Forza 5 on 360 or Next-Gen Xbox?

[Fastback06]

Good choice on picking up a 360 you will no don't enjoy playing F4 and even pick up FH to keep you going to next gen consoles come out with F5. I see no reason for F5 to be on 360 and believe that is why FH is coming out to keep us busy with that and updated F4 dlc till then. Have fun

 

[imported_JaboFu]

No. There will still be allot of things that will most likely happen at E3 that will cause them to make some changes to the console. Just look at the Wii U. was shown last year but not coming out until the end of this year.

I have to really disagree with you there. Nintendo is a completely different story. They do their own business and they dont care about MS or Sony.

Next year they will bring the next Xbox definetly. MS and Sony didnt showed anything this year to not stop the customers buying their current consoles. Especially around the christmas time they dont want to lose sales.

MS and Sony get pressure from all sides. Publishers and Developers are crying for a new hardware. Several high ranking people in the business already said that the new consoles come next year. They just dont have another year.

And I am not so sure, if the fanatec wheels will work on the next xbox. Xbox 1 hardware was fully excluded from the 360-party. It would be strange, if they change that witht he next one. As a GT2 owner thise would be bad for myself, but that is the problem with consoles. If they add additional standards to the new controller, like new buttons, then you can be sure to not see them supported. Just my guess, but that is Microsoft.

The final hardware specs might already be finished or nearly finished by now. 2013 is the year.

 

[Doc Savage NDMF]

I don't know just how much OS wise consoles will change, but hardware wise I can see them changing quite a bit. The trend to Solid State drives and games on cards with a "write to" ability to log and store owner/serial #/ID purposes instead of HDD and Disc moving parts is within reach as SSD's have finally come down into realistic price ranges.

In my mind both Next Gen Console agendas will be two fold...

One is to get rid of the moving parts that fail just as much as it is about new chips or architecture.

The PS could have a larger RAM chip tomorrow if they wanted it and they could utilize the same mounting it currently uses. They've already made internal changes that have dropped the heat output on my newest machine by 50% over the old one sitting next to it. Given they already update via net connection, as do most of the games, it would not be a huge undertaking to add some code and allow the OS and games to use a larger amount of RAM compared to a whole new console or OS.

But as said in a post above, they will want to milk the snot out of this coming holiday season. SONY has applied for approval of a new cheaper console to be brought in with what appears to be a simpler disc system (...a sliding door...ooh...) and I doubt it has any greater functionality over current models. It's simply to drop the price point and make one last big bang in stores before going to the next platform.

Moving to SSD and Cards will cut down on the drive failures and disc failures have been the Achilles's heal of consoles more so than anything else, whether heat induced or just plain wear and tear. It won't eliminate them, and I'm sure there will be some new problem that appears that wasn't accounted for, but it should at least reduce one of the biggest causes of failures for both systems.

The second is to initiate an active system to stop game piracy and get a slice of used game sales.

With the HD going SSD, might as well go that way with the games too. Thumb drives are ridiculously cheap now, and SSD's are affordable. There's a happy medium to hold a game in there somewhere.

Using a solid state card for a game with a small write space to authenticate and track a game by serial number with user ID info on the media itself will help with that in a big way. You wouldn't be able to copy that card once it was written to, as a specific game copy would be tied to a specific user.

The biggest complaint so far has been from used game stores and people who buy them... But with most games having an online component, "buying" a new serial number and ID wouldn't be difficult so long as the write part of the card allowed for "updates", or had the ability to keep multiple verification numbers and ID, an electronic paper trail as it were. It would make sense to allow a customer to by a new number and ID, though whether or not that would save them any money over buying a new copy would be a sticky point for sure. Even to have it be a store level only capability to erase or strip a game's ID to sell used would allow for both the store and the publisher to cash in on a 2nd hand game.

As it would still allow for used game sales, it *could* be an incentive to offer a reduced price to "reactivate" the game with a new number, but this time around the publisher would get a cut of the action, something they'd howl at the moon for right now. If it's a case of wanting to charge full price for a used card, well that's just stupid. Which means EA or someone like them will definitely try it...

