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Forza 4 VS GT5 (read the first post before you contribute)
- Thread starter hennessey86
- 2,850 comments
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- 5,660
- Edison NJ
- jdmking13
- Lucid killer 58
They made the feedback better in GT5 now, so the driving is even better. Please T10 fix the feedback I love the DLC but whats up just making FM4 better. I just don't understand how CSR is an official FM wheel but it feels better with GT5. Cuco I have no problem with them making GT5 better, your acting as if these changes will not be in GT6. What ever they do for GT5 will be ready for GT6.
- 1,732
- cuco33
CSR defaults to a Logitech G series wheel driver and what's strange is the wheel wobble you get with Logitechs in GT5 at high speed you don't get with the CSR (or any non Logitech wheel using this driver). I think the only thing the CSR does better in GT5 is FFB strength. Even though the FFB strength in FM4 feels a bit weaker, it still feels better in Forza. Not worlds better, just a little better and more realistic. Maybe it's a wheel setting, I don't know but to me I feel the road more with this wheel in Forza.
I don't have a problem if PD makes GT5 better but how much better is it going to be? The game is still borked, just less borked than before and significantly less borked than at launch. And anytime PD releases a patch that fixes things, they screw up other things. Today's latest v2.06 patch apparently tweaked the physics some more (it needed tweaking?) and adjusted the sound where it's more bass-y but sounds wrong. The FFB from what I'm reading was improved, apparently to what it was like before they screwed that up. No patch will update standards and the disparity in features and quality they have compared to premiums. No patch will will significantly improve the vacuum sounds. The best we can hope for is some tweaks and bug fixes and of course DLC stuff. But like mentioned, whenever PD updates the game and fixes issues, other issues come out the wood work.
I would love T10 to patch FM4 by improving the FFB as in add more strength. The wheel and game is adjustable so if it's too much for us we can dial it back. I got my CSR setup after the patch that apparently reduced the FFB strength.
- 11,826
- Marin County
in regards to FM4 physics:
I feel like the suspension doesn't work properly.
Even in a stock car, if you hit the curb on the inside of a turn, there is a good chance the car will roll over. The suspension does not absorb any of the impact.
Not only that, but I feel like the grip of the car is handled in a very arbitrary way. In real life, if you have two cars of similar weight with the same tires, they have about the same maximum grip(subjective handling and transitions, oversteer/understeer will be totally different, but I'm talking maximum steady-state grip) In Forza, it seems to depend on some unknown x-factor that is built into each car. It's hard to describe, but it feels contrived, like each car has a base value for grip (as in it's not calculated from the geometry of the car/chassis, chassis stiffness and other real world factors) and the different tires just function as multipliers for this base value.
For example, I was trying to race in a class S race with an RX-8, offline. The RX-8 had racing tires and yet was unable to maintain the same speed as the other, stock-tired, S class cars through the corners. It even had full aero. It should have handled like a race car, and it just didn't.
What I imagine they do is give each chassis a base grip value (arbitrarily decided to make the performance index system work for the given power/weight ratios) and the aero and tires just function as multipliers for this allotted grip. I'm not trying to say the tire model isn't realistic (i'm not sure if it is or isn't) but something just doesn't feel right.
There is nothing in the in-game telemetry to prove me wrong.
If I'm wrong, then why do some cars just NEVER handle properly no how much suspension tuning you do. The MX-5 superlight (modified with race tires, aero and 300bhp or so) has this horrible habit of snap lift-off oversteer. I pegged out the damper settings, pegged out the alignment settings, max downforce, etc, and it just barely makes a difference. It's like the tendency to oversteer with the slightest lift of throttle is hardcoded into the chassis. This shouldn't happen with an FR car with something like 60:40 weight distribution and race tires.
GT5 feels more honest to me, on the physics side.
I feel like the suspension doesn't work properly.
Even in a stock car, if you hit the curb on the inside of a turn, there is a good chance the car will roll over. The suspension does not absorb any of the impact.
Not only that, but I feel like the grip of the car is handled in a very arbitrary way. In real life, if you have two cars of similar weight with the same tires, they have about the same maximum grip(subjective handling and transitions, oversteer/understeer will be totally different, but I'm talking maximum steady-state grip) In Forza, it seems to depend on some unknown x-factor that is built into each car. It's hard to describe, but it feels contrived, like each car has a base value for grip (as in it's not calculated from the geometry of the car/chassis, chassis stiffness and other real world factors) and the different tires just function as multipliers for this base value.
