Well, that was back in March - my initial impressions. And last weekend, I finally got my hands on Forza 4. I'm absolutely hooked and will probably never look back. The more I play it, the better it gets and the more I'm thinking about what took PD nearly 6 years with Gran Turismo 5.
Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)
- Thread starter hennessey86
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- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
- 81
- xSeNSaTioN-_
I'm going to go through the points of the original post here, as a long time GT player who's only started playing Forza in the last 3 months. Firstly I don't agree with people who use pads not knowing jack. Driving in the real world is absolutely nowhere near the same as using a wheel on a 360/ps3, so it's sortta irrelevant.
Physics - Forza's are better than GT5's. As hennessey said cars seem to have real mass to them. They're able to be drifted, sharply thrown about etc. In GT5 things are good until the car is asked to go sideways. Then the illusion is broken and the car feels all over the place, almost like it's skipping over the tarmac at times instead of having 4 wheels planted on it. You have no idea what one end is doing compared to the other and they can be pretty awkward to control compared to Forza.
Noise - Forza wins hands down. Don't even think I need to elaborate at all on this one. Hennessey said it all.
Offline - I couldn't pick a winner. Forza has a huge variety of offline events where plenty of different cars are used. In GT5 the variety is much smaller. However GT5 also contains the challenge series events, such as racing against Sebastien Loeb. Personally I hated them but they were well executed. They were also a lot more challenging than Forza's Ten Pin Bowling mode. The AI I'd be more tempted to give to GT5. AI in Forza seem happy to smash me off the track any chance they get. We wouldn't tolerate this behaviour online so I can't understand why it's seen as a good offline. However in GT the AI does seem easier to beat as well. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.
Car selection - as hennessey said goes to Forza all day long. GT5's selection of a million variants of the Skyline makes for pretty boring choices.
Online - something hennessey didn't discuss. This also goes to Forza. While it can sometimes take a little while to get into a lobby once in there the rythm flows and the races come thick and fast with a good variety of lobbies. GT5's online is incredibly awkward, slow and very unreliable. There was also no support from the devs for the first year of its life i.e. car packs which is one of the reasons I got Forza.
Overall I'd give the award to Forza. It's simply a more fun experience than GT5. It's better supported, has a better car choice (which I think I'd describe as more Western) and a much better online. Little touches like the player cards also help make it a far more individual experience, something GT5 has never managed to do. GT is much more clean and clinical, almost as if it wants to cut out fun in the process of simulation.
Physics - Forza's are better than GT5's. As hennessey said cars seem to have real mass to them. They're able to be drifted, sharply thrown about etc. In GT5 things are good until the car is asked to go sideways. Then the illusion is broken and the car feels all over the place, almost like it's skipping over the tarmac at times instead of having 4 wheels planted on it. You have no idea what one end is doing compared to the other and they can be pretty awkward to control compared to Forza.
Noise - Forza wins hands down. Don't even think I need to elaborate at all on this one. Hennessey said it all.
Offline - I couldn't pick a winner. Forza has a huge variety of offline events where plenty of different cars are used. In GT5 the variety is much smaller. However GT5 also contains the challenge series events, such as racing against Sebastien Loeb. Personally I hated them but they were well executed. They were also a lot more challenging than Forza's Ten Pin Bowling mode. The AI I'd be more tempted to give to GT5. AI in Forza seem happy to smash me off the track any chance they get. We wouldn't tolerate this behaviour online so I can't understand why it's seen as a good offline. However in GT the AI does seem easier to beat as well. Swings and roundabouts I suppose.
Car selection - as hennessey said goes to Forza all day long. GT5's selection of a million variants of the Skyline makes for pretty boring choices.
Online - something hennessey didn't discuss. This also goes to Forza. While it can sometimes take a little while to get into a lobby once in there the rythm flows and the races come thick and fast with a good variety of lobbies. GT5's online is incredibly awkward, slow and very unreliable. There was also no support from the devs for the first year of its life i.e. car packs which is one of the reasons I got Forza.
Overall I'd give the award to Forza. It's simply a more fun experience than GT5. It's better supported, has a better car choice (which I think I'd describe as more Western) and a much better online. Little touches like the player cards also help make it a far more individual experience, something GT5 has never managed to do. GT is much more clean and clinical, almost as if it wants to cut out fun in the process of simulation.
- 803
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- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
Except that it is...
- 1,471
- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
- hennessey861
Driving with a wheel is about 100 percent more realistic than a controller.
