found this curious video of keiichi tsuchiya on gts

[Ofuscor]

Stop projecting dude. I know what I feel & im not here to brag about anything, I’m here to share my own experience and help others where possible - why did you think I shared the ”7/8/2” thing and shared my 458 setup to someone who was asking for a GR.4 458 setup in the drifting-tuning thread...

Here’s another example of the 7 controller sensitivity influencing wheels while you think it doesnt: couple days ago we had daily race C - de la Sarthe gr1: while pushing the R18 to the limit with 7/7/2 as ffb settings I was able to catch oversteer-moments in for example the Porsche curves on worn tyres, I raced again with 0/7/2 and was not able to counter/catch my car in the same Porsche-curves when the same oversteer kicked in. Sensitivity 7 solved this issues imo.

I raced in leagues, when someone asked for wheel setups I never heard anyone say anything about controller sensitivity having any effect on wheels. It wasn't just me. I even googled for people reporting what you are saying and came empty handed.

I'm not convinced, just because you tell me about two times you could and couldn't catch the car with different settings, it is anecdotal evidence. You are not even describing the difference in feeling and I am supposed to be convinced by it? I use 2/4/3 and I still catch the car when it oversteers. so?

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

I like how you set up your cars for drifting, but:

- “EVEN Keichi Tsuchiya ( from Drift Bible ) doesn't use brakes to regain grip - he uses brakes to slow down.”

Do you even realise that by pressing/tapping your brake, your car & wheels slow down and your tyres grip more (spin less) of the surface, so yes, one does get more grip by braking when needed. Tsuchiya would agree on this without a doubt.

Cool to see you can drift the nordschleife - it’s by far my most drifted track since GT5...

I try to drift cars with factory settings around the nordschleife if their bhp is above 400, if factory settings don’t work, I pretty much use the same method of tuning that you described but I do prefer to drift them while they’re stock - my favorite drift car being the RR yellowbird. I miss that car a lot in GTS.

I think you're talking about human ABS.
I know that, but i'm talking about regaining grip when braking in the middle of drift.
Your tires are already hot - which means less traction, so when applying brakes by tapping it in the middle of drift will magically makes it regains grip while it's still hot !?
Isn't it supposed to lose (more) grip when applying brakes in the middle of drift while the tires are still hot ?
Even in drag racing they say :
Applying brakes when the car losses grip on the straight line ( which the rookies usually do that mistake ) rather than leaving throttle will cause accident ( rather than preventing it )
What you had mentioned about regaining grip when braking works on grip racing when braking on a straight line before cornering.

About Nordschleife :
You're incorrect my friend.
I just checked to confirm, and my expectation was on point.
The most drifted tracks are :
1- Tsukuba.
2- Suzuka East.
3- Autumn Ring.
Reminding you - i was talking about GT5/6 days "when i used to drift with more cars."

About drift setup :
Using factory setting is the best way to learn your car weaknesses in drifting.
Then when you want to get rid of the weaknesses - you start applying the setups ( of course )
On the late days of GT5 - i've discovered some cars which are by default - a driftable car without (much) setups which mostly works on low HP cars ( and that's normal ) as an early counter measure for not attempting to apply a complicated setups to save time.

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

To get back on topic about the comparison video, I would like to add more information : The Amuse 86 before having step 1 tune ( upgraded tire ), was already modified to be ready for track driving, Project Mu Racing N+ brake pads and 1 way LSD ( Cusco RS ), Amuse still regard this car as "normal", which I think they meant stock power/weight/suspension/tire. With the 1 way LSD and N+ brake pads, the car managed 1:10.851 after a few laps in the hand sof Tsuchiya-san, still with the crappy ( but quiet+ fuel efficient ) factory Yokohama dB E70 205/55R16 Eco tires that came with Toyota 86 G model.

My previous post about the real car vs game :

Just FYI, the real car 1:07s lap time used in comparison was done on Amuse Step 3 Tune Toyota 86, the Amuse owned car, and when stock was lapping in high 1:10s range. Dori Dori-san did several time attack laps with each progression of tuning, from stock, step 1, step 2 and finally step 3 tuning. Step 1 is Grip/Tire, Step 2 Balance/Suspension, and Step 3 is Speed/Power+Weight. The snapshot in the latest 2018 video was the car in stock condition with factory tire, then when the video shows the best lap time 1:07.172, the car snapshot shown on track already has the Step 1 tune ( tire - bigger+wider+stickier ), along with Amuse Step 2 suspension upgrade, as well as Step 3 weight reduction and power upgrades.