For example, I was trying to race in a class S race with an RX-8, offline. The RX-8 had racing tires and yet was unable to maintain the same speed as the other, stock-tired, S class cars through the corners. It even had full aero. It should have handled like a race car, and it just didn't.
What I imagine they do is give each chassis a base grip value (arbitrarily decided to make the performance index system work for the given power/weight ratios) and the aero and tires just function as multipliers for this allotted grip. I'm not trying to say the tire model isn't realistic (i'm not sure if it is or isn't) but something just doesn't feel right.
There is nothing in the in-game telemetry to prove me wrong.
If I'm wrong, then why do some cars just NEVER handle properly no how much suspension tuning you do. The MX-5 superlight (modified with race tires, aero and 300bhp or so) has this horrible habit of snap lift-off oversteer. I pegged out the damper settings, pegged out the alignment settings, max downforce, etc, and it just barely makes a difference. It's like the tendency to oversteer with the slightest lift of throttle is hardcoded into the chassis. This shouldn't happen with an FR car with something like 60:40 weight distribution and race tires.
GT5 feels more honest to me, on the physics side.
- 5,660
- Edison NJ
- jdmking13
- Lucid killer 58
I cannot get into the game like you guys the FF is just not doing it for me I have tried many different settings but still the wheel feels so light and weak. On the straights the wheel is dead compared to GT the only thing FM does good with the FF is letting you know when your understeering. Other than that it's pretty weak. Just as Eunos said driving on the ring on both games are day and night. Last night while driving on the ring the bumps where actually throwing me off my line and giving me feed back all through the wheel it was amazing. In FM4 the wheel feels so bland only coming alive during under steering T10 are amazing with their DLC, but what I want is T10 to polish the game up especially the FF.
- 672
- Toulouse
- TheHBK
- HBK Live
If I remember right, the RX-8 can only afford limited width tires. So in S class, it probably has relatively low weight and something like 400 hp, or not so low weight and maybe 500 hp. Regardless of how you tune the chassis, its ability to transfer power will be limited, added aero or not.
It's probably the same thing with your MX5 Superlight, limited tire width with 300 hp in a very light car is going to be twitchy.
That's not to say Forza's physics are perfect. But the overall feeling of grip is very good and seems consistent with weight, tire width, tire compound, suspension, and of course aero.
- 1,732
- cuco33
You're not supposed to feel wobble in a straight line. I've driven various cars in real life on a straight line at high speed and never experienced high speed wobble like you feel in GT5 with Logitech wheels. It's one of the things I hated about my DFGT and small experience from a buddy's G25. What's strange is that my CSR defaults to a Logitech driver and yet my CSR doesn't get this wobble, which I'm really glad it doesn't!
I fully agree with you guys that the green hell is much much better in GT5 over FM4, but that's not saying it's horrible in Forza. It's just that GT's version is that good. It's unfortunate that T10 reused PGR's ring model with minor tweaks, which was already very flat, slightly wider in some areas and overall longer by a bit than the real thing.
But I've done some like for like testing in the same cars on other tracks like Laguna Seca and GT5's version, although nice felt very bland. The straight from the start/finish line in GT5 I can take flat out without having any issue prior to braking hard in turn 1 but in Forza 4 if I do that the car gets so unbalanced due to the dip I'll lose it. Forza's version of LS is much better in my book and it's not just this dip on the first straight. There's other corners and parts of the track that feel wrong in GT5 like the corkscrew. I can take it almost flat out in a high powered race car and fully flat out in something like 550pp and lower without issue. Try that in Forza and your going off the track, as you need to feather the throttle. Another thing I thought was strange was that it was harder and felt more realistic to drive cars in Forza on race slicks than it was on default tires in GT5, as in I was not only putting faster lap times on CS/SH tires but it was much easier to drive and a whole lot easier to control any mishaps in GT5 than in FM4.
- 11,826
- Marin County
I know that under power, many things happen. However, I'm talking about strictly steady-state cornering conditions. The RX-8 had the biggest race tires available, max aero, and full suspension. I didn't tune the suspension, but max steady state grip has much more to do with tires and aero than suspension. Again handling =! grip. C4 Corvettes dominate their class in autocross (last I heard) because they have huge grip. Doesn't mean they actually handle well, because they don't.