The real big reason for the change is it would be a decent deterrent to copying games, as numbers and ID's would be controllable on the publisher side. Even if you able to copy a game, you wouldn't be able to use it unless you bought another license... That's the real reason they want to get away from discs. Everything else is added bonus, it's the loss in initial revenue from game piracy they really want.

I wonder how long it takes for someone to figure out how to beat that system, and whether it will take a SONY type move like the one that triggered the "not work" meltdown before someone tries.

Aside from some small changes to accommodate a write to a game card, the rest of the actual platform OS changes could be as little as streamlining performance, allowing for the extra speed and some extra RAM.

If that's the case, controllers and wheels shouldn't have many issues being compatible. As most company mandates include trying not to spend money if you don't have to, I don't see companies making new buttons or changing the OS much other than to account for and take advantage of the hardware and the speed, and maybe to make the "Wii" wanna be controllers like Kinect work better.

Of course we are talking about MS and SONY, neither of whom seem able to keep things as simple as they could be...

So I guess this all has to be taken with a grain of salt substitute, and you have to allow for the both of them to make this a lot more complicated than it will have to be, only to scale it back in a year or two to what it should have been to start with...

 

[Dopplegagger]

Well, despite them not looking very great, GT5's rain effects are pretty technically brilliant. The rain drops actually have mass and move about on the windscreen. In the F1 games and PGR, it's simply a pre-baked, visual effect. For instance, if you stop your car in PGR4, the rain will continue to streak across the windshield...which is odd. If the resolution of the rain on GT5 was increased, it would look absolutely fantastic and real.

Nothing wrong with the pre-baked visual effect because this generation of hardware doesn't have the resources to burn on doing a realistic rain effect. As long as the math is right and the visual is convincing, even if there are obvious corners cut, fluids having a predetermined pattern is excusable.

But is another reason to put FM5 on the next generation of hardware. Along with having more resources to do the "effects" that many fans seem to beg for, like smoke, dust, dirt, mud, rain, snow, changing time of day, changing cloud covering, projected light, and silky smooth 60fps; while still keeping the physics and improving on the damage models. Perhaps the next version of Forza will lose the predetermined crash results and instate a real time crash engine like whats seen in the CRY3 engine development videos.

(Thinking out loud)

 

[imported_SuperCobraJet]

Since it's almost set in stone that the next generation will start in 2013,

While this is the publicised intention, I'm not convinced it will happen.
At least in 2013.

New consoles are a losing proposition, that count on a certain amount of sales in a given time frame, to recoup console losses on game sales.

Like most sectors of the economy worldwide, game sales are slow, and future forecasts are not very sunny.
In that enviroment, I'm not sure it will be justified from a business standpoint.

Microsoft may take the plunge anyway, since their early release of the 360, such as it was, helped them take the lead from Sony and level the playing field.
If economic forecasts brighten as we get into next year they probably will go ahead as planned, but its a very iffy proposition right now.

Depending on how this plays out, FM5 could be delayed, or released on the 360.

 

[IceMan PJN]

Well, despite them not looking very great, GT5's rain effects are pretty technically brilliant. The rain drops actually have mass and move about on the windscreen. In the F1 games and PGR, it's simply a pre-baked, visual effect. For instance, if you stop your car in PGR4, the rain will continue to streak across the windshield...which is odd. If the resolution of the rain on GT5 was increased, it would look absolutely fantastic and real.

But GT5's rain is still some of the worst-looking of the generation. Regardless of whatever.physics and calculations might be behind it, if still looks last-gen. I'll take Codemasters weather any day.

 

[Corsa]

Forza 5, 720
GT6 PS3

I recently took the plunge, so I sincerely understand the investment.
I never buy used electronics, too risky IMHO.

250GB Slim $300
CSR Elite $540
G27 Pedal Adapter $20
FM4 $50

With tax and shipping I came in just under a grand.

My thoughts? Now I have 2 great consoles with 2 killer Sims and a wheel that can do it all.
Take the plunge, if you can't afford it put it on the Visa!

 

[saskman1950]

I agree with the notion of SSD. I've been an electronics technician for 30 years and it's been my dream that the sooner we get rid of moving parts the better. Maybe that's why I didn't care who won the BluRay race.