- 81
- xSeNSaTioN-_
Driving with a wheel is closer than a pad, sure, but still nowhere near what is actually like to drive a car in the real world. There are too many things a game just can't simulate. And I was sortta making the point to prove that people who use pads might know more than "jack" i.e. I use a pad but I'd consider myself to know more than a 15 year old with a wheel.
- 1,471
- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
- hennessey861
If you look at the 3rd or fourth comment you will see that the "pad users know jack" comment was meant for a different group entirely. But I will say that pad users can only get a very limited sense of what the games physics feel like5. As for games not being able to simulate certain things, your right. But the feel I get through my fanatec GT2 is pretty much the same as get when I'm driving my own car. I was a pad user myself, don't take that comment personally dude.
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
I am in absolute agreement with this statement. If you don't think modern racing sims don't feel pretty close to driving with a real car, then you:
A) Have never driven a modern racing sim with a good wheel and good settings
B) Have never driven a real car
or
C) Have no sense of feel.
I mean seriously.
- 14,435
- Los Angeles, CA
- Lma_robot
- lImaRobotl
Just need to ask, what car do you drive/have driven? I dont get how you guys can relate to any of these super cars/high end cars if you have never driven any?(maybe you have actualy this is just an assumption) I'm not calling anyone out im just wondering. I mean i can understand these statements, but mostly for the lower grade cars. How many of you have actually been behind a high powered car to actually make statements like these?(Again, just a simple question, I'm not calling anyone out.)
Reason i bring this up is because most people dont get the everyday opportunity to drive most of these high end cars, and then go to a game and say "This feels just like my Koenngsingsinsign." So wouldn't it be a bit wrong to address cars, that a said person has never driven? (3rd time I'm going to say this; Maybe some of you have so I'm not calling anyone out, just asking a question as to how you guys come to your conclusions about most of the cars and said physics with a wheel)
- 1,409
- PA
- JEFF636
- OLDSKOOLACURA
it is a video game period. yes a controller gives a better "feel" then a pad, but it still fake and nothing.........nothing close to the real thing.
when you go too fast into a corner, you worry about losing the race not losing your life.
- 674
- M.I.A
What exactly are we supposed to be feeling?
Most of the senses used in driving a car in the real world simply are not there when driving a sim.
Ever heard of "driving by the seat of your pants"? How exactly is your everyday console racer/gamer meant to simulate that? Or what about sense of speed? Field of view/depth perception? All of these things are usually faked in games either through the wheel, with camera effects or extra hardware, this means driving in them is significantly different to driving at any sort of limit in the real world for the vast majority of people.
In essence we are just doing this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcb6Cjh7VIc
- 1,409
- PA
- JEFF636
- OLDSKOOLACURA
^ this.....i agree
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
You are all taking the comment way too seriously. Obviously, a sim doesn't simulate g-forces and the like. That's a given. The fact that you bring that up is stupid.
This is what I was talking about. The feel through the wheel allows you to feel and drive in much the same way as a real car.
Honestly, do all of you commenting on "It's just a video game blah blah" Actually have a good wheel and setup?
If you don't have a fanatec with some good pedals, you don't really get a vote as you aren't feeling the same thing through the wheel as I am.
It feels as if some people are too "Old school" to come to grips with the fact that technology has reached the point where we can learn alot of things about race driving through a simulator at home. It's just possible nowadays.
As for my real world driving experience, I have driven plenty of cars, with the highlights being a Gallardo and an STI. I have also attended multiple racing schools, and driven an Indy Car over 170 mph at a driving experience.
I apologize if I seem a bit pompous and annoyed, but I absolutely hate the mentality of "These are just video games and anyone who says otherwise is just a 12 year old with a wild imagination."
You have no clue. Go troll somewhere else.
/rant
EDIT:
And who said anything about super high end cars? I believe that all of my statements so far have been in general about the physics, force feedback, and wheel feel of modern racing sims. Not at all about any specific models of cars. Whether a certain car behaves like it does in real life is completely down to which sim you are playing and how that specific developer did in the modeling of a specific car, and is completely irrelevant to the point I am trying to get across, and that is that playing racing sims with the right setup feels similar enough to real driving and racing that you can learn many of the skills needed for race/performance/stunt driving.
This is what I was talking about. The feel through the wheel allows you to feel and drive in much the same way as a real car.
Honestly, do all of you commenting on "It's just a video game blah blah" Actually have a good wheel and setup?
If you don't have a fanatec with some good pedals, you don't really get a vote as you aren't feeling the same thing through the wheel as I am.