I mean it's not terrible. I just feel it's not really *genuine* I can even understand why they would do something like what I'm postulating for the sake of balancing. There are so many C425, B500, A600 cars stock. They couldn't possibly meet those exact PI numbers without a bit of arbitrary tweaking to base conditions of each car.
edit: By the way, the Logitech wobble only manifests itself because of the rather large FFB deadzone. It's not anything to do with GT5 I don't think.
I mean it's not terrible. I just feel it's not really *genuine* I can even understand why they would do something like what I'm postulating for the sake of balancing. There are so many C425, B500, A600 cars stock. They couldn't possibly meet those exact PI numbers without a bit of arbitrary tweaking to base conditions of each car.
edit: By the way, the Logitech wobble only manifests itself because of the rather large FFB deadzone. It's not anything to do with GT5 I don't think.
- 1,732
- cuco33
Did you adjust the tire pressure? Sometimes if I'm in a car that I built and the other cars take me at launch or are faster around the turns, a simple tire pressure adjustment is all it needs to gain advantage at launch/through the turns.
My big problem with GT5 is something Scaff pointed out many moons ago. High powered cars shouldn't take off from stand still or very low speeds without any issues or any torque steer. That plus the whole same lateral grip if on same tire compounds regardless of car is another negative.
Neither Forza nor GT do it 100% right but I like both games cuz they both do it right enough and feel real enough to me. I think Forza 4 feels more realistic to me though but not by a long shot. GT5 just feels easier and a little less realistic to me. After hammering through races both pad and wheel in Forza 4, and then going back to GT5, it just feels easy. And note between both games the only assist I use is ABS = 1 in GT5, nothing else on in both games (driving line depending on track and if I'm having issues with the car just to learn braking points of that car)
Maybe I'm getting better at these games
Regarding the wobble, I think it has all to do with GT5. I don't get it in my DFGT when I play other games on PC or PS3 platforms. Only GT5 has this, and strangely any wheel that defaults to the Logitech drivers don't get the wheel wobble. Seems to be a GT5-Logitech driver thing
- 11,826
- Marin County
Considerably more than there were in FM3. IIRC, C, D, and E class have an especially large number of maxed cars in stock form. I can understand maybe 1 or 2 by coincidence, but C class has more than 5 easily. Tells me they are tinkering...
edit: found this:
http://forzamotorsport4.wikia.com/wiki/Full_Car_List
Is that still current? Because if so it totally makes my previous claim incorrect. That list doesn't coincide with my memory.
- 5,660
- Edison NJ
- jdmking13
- Lucid killer 58
You're not supposed to feel wobble in a straight line. I've driven various cars in real life on a straight line at high speed and never experienced high speed wobble like you feel in GT5 with Logitech wheels. It's one of the things I hated about my DFGT and small experience from a buddy's G25. What's strange is that my CSR defaults to a Logitech driver and yet my CSR doesn't get this wobble, which I'm really glad it doesn't!
I fully agree with you guys that the green hell is much much better in GT5 over FM4, but that's not saying it's horrible in Forza. It's just that GT's version is that good. It's unfortunate that T10 reused PGR's ring model with minor tweaks, which was already very flat, slightly wider in some areas and overall longer by a bit than the real thing.
But I've done some like for like testing in the same cars on other tracks like Laguna Seca and GT5's version, although nice felt very bland. The straight from the start/finish line in GT5 I can take flat out without having any issue prior to braking hard in turn 1 but in Forza 4 if I do that the car gets so unbalanced due to the dip I'll lose it. Forza's version of LS is much better in my book and it's not just this dip on the first straight. There's other corners and parts of the track that feel wrong in GT5 like the corkscrew. I can take it almost flat out in a high powered race car and fully flat out in something like 550pp and lower without issue. Try that in Forza and your going off the track, as you need to feather the throttle. Another thing I thought was strange was that it was harder and felt more realistic to drive cars in Forza on race slicks than it was on default tires in GT5, as in I was not only putting faster lap times on CS/SH tires but it was much easier to drive and a whole lot easier to control any mishaps in GT5 than in FM4.