My kids download games all the time to their desktops..So why not with the XBox? If you have an ethernet connection or WIFI...it's a slam dunk.

 

[Doc Savage NDMF]

@ BED..: I don't like DL games, unless I can hard copy them. SSD will allow games to be carts like the Nintendo days, but will allow for updates and serial number identifiers to be placed on the game carrying cart itself as opposed to a read only set up like disc or the old carts.

Even if all the cart has is that info and the rest is DL'd and then stored on the cart or in the machine, at least I have something that proves I bought it. Too many fly by night titles and companies changing hands or closing doors and too many times a game's "online" support for play goes away too quickly to not at least have a working, single player copy in my hands.

@ Iceman..: I feel GT5's rain actually sucks. It doesn't look all that great, and it's more like Icecapades than anything else. That and the tire models aren't terribly good. Funny part is they tend to act just like Forza's tires all the time, so it's an advantage to run in the rain over there. I feel right at home now having gotten used to Forza's "traction on, traction off" karate kid derived tire physics.

One thing they do get decent is the visibility from the driver's perspective... Which is basically zilch. They do the snow much better, that's some fun to be in. When chasing a pack it looks like the Tasmanian devil is ahead of you with a couple names over the top. All you see is a big white cloud with pieces of car popping in and out. Funny as the hot place.

@XXI..: I did basically the same thing. An X Box, a CSR wheel w/ the elite pedal combo pack and Forza. I only did racing games way back, mostly older PC titles and living off of GT1-4. I finally got into Forza 3 on the son's X Box when they released the final version with all the DLC and what not.

I then got a new PS3 and GT5 for Christmas in 2010, and picked up a DFGT wheel. It was nice...

But when F4 hit, I got my own X Box and preordered. I already had a Carp wheel, but when it died I went the CSR route for the same reason you did. It simply made no sense to get another garbage wheel for F4 and have to swap anytime I changed platforms. That I can do all three with a single unit now instead of having to set up 3 different race stations is a huge plus, but that it's a GREAT unit just makes it even better.

The CSR made Forza a much better drive for me, as the cheapy wheel was marginal at best and I can't use the controller. It works very well on the PS3 too, I like it much more than the DFGT I had. The load cell brake on the pedal set is huge. What a difference. I can run no ABS in both games with no lock up issues and the ability to adjust pressure between cars with the pot on the cell is very handy indeed.

My head prevents me from driving too much, but when I can drive and feel a single wheel on a car break lose, or save a car because of the superior sensitivity and feed back of the wheel, I can only imagine the grin on the faces of those that can fully utilize the capabilities of CSR's set up. It was definitely worth the price of admission for me for Forza alone. That it made GT5 better too was just a bonus.

Anyone going this route will not be disappointed if they have any sort of driving passion at all.
__

 

[imported_JaboFu]

I agree with the notion of SSD. I've been an electronics technician for 30 years and it's been my dream that the sooner we get rid of moving parts the better. Maybe that's why I didn't care who won the BluRay race.

My kids download games all the time to their desktops..So why not with the XBox? If you have an ethernet connection or WIFI...it's a slam dunk.

Oh right, lets start going download only everywhere! There are too many people in the business of creating the disks, deliverying the disks, selling and reselling the disks. So yeah, let millions around the world lose their job, just so the lazies can download their games at home. The money would go directly to the big boys and everyone else gets nothing. For the same reason, we still use oil in our cars and that also wont change too fast.

The next console generation will come with a disk system, well probably blu-ray, but it will not be download only.

I think the biggest new feature of FM 5 might be weather. They already looked into this topic while developing FM 2. Turn 10 only implement a feature when it works and when the right time is there. Graphics and weather will be the big arguments for buying FM 5 and the next xbox. I am waiting for it!

 

[interpolfan11]

Oh right, lets start going download only everywhere! There are too many people in the business of creating the disks, deliverying the disks, selling and reselling the disks. So yeah, let millions around the world lose their job, just so the lazies can download their games at home. The money would go directly to the big boys and everyone else gets nothing. For the same reason, we still use oil in our cars and that also wont change too fast.

The next console generation will come with a disk system, well probably blu-ray, but it will not be download only.

