not use those motors at all because those are a Microsoft spec. And their absence shows, big time for me when playing GT5.

Of course I've been saying this so many times people are probably getting tired of it. lol. I'm sorry but wheel feel between GT5 and FM4 is no comparison. GT5 doesn't even come close. If you own a Fanatec and both games you should know exactly what were talking about. If you don't then:
A) Your Fanatec is broke
B) Your settings are all messed up
C) Your ability to feel is SEVERELY hampered

Dude the vibration does work in GT5 all you have to do is turn off the ABS on the Fanatec wheel I have a CSR and the motor vibration are pretty damn strong (I have my Sho at 10). I own both games and while the understeer effect is better in FM4 the wheel feel is better and more natural to me in GT5. Treed by my man spag. In FM4 you don't need ABS off, the wheel will still rumble which I love, because GT5 abs system is terrible. Without the Fanetec ABS rumble and ABS off (in GT5) you have to get use to the wheel weight shift and the sounds. With ABS off and the correct brake balance GT5 braking becomes very good. Even so I hate it because it is hard to find drivers who are willing to get a realistic experience while braking. Everybody is so used to the stomp on the brakes method because GT5 ABS 1 does not make you pay for bad braking technique. FM4 does.

Edit also the way you say GT5 has no feel I completely disagree with you. You can feel elevation change bumps and weight transfer and oversteer really good. I have been playing GT5 longer so maybe I can feel it better. In FM4 what stands out to me is the tire grip levels. Its really good with the understeer part. Doing launches are AWESOME way better than GT5 and I think this is due to the great tire physics. The oversteer is kinda shaky IMO. Again both games are great and it really comes down to your preference I'm just glad I have both. 👍

 

[Goshin2568]

Dude the vibration does work in GT5 all you have to do is turn off the ABS on the Fanatec wheel I have a CSR and the motor vibration are pretty damn strong (I have my Sho at 10). I own both games and while the understeer effect is better in FM4 the wheel feel is better and more natural to me in GT5. Treed by my man spag. In FM4 you don't need ABS off, the wheel will still rumble which I love, because GT5 abs system is terrible. Without the Fanetec ABS rumble and ABS off (in GT5) you have to get use to the wheel weight shift and the sounds. With ABS off and the correct brake balance GT5 braking becomes very good. Even so I hate it because it is hard to find drivers who are willing to get a realistic experience while braking. Everybody is so used to the stomp on the brakes method because GT5 ABS 1 does not make you pay for bad braking technique. FM4 does.

Edit also the way you say GT5 has no feel I completely disagree with you. You can feel elevation change bumps and weight transfer and oversteer really good. I have been playing GT5 longer so maybe I can feel it better. In FM4 what stands out to me is the tire grip levels. Its really good with the understeer part. Doing launches are AWESOME way better than GT5 and I think this is due to the great tire physics. The oversteer is kinda shaky IMO. Again both games are great and it really comes down to your preference I'm just glad I have both. 👍

Pretty much sums it up exactly. 👍

 

[hennessey86]

Dude the vibration does work in GT5 all you have to do is turn off the ABS on the Fanatec wheel I have a CSR and the motor vibration are pretty damn strong (I have my Sho at 10). I own both games and while the understeer effect is better in FM4 the wheel feel is better and more natural to me in GT5. Treed by my man spag. In FM4 you don't need ABS off, the wheel will still rumble which I love, because GT5 abs system is terrible. Without the Fanetec ABS rumble and ABS off (in GT5) you have to get use to the wheel weight shift and the sounds. With ABS off and the correct brake balance GT5 braking becomes very good. Even so I hate it because it is hard to find drivers who are willing to get a realistic experience while braking. Everybody is so used to the stomp on the brakes method because GT5 ABS 1 does not make you pay for bad braking technique. FM4 does.

Edit also the way you say GT5 has no feel I completely disagree with you. You can feel elevation change bumps and weight transfer and oversteer really good. I have been playing GT5 longer so maybe I can feel it better. In FM4 what stands out to me is the tire grip levels. Its really good with the understeer part. Doing launches are AWESOME way better than GT5 and I think this is due to the great tire physics. The oversteer is kinda shaky IMO. Again both games are great and it really comes down to your preference I'm just glad I have both. 👍

I have been playing GT5 since day 1 and your right you can feel elevation changes, but transition to over steer or under steer has zero effect on FFB. The wheel is either heavy or errrrrrrrrr heavy. The FFB is Forza is great, I can feel everything through the wheel which is what makes great cars great to drive. Honestly I don't see why there is any arguement, GT5 was better than Forza 3, now Forza 4 is better than GT5. If GT6 can release before Forza 5, I am sure it will be better than Forza 4 and for those of us who play both games that is a fantastic prospect.

 

[Goshin2568]

Feel and how it relates to handling is a quite subjective and personally thing.

I don't relate heavy steering to feel and communication at all (talking real world here), certainly the best handling cars I've had the pleasure of driving have not for the vast majority had heavy steering at all.

Even unassisted steering doesn't need to be heavy at speed and a good number of cars I've come across with heavy steering have also been quite devoid of steering feel (hello Audi). The Lotus Elise is still a benchmark for steering feel, yet despite being unassisted unless you are parking one the steering is light, direct and totally communicative.