Who said anything about wobble? I get no wobble. Both games have engine rumble don't they? FM4 engine rumble is weak compared to GT5 the wheel feels dead until high RPM and even still the sensation is very weak. With your Laguna experience I truly cannot agree with you on that but I drive with ABS off. GT5 abs system is garbage it keeps the car to stable and does not resemble a real ABS system. You will get a realistic brake experience with abs off and a correct BB. The corkscrew is very hard to hit correct and if you slam the throttle you will spin out every time. I am not experience anything you said with GT5 and Laguna,
That's the problem turn off the ABS and set the brake balance up with a 1-0 for old cars with weak brakes, 2-0 for normal cars 3-1 for high end sports and and 4-2 for super cars ABS is terrible in GT5. It act more like stability control than ABS. FM4 has a way better ABS system in my opinion Once you turn off ABS in GT5 and set the brake balance the physics really come alive! Best experience so far for me.
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- TheHBK
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Maybe. Maybe not
Cars in stock form seems evenly spread out in the PI range as far as I can tell. Maybe they did a little tinkering on some cars, I don't know, but they would only need to tweak the cars very lightly to make a 504PI car or a 495PI car a 500PI car (for example). I doubt that would explain why you feel the RX8 lack grip in S-class. Many "low-end" cars lack grip in S-class. 400hp on 245 tires are gonna be tough to transfer, even with AWD drive-train.
- 1,732
- cuco33
You made a comment about the wheel feeling dead in a straight line. On Nord yes, because Forza's version of it, as mentioned, came from the PGR team which had it very flat. And I've never felt anything in real world cars on the wheel going straight, even on bumps. The car shakes in real life but I don't feel much in the wheel especially in a straight line. I assumed you were referring to the wheel wobble you get in Logitech wheels with GT5.
With FFB, don't consider strength to be the end all be all. GT5's is stronger but with my CSR and settings I feel Forza 4 does a better job. GT5 feels very 'on-off' with it's FFB.
I'm not the only one who feels this way about Laguna Seca, especially between both games. GT5 does not exhibit torque steer so as long as your smooth and don't over shoot it, you can mash the throttle and the car will pull right out of it without issue. Try this in Forza and the ass will kick out of a high powered RWD car, or front wheel drive torque steer will come out to play, or an unbalanced AWD beast will get very squirly. BTW, I'm a massive Laguna Seca fan so I generally use this track in many racers, GT5 and FM4 being no exception. It's not just the physics difference and corkscrew which is different, like I said the main straight leading into turn 1 is very different in both games. There's other differences but of this track these 2 are the most obvious.
I've tried changing ABS to 0 and adjusting the brake balance on many cars. Maybe I haven't found the sweet spot for certain cars in GT5 but braking is terrible if I leave it off. That combined with the fact that, even if damage is set to on, I gain an advantage by redline downshift pinging (no I don't do this, it's a trait that came from previous GT games) without affecting the drivetrain performance puts me off a bit. I'll try what you suggested next time I load up GT5, which might be awhile since the Porsche pack is here and quite frankly... I'm kind of a nut when it comes to Porsche!
But I still like driving in GT5, very much with a wheel and so-so with a pad. In Forza 4 I enjoy driving with both pad and wheel.
- 11,826
- Marin County
Maybe. Maybe not
Cars in stock form seems evenly spread out in the PI range as far as I can tell. Maybe they did a little tinkering on some cars, I don't know, but they would only need to tweak the cars very lightly to make a 504PI car or a 495PI car a 500PI car (for example). I doubt that would explain why you feel the RX8 lack grip in S-class. Many "low-end" cars lack grip in S-class. 400hp on 245 tires are gonna be tough to transfer, even with AWD drive-train.
Again, it's not power-related lack of grip. Steady state. As in steady-constant throttle. Like driving on a skidpad.
We got to stick together being from the NJ 
- 672
- Toulouse
- TheHBK
- HBK Live
I'd be curious to know which cars you think/feel have more grip than your RX8, which weight, which tire width/compound. My experience with the game is that grip levels are quite comparable in similar tire/weight configurations.
RX8 tire upgrades are limited. You won't get as much grip in a car with 275 tires (which sould be about the maximum witdh available for a RX8) than in a car with 300+ tires (which is quite common for supercars).