Pretty much this ^

Also, I like buying used games, and an SSD system would probably slowly kill that part of the market.

 

[Doc Savage NDMF]

Pretty much this ^

Also, I like buying used games, and an SSD system would probably slowly kill that part of the market.

I would have to disagree... What it would do is allow the game companies to make $$ off of the used game sales. That could hurt initially, but the smart companies will quickly realize there's a huge untapped market out there, and I'd bet $$ more than a few of them will be more than accommodating to supporting used game sales.

That's the point of an SSD game cart or card. It would allow the game to be legit registered, and with a little foresight, enable game designers to allow for a change of ownership at a reduced cost to the 2nd hand purchaser while still allowing that person to access any special or bonus features.

The #1 reason consoles fail is moving parts. Anything they can do to eliminate their #1 headache is a natural progression in the console development process. Keeping a disc reader in an SSD HD machine is sort of defeating the purpose.

If they use an SSD card for the game, the SSD machine side can be smaller, ie more profitable for the console maker and cheaper for the gamer, and still take advantage of the speed from the SSD transfer rates. The game can stay right on the card and not have to be on the HD at all. I can even see game saves kept on card depending on the game.

When you throw in the added anti piracy measures an SSD card that holds a game's contents would afford the developer by being able to write the serial and user data to the card, it's a no brainer from any game publisher's point of view.

-Gamers get a more dependable console with fast load times and the ability to still purchase 2nd hand games...
-People making discs, whether in the developed world for big bucks or in 3rd world countries for 50 cents an hour will still get paid to make SSD cards or carts with game content instead.
-Game publishers will get a slice of 2nd and 3rd hand purchases AND have a real means of preventing pirated copies being made and used...
-Console sellers will get to cut their refurb/return rate by 1/2 at the worst, and by as much as 80% once all the bugs are worked out.

That's economics 101, and for once there's actually a potential upside for the gamer for a change.

It may seem the gamer is going to get shafted, but the lure of 2nd hand money will drive developers into the niche market. The fact a gamer will have the ability to register a game as if bought new means they'll have a complete game instead of one that has content you can't use because it was registered already. That in and of itself is a decent enough reason.

No one wants to upset the 2nd hand game apple cart.
They just want a piece of the $$ it generates.

I really don't see them trying to kill the 2nd hand golden goose just yet, especially if one or two companies get really aggressive with 2nd hand pricing and make it worth a gamer's while to hunt the 2nd hand shelf. The value of trade in games will go up, as the retailer will know they can sell the game without it being crippled. It will also reward companies that make Good Games... They'll be able to make better money 2nd hand, and the gamer should be able to get decent trade in. Knowing that ahead of time may even help to bring initial game costs down, as developers know they can still get paid on the 2nd or 3rd go round.

And it sure beats buying a used copy, liking the game and then buying a new copy just to get the extra stuff.

There's the potential to make the 2nd hand market just as viable as the new game market in a way that benefits everyone involved.

Unless you're EA. Then it won't matter at all...

The only downside to all of this is the dependability of the SSD drives used. If companies use the same parts of a drive over and over, it can cause problems. With the speed of the drives, moving the data around to new locations to lengthen the drive life may be something that isn't implemented right away. That could cause some initial problems with the consoles or cards, and is probably why I'll wait a bit before diving into any new console based system.

_

 

[saskman1950]

Oh right, lets start going download only everywhere! There are too many people in the business of creating the disks, deliverying the disks, selling and reselling the disks. So yeah, let millions around the world lose their job, just so the lazies can download their games at home. The money would go directly to the big boys and everyone else gets nothing. For the same reason, we still use oil in our cars and that also wont change too fast.

I'm not one to get into arguments in public....Millions around the world will loose their jobs?? You by your own admission are leaning that way when you said "There are TOO many people in the business"

And what has laziness got to do with downloading?

What is wrong with buying a download??? I suppose you don't don't have ANY Apps / MP3 tunes on your smart phone/Ipod? DID you buy them all??? AND support the millions??? Try putting an Angry Birds disc in your phone....With advent of apps..more people are employed

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I honestly don't believe XBOX360 is powerful enough for what Forza 5 should be.
T10 and MS both know this. I'm in the "Release title for next-gen XBOX" group.