It feels as if some people are too "Old school" to come to grips with the fact that technology has reached the point where we can learn alot of things about race driving through a simulator at home. It's just possible nowadays.
As for my real world driving experience, I have driven plenty of cars, with the highlights being a Gallardo and an STI. I have also attended multiple racing schools, and driven an Indy Car over 170 mph at a driving experience.
I apologize if I seem a bit pompous and annoyed, but I absolutely hate the mentality of "These are just video games and anyone who says otherwise is just a 12 year old with a wild imagination."
You have no clue. Go troll somewhere else.
/rant
EDIT:
And who said anything about super high end cars? I believe that all of my statements so far have been in general about the physics, force feedback, and wheel feel of modern racing sims. Not at all about any specific models of cars. Whether a certain car behaves like it does in real life is completely down to which sim you are playing and how that specific developer did in the modeling of a specific car, and is completely irrelevant to the point I am trying to get across, and that is that playing racing sims with the right setup feels similar enough to real driving and racing that you can learn many of the skills needed for race/performance/stunt driving.
- 1,409
- PA
- JEFF636
- OLDSKOOLACURA
Haha there are so many more variables then just the wheel while driving. I have two G27 wheela and one is modded. Ive thought about buying a csr buy im currently putting money into one of my cars. Ive heard nothing but good things about that wheel ( aside from the price), the fact is no matter how good a wheel is it is never close to the real thing. Yes it can make the experience a lot better, but it is nothing close to feel of driving a real car just as hard.
Yes i still want to over haul my racing setup and get the csr, but right now im working on.my real vehicles, i will deff have a setup when im done with school and buy a house.
The only racing game ive played so far that gave me a hair standing on the back of my neck feeling is IRacing. Sitting on the grid hoping i dont screw up my irating and racing clean but agressive as possible.
I never said it can't help you as a driver, and yes it is just a video game. Some racers use this as training but most use it for entertainment.
Sorry for misspelling. Im on the phone and typing fasr
Yes i still want to over haul my racing setup and get the csr, but right now im working on.my real vehicles, i will deff have a setup when im done with school and buy a house.
The only racing game ive played so far that gave me a hair standing on the back of my neck feeling is IRacing. Sitting on the grid hoping i dont screw up my irating and racing clean but agressive as possible.
I never said it can't help you as a driver, and yes it is just a video game. Some racers use this as training but most use it for entertainment.
Sorry for misspelling. Im on the phone and typing fasr
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
None of that matters at all. Whether or not you get that "hair standing on end" feeling or the "seat of your pants" feeling is not what I'm debating. Yes, you need to really drive a car for that. Duh.
What I'm trying to say, and I know this from experience, is that modern race sims give you a great tool in learning a lot of things about performance driving. How to countersteer, how to trail brake, how to find a racing line, how to modulate brake and throttle control, how to be smooth, all of those are key racing principles that you could easily learn in a sim and don't require all of those "seat of the pants" feelings you keep yapping on about.
- 674
- M.I.A
Well what did you expect us to do?
I have a fanatec GT2 and clubsport pedals
Yes you can learn, but imo you're limited to learning racecraft, track knowledge, and some advanced driving techniques. Honestly, would you base your next car purchase on solely on driving a car in GT5 or Forza?
I've driven a few cars from these games too, from the MK1 golf GTI (extensively) the the Ferrari 550 in fm3 (less extensively), and honestly not much of the steering -which is really all we have to judge off- felt similar in any of the cases, sure the cars might react the same but that's about it for me.
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
Well what did you expect us to do?
Umm.. Comment about what I was actually talking about.
Fair enough haha...
Which is pretty much most of what you need to know...
And no, not solely, but considering I wouldn't be able to do any fast, high performance driving on the dealership test drive most likely, it would be a huge factor if I was planning to be driving the car fast after I bought it. Yes, I would trust GT5/Forza 4 for the most part, I think.
I mean, stuff like comfort, practicality, fuel economy, steering feel/numbness, ride comfort, seating, etc. obviously wouldn't be discernible in a racing sim, but stuff like high speed handling, twitchyness, grip, fun to drive (to an extent) and cornering ability are all things I could learn.
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- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
- hennessey861
Obviously your not going to get the seat of your pants experience unless you get a butt kicker or something similar. Technology is moving very fast and some of the rigs I have seen are doing amazing jobs of simulating everything. I am talking more about the feel through a decent wheel and it being very similar to the feel you get when driving a real car.