- 11,826
- Marin County
275 R compound >>>> 300 Street rubber
I'll try to illustrate my point a little better.
The Lotus 2-eleven is one of the funnest cars in the game to me. Razor sharp turn in but at the same time incredibly stable in transitions. It has low weight and small tires. I attempted to recreate the feeling of this car with the MX-5 Superlight. With similar hp/weight ratios and similar weight, with similar tires, I can just never get the MX-5 anywhere near as good as the 2-eleven. I know trying to get an FR car to turn in as quickly as an MR car is fruitless, but it should be as stable or more stable under transitional loads and corner entry. But it always throws the tail out hard on anything but a totally mild corner entry. I even maxed out front bump and rear rebound in a semi-successful quest to reduce fore-aft weight transfer, maxed out the front sway bar, toe-in the rear tires an alarming amount, and it still loves to throw the ass out under corner entry. It's remarkably stable under corner exit on full power...it just sucks at corner entry!
I feel this is a common problem cars in Forza. Overly dramatic oversteer. I drive a Mazda2 every day, and it has never once stepped out as dramatically as it does easily in Forza. I dodged a possum one night and I felt the back start talking to me, but it was ever so slightly. Mind you this was a stupid manuveur under hard braking that would have killed me if I was in an old 911. I also have a GSL-SE RX-7 and it is not nearly as lively under power as it is in Forza. I can get it sideways, but you really have to throw it around for it to happen. It simply isn't powerful enough for power oversteer. Not the case in FM4, you ca powerdrift all day long in the game.
I think people play GT5 and the cars feel a bit 'safe' and that comes across as unrealistic, whereas the cars in FM4 dance all over the place which I suppose feels real to some people. Most street cars are setup to understeer at the limit, not oversteer. No car understeers at the limit in FM4. Understeer doesn't exist in the FM lexicon.
- 672
- Toulouse
- TheHBK
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@ Eunos_Cosmo
Well, you're comparing an ultralight MR with native aero with a light FR most likely lacking rigidity. No doubt they won't handle the same. Also, keep in mind that even if race compounds give you more grip, they are so much more twitchy around the grip limit.
Well, you're comparing an ultralight MR with native aero with a light FR most likely lacking rigidity. No doubt they won't handle the same. Also, keep in mind that even if race compounds give you more grip, they are so much more twitchy around the grip limit.
- 674
- M.I.A
I've never ever, ever, ever had this happen to me is a stock car.
These rollovers (and most ill-handling issues) are usually the fault of the crappy stock tuning settings the game gives you after you've used 'race part' upgrades in the handling section. The default settings are way off and too stiff. For example; ARB's are usually more than 3 to 4 times stiffer than what they should be, and the spring rates nearly always need adjustment, the results of this are default tuned cars that are super twitchy and don't absorb bumps/kerbs and car roll over. Race Differentals usually have a default setting of 75% accel and decel no matter what car, obviously in the tuning world one size doesn't fit all, so bolting stuff on doesn't usually have the desired effect, you will have to fettle.
You say stock cars? Are these cars you have won from career mode? I don't know if you know this but these car are automatically upgraded to top of their class, possibly some have badly tuned race suspension component. You need to reset the car to stock spec manually.
That said, if you have an example of a car that does rollover and is stock I'd love to test that car.
You cant get a stock car, throw as much at it as possible, extra BHP turbo race rubber etc etc and just expect it to be like 'a race car'...that isnt real life.....
too many seem to tune up a car willy nilly, then just blame Turn 10 when it dosent handle.....
Im no tuning expert so just basically tune for fun but i have ruined cars in the process....once i get a proper tune from store front, well some of these are just beyond awesome.....
So yeah just be careful its not your rubbish tuning thats at fault before throwing mud at turn 10s creations....
too many seem to tune up a car willy nilly, then just blame Turn 10 when it dosent handle.....
Im no tuning expert so just basically tune for fun but i have ruined cars in the process....once i get a proper tune from store front, well some of these are just beyond awesome.....
So yeah just be careful its not your rubbish tuning thats at fault before throwing mud at turn 10s creations....
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
However unless you fit the two to identical cars you are not making a valid comparison, too many variables exist when you take two different tyre stock and fit them to two different cars.
