Forza Motorsport 7: General Discussion

[TokoTurismo]

What racing games were you playing in 2006? All the ones I played looked nothing like FM7.

Clearly the guy is either drunk, has a really bad TV, or he's just trolling for the sake of it. I'm gonna go with trolling.

You're right. Most racing games from 2006 actually had 3D looking trees.

I didn't know trees mattered in a track racing game.

 

[ShakesMcQueen]

Clearly the guy is either drunk, has a really bad TV, or he's just trolling for the sake of it. I'm gonna go with trolling.

Maybe he has one of those tube TV sets your grandma owns, that are built into a giant wooden cabinet.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Maybe he has one of those tube TV sets your grandma owns, that are built into a giant wooden cabinet.

You're still using a tube TV and you're playing Xbox One games on it?

 

[Techlet]

I didn't know trees mattered in a track racing game.

I know right? For some reason the devs insist on planting them around the tracks.

 

[RandomCarGuy17]

Tree talk on Forza? Okay then, Forza Motorsport has officially become the new Gran Turismo. There were plenty of obvious signs before, but there was one thing missing; people mentioning flippin' TREES. Now, that's no longer the case!

 

[TokoTurismo]

Maybe he has one of those tube TV sets your grandma owns, that are built into a giant wooden cabinet.

That has to be it. He can't make such a bold claim without actually backing it up. So therefore, this must be what he's using!

I know right? For some reason the devs insist on planting them around the tracks.

I dunno, maybe for that "immersion" or something? Who cares, you're driving fast on tracks anyway.

 

[Silver Arrows]

Trees man.

Not having a fun game, that's silly. It's all about the trees. The Real Tree Simulator. 4K trees.

Trees.

you're really reaching this point of nitpicking, eh. i guess i shouldn't be surprised.

 

[Mr Fahrenheit]

Trees are, like, really important, man. Go visit tree subreddit and you'll see why. No wonder racing gamers are obsessed with it.

 

[Techlet]

I dunno, maybe for that "immersion" or something? Who cares, you're driving fast on tracks anyway.

But...I thought trees don't matter in a track racing game?

 

[Populuxe]

Trees man.

Not having a fun game, that's silly. It's all about the trees. The Real Tree Simulator. 4K trees.

Trees.

I was going to make a similar comment but I was...

Spoiler

tree'd

 

[TokoTurismo]

But...I thought trees don't matter in a track racing game?

I was being sarcastic.

 

[SimTourist]

Trees man.

Not having a fun game, that's silly. It's all about the trees. The Real Tree Simulator. 4K trees.

Trees.

you're really reaching this point of nitpicking, eh. i guess i shouldn't be surprised.

Why make new consoles then and improve the hardware? You can make a fun game on a NES level machine no problem.

 

[ShakesMcQueen]

You're right. Most racing games from 2006 actually had 3D looking trees.

And then lo, one day a genius awoke from his bed in a cold sweat, and declared: "Why are we wasting so much of our limited rendering budget on making the trees three-dimensional in our track-based racing game, when they are both barely looked at to begin with, and a full 3D model would reduce the amount of fine texture detail we could capture in a simple sprite? Couldn't this be better used on more immediate car and environmental/track detail?"

Or at least, that's what I assume happened.

 

[ShakesMcQueen]

Why make new consoles then and improve the hardware? You can make a fun game on a NES level machine no problem.

This is the new NES game I'm playing:

 

[Silver Arrows]

Why make new consoles then and improve the hardware? You can make a fun game on a NES level machine no problem.

Here's the thing - trees are not something that is going to ruin my, or really anybody else's enjoyment, of the game. What matters to me is whether or not the game is fun, and in the case of a racing game, whether the game can maintain a solid frame rate while providing some eye candy to enjoy. (Which FM7 does, in spades)

Trees are the lowest priority thing I can think of when it comes to graphical fidelity. The ability to provide 60 FPS gameplay with weather effects added in is important. ****ing trees are not.

 

[SimTourist]

This is the new NES game I'm playing:

And it looks terrible with unnatural lighting, bad shaders and absent reflections/shadows. And this is what we had in 2006, 13 YEARS ago. Big upgrades, not really.

 

[Techlet]

Here's the thing - trees are not something that is going to ruin my, or really anybody else's enjoyment, of the game. What matters to me is whether or not the game is fun, and in the case of a racing game, whether the game can maintain a solid frame rate while providing some eye candy to enjoy. (Which FM7 does, in spades)

Trees are the lowest priority thing I can think of when it comes to graphical fidelity. The ability to provide 60 FPS gameplay with weather effects added in is important. ****ing trees are not.

Here's the thing - most tracks in the game would have looked better with no 2D cardboard cutout trees at all.

 

[ShakesMcQueen]

And it looks terrible with unnatural lighting, bad shaders and absent reflections/shadows. And this is what we had in 2006, 13 YEARS ago. Big upgrades, not really.

Assuming this is FM2, that game came out in mid-2007, not 2006.

12 years sounds like a lifetime, until you consider that with how console generations work, that means it was just an Xbox 360 game. And yes, actual car models were essentially competent facsimiles of the "real thing" by last generation - though the camera distance in that screenshot obscures the lack of finer details that current gen car models have, due to better scanning techniques, an increased poly count, and better shaders.