- 81
- xSeNSaTioN-_
I didn't mean to start a riot over this. Just to put the record straight, I've never used any Fanatec products and right now I don't own a wheel but I have used various G25/7's in the past with the matching pedals on GT5, Forza and a WRC game. I don't pretend to know too much about them, but what I did get was that while it felt immensely more realistic than a pad, it still didn't feel that close to driving the cars ive driven in the real world - various Ford's, Impreza etc.
If you think it does, great. Like I said I was more sort of using it as a throwaway comment to avoid what hennessey said about pad users. Guess I shoulda read the third post a bit more carefully.
If you think it does, great. Like I said I was more sort of using it as a throwaway comment to avoid what hennessey said about pad users. Guess I shoulda read the third post a bit more carefully.
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- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
- hennessey861
- 4,440
- zr1chris
- zr1chris
I'm aware of that but it's not only that it doesn't have FFB but it also wont give you 900° of rotation. Bottom line is its not comparable. He mine as well have just used a controller. You can't use a wheel that functions properly on a PS3 and use that same wheel that hardly functions on the xbox and get fair results.
Maybe i'm just late to the party and missed something...
- 674
- M.I.A
- 1,471
- hennessey_86 and GTP_evox
- hennessey861
the link is broken mate
- 479
Works just fine for me.
- 803
- Waco, TX
- GTP_Goshin2568
- Goshin2568
Haha good read but it doesn't solve anything. The whole point of that article is finding out why FFB wheels don't feel real. This doesn't apply to out discussion because I do believe a good FFB wheel feels pretty real.
- 10,403
- GTP_Spag69
- spagetti69
Sorry
- 11,820
- Marin County
Despite Forza having a absolutely crushing advantage in the areas of sound (still far from what I call good, but definitely better), customization, community, list of cars, list of real tracks...I still find myself liking GT5 better. Heres why:
Get a car that doesn't sound like a vacuum cleaner, there are a few. I prefer the Spirit R RX-7, stock.
Go to the Nurburgring weather change, time change, free run.
Set the time to just before dawn. 4:45am works for me.
Set time scale to 1. Set weather to OFF (mostly because it still doesn't look that great)
Race for a solid hour (or more, the time flies) at the Nurburgring as the sun comes up with a wheel that provides incredibly realistic force feedback.
Forza cannot even approach this experience. I've never been able to even do more than one lap at the ring in Forza. Despite all it's got going for it, it doesn't look nearly as good, the physics aren't even in the same league, and the experiential nature just doesn't exist.
There are some things I truly hate about GT5. Actually there are a lot of things. But when it's at it's best (as above) it is a truly remarkable thing. To be honest Forza is the stronger game the majority of the time, but it never gets *as good* as GT5 can.
For that, GT5 gets my vote. I'm hoping v3.0 (if it ever comes) will bring great things.
Get a car that doesn't sound like a vacuum cleaner, there are a few. I prefer the Spirit R RX-7, stock.
Go to the Nurburgring weather change, time change, free run.
Set the time to just before dawn. 4:45am works for me.
Set time scale to 1. Set weather to OFF (mostly because it still doesn't look that great)
Race for a solid hour (or more, the time flies) at the Nurburgring as the sun comes up with a wheel that provides incredibly realistic force feedback.
Forza cannot even approach this experience. I've never been able to even do more than one lap at the ring in Forza. Despite all it's got going for it, it doesn't look nearly as good, the physics aren't even in the same league, and the experiential nature just doesn't exist.
There are some things I truly hate about GT5. Actually there are a lot of things. But when it's at it's best (as above) it is a truly remarkable thing. To be honest Forza is the stronger game the majority of the time, but it never gets *as good* as GT5 can.
For that, GT5 gets my vote. I'm hoping v3.0 (if it ever comes) will bring great things.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Please explain 'physics aren't even in the same league' and what you are using for FM4.
I use a CSR and I think FM4 has GT5 beat in the physics department. But what you said about Nurburgring's Nord track.. it is a massive advantage for GT5 in the track model and detail and look, as well as the night shift (although I'm not a fan of night racing to begin with, same goes for weather)
What is 'experiential nature'?
PD needs to stop tweaking their game and work fully on GT6, without adding more side tracking projects and please... no more Prologue BS!!
I use a CSR and I think FM4 has GT5 beat in the physics department. But what you said about Nurburgring's Nord track.. it is a massive advantage for GT5 in the track model and detail and look, as well as the night shift (although I'm not a fan of night racing to begin with, same goes for weather)
What is 'experiential nature'?
PD needs to stop tweaking their game and work fully on GT6, without adding more side tracking projects and please... no more Prologue BS!!
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- TPC_Raccooon23
- CRaccoon23