 

[Doc Savage NDMF]

I honestly don't believe XBOX360 is powerful enough for what Forza 5 should be.
T10 and MS both know this. I'm in the "Release title for next-gen XBOX" group.

I'd be inclined to agree.

It'll be interesting to see the trade offs Horizon's has to make to keep the "spirit" of the forza franchise and pull off the night driving and off road stuff.

 

[CTstryk]

I think it will be next gen, when you think about day/night, weather cycles... I know FH has day/night but Forza Motorsport games are a lot bigger, therefore demand more power... so yeah next gen all day.

 

[prymet1me]

Bring on next gen, I have been playing on my pc more and more these days. And please use next gen power for things on the forza wish lists ...especially more tracks.

 

[Dopplegagger]

Bring on next gen, I have been playing on my pc more and more these days. And please use next gen power for things on the forza wish lists ...especially more tracks.

I agree...

But I brace my self for more excuses.

 

[Doc Savage NDMF]

I agree...

But I brace my self for more excuses.

So sad but so true.

They do seem to fix all the unimportant stuff though...

 

[prymet1me]

I agree...

But I brace my self for more excuses.

I wouldn't say excuses, I honestly do feel like they were hardware limited with FM4 as far as technical "pretty" they could have put in the game. They were pretty efficient with the hardware and time table they had to work with, I am just hoping they also feel the way the majority of the community feels about what could reasonably be added to enhance our experience with FM5. The non technical complaints like race length and tracks should be first on their hit list, in my opinion they have their groove with building digital cars. This is not a wish list thread, but I have good expectations for the next FM game, I have not been let down yet. Then again my expectations are reasonable and to my recollection I do not recall T10 making promises that lead to ridiculous expectations.

In the mean time my migration to the pc means its time for some new consoles, the 360 and PS3 are feeling long in the tooth now.

 

[saskman1950]

If Xbox or PSX went to reading SD cards you would be able to put your game system in a children's size 6 shoebox box.
The current Xbox is fast enough now. What makes it slow is having to wait for the hard drive to retrieve data.

 

[Dopplegagger]

I wouldn't say excuses, I honestly do feel like they were hardware limited with FM4 as far as technical "pretty" they could have put in the game. They were pretty efficient with the hardware and time table they had to work with, I am just hoping they also feel the way the majority of the community feels about what could reasonably be added to enhance our experience with FM5. The non technical complaints like race length and tracks should be first on their hit list, in my opinion they have their groove with building digital cars. This is not a wish list thread, but I have good expectations for the next FM game, I have not been let down yet. Then again my expectations are reasonable and to my recollection I do not recall T10 making promises that lead to ridiculous expectations.

In the mean time my migration to the pc means its time for some new consoles, the 360 and PS3 are feeling long in the tooth now.

Well, if they get rid of sticky sand in favor of accurately modeled surfaces, then my check list would be satiated. Yes that includes race ending sand traps.

 

[Corsa]

Well, if they get rid of sticky sand in favor of accurately modeled surfaces, then my check list would be satiated. Yes that includes race ending sand traps.

I remember the first time I hit the sand in 3, I thought what is this?

Desperately needs an overhaul, no more sticky sand. This would also include corner cutting. I would rather have a realistic slide that requires evasive measures, than 150mph to naught in the blink of an eye. Not very realistic.

If the concern is cheating, leave the sticky stuff online only.

 

[Doc Savage NDMF]

I remember the first time I hit the sand in 3, I thought what is this?

Desperately needs an overhaul, no more sticky sand. This would also include corner cutting. I would rather have a realistic slide that requires evasive measures, than 150mph to naught in the blink of an eye. Not very realistic.

If the concern is cheating, leave the sticky stuff online only.

Would also much rather have to deal with sand stuck to the rubber causing "OMG I can't make the turn" syndrome or have to deal with slip sliding away all over for a spell than getting that "virtual broken neck" any day of the week.

Considering they go way overboard with penalties on some corners yet allow you to nearly eliminate others is also an issue.

Apparently the sides of the track are very difficult to keep track of.