GTS Toyota 86 spec is NOT the same as the 1:07s car IRL which have more power, less weight, better suspension and stickier tire, the girl ( Chochoblanka ) intentionally increase tire grip trying to compensate for the disparity and allow Dori Dori get close/match the lap of the real car he drove. GTS tire grip has also been reduced across the board compared to GT6. SH in GTS would be roughly similar to CS/CM in GT6.
I guess many were not ready for step down of tire grip in GTS.

The real car tire used on the lap also was not clearly listed in the video, the tire upgrade was part of step 1 Amuse tune, sticky Dunlop Direzza Z1 SS tire, wider and bigger at 255/35R18.

The tire used :
https://www.dunloptires.com/en-US/tires/direzza-z1-starspec-tires

It has been discontinued, now what's available is : https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Direzza+ZII+Star+Spec

"The Direzza ZII Star Spec is Dunlop's Extreme Performance Summer tire developed for serious sports car, sports coupe and performance sedan enthusiasts looking for race tire-like traction on the street or for use in autocross, drifting and track events."



The Step 1 alone is good for mid 1:08s lap time, more than 2s improvement.

The comparison was flawed from the beginning.

 

[Amaru]

I think you're talking about human ABS.
I know that, but i'm talking about regaining grip when braking in the middle of drift.
Your tires are already hot - which means less traction, so when applying brakes by tapping it in the middle of drift will magically makes it regains grip while it's still hot !?
Isn't it supposed to lose (more) grip when applying brakes in the middle of drift while the tires are still hot ?
Even in drag racing they say :
Applying brakes when the car losses grip on the straight line ( which the rookies usually do that mistake ) rather than leaving throttle will cause accident ( rather than preventing it )
What you had mentioned about regaining grip when braking works on grip racing when braking on a straight line before cornering.

About Nordschleife :
You're incorrect my friend.
I just checked to confirm, and my expectation was on point.
The most drifted tracks are :
1- Tsukuba.
2- Suzuka East.
3- Autumn Ring.
Reminding you - i was talking about GT5/6 days "when i used to drift with more cars."

About drift setup :
Using factory setting is the best way to learn your car weaknesses in drifting.
Then when you want to get rid of the weaknesses - you start applying the setups ( of course )
On the late days of GT5 - i've discovered some cars which are by default - a driftable car without (much) setups which mostly works on low HP cars ( and that's normal ) as an early counter measure for not attempting to apply a complicated setups to save time.

I completely understand what you mean but I’m talking about tapping the brakes to change the weight distribution across the axles to change direction mid-drift, not braking as in slowing down from 200kmh to 30kmh.

About Nordschleife: you have completely mis-read what I posted: “Cool to see you can drift the nordschleife - it’s by far my most drifted track since GT5...”

Meaning, I have drifted more laps around the nordschleiffe than on any other track.

GT5-wise; I drift any car completely stock on CH tyres if it has over 300bhp

 

[simsimsheree]

It's an interesting comparison to see him need to go to slicks to equal his real time. I recall a GT5 challenge trying to match David Coulthard's real life Top Gear Test Track time in an SLS (IIRC) and you basically had to put CH's on before you were hard pressed to match it.

I think all both of these do is illustrate what utter fantasies we have pretending there's any correlation between real life and a simcade title like Gran Turismo. Or any other, if the truth be known. Computer horsepower just isn't there yet...

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

It's an interesting comparison to see him need to go to slicks to equal his real time. I recall a GT5 challenge trying to match David Coulthard's real life Top Gear Test Track time in an SLS (IIRC) and you basically had to put CH's on before you were hard pressed to match it.

I think all both of these do is illustrate what utter fantasies we have pretending there's any correlation between real life and a simcade title like Gran Turismo. Or any other, if the truth be known. Computer horsepower just isn't there yet...

It's a flawed comparison where the car parameter ( specs ) are not the same between RL and the car in GTS, a more closer comparison would be in GT6 with some adjustments to the power/weight/suspension/LSD and tire. Read my post about the details of the RL car and you see why the girl has to resort to using racing tire on GTS.

To get back on topic about the comparison video, I would like to add more information : The Amuse 86 before having step 1 tune ( upgraded tire ), was already modified to be ready for track driving, Project Mu Racing N+ brake pads and 1 way LSD ( Cusco RS ), Amuse still regard this car as "normal", which I think they meant stock power/weight/suspension/tire. With the 1 way LSD and N+ brake pads, the car managed 1:10.851 after a few laps in the hand sof Tsuchiya-san, still with the crappy ( but quiet+ fuel efficient ) factory Yokohama dB E70 205/55R16 Eco tires that came with Toyota 86 G model.