The environmental detail in FM2 is hilarious compared to FM7. Yes, some of the basics are comparable (such as those paddocks on the left looking... fine), but textures and shaders are worse. There's less actual density to the detail. You're missing subtle volumetric and alpha effects. There's no weather, with it's own set of effects (such as some gorgeous parallax occlusion mapping when the road is wet, along with more naturally diffuse shadows because of the lack of direct sunlight).

And then there's the more basic points, such as the fact that FM2 ran at 720p60, and FM7 runs at 2160p60 (or a full NINE times the resolution).

If you think FM2 and FM7 look more or less the same, there's nothing I can do.

 

[SimTourist]

If you think FM2 and FM7 look more or less the same, there's nothing I can do.

The lighting is in fact almost the exact same, same pre-baked shadows, same fake reflections running at half rate, AI cars have zero reflections whatsoever, cheap lens flare thrown on top along with cheap screen space god rays that were first introduced in F1 Championship Edition back in that same year of 2006, same aggresive lod system where AI cars have less than 50000 polygons, same plastic shaders despite the switch to PBR, same absense of real-time dynamic shadows, etc. Not to mention the 2D crowds and trees that are embarrasing to have on consoles that can reasonably approximate the look of a Pixar movie. Even in forzavista where you have all the power in the world the cars are polygon edge city.

 

[McLaren]

You can cite they have the same shadows, reflections, etc. etc., and whatever else. It doesn't make whatever this notion that FM2 & FM7 look "the same" sound any less sillier than it already is.

 

[SimTourist]

You can cite they have the same shadows, reflections, etc. etc., and whatever else. It doesn't make whatever this notion that FM2 & FM7 look "the same" sound any less sillier than it already is.

Well, FM2 looks better, so...

 

[TokoTurismo]

Here's the thing - most tracks in the game would have looked better with no 2D cardboard cutout trees at all.

Who cares? Why do you even care about that if you're racing on track? Stop trying to stir up an argument dude. Honestly, people care too much about trees and stupid graphics in racing games, especially in track racers.

And the graphics argument is just a joke of itself. How can one even assume FM7's graphics looks like that of '06's graphics I will never know...

 

[McLaren]

Well, FM2 looks better, so...

It doesn't, but here's the place if you want to find a bubble of close-minded people who would think so.

 

[SimTourist]

It doesn't, but here's the place if you want to find a bubble of close-minded people who would think so.

Call me when FM starts having actual realtime shadow maps, until then it's stuck in 2006 level post-PS2 lighting techniques. A good chunk of PS360 games, and the majority of current-gen games have real-time lighting, not some baked Half Life 2 era lighting.

 

[ShakesMcQueen]

Call me when FM starts having actual realtime shadow maps, until then it's stuck in 2006 level post-PS2 lighting techniques. A good chunk of PS360 games, and the majority of current-gen games have real-time lighting, not some baked Half Life 2 era lighting.

I'm not even sure where to start with the mixture of utter wrongness and absent context here.

Digital Foundry did a nice breakdown months ago, of the various tradeoffs of the approach to visuals between FM7 and GT Sport, and found both had their strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Then again, maybe their eyesight is just way worse than yours.

Anyway, I'm finally tapping out of this utterly tedious discussion. Someone else can pick up the baton if they want.

 

[SimTourist]

I'm not even sure where to start with the mixture of utter wrongness and absent context here.

Digital Foundry did a nice breakdown months ago, of the various tradeoffs of the approach to visuals between FM7 and GT Sport, and found both had their strengths and weaknesses in different areas. Then again, maybe their eyesight is just way worse than yours.

Anyway, I'm finally tapping out of this utterly tedious discussion. Someone else can pick up the baton if they want.

I have to wonder why 90% of games have realtime shadows, might have something to do with being more realistic and dynamic as opposed to those old methods that were popular in the PS2 era when we didn't have enough processing power.

 

[skazz]

Trees man.

Not having a fun game, that's silly. It's all about the trees. The Real Tree Simulator. 4K trees.

Trees.

Richard Burns Rally was the Real Tree Simulator, despite having 2d pixellated trees.

Why do I say this? Because I guarantee everyone who played the game got to see those trees REALLY close up, in many rally-ending ways. It felt like the car was magnetically attracted to trees

 

[Silver Arrows]

Here's the thing - most tracks in the game would have looked better with no 2D cardboard cutout trees at all.

Again - who gives a ****.

If the game had no trees around the track, then chances are you'd complain about the fact that there is no foilage around the track making it look dead. Like a road in the middle of nowhere.

So like every other "complaint" you have, any sort of solution would just lead to you bitching because that's all that you do, and that's what you get off to.

 

[WFO Krypto]

Again - who gives a ****.

So like every other "complaint" you have, any sort of solution would just lead to you bitching because that's all that you do, and that's what you get off to.

DING DING DING DING!!!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!!!!!

 

[turk1993]

I have to wonder why 90% of games have realtime shadows, might have something to do with being more realistic and dynamic as opposed to those old methods that were popular in the PS2 era when we didn't have enough processing power.

Do you also wonder why the shadow quality of those games are bad or flickering constantly? Like you try to point out GTS wich doesn't even have dynamic TOD but has real time shadows for tracks, but the catch is they look worse than Forza's shadows and are constantly flickering. So im asking you, is it better to have dynamic shadows in a game with no real time TOD? And keep in mind that Forza has alot of dynamic shadows like cloud shadows and headlight shadows wich react to the world as well.

Here's the thing - most tracks in the game would have looked better with no 2D cardboard cutout trees at all.

Yes because all the other games have 3d trees