Heavy steering isn't feel to my mind, its a simple preference, me I would much rather have direct communicative steering.

Doesn't mean anyone is wrong, rather that we have a different set of preferences.

In regard to GT5 and FM4, I don't personally find that GT5 has that much variation in the steering feel, particularly with the standard cars, with most of them feeling like they lack much variation in weight. The two things that most impressed me with FM4 (and this was from as far back as the demo) was the progression with the tyre model and the sense of mass that they cars have, comparing the M5 from the demo with the WRX and I could sense the difference in mass and the effect that has on the cars balance, load to tyres, etc. That's something I've always found lacking in GT, although it did improve post 2.0 its still not a match to FM4 for me. As a result the model in FM4 communicates all I need, telling me exactly what load I have on the tyres and how they are being worked and it does so in an analogue manner, in contract I find GT5's communication to be digital, grip is on or off.

No... It's just not subjective. It's common sense, it's just how cars and tires work. By 'heaviness" I don't necessarily mean hard to turn, I mean the fact that you can feel the friction between the tires and the road trying to center the wheel. The more grip you have (ie the more friction) the harder the wheel will be to turn. Therefore when plenty of grip is available, the wheel will feel heavier around the corner.

Try it in a real car. Go around a corner, just normally, and you will feel the wheel get harder to turn, as the wheel is fighting to return to center.

Man I've been saying this for the longest but I was starting to feel I was the only one who was getting this especially the part about the vibration motors. GT5 does not use those motors at all because those are a Microsoft spec. And their absence shows, big time for me when playing GT5.

Of course I've been saying this so many times people are probably getting tired of it. lol. I'm sorry but wheel feel between GT5 and FM4 is no comparison. GT5 doesn't even come close. If you own a Fanatec and both games you should know exactly what were talking about. If you don't then:
A) Your Fanatec is broke
B) Your settings are all messed up
C) Your ability to feel is SEVERELY hampered

A) Pretty sure it works fine. Only has problems in forza.
B) What settings do you use then? I use fanatec's settings for FM4, and inside sim racing's settings for GT5.
C) I had two other people try it besides myself just because you said that. A family member and a friend. They both said that they could feel where the car was on the road much better in GT5, (and one of them had never even used a wheel in a racing game before). In GT5, both could keep it on the road, in FM4, they pretty much would understeer off the road at every exit to a corner because Forza doesn't tell you when you have grip.

I have been playing GT5 since day 1 and your right you can feel elevation changes, but transition to over steer or under steer has zero effect on FFB. The wheel is either heavy or errrrrrrrrr heavy. The FFB is Forza is great, I can feel everything through the wheel which is what makes great cars great to drive. Honestly I don't see why there is any arguement, GT5 was better than Forza 3, now Forza 4 is better than GT5. If GT6 can release before Forza 5, I am sure it will be better than Forza 4 and for those of us who play both games that is a fantastic prospect.

But Forza has the opposite problem, which you are not acknowledging, the wheel never gets heavy! It's light or waaaayy light.



I'm not alone in this. Jdmking agrees with me, and so do all of these people.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/2/5337516/ShowThread.aspx

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/post/5314775.aspx

http://f-wheel.com/forums/index.php?topic=1593.15

And that was found with a 15 minute google search for sensitivity issues and force feedback issues.
Heck, in the second link I provided, the guy almost says word for word what I've been saying.
"I never said I thought the physics themselves were bad, but the car seemed to loose grip on the front and the back at every turn."

EDIT:
Found another thread with this complaint.

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/17/5065299/ShowThread.aspx - post 5324010

He complains of his car (it's even 4WD) and most other cars in the game randomly losing grip on corners where that isn't even logical. And specifically says it's with a fanatec wheel. And, he says he doesn't have those problems in GT5.

 

[Scaff]

No... It's just not subjective. It's common sense, it's just how cars and tires work. By 'heaviness" I don't necessarily mean hard to turn, I mean the fact that you can feel the friction between the tires and the road trying to center the wheel. The more grip you have (ie the more friction) the harder the wheel will be to turn. Therefore when plenty of grip is available, the wheel will feel heavier around the corner.

Try it in a real car. Go around a corner, just normally, and you will feel the wheel get harder to turn, as the wheel is fighting to return to center.

What your describing is 'self aligning torque' and in my opinion GT5 does it appallingly it has a massive (and very important) part of it almost completely absent.

This how it should progress....

...the problem with GT5 is that pretty much anything after the 3degrees of slip angle doesn't exists, the point at which the SAI reduces is the critical part of performance driving. Without feedback in that area your steering isn't communicating at all.

Personally how 'heavy' either title is to begin with doesn't bother me at all, the actual degree of torque and how high it gets varies from car to car in the real world anyway (an Elise would be much lower at peak that an M5 for example), what matter is that the entire range of SAI is covered. FM4 does a reasonable job of that, GT5 doesn't and the bit its poor at is the most critical part, the part that allows you to find that last bit of traction from the tyre.

Maximum traction from a real tyre comes from a point beyond the peak of SAI, something that GT5 doesn't communicate.


Scaff