My previous post about the real car vs game :

Just FYI, the real car 1:07s lap time used in comparison was done on Amuse Step 3 Tune Toyota 86, the Amuse owned car, and when stock was lapping in high 1:10s range. Dori Dori-san did several time attack laps with each progression of tuning, from stock, step 1, step 2 and finally step 3 tuning. Step 1 is Grip/Tire, Step 2 Balance/Suspension, and Step 3 is Speed/Power+Weight. The snapshot in the latest 2018 video was the car in stock condition with factory tire, then when the video shows the best lap time 1:07.172, the car snapshot shown on track already has the Step 1 tune ( tire - bigger+wider+stickier ), along with Amuse Step 2 suspension upgrade, as well as Step 3 weight reduction and power upgrades.

GTS Toyota 86 spec is NOT the same as the 1:07s car IRL which have more power, less weight, better suspension and stickier tire, the girl ( Chochoblanka ) intentionally increase tire grip trying to compensate for the disparity and allow Dori Dori get close/match the lap of the real car he drove. GTS tire grip has also been reduced across the board compared to GT6. SH in GTS would be roughly similar to CS/CM in GT6.
I guess many were not ready for step down of tire grip in GTS.

The real car tire used on the lap also was not clearly listed in the video, the tire upgrade was part of step 1 Amuse tune, sticky Dunlop Direzza Z1 SS tire, wider and bigger at 255/35R18.

The tire used :
https://www.dunloptires.com/en-US/tires/direzza-z1-starspec-tires

It has been discontinued, now what's available is : https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Direzza+ZII+Star+Spec

"The Direzza ZII Star Spec is Dunlop's Extreme Performance Summer tire developed for serious sports car, sports coupe and performance sedan enthusiasts looking for race tire-like traction on the street or for use in autocross, drifting and track events."



The Step 1 alone is good for mid 1:08s lap time, more than 2s improvement.

The comparison was flawed from the beginning.

In GT6, CM tire is enough to bring a stock power/weight GT 86 to reach high 1:08s at Tsukuba driving in similar pace as Tsuchiya-san, similar braking point, lines, gear and speeds. CS tire with accurate power/weight and suspension/LSD tuning in GT6 = 1:07s low, again with similar speeds ( cornering ), braking points, line and pace. How do I know this ? I have done it years ago when still active on my replica GT6 garage. The real life 1:07s lap record on Amuse GT 86 was done 6 years ago.

GTS tire grip have been lower than GT6 even since the Beta phase, and PD seems to be leaning on type C characteristics and the recent update tire model ver 1.23 likely changed it type V. The type C and type V are hidden parameter on the tire, used since GT5 which can be accessed via hybriding/hex edit. Stock tire fitted on GT5/6 cars were using variety of these type of tire and hidden from view. So a stock Ferrari 458 Italia on SH may have SH type C on front and SH type C on rear, while Ferrari F40 on SH may have SH type V front and SH type V rear. ( just an example )

Type C has more bias on cornering/lateral G grip, while type V has more bias on straight line traction/longitudinal G grip as described in the game when they are unlocked via hex/hybrid.

 

[freedom1104]

wanna know why tsuchiya-san cant react to oversteerin GTS? bad forcefeedback from logitech wheel on console (its always bad to use a logitech wheel on console, especially gran turismo, the ffb force is too weak compare to pc ) and real world driver react to oversteer based on their body-sensor, unlike virtual world we depends on visual cue and ffb

 

[Ridox2JZGTE]

Those drifters with controller must have 6th sense as they can only depend on audio and visual cues As for me, I can drive and drift even with sound muted/no sound effect and using only controller relying only on what I can see ( hud, road, car movement ), guess decades of gaming have a hand too. I think Tsuchiya-san rarely play video game and his body and mind are more attuned to real life driving than game due to his decades of motorsport experience.

 

[05XR8]

Throughout the GT franchise, I would tune cars, as close as I could, to Best Motoring specs. PD could never match the real world suspension settings for the tuned cars. Some cars came close, but most were limited by PD's spring rate limit. I think that has much to do with how accurate we can drive these virtual cars.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Throughout the GT franchise, I would tune cars, as close as I could, to Best Motoring specs. PD could never match the real world suspension settings for the tuned cars. Some cars came close, but most were limited by PD's spring rate limit. I think that has much to do with how accurate we can drive these virtual cars.

share!

 

[Felix]

Nice find! Too bad I have no idea what he is saying. Looked like the non-linear throttle caught him by surprise. I'm guessing with his access to real cars and tracks, he doesn't play games too much.

Spoiler

Very cool that she beat his time!

Wow a Street Fighter Pro gamer beats his time

 

[ZEROTHEKNIGHT]

I completely understand what you mean but I’m talking about tapping the brakes to change the weight distribution across the axles to change direction mid-drift, not braking as in slowing down from 200kmh to 30kmh.