It shouldn't be so difficult to use a basic two tires on the grey is OK type model. Even that would be preferable to the randomly assessed exclamations of "oops I did it again" and the insta bog when you least expect it.

At least they aren't alone in this boat. GT5's penalty system also sucks anything related to being round. It'll even penalize you for spinning out... Like the fact you came to a complete stop in the sand wasn't bad enough.

Next head to head between these two is going to be interesting to say the least...

..

 

[mrluckypants]

I agree. In fact I wont buy Forza 5 if it doesnt have weather and night racing. Thats coming from someone thats been a fan of the series since the beginning. Instead of putting one out every 2 years, take extra time and get some weather into the game.

Don't say that, it might turn into GT5, with its 5 year development time.

 

[I'm Motarded]

Don't say that, it might turn into GT5, with its 5 year development time.

Agreed, while he's waiting 5-10 years, I say T10 should put out what ever they have so I don't get bored waiting for something where the final product may or may not be that great for a first effort.

At least we're guaranteed new content, you know what you get in between that wait? Yep, nothing, except more wait.

The forza engine is just getting into it's stride apparently, because it's built to be scalable, the only thing I'm willing to wait for is a brand new engine, and apparently that's not on the horizon, so.... I'll take a few middle builds too while I'm here. Go ahead call me a Forza beta tester, I'll wear that badge with pride

 

[Doc Savage NDMF]

Agreed, while he's waiting 5-10 years, I say T10 should put out what ever they have so I don't get bored waiting for something where the final product may or may not be that great for a first effort.

At least we're guaranteed new content, you know what you get in between that wait? Yep, nothing, except more wait.

The forza engine is just getting into it's stride apparently, because it's built to be scalable, the only thing I'm willing to wait for is a brand new engine, and apparently that's not on the horizon, so.... I'll take a few middle builds too while I'm here. Go ahead call me a Forza beta tester, I'll wear that badge with pride

Who's waiting...? I don't even wait for the bus...

This is just my personal opinion, mind you...

BUT... If 5za's physics are in the same time zone as GT5's...

AND... 5za addresses some of the common complaints I see over and over and over again like more tracks/venues, white rims, removable trim some matte/chrome decal materials and some other types of wheels and such...

There will be no wait for GT6.

I'll be selling my 2 PS3's and getting a next gen Box...

The ONLY way GT6 makes any headway on Forza at this point is if GT wakes up and realizes people want to do their own painting and liveries and really makes a decent, worthwhile effort to make it happen.

Forza played the trump card this round with improved physics, and then stole the show with the Porsche Card.

But then again they also shot themselves in the foot by making stupid little things remain really stupid, irritating little things.

And they STILL haven't done any tracks yet. GT has seen Spa and a full compliment of 4 Motegi tracks, including "Marlington", that lovely egg shaped oval for roundy round fans. They also released the "who cares but they're still counted as tracks" Kart Space and the Test track oval.

Cars are nice. Having somewhere to take them is just as nice. Actually, given the myriad of car choices currently, likely nicer.

The pressure now is all on the GT side of world after their latest lackluster effort...

But it should be noted that even 1/2 trying PD managed to do some respectable track and car DLC. Not nearly as much as one would want, but respectable and fairly rounded for a company that hasn't even tried yet.

And if T10 really wants to, they can still screw it up by not dealing with the huge demand for tracks and better livery options.

Given we're talking the next platform, there should be no excuse for T10 to botch that kind of thing. They should have all the hardware in the world to make it happen.

In all candor, the only thing that will stop T10 is likely T10. Not taking care of gamer concerns is the only thing I can see that messes up T10's chances to take over the Genre outright, and likely a year before a rushed "we still need 8 more years to really finish it" GT6.

One thing we WILL see is which company actually listens to it's gamers.

Right now it's a toss up. Both of them are running business as usual and not addressing the core concerns of their constituents.

Both companies have many ongoing issues that are unresolved. That's something that makes or breaks a title, just ask EA.

I have my appendages crossed T10 gets the wake up call first...

Otherwise I'd not be here in this forum right now.

As stated, this has been just my 2 cents, 1/2 cent after taxes.

Your mileage may vary...