You will never ever get an MX-5 to handle like a 2-eleven, its simply not going to happen, not a massive surprise given how totally different the cars are.
Your tuning approach also seems to show the traits of someone familiar with GT tuning, which offers very limited ranges of adjustability, FM4 (while still not good enough) offers a much wider range and as such extreme settings like this just will not result in a stable car at all.
I'm more than happy to look at them for you, could you post up exactly how you have set the MX5 up, parts and settings.
FM4 does have too little grip on stock rubber(that's quite widely acknowledged), its still has more than GT5 does, but its not quite enough. However I disagree that its a wild oversteer fest, yes the rear can get lively but that is not a major disconnect from how cars feel on track (which given that they are almost always far wider than public roads result in much higher forces on the car). I've driven cars that are very benign under road circumstances, because you simply can get close to the limit become shockingly aggressive on track, simply because of the much higher speeds and resulting forces.
Odd because I've come across plenty of understeer in FM4, giving the 2.7 RS from the new pack a run last night it will understeer if you try and take a corner too fast, snapping to oversteer if you then lift. Very close to how the car should react.
- 24
I agree that the experience you described is pretty awesome (the best in GT5) and it cannot be replicated in Forza 4 to the same degree!
My opinion is that hot lapping or time-trials in GT5 is still superior to F4. That is due to the handling feel and visuals being preferable to me in GT5.
That being said, I think F4 has surpassed GT5 in many features and has closed the gap in the areas where GT5 still leads. PD need to get their game on for the next round-- particularly in areas like sound, AI and flexibility in setting up races with the AI. No doubt F5 will be a launch or close to launch title for the Xbox 720 and at the rate Turn 10 is progressing, the GT series could be left behind across the board if PD aren't diligent in some of the areas that have lagged for years.
I have owned and driven on track, at or close to the limit, multiple sports cars in the games. No, they weren't the high end ones like Ferraris
Although I have driven one 500 hp+ car at the track that is in F4 though-- I did not own it however.These games have far too many cars in them to get all the feel nuances exactly accurate for every car. Still, they do a nice job getting the basic handling characteristics accurate. Sims don't have g-force so we'll always be missing that significant driver input but with a good wheel set up I think these titles do a pretty good job with the overall feel based upon my experience. Some are better than others -- by that I mean sim titles and individual cars in the sims-- but overall, for $60 (plus hardware), there isn't too much to complain about!
If you haven't bought a decent wheel/pedals yet for simracing... you really need to find someone who has one and try it out. It doesn't make it perfectly like real life but it does make it completely different (and better)than a gamepad
Scaff
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- ScaffUK
For me FM4 has more than surpassed GT5 and PD have a lot of work to do if they wish to retain me as a customer for GT6 (and Sony in turn with regard to the PS4).
The GT series, which I have bought every version on the day of release and was the reason I bought a PS2 and a PS3, and to be honest GT5
looked as if all was heading in the right direction. The final product however fell short of what I had expected and while the updates have done a lot to turn that around, they still have not done enough.In contrast FM1 to FM3 were late purchases for me and while enjoyable were not a reason to look away from GT. The mess that is GT5 and the final product that is FM4 was enough for me to find a new home. Its odd as well given that I can ignore a lot of the issues with GT5, standards don't bother me that much, rubbish menus and AI have always been a GT staple. However the lack of development in regard to the tyre and suspension modelling, combined with the failure to lock the frame rate (and the frame rate issues with night and rain) and the mess that tuning has become are just not good enough. Oh and don't even get me started as to why the physics are different on and off time.
In contrast the work T10 have done with the physics in FM4 moved things on a long way from FM3, while adding in a bigger grid on and off-line and locking the frame rate at 60fps. A better selection of cars (for me) with a wider range of parts and greater adjustments within tuning (and tuning that actually worked from the word go).
As things stand now the only area I personally see GT5 being ahead in is simply sales numbers, a situation that I believe has caused them to loose focus on what for many is vital to a sim title. As it stands now the have already effectively lost one customer and I'm sure I'm not alone.
- 479
This exactly how I felt when I started forza4. I've played GT5 since launch and forza was just strange. However, that feeling has flipped 180*. Now when going back to GT for the academy trials, I just chuckle. The handling feel and visuals you speak of, are just not there for me. The car and road have a visual disconnect in my opinion.