About Nordschleife: you have completely mis-read what I posted: “Cool to see you can drift the nordschleife - it’s by far my most drifted track since GT5...”

Meaning, I have drifted more laps around the nordschleiffe than on any other track.

GT5-wise; I drift any car completely stock on CH tyres if it has over 300bhp

I think i skipped ( my ) from your post.
Maybe i was reading it without my glasses X)
Anyway - i also understood your post ( from your last reply )

 

[05XR8]

share!

Watch from 7:10

In GT6, I tuned the blue Spoon S2000 as close to those numbers. Camber I got from the Amuse R1 Titan(orange S2000). During that car's debut run, it ran - 4F/-4.5R. It was commented as being too unstable. Amuse then dialed it back - 3.5F/-4R. I used those numbers for every S2000 I've tuned.

Check the spring rate numbers against the Spoon car.


I'd love to get the R1 Titan and even the RE-Amemiya Touge Monster, in this game, to see if the physics have come closer to the real thing.


Anyway, tyres are crucial, but suspension is just as important.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Watch from 7:10

In GT6, I tuned the blue Spoon S2000 as close to those numbers. Camber I got from the Amuse R1 Titan(orange S2000). During that car's debut run, it ran - 4F/-4.5R. It was commented as being too unstable. Amuse then dialed it back - 3.5F/-4R. I used those numbers for every S2000 I've tuned.

Check the spring rate numbers against the Spoon car.


I'd love to get the R1 Titan and even the RE-Amemiya Touge Monster, in this game, to see if the physics have come closer to the real thing.


Anyway, tyres are crucial, but suspension is just as important.

 

[TrdScionxB2]

the drift king comparing their real lap time with gts

Just letting everyone know, the video now has English subtitles.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

Just letting everyone know, the video now has English subtitles.

It's interesting that the narrator at one part roughly said how doridori has"the same accel, line, and steering pattern as real life" (take that translation with a grain of salt the words just sounded somewhat understandable after years of anime )

Holy mother of cars my translation was correct!!!
Interesting that the 86 handles much closer to the real thing on RS as said by Doridori though. Not that it's all that relevant now with the new tire model though

 

[Grippy]

Holy mother of cars my translation was correct!!!
Interesting that the 86 handles much closer to the real thing on RS as said by Doridori though. Not that it's all that relevant now with the new tire model though

I think it's hugely relevant. Wonder how little the tire model changes. Theres talk of weather implementation.

The girl named Chocoblanka (it is her official Twitter account name by the way) is known as professional E-sport gamer in Japan. Already watched the video and surprised that both final lap times are actually pretty close!

Now I could theorise on why the laps are pretty close.. I don't think it's the realism of the sim at all. GTSport is just not very realistic or "simulation" having a rudimentary implementation of tire physics amongst others.

Bottom line? If you learn how to push maximise the car in the game, he'd beat his real lap by several seconds. Maybe even go sub 1minute. So a 1:07xxx vs a game lap of around 1:01xxx on this short track? That shows you how realistic it is.

But the real telltale is when you see him magically set the time of 1:06 I beleive? Beating his real lap. And that lap he made one of the most horrible exists on the hairpin leading up the back straight. He was trying to Correcting that would've shaved off another second.

Finally, the weird excessive oversteer/understeer he first experienced on SH tyres is another thing that bothers realism. As he said "who spins on that turn". The transition from grip to slip is very poor in some situations like that and ruins the fun to be had on the default setting.

 

[05XR8]

I think it's hugely relevant. Wonder how little the tire model changes. Theres talk of weather implementation.



Now I could theorise on why the laps are pretty close.. I don't think it's the realism of the sim at all. GTSport is just not very realistic or "simulation" having a rudimentary implementation of tire physics amongst others.

Bottom line? If you learn how to push maximise the car in the game, he'd beat his real lap by several seconds. Maybe even go sub 1minute. So a 1:07xxx vs a game lap of around 1:01xxx on this short track? That shows you how realistic it is.

But the real telltale is when you see him magically set the time of 1:06 I beleive? Beating his real lap. And that lap he made one of the most horrible exists on the hairpin leading up the back straight. He was trying to Correcting that would've shaved off another second.

Finally, the weird excessive oversteer/understeer he first experienced on SH tyres is another thing that bothers realism. As he said "who spins on that turn". The transition from grip to slip is very poor in some situations like that and ruins the fun to be had on the default setting.

PD pretty much dil in the ice skate tyres since GT1. Once slicks are slapped on, then we get the grip, in a sense, we should have on road tyres.

 

[Grippy]

In a sense! some cars can apparently do better launches. changes should help cars such as the supra wheelspinning at 100kmh, but I haven't tested it myself